Author Topic: revo,jabba or apr??  (Read 7491 times)

Offline john_o

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2009, 02:23:44 PM »
indeed RR , and the remap itself is only part of the equation , way more to it (in my review lol)
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Offline Keith@APR

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2009, 04:41:21 PM »
....

I wouldn't take too much notice of the APR bad publicity you report. If the issues were so, I think most of us here would know about it. Quite apart from that, a tuner such as APR, Revo, Superchips etc have the resources to solve unforeseen issues which may occur - They can't afford not to!

Also, you have to dial in the factor of bragging rights between shall we say the 'less mature minded' - It can get a bit like football team rivalry for some people. Yet another factor is that a problem on one car may not in fact be the remap but that the remap has brought it to light, but too many people feel they have to blame someone.

Just my two-penny-worth :smiley:

Sometimes comparison tests don't always go as they should.  There are alot of variables that have to be accounted for and its imperative that the car has a clean bill of health.  There are specific procedures that must be followed to ensure a fair comparison.  Its possible the car was either sick or really hot or not driven after being flashed and just put straight on the dyno, etc.

Offline Keith@APR

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2009, 04:47:05 PM »
Hi,

is this a std K03 GTI or a K04 Edition30 model ?

anyways , by all means post up the link , Id love to review the thread  :happy2:
APR or REVO both have good reputation with large customer bases.
On here REVO is more widely used (and also allows you to 'tune' some parameters)

do lots of research and make your own mind up.
I also have a  APR stg1 on ED30 review , plus there are other remap reviews in the  product section too   :happy2:

enjoy


i have a k03 as my model aint the ed30. i would have to try and find the link again if i can and post it. i think im going to go for revo

the funniest thing about these type of comparison tests also is that you can find at least 10 showing APR to be more powerful than others as well.

Most people don't realize the ecu calibration game isn't about who can make the most power as all tuners can hit the same power levels and fair comparison tests typically show very small differences.  Its really about how the power is made and the philosophy of the calibration in regards to reliability, linear power delivery and compensational mapping strategies.

Sometimes people over look the area under the curve and I've seen calibrations that are down 10bhp peak power but are 1-2 car lengths faster.  Another interesting measurement is the amount of time it takes to accomplish redline.  Timing 2500 rpm to redline runs shows a lot of interesting results.

Offline Msportman

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2009, 06:38:12 PM »
Hi,

is this a std K03 GTI or a K04 Edition30 model ?

anyways , by all means post up the link , Id love to review the thread  :happy2:
APR or REVO both have good reputation with large customer bases.
On here REVO is more widely used (and also allows you to 'tune' some parameters)

do lots of research and make your own mind up.
I also have a  APR stg1 on ED30 review , plus there are other remap reviews in the  product section too   :happy2:

enjoy


i have a k03 as my model aint the ed30. i would have to try and find the link again if i can and post it. i think im going to go for revo

the funniest thing about these type of comparison tests also is that you can find at least 10 showing APR to be more powerful than others as well.

Most people don't realize the ecu calibration game isn't about who can make the most power as all tuners can hit the same power levels and fair comparison tests typically show very small differences.  Its really about how the power is made and the philosophy of the calibration in regards to reliability, linear power delivery and compensational mapping strategies.

Sometimes people over look the area under the curve and I've seen calibrations that are down 10bhp peak power but are 1-2 car lengths faster.  Another interesting measurement is the amount of time it takes to accomplish redline.  Timing 2500 rpm to redline runs shows a lot of interesting results.

Absolutely Keith...it's the delivery and the area under the curve. It may be interesting for some people to know how much R&D APR do when writing new code. Some pics of your R&D facility would be great.
Ben you used to work for you I believe was an ex F1 engine mapper....he worked on my old MKIV at Jim's...it was the first UK car to be mapped on APR Stage 2 on my 1.8t.
APR I believe are working closely with VW. Will this mean factory backed mapped car's from the dealership?

