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Author Topic: Most power made on a standerd ko4  (Read 17013 times)

Offline Pesky jones

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2018, 11:49:09 am »
I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.

I havent seen many forge for 350/350. I personally think a K04 can and has produced 400/400+ figures. I'd forge for that.

Offline Shoduchi

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2018, 12:11:23 pm »
I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.

I havent seen many forge for 350/350. I personally think a K04 can and has produced 400/400+ figures. I'd forge for that.

350/350 with caped low range torque won't need forging, yeah. Just for top numbers the forged internals would be very advisable. :smiley:

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2018, 12:14:54 pm »
400hp with some creative coast down calculations, or 350hp measured properly on an industry standard bench tester.
...Unless a good, tfsi knowledgeable tuner tunes it to 400bhp. Then it will be 400bhp on the bench tester.

Would you put a tenner on that?   I can guarantee an engine showing 400hp on a rolling road would not measure even close to that on VW's factory bench tester.

Fair play. Not going to disagree - just didnt know whether you were including claims of 400 by good tuners in the statement. So presumably your day in day out stage 2+ 350/350 (not pushed to the absolute limit) is actually nowhere near that either?

Also that statement leads to the assumption that the inaccuracy is exponential as you go up, as stock cars on the dyno make stock figures.

I just go by science and experience mate.  It's not an attempt to discredit tuners. You can only do so much with the standard engine configuration.

To make a genuine 400hp at the standard rev limit, you would have to shove about 2.4-2.6 bar of boost into it from a KO4 sized turbo.  A KO4 cannot make 2.6 bar for long without grenading itself.  Even pushing it to the usual 1.8 - 2 bar Stage 2+ pressure levels, it's waaaaaaay out of it's efficiency zone and merely super heating the intercooler.  Hence why even with an S3 intercooler, after 4 hard WOT pulls the timing starts getting backed off.  It's not a crap intercooler, it's the turbo.  It's too small.

A genuine 400hp might be achievable if you hogged out the head ports, ported the manifolds, fitted bigger valves, wilder cams and revved it to 8000rpm.....but even then, the more times you run it flat out, the power will start to reduce. And the balancer shafts will sh*t themselves.

Consistency is the name of the game, not an arbitrary peak number which is entirely questionable in the first place.

400hp with a big turbo, then absolutely.  With a K04, no way.   

Direct injection does have some power advantages, but not to THAT degree.   Not even the Focus RS can comfortably do 400hp with it's 300cc bigger engine, and they are cracking blocks and blowing gaskets at standard power, let alone tuned, so you have to use common sense really.  VW did not build 400hp worth of headroom into the EA113.  There is zero financial incentive for them to over build and engine to that degree.  I mean, look what they did to the BYD/S3 engine to run just 30-60hp more than the AXX.  That's a lot of mechanical changes for a small increase.

350 is a sensible and realistic expectation from a KO4 with all the bolt ons running 2 bar peak, holding 1.5.   You could potentially get a moment of greatness with a whopping great 2.2-2.3 bar 400lbft boost spike, but as you say, that amount of cylinder pressure can and does indeed smash people's pistons.  Loads of evidence of that on the facebook group.




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Offline Pesky jones

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2018, 12:17:57 pm »
I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.

I havent seen many forge for 350/350. I personally think a K04 can and has produced 400/400+ figures. I'd forge for that.

350/350 with caped low range torque won't need forging, yeah. Just for top numbers the forged internals would be very advisable. :smiley:

You just agreed top numbers were 350/350 for a k04?  :laugh:

Offline Shoduchi

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2018, 12:21:34 pm »
I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.

I havent seen many forge for 350/350. I personally think a K04 can and has produced 400/400+ figures. I'd forge for that.

350/350 with caped low range torque won't need forging, yeah. Just for top numbers the forged internals would be very advisable. :smiley:

You just agreed top numbers were 350/350 for a k04?  :laugh:
No, I agreed that for those 350/350 you won't need to forge the internals. For me those aren't the top numbers for a K04. There's always WMI to increase timing advance, for example. Better fuels, etc.

Offline Pesky jones

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2018, 12:22:03 pm »
400hp with some creative coast down calculations, or 350hp measured properly on an industry standard bench tester.
...Unless a good, tfsi knowledgeable tuner tunes it to 400bhp. Then it will be 400bhp on the bench tester.

Would you put a tenner on that?   I can guarantee an engine showing 400hp on a rolling road would not measure even close to that on VW's factory bench tester.

Fair play. Not going to disagree - just didnt know whether you were including claims of 400 by good tuners in the statement. So presumably your day in day out stage 2+ 350/350 (not pushed to the absolute limit) is actually nowhere near that either?

Also that statement leads to the assumption that the inaccuracy is exponential as you go up, as stock cars on the dyno make stock figures.

I just go by science and experience mate.  It's not an attempt to discredit tuners. You can only do so much with the standard engine configuration.

To make a genuine 400hp at the standard rev limit, you would have to shove about 2.4-2.6 bar of boost into it from a KO4 sized turbo.  A KO4 cannot make 2.6 bar for long without grenading itself.  Even pushing it to the usual 1.8 - 2 bar Stage 2+ pressure levels, it's waaaaaaay out of it's efficiency zone and merely super heating the intercooler.  Hence why even with an S3 intercooler, after 4 hard WOT pulls the timing starts getting backed off.  It's not a crap intercooler, it's the turbo.  It's too small.

A genuine 400hp might be achievable if you hogged out the head ports, ported the manifolds, fitted bigger valves, wilder cams and revved it to 8000rpm.....but even then, the more times you run it flat out, the power will start to reduce. And the balancer shafts will sh*t themselves.

