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Author Topic: Water/methanol Injection thread  (Read 30180 times)

Offline Janner_Sy

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Water/methanol Injection thread
« on: September 28, 2009, 01:02:35 pm »
 there doesnt seem to be many threads for information about with Water meth injection. Or when you do find a thread it has a cut and paste technical info guide on it, which is mostly sales jargon etc.

The US forums have threads on it, but are filled with pointless bitching so are irratating to read through. Some have said the difference is huge, especially with reducing heatsoak, but it is a lot cooler over here so maybe we wouldnt see that much of an increase.

Hopefully Dubtek and other people will be able to provide some good info on this. Im not sure if anybody has used this on this forum yet.

heres a list of things i woiuld be keen to find out.

1- power/torque increases when used ontop of a standard remap
2- Power/torque figures when used in conjunction with a water/methanol specific remap to make the most of it.
3- How long a mixture will last,
4- Can it be set up to only operate on full throttle or will it be on all the time.
5- What different water/meth ratios will give what sort of results
6- how does it work, in dimple terms
7-can it damage your car
8- best places to store the mixture
9- will it clean out your engine like nos would

and im sure there are lots more

I mega keen on getting this, and am putting money aside so i can get some ASAP.

My understanding is it injects the water meth mixture into the inlet cooling the inlet temps down, preventing the air fuel mixture from detonating early, meaning you can advance the timing for m0reoomph. I have also read that it also acts a bit like an intercooler. and can prolong the life of your engine.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 05:39:31 pm by Janner_Sy »

Offline cuprak1

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2009, 01:18:58 pm »
I dont want to just COPY/PASTE here but i found this useful

http://www.vagfans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=254


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Offline Poverty

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2009, 05:06:55 pm »
bill at badger 5 runs and sells these kits. He could give you some real life info.

Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2009, 06:38:05 pm »
badger 5???

is he a memeber on here

Offline Hedge

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2009, 07:43:21 pm »
badger 5???

is he a memeber on here

I don't think so but he is on Briskoda and SCN.

Offline chungster

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2009, 08:16:05 pm »
Bill's not really tinkered with any 2.0T FSI motors yet...he's main interest is still the 1.8T and BT'ing them.

He does sell the Snow Performance WMI kit however.


Offline nick-barnes07

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2009, 10:35:22 pm »
he also sells the devils own kits, which are as good as snow performance and a fraction of the price, he know s his stuff on the vag engine's, water/methanol works good on any turbo'd cars ,

Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2009, 10:13:29 am »
So the options manufacturer wise then are

snow performance
devils own kits
BSH water meth

Offline cuprak1

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2009, 10:19:13 am »
So the options manufacturer wise then are

snow performance
devils own kits
BSH water meth

I rate devils own!

GB anyone?

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Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2009, 10:23:41 am »
Id be up for that. provided it is good value,

whats the going price for one of these, difficulty in fitting/costs

you say you rate devils own have you  used it on previous cars?

Offline cuprak1

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2009, 10:29:07 am »
Id be up for that. provided it is good value,

whats the going price for one of these, difficulty in fitting/costs

you say you rate devils own have you  used it on previous cars?

You can get a decent WM kit on ebay for about £250 all in..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120441829380&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

theres another company, cooling mist.. basically they all do the same thing, as long as the pump has a decent pressure rating.

I have seen in use a DO kit on an adui s4 over 500 bhp and its certainly well made and works as expected.

I would say we not just go for the cheapest option, but one which we know will provide what we need for the VAG platform. and that one would be the snow performance 2.0 tfsi system.

i have a great how to guide here for the DO kit - http://members.shaw.ca/cadbury/DIYDevilsOwna.pdf

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Offline nick-barnes07

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2009, 09:06:32 pm »
ID BUY FROM BILL, HIS PRICES ARENT MUCH MORE THAN £250 ANYWAY, AND IF IT GOES WRONG HE IS ONLY A PHONE CALL AWAY, I AM ALWAYS A BIT WARY ABOUT BUYING FROM ABROAD OR OF E BAY AS ONCE YOU HAVE PAYED AND LEFT FEEDBACK THEY ARE NOT REALLY INTERESTED ANYMORE, AT LEAST WITH BILL IF ANYTHING GOES WRONG HE WILL SORT IT OUT FOR YOU

Offline cuprak1

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2009, 10:03:02 pm »
ID BUY FROM BILL, HIS PRICES ARENT MUCH MORE THAN £250 ANYWAY, AND IF IT GOES WRONG HE IS ONLY A PHONE CALL AWAY, I AM ALWAYS A BIT WARY ABOUT BUYING FROM ABROAD OR OF E BAY AS ONCE YOU HAVE PAYED AND LEFT FEEDBACK THEY ARE NOT REALLY INTERESTED ANYMORE, AT LEAST WITH BILL IF ANYTHING GOES WRONG HE WILL SORT IT OUT FOR YOU