Ian   
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2009, 07:53:42 PM »

APR I believe are working closely with VW. Will this mean factory backed mapped car's from the dealership?

Ian   

....While answering such questions, Keith, I'd love to know how Carbonio and Oettinger all fit together with APR - I find it a bit confusing because I think these different brands are closely related.

Thanks :happy2:


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Offline spliff1star

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2009, 08:19:56 PM »
ok so im confused now as ive never remaped a car before and you guys are saying the maps vary so much.i will only be adding a airfilter to my car when remaping. No exhaust system just yet,and the reason i was thinking revo is because the dealers cant trace it not to sure about apr or superchips?

Offline SteveP

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2009, 08:25:16 PM »
^^^ If a dealership really wants to they can trace any remap while it's loaded to the car.

Only the superchips bluefin allows you to reflash the ECU back to stock and this takes a bit of time.

Both Revo and APR (via the select plus and cruise switch respectively) can be put into a stock mode which is just a way of reducing the performance to stock levels.

HTH  :happy2:

Offline Keith@APR

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2009, 11:56:27 PM »
^^^ If a dealership really wants to they can trace any remap while it's loaded to the car.

Only the superchips bluefin allows you to reflash the ECU back to stock and this takes a bit of time.

Both Revo and APR (via the select plus and cruise switch respectively) can be put into a stock mode which is just a way of reducing the performance to stock levels.

HTH  :happy2:

I am not really sure how it works with Revo or Bluefin but I do know how it works with APR and I think what SteveP has listed is not perfectly correct.

We are the only company in the world that adds additional coding architecture to the ECU.  This new coding allows the ecu to flash itself much like the dealerships, Bluefin and others flash the ecu's through the obd 2 port except it all happens internally.

ECU files are typically 2mb of total size including some marked and addressed but unused space.  It is in these unused spaces that we insert our flashing coding and our operating maps or modes.

When you use your cruise control to select the mode you want, the ecu completely reflashes itself with a completely independent set of maps for that operating mode.

For example, going from 98 ron performance to stock requires the ecu to reflash itself with all of the operating maps that are different from your exact oem code.  The 98 ron performance maps that are different than your oem code is then compressed like a .zip file and stored in the inactive memory locations until you use the cruise control to tell the ecu to reflash itself back with the performance maps.  This means that other than the coding it takes to flash the ecu and the performance maps that are compressed and stored in an unused memory location, your ecu is 100% OEM operating maps and code.  Not maps that we've inserted that have been detuned but completely stock mapping.  In fact, the first part of installing an APR ecu upgrade with DPP is to extract your OEM performance mapping to be compressed and stored in the unused memory location.  This means that not only are you getting an exact OEM stock mode, you are getting YOUR EXACT OEM STOCK MODE.

The performance mapping and flashing code that is stored in the unused memory locations is less than 2% of the total file and the total file size remains the same OEM 2mb.

It is technologically impossible at the dealership level to detect APR ecu modification as long as you are in stock mode and security lockout is turned on.  The only way that the 2% of different coding can be detected is by Bosch Engineers or VAG calibration engineers that can completely extract the code on your ecu and compare it line by line to a version of the OEM code to find that 2% in difference.  It takes alot of man hours and expertise to be able to do this and chances are you will never see this technology available at the dealership level.

Furthermore, some percentage of the Bluefin flash must not be OEM as well or you would be able to use you bluefin flasher on any ecu.  The bluefin device must write a piece of code like a key or identifier in your ecu the first time it flashes it to know that the device belongs to that particular ecu.  So, bluefin is less than 100% exact OEM code as well.  Unless they write the code in the bluefin device which would make it very easy to unlock and use on every ecu you run across.

From what I understand by reading Revo's patent info, they do detune the performance map back to stock like behavior.

Offline Keith@APR

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2009, 11:58:34 PM »

APR I believe are working closely with VW. Will this mean factory backed mapped car's from the dealership?

Ian   

....While answering such questions, Keith, I'd love to know how Carbonio and Oettinger all fit together with APR - I find it a bit confusing because I think these different brands are closely related.

