MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: Lucastheone92 on September 06, 2016, 01:47:25 pm

Title: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Lucastheone92 on September 06, 2016, 01:47:25 pm
Just wondering peoples thoughts on intakes. A lot of people say they are worth buying whilst a lot of people also say that they just suck in warm air from the engine bay and can mess with MAF. I also read that it does not matter how much air you suck in as it still has to go through the throttle body.

Every time I read up on intakes my mind gets changed from buying one to not buying one!

If you do have one which type do you guys have? the EVOMS intake seems a poplular choice.

I have a edition 30 at stage 1.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Paradox1 on September 06, 2016, 02:01:57 pm
For stage 1 I wouldn't bother. they may increase bhp a little bit but that you will notice.

I only got 1 as im going beyond stage 1.. but then again, whos to say I need one for a stage 2 map???
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: xs2man on September 06, 2016, 03:59:26 pm
I have an APR Carbonio (I think it is).  But only because it was on the car when I bought it.  Otherwise I'd have gone for a Revo, if I had gone for anything at all.

I will admit, it is a nice looking bit of kit in that engine bay, so I'll be keeping it, the car also benefits from a carbon fiber engine cover anyway.  So does look good.

I will say though, there is a lot of chat on some of the facebook groups where people are going for that Ramair thing.  I don't see the point personally.  It's only £50 cheaper or something than the Revo, and the tuners (well, R-Tech in particular) suggest that there is no better intake out there for making numbers.  Now there is more to life than numbers, for sure.  But for the sake of an extra £50, when you're already looking at spending close to £200, it seems a no brainer to me to go for the more efficient one at gaining numbers.

TDLR:  My money would be buying a Revo.  But as I have an APR one already, I wouldn't dream of spending money again on this side of things.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on September 06, 2016, 04:40:33 pm
I think from what I've read about the Revo, it does the best job of matching the standard intake's MAF scaling. Plenty of other intakes don't, and therefore the ECU is forced to use bigger fuel trim corrections. It's not all about flow (as much as it's a big factor).

If and when I get an intake, it'll be Revo. But by that time I wouldn't be surprised if something even better is available!
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Madone on September 06, 2016, 08:15:39 pm
I recently went from the standard air box at stage 2+ on my edition 30 to the VWR intake. The MAF scaling is spot on so no loss of torque and it takes cold air directly from the grill in the same place the Oem version did. In terms of performance, I can honestly say (at stage 2+) it made a big difference (bigger than expected), def noticeable pulls much harder, more torque and power. 100% worth doing. Noise wise the VWR isn't much louder than stock which is what I wanted. Can't comment about stage 1, I ran the standard intake with panel filer all the way to stage 2+. But based on my experience it made a massive difference.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on September 06, 2016, 09:06:27 pm
Stock or Stage 1 I will be keeping the Standard Air Box, If I ever decided to go any further with the tuning I would look at my options then.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Lucastheone92 on September 06, 2016, 09:59:11 pm
I recently went from the standard air box at stage 2+ on my edition 30 to the VWR intake. The MAF scaling is spot on so no loss of torque and it takes cold air directly from the grill in the same place the Oem version did. In terms of performance, I can honestly say (at stage 2+) it made a big difference (bigger than expected), def noticeable pulls much harder, more torque and power. 100% worth doing. Noise wise the VWR isn't much louder than stock which is what I wanted. Can't comment about stage 1, I ran the standard intake with panel filer all the way to stage 2+. But based on my experience it made a massive difference.
What sort of power is your edition 30 at now then ? I've been thinking about stage 2 once I've got everything I need but then again I'm pretty happy with 300hp!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Madone on September 06, 2016, 10:05:30 pm
I recently went from the standard air box at stage 2+ on my edition 30 to the VWR intake. The MAF scaling is spot on so no loss of torque and it takes cold air directly from the grill in the same place the Oem version did. In terms of performance, I can honestly say (at stage 2+) it made a big difference (bigger than expected), def noticeable pulls much harder, more torque and power. 100% worth doing. Noise wise the VWR isn't much louder than stock which is what I wanted. Can't comment about stage 1, I ran the standard intake with panel filer all the way to stage 2+. But based on my experience it made a massive difference.
What sort of power is your edition 30 at now then ? I've been thinking about stage 2 once I've got everything I need but then again I'm pretty happy with 300hp!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm running Revo stage 2+, not been on the dyno but reckon around 350-360, but it's the torque that really thumps. I'm going to RTech soon to get a fully custom map and really optimise everything for the setup I have.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Charlie23 on September 07, 2016, 12:15:59 am
I have the Wide mouth Evoms, can't say it does much but sounds great  :happy2:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: nkp on September 07, 2016, 07:15:13 pm
I've just installed the RamAir oversized induction kit on my standard GTI yesterday.