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Offline vRStu

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2009, 10:24:56 pm »
There is a guy on Briskoda with the username based around Devils Own.  I think he is a UK agent.
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Offline justin@bsh

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Re: Water/methanol Injection thread
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 09:28:02 pm »
Water Methanol injection is a fantastic Product with many different uses. here are a few links where there  isn't any arguing to sift through.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/faq.php?cID=1

http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_type.php?type=gasoline

You will gather from reading through both FAQ pages that at first glance there isn't much difference between the two kits. I personally lean towards DO kits but I will get into that in a minute...


There are Three main benefits that are usually covered with the installation of Water/Meth. Power, Cleaning Property's & Fuel economy.

Power:
The tuner you use is going to make a pretty big impact on whether or not you will be able to get the full power benefit of one of these kits. With Chip Tuning that doesn't offer switchable maps you will probably see about 10 to 14 HP. This is very comparable to throwing 109 Octane in the tank of a completely stock car. The biggest power gains are going to come with chip tuning that offers some sort of switchable "Race Fuel File" pretty much all of the most reputable software companies have this option, GIAC and their flash loader, REVO with their SPS, and even APR with that nifty switcher that is built into the column. When you have the availability to switch to a MAP that runs a higher boost level and more advanced timing you will see huge power gains and can really take advantage of the octane boost. In some of our studies we have seen up to 40 WHP paired with an appropriate MAP on the 2.0t FSI.

Cleaning:
The cleaning benefit is also huge with these kits. It is a commonly known issue that there is a huge amount of build up on the intake valves on the FSI cars due to the direct injection and horrible stock PCV system. The water pretty much steam cleans the valves as it passes by on it's way into the cylinder. In my personal experience with the FSI these kits do a better job at keeping valves clean then they do at penetrating the massive amounts of build-up that forms on the MKV.

Fuel economy:
Fuel economy is increased in the gasoline cars just like if you were to run "Race Fuel". The extra 20-25% of octane provided by the methanol allows for more spark timing advance and a leaner air/fuel ratio with the use of a programmer. Both of these factors not only improve power, their efficiency gains improve mileage as well. Additionally, many modern cars will detect the combustion of the methanol and reduce the injection of gasoline accordingly through the adjustment of long-term fuel trim values in the vehicles computer. This can directly and positively impact gasoline fuel economy. Gains of 5-15% are possible depending on how the vehicle is tuned and driven.

For diesel Vehicles The MPG-MAXâ„¢ systems from Snow Performance is specifically designed to enhance Power and fuel economy. Both the diesel MPG-MAXâ„¢ systems are specifically designed to inject a very small and precise amount of water/methanol under normal driving conditions such as accelerating away from a stop light or driving up a slight grade. Gains of 10-20% are possible depending on how the vehicle is tuned and driven.

Recap for OP:
1- power/torque increases when used on top of a standard remap
    8 - 15 WHP
2- Power/torque figures when used in conjunction with a water/methanol specific remap to make the most of it.
    25 - 40 WHP
3- How long a mixture will last,
    Depending on driving habits you will go through about 1 gallon of mix to a tank of gas.
4- Can it be set up to only operate on full throttle or will it be on all the time.
    The progressive controller option on the stage 2 kits makes this very adjustable.
5- What different water/meth ratios will give what sort of results.
    The more methanol you use the more octane you see the more water you use the more cooling you see.
6- Can it damage your car
    Not if installed properly.
7- best places to store the mixture
    Garage, shed, barn...? check label on methanol container.
8- will it clean out your engine like nos would
    YES!

In my own personal experience I lean towards the Devils own kit. The Snow kits have there benefit but for the 2.0t direct injection motors Devils Own has my vote. Just about every kit on the market has an adjustable progressive-rate controller. The reason DO has everyone licked is because there progressive rate controller is Pulse regulated. That means that as your car builds boost the pump is being sent full 12V pulses until it reaches the specified full-on mode that you set on the controller. The benefit is that you are seeing better atomization of the mixture all the way through the power ban thus seeing more performance and better cooling. Other benefits are that DO's standard pump is a strong 250 psi pump There nozzles are of their own design and focused around ease of installation and the bulk heads that let you to tap into the window washer tank allow you to have an indicator light on your dash letting you know when it's time for a refill.

We are master Distributors of Devils own and Snow performance, we currently supply multiple dealers with there Water/Methanol kits all over the world including BADGER 5. Dubtek being a BSH Dealer also has full access to these kits.

Link:
http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/home.php?cat=703