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Author Topic: Down on power....  (Read 57289 times)

Offline neg

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2008, 09:33:49 am »
now just a touch over 50k so very similar, reg date May 2005.  I was starting to wonder if its the earliers one's

Apart from the N75 the turbo is the only other thing left, but like you know its the biggest and most expensive bit - would hair line cracks be shown up with the old smoke test - where the feed white smoke down to show up any leaks ? Its then finding people with knowledge of this.  Like I said though since the last investigation I need to check the logs to see if the issue of the boost limit is still there.  In stock mode the logs are find, requested meet actual no problem - its just when the boost is increased.

Would be interested to see yours if you could get them..?

This might be worth a read - came across this when searching other various forums here

As for the IC - maybe next weekend, see what the weather is like.  I'll post up another thread when I do.

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2008, 12:12:42 pm »
....

I've had a long chat with both Revo and JKM this morning and I feel totally confident in them both - We WILL solve this problem - It's just a matter of time.

Firstly, on Revo2 my Boost set at 7 is well under any max setting. Also my stock intercooler is not under any excessive demands whatsoever - Confirmed by JKM.

As I thought, JKM have checked the N75 logs and much much more, and all is ok. JKM have logs for over 200 2.0T FSI engines and I have every confidence in them and am booked in for Thursday to inspect and probably swop turbo's. I shalln't bother to spend extra money sending my turbo for testing by a specialist - Instead it may end up as a desk ornament!

Being without my car and hence the cost of hiring one adding to the cost of a turbo specialist reconditioning mine, is likely to be the same or more than the option I am taking, but with more inconvenience.

neg - Following how my problem gets solved, or whenever you like, you may find it helpful to contact JKM (Keith) 023 9263 9933  :happy2:

Oh, I had a read of that vortex thread you linked, but, frankly, I'm not inclined to muck about with such mods - It could create more problems imo!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 12:16:08 pm by RedRobin »


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Offline joesgti

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2008, 12:17:51 pm »
WOW new turbo, you dont hear people needing new ones of these everyday!!  :scared:

if it is the turbo id be keen to know what caused it!! probs excessive heat as thats the only thing that can screw a turbo up isnt it?? or too much boost, but that would have probs blown then. id look at gettin an i/c whilst the turbo is out  :smiley:


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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2008, 12:58:48 pm »
KO4 KO4 KO4  :mad: :jumpmove: That would be my decision but then again I can never get enough POWER!  :jumping: The second hand KO3 sounds like a viable option and a relatively inexpensive one at the same time. As you say you dont want 300 neddies going through your front wheels so this has gotta be the route to go down!  :happy2:

....Too many neddies for my taste and also £4,000!

But importantly, as TT has posted:
"High turbo boost + big turbo + high compression ratio = much shorter engine life" -

Which translates to:
"Higher boost level from the remap + K04 bigger turbo + high compression ratio (GTI, not Ed30) = much shorter engine life" - Or so it seems to me.

But if you did go for the larger K04 turbo, then don't crank up the boost as much on the remap.  :wink:
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline neg

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2008, 01:03:15 pm »
I'm very interested of the outcome - turbo off doesnt sound great but as you say it looks like the next option unfortunately.

Like you know you can throw plently of money down the loo trying to find the solution - which is why I stopped for a while.  I will report back findings with mine at the weekend when its back.  I may do some stock logs on the loan car I have in the time being to get a comparison while I have one available!

So how much in total are you expecitng the turbo swap to be? including fitting etc.  Are they looking to swap any other bits - when I had the K04 replaced they also recommended swapping the oil feed unit and pipes - something to bear in mind but I am sure JKM know what they are doing.

Keep us (me) posted!

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2008, 01:09:23 pm »
But if you did go for the larger K04 turbo, then don't crank up the boost as much on the remap.  :wink:

....Okay. So I'll PM you with my bank details for the £4,000 you're extremely generously offering to send me  :evilgrin:


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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2008, 01:16:15 pm »
Robin, have you ever been on any other rollers?  Maybe JKM have had theirs recalibrated since your first run way back when.  I am aware that DD rollers are supposed to be the most tightly regulated, by the manufacturer - and if JKMs were being "over generous" when initially installed - a subsequent recalibration might have down-corrected their readings.  I simply mention this because you seem to be saying that the stage 2 "seems better" - so your butt-dyno is telling you the stage 2 is better, but the RR is telling you the opposite.

....I went on some Dyno-Dynamic rollers at Weston Performance today but in Stock map (202.3 bhp) and with a boost graph which showed spike at 1.2 bar and bad drop off from 2,400 revs. Best to forget my butt-dyno!