Consistency is the name of the game, not an arbitrary peak number which is entirely questionable in the first place.

400hp with a big turbo, then absolutely.  With a K04, no way.   

Direct injection does have some power advantages, but not to THAT degree.   Not even the Focus RS can comfortably do 400hp with it's 300cc bigger engine, and they are cracking blocks and blowing gaskets at standard power, let alone tuned, so you have to use common sense really.  VW did not build 400hp worth of headroom into the EA113.  There is zero financial incentive for them to over build and engine to that degree.  I mean, look what they did to the BYD/S3 engine to run just 30-60hp more than the AXX.  That's a lot of mechanical changes for a small increase.

350 is a sensible and realistic expectation from a KO4 with all the bolt ons running 2 bar peak, holding 1.5.   You could potentially get a moment of greatness with a whopping great 2.2-2.3 bar 400lbft boost spike, but as you say, that amount of cylinder pressure can and does indeed smash people's pistons.  Loads of evidence of that on the facebook group.

You know a hell of a lot more about this then me, im purely going on what i've seen in the past. If Niki says X is X, I tend to blindly believe him. Perhaps I misinterpreted/ not fully understood the claims. I know you're not trying to discredit any tuners - didn't mean to imply that. Will have a good read through of above reply at lunch  :happy2:

Offline Pesky jones

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2018, 12:23:56 pm »
I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.

I havent seen many forge for 350/350. I personally think a K04 can and has produced 400/400+ figures. I'd forge for that.

350/350 with caped low range torque won't need forging, yeah. Just for top numbers the forged internals would be very advisable. :smiley:

You just agreed top numbers were 350/350 for a k04?  :laugh:
No, I agreed that for those 350/350 you won't need to forge the internals. For me those aren't the top numbers for a K04. There's always WMI to increase timing advance.

Oh, I thought you were agreeing here (bold) that a k04 cant make 400bhp. What were you agreeing with?

Offline Shoduchi

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2018, 12:34:15 pm »
I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.

I havent seen many forge for 350/350. I personally think a K04 can and has produced 400/400+ figures. I'd forge for that.

350/350 with caped low range torque won't need forging, yeah. Just for top numbers the forged internals would be very advisable. :smiley:

You just agreed top numbers were 350/350 for a k04?  :laugh:
No, I agreed that for those 350/350 you won't need to forge the internals. For me those aren't the top numbers for a K04. There's always WMI to increase timing advance.

Oh, I thought you were agreeing here (bold) that a k04 cant make 400bhp. What were you agreeing with?

I agree with Pudding about claimed numbers from some dyno benches. I'd trust more benches that work on the inertia principle.

I agree that a K04 can reach 380 bhp with a 99 octane fuel and a good engine setup. You can get more not by adding boost but from timing advance.

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2018, 04:38:00 pm »
You can work out the maximum possible engine power from a particular configuration with math equations and unquestionable physics.......if you have access to the relevant data......which we don't, sadly. 

As above, 400hp (on a rolling road, so 370-380 in reality) could be tickled out of the engine with extended rev limiters, race gas, straight thru exhaust and intake / turbo manifold work.

Any claims of a 400+hp KO4 with just intake, exhaust and intercooler I would take with a healthy pinch of salt.

Put 10 dyno operators / tuners in a room and they will all say theirs is the best and most accurate.   People selling you something rely on marketing, and to draw people in with marketing, you need big numbers, but being the unregulated industry that it is, they are not obliged to prove unequivocally that 400hp really is 400hp.   The whole motor industry is built on lies and false promises to one degree or another.



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Offline r5gtt

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2018, 04:57:31 pm »
Very close


Offline Bodyboarder81

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2018, 05:24:56 pm »
^ but you put the same car on a different dyno and you might get a result 50 bhp less !

Offline Pesky jones

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2018, 05:27:15 pm »
^ but you put the same car on a different dyno and you might get a result 50 bhp less !

Agreed, but thats not what we're debating. Atleast I hope that's not what we're debating  :laugh:

Offline Bodyboarder81

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2018, 05:35:03 pm »
I’m not out to discredit anyone ..... but from my short time around here R/tech are getting a considerable better results than anything else I’ve seen . Not to say they are not genuine ... but would love to get a comparison of a r-tech powered car on a few other dynos to see comparisons. Again all I’ve heard from and about r-tech have been very good and if they were closer I’d have a map off them .

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2018, 06:22:12 pm »
^ but you put the same car on a different dyno and you might get a result 50 bhp less !

Agreed, but thats not what we're debating. Atleast I hope that's not what we're debating  :laugh:

I guess we are debating what is physically possible, and measurement discrepancies in general.  Questioning one particular tuner's results just gets too messy on forums  :grin:   And then the tuners themselves jump in and start getting defensive, because as paying customers, how dare we have an opinion, right?

The error margin on rolling roads is huge, both across dyno manufacturers and dyno operators, which is why OEMs don't use them.  I for one believe the OEM way more than I do anyone in the aftermarket.

So, let's just say VAG applied 1.2 bar to a naturally aspirated CDL engine to extract 261 PS DIN certified, how likely is it that a further 140PS can be found from adding another 0.8 bar?  Not very.

If one tuner is knocking out considerably more power than their rivals, Occam's Razor has to be applied.  Which is more likely - Tuner A can defy physics, or their dyno is optimistic?










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Offline r5gtt

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Re: Most power made on a standerd ko4
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2018, 07:01:46 pm »
^ but you put the same car on a different dyno and you might get a result 50 bhp less !
Correct  :happy2: