MK5 Golf GTI
General => Product Reviews => Topic started by: Teutonic_Tamer on September 01, 2010, 01:03:53 pm
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Well, I've finally got round to doing mine - and what a pleasant result. Now with correctly set adjustable ARBs and properly restrained ponies - there is no need for a Quaife.
So, what did I do. I wanted to keep it as 'OEM' as possible. I bought new left and right genuine mounts, along with the two lower rear circular mounts (the stealer had replaced the rear dogbone under warranty a couple years back - though they lied, as they originally claimed to have replaced the main circular mounts!), and modifed them to a Teutonic_Tamer secret specifcation! :booty: :evilgrin: I thoroughly de-greased, de-waxed, de-chalked the new mounts - then completely filled all voids with a special very high temperature black RTV silicone (don't use generic building silcone from the sheds, or it will go sloppy when the engine gets hot). Then I left them for about a month for the silicone to thoroughly 'cure'. A normal bead thickness of upto 10mm takes upto 7 days to fully cure, hence my four weeks.
When fitting time eventually came, it is simply a case of removing the front subframe (this will NOT affect the geometry if done correctly), cut out the original circular mounts (which actually weren't too shagged in the end - see later), and tried to press in my newly modified OEM ones. What a firkin barstward. Jeeeez, I don't think I've ever come across such a wank design. After double checking the offical manuals, you need an expensive official special tool (which I aint got). Further investigation revealed this tool is basically two tapered cylinders (along with some bars and clamps to attach it to the subframe). You need to pre-bolt the two halfs of the mounts together, then press them into the tapered cylinders (to 'shrink' the outside diameter of the mounts), then press them into the subframe! Onto the 'dog-n-bone' - firstly to a mate with his own garage who makes his own special tools (well handy chap) - nada, a couple of other mates who work for different fabricating engineering companies - not a hope in hell. So to my local VAG indies - none had the tool, and none had done the job before. Finally, the local official stealers. What a disaster. Both Skoda stealers had never done the job and didn't have the tool. The Audi stealer didn't want to know (quote "we arn't allowed to take businees away from the VW garage" - full bladder > bow of ship stand > headwind > urinate :fighting:). VW garage didn't 'return my calls'!. Seat garage, who also claim to be VAG all makes specialists - well what a palava. "Yes sir, we can do these, we have done them before, and we do have the official specialist tool". Sooooper dooooper, I replied, when can you do it for me? "Or workshop is very booked up, it could be two or more weeks!" OK, being the smart alec that is I, I told them I'd already removed the front subframe, and had already purchased said mounts, so would that be quicker? They replied it might be, it might not - you can leave it with us, and we'll do the job as and when - but it could still be two or more weeks. Now I'm getting everso mildly pi$$ed off. Thinking that was my only way forward, I asked them to give me a quote on the price. "We can't give you a price until we've seen what needs to be done" was their reply (hang on, I thought, they just admitted to having done some already . . . .). So I said, surely you know roughly how long it will take, and you should also know your standard labour rates? "Well, every job is different, and we have different labour rates". The T_T was getting slightly more peed off. Explaining again that the subframe was already off, that the old mounts had been removed, the housing cleaned, and new mounts were in the box ready to go in - I asked them again how long - FFS - I reckon it would have been easier to jerk off a mountain gorilla!!!!!! Still they refused, and asked me what car it was off. I asked them why, they said about different labour rates - I said clarify - they asked what make - I said VW Golf - they said "oh our VW labour rate is much higher than our Seat rate" - I said I'm NOT bringing in the whole car, just a subframe which is shared across ALL VWAG marques - they said they'd still charge me their top labour rate - I politely told them to copulate, and hung up!!!!! These are allegedly a 'reputable' VAG specialist . . . .
Back to the drawing board. Had another go at pressing them in myself at my mates workshop (the dude who makes his own tools), using an old cylinder liner with some tapered fillets - but no joy. Mate and I well and truely shagged new mounts . . . . Fires up interweb and realises VibraTechnics make a far better mount. Further web work shows that JKM and VWR have said mounts. Spoke to JKM just to confirm which type they had - only to find that someone has 'done a dirty' and stopped JKM from selling them anymore. So off to VWR website, only to find VibraTechnics mounts re-branded as VWR (why? . . . . . why do you do this, VWR?). So order duly placed with VWR, and postie has a pressy a few days later.
Before fitting any of my new mounts, having removed subframe, the engine was just being supported on the two left and right mounts. I was honestly gobsmacked at how shagged those two mounts were. If you pushed the sump forward, the whole engine & transmission would rock back and forth like a childs swing. Seriously, I got about 6" of movement. I know many others here have theorised that it is the lower rear mount which is probably the most important one for controlling the torque-reaction pitching of the engine/tranny - but I personally can vouch that is not the case. Explained more later.
So duly fitted VibraTechnics VWR lower rear mount. This is without doubt an excellently engineered product. It is CONSIDERABLY easier to fit than VWs genuine offerings. Bolted the subframe back in, torqued up all bolts etc, lowered the car back on its wheels, refitted everything - and gave it a try. Fired up the engine from cold. Noise/vibes wise in the cabin - to be honest - I really couldn't tell the difference. And when warmed up, again no real difference. Took it for a drive, gave it a spanking, and a few 'rapid' starts from rest. Yes, there was some definate improvement in traction, and I could also sense the engine/tranny was moving less - but I could still feel a fair amount of movement. Got back, lifted bonnet, tried 'blip test' - less movement than before, but still what I'd consider excessive movement.
So next day (or when I could be ar$ed - cant now remember), I fitted my T_T modifed new OEM left and right mounts. Boy oh boy. What a truely massive improvement. Cold start up does give very slightly more noise and vibes - though this is categorically not detracting (remember, the GTI is Mrs Tamers daily drive). SWMBO is completely happy with this issue.
How does it now drive? Absolutely superbly. No matter how hard I try, I get absolutely NO wheel hop or axle tramping. The wheels will just spin, then grip - no tugging on the steering (which means no torque steer - an idication for a Quaife or similar). It is massively better when powering v.hard out of corners, no matter how tight. HUGE improvement.
On inspecting the old left and right mounts - they were well foooked. When the bottom mount was disconnected, the engine was limper than Danny La Rues wrists. They really are far to OTT in terms of 'comfort' as designed by VW.
Conclusion. If you want to retain all the comfort and refinement of a daily driver, and eliminate the 'braile' communication from your engine/tranny, but want considerably better traction behavior - then fit a VibraTechics lower rear mount, and modify some new OEM mounts.
Oh, final comment to report - I too now hear the 'whine' from my DSG in 2nd gear - I think this was also reported by RedRobin.
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:worthless:
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:worthless:
Yeah, I know - been v.busy, including trying to revive a dead 'puter and getting all my info off that.
Keep pestering me, and I'll try getting them up! :ashamed:
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Yeah, I know - been v.busy, including trying to revive a dead 'puter and getting all my info off that.
Keep pestering me, and I'll try getting them up! :ashamed:
Just take out the HDD and put in an enclosure. Job done :happy2:
Now where are those pics :innocent:
You did say keep pestering you :P :evilgrin:
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If these are the mounts i think you are talking about i remember them being almost half the price at JKM compared to the rebranded VWR ones.
It would be nice if someone from VWR would care to explain how they can justify the price being almost double, with there name on.
:fighting: :fighting: :fighting: :fighting: :fighting: :fighting: :fighting: :fighting: :fighting: :fighting: :fighting: :fighting: :fighting: :fighting: :fighting:
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It takes a long time to Write VWR perhaps :laugh:
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Makes my piss boil. :smiley:
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its called running a business :signLOL: and i think vwr had them made by the company and also helped with the design of them so maybe hold the wrights to em so cant be sold by any other dealer
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Egzakerly TC - JKM would also like to know, as they've had to take it off their web site. Not really creating an open and competative market place by their tactics. Here - linky http://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/parts/part-details.asp?id=463. Then 'let me Google that for you' - http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Vibra+Technics - and see just how many other reputable companies like to sell all the other Vibra Technics manufacturerd mounts.
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its called running a business :signLOL:
No it isn't. It is blatantly shafting your competators by creating a blatant monopoly.
and i think vwr had them made by the company and also helped with the design of them so maybe hold the wrights to em so cant be sold by any other dealer
Nope, that is pure tosh - just like all VWRs similar claims. Remember the sooper doooper VWR custom Quaife - BS as it is an identical Quaife to what anyother company sells. Same for their VWR KW suspension - the springs they claim to be unique to VWR are basically stock springs available from KW - they just have a specific weight range, in exactly the same way that VW have a range of genuine springs for the GTI to suit differing ex-factory kerb weights (ckeck in ETKA - there are about 12 different springs for a GTI).
No, Vibra Technics are the 'experts' in their field - they did all the R&D, just like they do for their Ford or Vauxhall or whoever mounts.
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If you don't like it give vwr a call and ask them as you might as well ask them instead of complaining about it
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He has but they didn't call him back :signLOL: :signLOL:
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He has but they didn't call him back :signLOL: :signLOL:
They knew it was him then :signLOL: :popcornsoda:
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Nope that the customer service standard from the boys and girls of MK :laugh:
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I always get in contact with them when my aircon blew in France one text and they called within 10 min :confused:
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TT where are these pics :sad1:
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If you don't like it give vwr a call and ask them as you might as well ask them instead of complaining about it
So you think shafting others is acceptable? :confused:
And for the record - this is NOT me slagging off VWR - as I rate many of their activities extremely highly - namely their motorsport operations. :innocent: And I think Sam Roach is a top bloke. :drinking: But just 'cause I like some aspects of a company, and not others - that doesn't mean I should have a totally polarised opinion of them!
And yes, their customer service is good too, as is their speed of product despatch. :congrats:
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I think i like shafting others :ashamed: only kidding but like I said TT give sam a call and I am sure he will be more than happy to tell the answers to your ????
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lets not sully a good thread with the 'usual' ... :confused:
nice work TT. some good points , I think stokeballon also mentioned that the side mounts were the biggest culprits too going against the idea of the lower being the primary strain taker. cant visualise in my head why but fact is more proof than theory lol
personally i think silicone is a cop out, when you could have created some dynamic engine mounts ala the new porsche's design :signLOL:
you plan to post up instructions / proper part no's for others to follow the DIY?
Why would I use new mounts as a basis for the mod and not my old 'well used' ones out of interest?
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lets not sully a good thread with the 'usual' ... :confused:
nice work TT. some good points , I think stokeballon also mentioned that the side mounts were the biggest culprits too going against the idea of the lower being the primary strain taker. cant visualise in my head why but fact is more proof than theory lol
personally i think silicone is a cop out, when you could have created some dynamic engine mounts ala the new porsche's design :signLOL:
you plan to post up instructions / proper part no's for others to follow the DIY?
Why would I use new mounts as a basis for the mod and not my old 'well used' ones out of interest?
could be the 4 week curing time John, you would either be car less for 4 weeks or be forced to buy a new set to run with in the mean time?????
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They are still on the JKM website. :wink:
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aaah good point gaz :happy2: duh :signLOL:
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I think i like shafting others :ashamed: only kidding but like I said TT give sam a call and I am sure he will be more than happy to tell the answers to your ????
I don't doubt you in the slightest - I'm quite sure Sam would tell me. :smiley: But that doesn't make it any better that someone (whoever it may be) stoped JKM selling them too. :popcornsoda:
Anyway, like I said, I don't want this to get into a traders slanging match. :happy2:
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lets not sully a good thread with the 'usual' ... :confused:
:happy2: :happy2:
nice work TT. some good points , I think stokeballon also mentioned that the side mounts were the biggest culprits too going against the idea of the lower being the primary strain taker. cant visualise in my head why but fact is more proof than theory lol
I can see where peeps are coming from. Yes, the lower rear mount should be the 'primary taker' of the torque reaction strain - and indeed it is. However, as much as we slag and beef about the OEM lower rear mount, it actually has fairly limited tollerance for movement - even when totally shagged. There is probabaly only about 3-4mm each way (back and forth) in the lower mount - which is what the cheaper options of the poly inserts fill quite well (be they a very poorly engineered solution).
But both the side mounts have about 4 times the amount of play in them. Now, 4 times doesn't sound that much - but think how they are are being acted upon. With the lower rear, it is being acted upon at the very extreme of the engine (the furthest away from any imaginary 'centre pivot') so basically with the lower mount - what you get is what you see. But the two side mounts are probably as close to the 'centre pivot' as possible. Lets for example say there is 16mm movement each way - multiply 16mm by the length of the 'pivot' (so that is from the centre of the side mounts, to say the bottom of the sump) - then you can see why the two side mounts have a far greater effect than many may actually think.
personally i think silicone is a cop out,
Huh - why? Silicone filling of voided engine mounts has long been the de-facto way of stiffening mounts on Group N cars (rallying and circuit racing) which need to keep OEM parts.
when you could have created some dynamic engine mounts ala the new porsche's design :signLOL:
You lost me there . . .
you plan to post up instructions / proper part no's for others to follow the DIY?
What, for the whole shebang, or just my silicone mods?
Why would I use new mounts as a basis for the mod and not my old 'well used' ones out of interest?
Two reasons - firstly, the silicone really does need at least 2 weeks, ideally 4, to properly cure - you are talking about prolly 3inch thick silicone - and mine were still vinegar stinky after about 6 weeks - so can you prop up your engine on bricks for that long whilst they go off? Secondly, my old engine mounts were well and truely fooooked - when you use silicone, you are actually supplementing the existing rubber in the mounts - so if the existing rubber is past its sell by, then you are only really doing half a job.
Time for kip now . . . :indifferent:
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They are still on the JKM website. :wink:
The lower rear one ain't. JKM had to remove it after I discussed with them. They only have the Vibra Technics side mounts - because they still have stock of these - http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/tfsimotormounts.htm#tfsi
Oh and don't buy those THS FR3 lower rear mounts from JKM either - they are fundamentally identical to how I modified a set of new OEM mounts - these still need that VW special workshop tool to pre-shrink them before pressing into the subframe - so you will be cursing trying to fit them.
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Cheers shaun :happy2:
theory on amount of relative amounts of movement seems sound.
RE: silicon a cop out / porsche active mounts , I was making a joke that it was too easy for a man of your talents :grin: and that you could have copied porsche
Porsche Active Engine Mounts linky (http://www.porsche.com/microsite/technology/default.aspx?pool=usa&ShowSingleTechterm=PTDynMoLa&Category=CATFah&Model=&SearchedString=&SelectedVariant=)
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Now with correctly set adjustable ARBs and properly restrained ponies - there is no need for a Quaife.
Oh, final comment to report - I too now hear the 'whine' from my DSG in 2nd gear - I think this was also reported by RedRobin.
....I agree with your findings about the big benefits of these engine mounts but am surprised by your Quaife comment. I can see how the mounts would lessen the work the Quaife needs to do but I need convincing that a Quaife is of no benefit when such engine mounts are installed. Or am I taking your words too literally?
Obviously it's reassuring and good to know you're hearing the same (or similar) 'whine' as on my car. There's absolutely no effect on performance that I can detect due to the 'whine'. Fortunately I'm someone like Mat who actually enjoys all the added sounds from the engine bay - As one becomes familiar it becomes easy to spot any changes in sounds which may herald a problem which needs solving. I absolutely hate quiet cars!
:happy2:
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anyone got a pic of the mount split apart ?
I cant quite picture where the voids are and how the mount moves (car side vs engine side)
from this page
http://www.thsperformance.co.uk/product/FR3_TOP_Engine_Mounts_1.8_TFSI_2.0T_FSI%7CTDI_THSFR3-MK5TOP
I found, but it still doesnt quite make sense
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ths.snapalbum.co.uk%2Fimages%2Ffr3%2Ffr3diff.jpg&hash=2a82577e57b34773428a8c139794b01451045996)
does the other side just slot in ?
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The lower rear one ain't. JKM had to remove it after I discussed with them. They only have the Vibra Technics side mounts - because they still have stock of these - http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/tfsimotormounts.htm#tfsi
Oh and don't buy those THS FR3 lower rear mounts from JKM either - they are fundamentally identical to how I modified a set of new OEM mounts - these still need that VW special workshop tool to pre-shrink them before pressing into the subframe - so you will be cursing trying to fit them.
I fitted some BETA FR3 lower mounts happily on the bench with a vice and a "improvised" press took me no more than 1hr 30mins from start to finish....don't see why you would have so many problems....
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The lower rear one ain't. JKM had to remove it after I discussed with them. They only have the Vibra Technics side mounts - because they still have stock of these - http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/tfsimotormounts.htm#tfsi
Oh and don't buy those THS FR3 lower rear mounts from JKM either - they are fundamentally identical to how I modified a set of new OEM mounts - these still need that VW special workshop tool to pre-shrink them before pressing into the subframe - so you will be cursing trying to fit them.
I fitted some BETA FR3 lower mounts happily on the bench with a vice and a "improvised" press took me no more than 1hr 30mins from start to finish....don't see why you would have so many problems....
Im with Carl on this one TT. I have fitted the THS mounts with no issues. We just charge 1 hour for the lower mount. Carl did well to get it done in a vise in around 1 1/2 hours. I agree that it would be easier to shrink them first, but even unshrunk they still go in with no loss of plastic.
I wish we could get the VT mounts direct from VT as they are another good option. Even our trade price from 'Racingline' is crazy expensive, so we just dont bother.
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Cheers shaun :happy2:
theory on amount of relative amounts of movement seems sound.
:happy2:
RE: silicon a cop out / porsche active mounts , I was making a joke that it was too easy for a man of your talents :grin:
Ahhhhh - - I often have a sense of humour failure! :ashamed:
and that you could have copied porsche
Porsche Active Engine Mounts linky (http://www.porsche.com/microsite/technology/default.aspx?pool=usa&ShowSingleTechterm=PTDynMoLa&Category=CATFah&Model=&SearchedString=&SelectedVariant=)
My RS4 has active engine mounts - as do virtually all longitudinal Audis. They are the bees knees! :star:
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Now with correctly set adjustable ARBs and properly restrained ponies - there is no need for a Quaife.
Oh, final comment to report - I too now hear the 'whine' from my DSG in 2nd gear - I think this was also reported by RedRobin.
....I agree with your findings about the big benefits of these engine mounts but am surprised by your Quaife comment. I can see how the mounts would lessen the work the Quaife needs to do but I need convincing that a Quaife is of no benefit when such engine mounts are installed. Or am I taking your words too literally?
A Quaife, or any ATB diff, works by apportioning torque to the side which has the most grip.
On a 'normal car' (ie unmodified), loss of traction from one side is simply down to differences between the co-efficient of friction between the tyres (and therefore, the tyre with the lower friction, or grip, will spin and brake traction - with an open diff). The obvious cause is lack of wheel control from the suspension - correctly set ARBs will reduce this quite dramatically. But another cause of loss of traction is abrubt variations in radial/axial torque control - two fundamental causes - 1/ excessive play in the mounting of the powertrain assembly (the engine & tranny 'rocking' backwards and forwards around the same axis), and 2/ intermittant interuption of torque delivery by traction control systems (either by momentarilly killing the ignition, or by momentarilly braking driven wheels). By eliminating powertrain play, the transmission of torque is vastly more consistent (no more axle tramping or wheel hop).
So, with uprated engine mounts, AND correctly set ARBs, and turning off the ESP - the need for a Quaife or similar is VASTLY reduced. I have to try VERY hard - seriously hard, to get any cross axle loss of traction. But then I do run decent boots! :P
Obviously it's reassuring and good to know you're hearing the same (or similar) 'whine' as on my car. There's absolutely no effect on performance that I can detect due to the 'whine'. Fortunately I'm someone like Mat who actually enjoys all the added sounds from the engine bay - As one becomes familiar it becomes easy to spot any changes in sounds which may herald a problem which needs solving. I absolutely hate quiet cars!
:happy2:
Usually, whining from gearboxes is NOT good - however, this seems to be a 'factory fitted' trait! :evilgrin:
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anyone got a pic of the mount split apart ?
I cant quite picture where the voids are and how the mount moves (car side vs engine side)
from this page
http://www.thsperformance.co.uk/product/FR3_TOP_Engine_Mounts_1.8_TFSI_2.0T_FSI%7CTDI_THSFR3-MK5TOP
I found, but it still doesnt quite make sense
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ths.snapalbum.co.uk%2Fimages%2Ffr3%2Ffr3diff.jpg&hash=2a82577e57b34773428a8c139794b01451045996)
does the other side just slot in ?
Those pictures just show the inner part of the tranny side mount removed from its outer casing. :wink:
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Revo Carl & BDMAlex - maybe those THS FR3 lower rear mounts have a slightly smaller outside diameter than the OEM mounts. Or maybe I filled my new OEM mounts with too hard a grade of silicon - there was jack all movement in the centre bolt when nipped together - and NOTHING was able to compress them to shrink the diameter. :sad1:
And like I said, all of my local stealers were adamant that you could only install these lower rear mounts with the special tool to pre-shrink them. Maybe I just ought to take EVERYTHING the stealers say as BS - afterall, they also categorically stated that the R32 rear anchors could not go on the GTI - and many know the hot water that landed me in after I shared said info on the forum! :ashamed:
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Maybe I just ought to take EVERYTHING the stealers say as BS - afterall, they also categorically stated that the R32 rear anchors could not go on the GTI - and many know the hot water that landed me in after I shared said info on the forum! :ashamed:
Well if all you are doing is regurgitating BS from elsewhere then maybe we should treat everything you say as BS.
:popcornsoda:
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Well if all you are doing is regurgitating BS from elsewhere then maybe we should treat everything you say as BS.
:popcornsoda:
:signLOL: :signLOL: :signLOL:
I've just spat my brew over my Keyboard :congrats: :congrats:
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Well if all you are doing is regurgitating BS from elsewhere then maybe we should treat everything you say as BS.
:popcornsoda:
INCOMING !! ....
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_S1Gu2hX9S6c%2FTDe8QwxhkII%2FAAAAAAAAWoQ%2FERND1SoCcOY%2Fs800%2FSLQ-32_console_USS_Iowa.jpg&hash=aaa0cbcc52ebe11570fac5c200920fa691effafb)