Thanks :happy2:

APR is the sole authorized distributor for the Carbonio product line and we share engineering and design tasks.

APR owns part of Oettinger.

Offline spliff1star

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2009, 03:29:09 AM »
ok Keith@APR looks like his swaying me towards a apr remap.  :happy2:

Offline WhiteHartMart

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2009, 07:16:41 AM »
Have to say that explanation was interesting reading - APR looking attractive for me too - dealers down here just seem sooooo anti mods  :sad1:
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Offline john_o

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2009, 04:57:23 PM »
Have to say thats added a bit more data to my memory banks thanks Keith  :happy2:
I thought it was switched not reflashed each time!

which brings on my questions.........
1.When I select std map it takes 10 seconds at most to select the map via the cruise.
So why does it take longer when 'flashing' at Awesome etc? (or is it always 'seconds' to flash the ECU code?)

2. Surely switching between maps would have been 'safer' ?
I guess youve chosen this method so it is OE in stock mode but is this reliable and safe?
The ecu memory will also have a flash limit for the number of times you can do this, any idea what it is?
(I  assuming Id have to switch to and from stock each day for 10yrs + to even get to this limit???)
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Offline Keith@APR

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2009, 03:31:06 PM »
Have to say thats added a bit more data to my memory banks thanks Keith  :happy2:
I thought it was switched not reflashed each time!

which brings on my questions.........
1.When I select std map it takes 10 seconds at most to select the map via the cruise.
So why does it take longer when 'flashing' at Awesome etc? (or is it always 'seconds' to flash the ECU code?)

2. Surely switching between maps would have been 'safer' ?
I guess youve chosen this method so it is OE in stock mode but is this reliable and safe?
The ecu memory will also have a flash limit for the number of times you can do this, any idea what it is?
(I  assuming Id have to switch to and from stock each day for 10yrs + to even get to this limit???)

1.  The first step of DPP is to completely read out your entire ecu and our server compares your oem binary to other oem binaries' and verifies the integrity of your ecu.  This takes about 2-3 minutes depending on ecu.

Once the binary is read and verified, our DPP server compiles our performance data with the remaining maps of your oem code that we don't change like start up maps, some part throttle mapping, etc.

When the compilation is complete, another 2-3 minutes, your entire ecu is reflashed.

Add in another 3-5 minutes for internet data transfer and any que in the DPP servers from others flashing and there is your 10-15 minutes of actual DPP flash time.  The installer spends another 10-15 minutes entering in your customer data, setting up the flash and using a diagnostic tool to verify the flash, etc.

When our engineers use an internal flashing tool that is much like the EMCS works internal to the ecu, we only flash the calibration sectors of the ecu which is only a portion of the 2mb, don't have to compile the total OEM binary, don't have to wait for any internet or DPP ques, it takes about 10-15 seconds.

2.  There are several flashing counters and other protocols in the ecu that can limit the number of flashes or alert the oem dealership to more flashes than the ecu should have.  Part of reading your oem binary is to determine the number of flashes your ecu has seen prior to coming to us.  This allows us to rewrite your flash counters back to their same number of flashes before you came to see us so noone will know your ecu has been flashed off of the OEM dealership network.  EMCS doesn't have to worry about the counters as it flashes the internal memory of the ecu in a way that the counters aren't designed to record as a flash.

Internal ECU flashing is a more elegant and powerful solution and keeps the OEM code exactly OEM.  Its a more advanced way of doing it and also provides some code integrity and security protocols.  Almost every tuners' code can be stolen and from what I understand our product is more secure than most and we go to great lengths to insure it stays that way and internal ecu flashing helps with that as well.

Offline john_o

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2009, 03:38:54 PM »
really appreciate you taking the time to respond Keith  :happy2:
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: revo,jabba or apr??
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2009, 03:50:57 PM »

really appreciate you taking the time to respond Keith  :happy2:


.... x 2

:happy2: 8) :happy2:

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