Author Topic: Road geo  (Read 460 times)

Offline colesey

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Road geo
« on: July 07, 2017, 06:42:17 PM »
What sort of neg camber and toe in do people like for road use? I already have the VWR sports dampers/springs and will be having some H&R arbs (26/22) and superpro LCA / ball joints fitted next week.  Am looking for pointy / responsive steering and neutral overall balance ie minimal understeer and minimal lift off understeer (bad memories of a 205 GTI 1.9 25 years ago......)

Offline Pudding

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Re: Road geo
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 10:09:25 AM »
I wouldn't go any more than -1.5 at the front personally, for road use.  -1.25 is a good compromise between tyre life and cornering feel/grip.  Although if we are both experiencing rubbing at the front with our VWR kits, perhaps more neg camber will tuck the wheel in enough to fix that.....as will your stiffer front ARB  :smiley:

Maybe consider the Ground Control top mounts too, to get the geometry spot on and improve feel.  You'll probably get a bit of rumbling noises through the bodyshell at low speeds but otherwise they're fine for daily use.  And goes without saying - do the Tyrolsport dead set as well.

I've reached that "One mod necessitates another" turning point as well.  The VWR kit is a great setup for daily use, but when pushed it quickly loses the plot.  It's just too soft past 7/10ths driving, and not enough travel on bumpy B roads either.  Hence why I'm investigating coilovers so I can tune the spring rates.....a bit more rate at the back instead of fat ARBs.

I have bad memories too, having done all this before on previous cars.   It makes the car less predictable in the long term.  99% of the time you will feel more confident with the new settings/parts, and then out of the blue it will behave erratically.  I lost my Corrado on a wet roundabout due to messing with the suspension  :grin:  I fitted a bigger rear ARB, and left the front one stock.  What happened was exactly what racing experts said would happen, but in my yoof I was like: "What evs, what do they know, I am king of the road" and sure enough, the car pirouetted elegantly in front of people on their way to Sainsburys.  Very embarrassing  :grin:

So yeah, I'm glad you are doing both ARBs and not just one!!  Understeer is a much, much easier to deal with on the road than snap oversteer.
Black Edition 30 with manually selected cogs, a beefier clutch, some extra boost and them Whiteline thingies, otherwise standard.

Offline colesey

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Re: Road geo
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 01:17:25 PM »
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Pudding and I'll post an update here in a week or two.  I should have the garage tuck in the arch liners / remove screw whilst they have things apart.

Offline Pudding

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Re: Road geo
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2017, 01:58:13 PM »
Weird thing is I haven't seen any witness marks under there, so not sure what it's catching on! 
Black Edition 30 with manually selected cogs, a beefier clutch, some extra boost and them Whiteline thingies, otherwise standard.

Offline colesey

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Re: Road geo
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2017, 02:25:17 PM »
Back from the geo session and ended up going with 1.6 degrees of camber on front but left the rear unchanged at 1.9.  Dialed in a fair bit of toe out  ( 8 / 15 mins, respectively) upon the recommendation of my Superpro supplier. Early days yet but it felt good on the short drive back from garage, though time and extended use will confirm a fuller picture.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 09:02:14 AM by colesey »

Offline colesey

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Re: Road geo
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2017, 10:18:45 AM »
@Pudding - no more arch rubbing after the H&R arbs / liner screw mod / extra neg camber. 

Fwiw the smaller H&R bars work very nicely in combo with the VWR sports dampers / springs, stiffening it up a notch overall whilst maintaining decent suspension compliance on bumpy roads. As you might expect, the chassis feels more balanced from front to rear whilst the freshly greased superpro bushes track the road surface more responsively. The modest reduction in unsprung weight may also help in this regard and I will be looking into lighter weight wheels / BBK / hubs as my next experiment.

Offline xjay1337

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Re: Road geo
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2017, 10:24:46 AM »
I run -2.6 front and -2 rear

I have a track alignment from Alex @ AKS Tuning.

Offline colesey

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Re: Road geo
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2017, 10:33:58 AM »
Thanks for sharing XJAY. More camber makes perfect sense for track use. Any idea what sort of toe numbers you are using?

Offline Pudding

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Re: Road geo
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2017, 10:38:26 AM »
@Pudding - no more arch rubbing after the H&R arbs / liner screw mod / extra neg camber. 

Fwiw the smaller H&R bars work very nicely in combo with the VWR sports dampers / springs, stiffening it up a notch overall whilst maintaining decent suspension compliance on bumpy roads. As you might expect, the chassis feels more balanced from front to rear whilst the freshly greased superpro bushes track the road surface more responsively. The modest reduction in unsprung weight may also help in this regard and I will be looking into lighter weight wheels / BBK / hubs as my next experiment.

That's good to know mate, thank you.  Which size ARBs did you go for?  I'm tempted by the SuperPro BJs too!
Black Edition 30 with manually selected cogs, a beefier clutch, some extra boost and them Whiteline thingies, otherwise standard.

Offline colesey

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Re: Road geo
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2017, 10:54:20 AM »
I got the 26/22 H&R bars, set up soft front / hard rear. The superpro ball joints came (promptly) from TDC Automotive and Ross there was very helpful with the geo recommendations  :happy2:

Offline Pudding

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Re: Road geo
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2017, 11:42:17 AM »
Thanks mate!  I re-read your original post afterwards and got the sizes  :grin:

I'm at AKS tomorrow, so I'll see if he has any of these goodies in stock  :smiley:

Did you fit the ARBs yourself?  I think the rear you can do easily on stands, but the subframe has to come down to do the front one?

Black Edition 30 with manually selected cogs, a beefier clutch, some extra boost and them Whiteline thingies, otherwise standard.

Offline colesey

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Re: Road geo
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2017, 04:26:04 PM »
Did you fit the ARBs yourself?  I think the rear you can do easily on stands, but the subframe has to come down to do the front one?

No, I had it done by a local mechanic - great guy who runs a seriously quick Mk2 Escort with a Millington Diamond & sequential box. You're right about the subframe coming down, so no excuse not to do those super pro ball joints and a full geo at the same time!

Offline xjay1337

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Re: Road geo
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2017, 10:45:48 AM »
Thanks for sharing XJAY. More camber makes perfect sense for track use. Any idea what sort of toe numbers you are using?

I will check my alignment sheet.