And what was your stock readings on JKMs DD rollers?  :confused:

Engine oil - what brand, type and spec oil do you use?  And what is your oil consumption like?  Do you religiously keep it topped up to the max by adding small amounts frequently, or do you let the oil get fairly low and then add quite a lot?

....Both!! Usually frequent top-ups but there have been a couple of low fills. VW approved Mobil from my dealer. Consumption was heavy for first few thousand miles but now not so often. I change my oil every 10,000 miles.

Eeek.  Mobil oils are not really very good for VAG motors.  As with any US orginated oil, whilst it may say "fully synthetic" on the bottle, that simple statement breaches European guidelines.  Which is why I will always only ever recommend oils from European manufactures, such as Fuchs, Castrol, Motul, Total, Elf, Pentosyn, and the likes.

Regarding the oil change intervals, it might be worth changing every 5k miles or six months.  An extra oil change is much cheaper than the hassle of a new turbo!

Regarding actually finding oil in the turbo discharge pipe, I think this is fairly common.  I found oil in mine, and inside the standard intercooler - but it wasnt much.  Maybe one or two tablespoons, which is fairly reasonable.  However, I wonder if the stock GTI intercooler has something to do with this?  I personally reckon the stock i/c is slightly restrictive, which can cause a slight backpressure on the inlet side of the turbo.  Since upgrading mine to the S3 cooler and twintercooler, I do notice a much more rapid rise in turbo boost - which prooves that the airflow through the inlet tract is much freer and less restrictive.  Maybe this is also having an effect on the way that the oil vapours from the crankcase ventilation system are not getting to the combustion chambers quick enough.  Think of having a hot shower in a closed bathroom - the shower will steam away, but if you have a mega powerful extractor fan immediately above the shower head, it will suck out all the steam.  However, if you have a clogged, weedy fan, the steam wont get sucked out, but will condense on your bathroom mirror, and then dribble off the bottom edge.

....Sounds like very good justification for a S3 intercooler! My priorities are (1) This turbo issue (2) Suspension due to KoniFSD issue (3) Powdercoat Monzas.

But leaving 2 and 3 for a while wont in any way affect the performance or reliability of the engine.  By fitting a larger upgraded intercooler, and used with your existing remap - then the larger cooler should put less stress on the turbo, and actually help the turbo work a little better.

Onto a couple of other issues.  Did JKM plug in a VAG-COM to check for fault codes?  And did they carefully monitor the N75 cycle?

....Yes and no fault codes seen. Dunno about N75 cycle - What is that?

Answered earlier.  :smiley:

Regarding the actual replacement of the turbo - only you can decide which is the best way.  However, I would personally never recommend any second hand turbo, no matter how well the previous owner claimed to have looked after it.  You only need to recall some of the threads on the other GTI fourm (revving engines whilst stationary, "blipping" throttles, correct turbo cool down - I even think that you mis-understood about the cool-down procedure), and it simply showed a fundamental lack of knowledge on how to car for an engine in general, let alone the specific requirements of a turbo.  If I were forced to only take a 2nd hand turbo, then I would send it to a specialist turbo re-builder for a complete overhall and warranty.

If your original turbo is knackered, I would personally seek a specialist recon, or go for the genuine new VW part.  Yes, I understand your POV that the official VW 2 year warranty will probably be void - but it is the "peace of mind" from getting an OEM supplied part - you can pretty much expect an OEM new turbo to last a long while, but how long will a slightly cheaper second hand one last.  The labour charges will be the same, but if the 2nd hand one doesn't last, then someone will be paying the labour charges all over again.

....As usual, you make a very good point. If the second-hand K03 costs £400 + £200?? for overhaul = £600 approx and a new VW one costs £650, which to go for? I don't know if it's true but I've heard that VW sell reconditioned turbos.

Thanks as always for your time and valuable input  :happy2:

Yup, VW officially supply guaranteed reconditioned units, which include engines, starter motors, and tubos.  As others have stated, the part number will end in an "X" (meaning eXchange) for a reconditioned unit.  These parts are re-manufactured to the same identical tollerances and specs as brand new units.  Furthermore, in some instances, even if you order an exchanged component, you sometimes will still get a brand new item, but still pay the cheaper exchange price!  :wink:

Happy to help when I can.  :happy2:
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2008, 01:20:40 pm »
The problems I noticed was my boost would never meet requested, it would hit 1.3bar even if the ECU was requesting more, my gut feeling is that its a turbo issue or possible N75 but with the location of this on the TFSI being a right PITA its not easy to change.

Where is the N75 valve on these?
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2008, 01:24:47 pm »
would hair line cracks be shown up with the old smoke test - where the feed white smoke down to show up any leaks ?

It might, but it really isnt the best way for a turbo.  You really need to carry out "Non Destructive Testing" (known as NDT) - but using a specific set of NDT chemicals.  Anyone, with a bit of practice can use these, and the kits are available from www.Cromwell.co.uk
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2008, 01:25:58 pm »
if it is the turbo id be keen to know what caused it!! probs excessive heat as thats the only thing that can screw a turbo up isnt it?? or too much boost, but that would have probs blown then.

....But if the problem is solved without any obvious fault being visible in the turbo, how much would you be keen to pay to send it to a specialist to find out?

id look at gettin an i/c whilst the turbo is out  :smiley:

....Unecessary at this stage - As I posted earlier, the logs show absolutely no problems with the stock intercooler's performance.

Until later this week, it's speculation.


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Offline neg

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2008, 01:29:12 pm »
The problems I noticed was my boost would never meet requested, it would hit 1.3bar even if the ECU was requesting more, my gut feeling is that its a turbo issue or possible N75 but with the location of this on the TFSI being a right PITA its not easy to change.

Where is the N75 valve on these?

Attached to the turbo more or less - if you stretch you knee's the wrong way and look down the back left you will 'just' see small pipes coming out from it.  


Going back to the K04 option, is this a direct bolt on option for the K03 engine like the 1.8T's - just a thought as there were quite a few options for direct bolt on replacements to the K03 a couple of years ago. Do you really need to go as far as new injectors etc etc if you dont want to extract everything from it...

Offline neg

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2008, 01:31:58 pm »
....But if the problem is solved without any obvious fault being visible in the turbo, how much would you be keen to pay to send it to a specialist to find out?

after spending money to replace it, I doubt you would be that bothered if it fixed it.

Be useful to see any boost logs from yours to compare to mine before I go down this route!

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2008, 01:35:39 pm »
Also my stock intercooler is not under any excessive demands whatsoever - Confirmed by JKM.

And how have they done that?  :surprised:  :confused:

Unless JKM have physically removed the stock intercooler, carried out a visual inspection, carried out a pressure test, a leakage test, and a flow test - then JKM are on very thin ice to make such a claim.

I really have yet to find any evidence that the standard GTI cooler is up to the job on modified cars.  Yes, the standard GTI cooler, when used on a standard GTI, with a standard engine map, and standard exhaust, and standard air intake may be fine - I don't think your red beast could remotely be described as standard.  :wink:

I have often felt that you have been "over generous" with your praise of JKM.  However, on a certain other forum, had I have ever said this, then a certain other JKM "fan-boy" might have had me banned.

As I thought, JKM have checked the N75 logs and much much more, and all is ok. JKM have logs for over 200 2.0T FSI engines and I have every confidence in them and am booked in for Thursday to inspect and probably swop turbo's. I shalln't bother to spend extra money sending my turbo for testing by a specialist - Instead it may end up as a desk ornament!

I guess my "confidence" with JKM is less than your then Robin.  I would never recommend that anyone use a 2nd hand turbo, and am extremely surprised, and quite alarmed that JKM would do so.

Why don't you fone JKM and ask them to NDT the turbo housing before ordering a new or factory recon turbo.
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2008, 01:39:50 pm »
WOW new turbo, you dont hear people needing new ones of these everyday!!  :scared:

Superchips customers would though!  :wink:  :evilgrin:  :evilgrin:  :evilgrin:  :evilgrin:

if it is the turbo id be keen to know what caused it!! probs excessive heat as thats the only thing that can screw a turbo up isnt it?? or too much boost, but that would have probs blown then. id look at gettin an i/c whilst the turbo is out  :smiley:

There can be many things which trash a turbo.  But to look at just the potential hairline cracking on the housings, then this (apart from manufacturing defects, or poor castings of the actual metal) is simply down to incorrect "thermodynamic cycling" - ie, abusing the turbo by causing it to heat up and/or cool down too quickly.
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2008, 01:43:20 pm »
....But if the problem is solved without any obvious fault being visible in the turbo, how much would you be keen to pay to send it to a specialist to find out?

after spending money to replace it, I doubt you would be that bothered if it fixed it.

....Exactly!

Be useful to see any boost logs from yours to compare to mine before I go down this route!

....JKM have all the logs for my car. Their usual policy is to respect the confidentiality of the customer. However, perhaps I could give permission - I would need to speak to JKM.


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