Does it go any faster? my bum dyno thinks so (but probably not in reality).
Does it make a nice noise? YEP!.
Does it make me smile more than when i drove it on a standard airbox? HELL YEP.

For me thats enough till i actually get an exhaust and go to stage 1/2  :happy2:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Chris92 on September 08, 2016, 12:12:52 am
Stage 2 or above you will really benefit from a aftermarket intake, stage one stock air box is fine.

I fitted a revo one on my stock gti with the intention of going stage 2+ but never did and sold car. When I put the stock box back on I couldn't believe how much more punch it had, first foot to the floor I was  :driver:  :jumpmove:

When if I come back to the 2.0tfsi it'll be a revo one for sure great piece of kit, forget the rest  :happy2:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: shoaybmakda on September 09, 2016, 09:54:20 pm
Weather it was psychological or not I'm not sure but I had the revo intake on mine and it certainly felt that it accelerated better.

For me it was too loud however and with a 6 month old and a Mrs who would certainly not sit in the car if it made loud wooshy noises I had to get rid (of the intake not the mrs I have to add! :signLOL: )
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: flashp on September 10, 2016, 06:25:16 am
For stage 1 I wouldn't bother. they may increase bhp a little bit but that you will notice.

I only got 1 as im going beyond stage 1.. but then again, whos to say I need one for a stage 2 map???
I'd echo this. I have one at stage 2 and I think if I didn't occasionally track mine I would keep the standard intake. Intakes do help breathing in the upper rev range but they do change the behaviour of the power/torque delivery at everyday speeds. It's not a big deal but I prefer the OE intake for this alone.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on September 12, 2016, 02:40:52 pm
I recently went from the standard air box at stage 2+ on my edition 30 to the VWR intake. The MAF scaling is spot on so no loss of torque and it takes cold air directly from the grill in the same place the Oem version did. In terms of performance, I can honestly say (at stage 2+) it made a big difference (bigger than expected), def noticeable pulls much harder, more torque and power. 100% worth doing. Noise wise the VWR isn't much louder than stock which is what I wanted. Can't comment about stage 1, I ran the standard intake with panel filer all the way to stage 2+. But based on my experience it made a massive difference.

Sounds like the best compromise if it doesn't blunt the bottom end at all?  Not cheap though!

Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Madone on September 12, 2016, 07:55:56 pm
I recently went from the standard air box at stage 2+ on my edition 30 to the VWR intake. The MAF scaling is spot on so no loss of torque and it takes cold air directly from the grill in the same place the Oem version did. In terms of performance, I can honestly say (at stage 2+) it made a big difference (bigger than expected), def noticeable pulls much harder, more torque and power. 100% worth doing. Noise wise the VWR isn't much louder than stock which is what I wanted. Can't comment about stage 1, I ran the standard intake with panel filer all the way to stage 2+. But based on my experience it made a massive difference.

Sounds like the best compromise if it doesn't blunt the bottom end at all?  Not cheap though!

I know you and I have discussed this before and the merits of the standard air box, I was a firm advocate of the standard airbox.   :happy2: However, I read the more tuned the engine the more benefit can be had. Dan explained about she MAF scaling killing torque so knew a VWR kit would be scaled right. The difference on a stage 2+ eddy is big, the standard airbox is def strangling it. I am off the RTech in a couple of weeks so wanted to have the best setup I could before going. Even with the Revo stage 2+ and no adjustments for the airbox it feels much stronger !. I am surprised by how much. As you say, it's not cheap but I couldn't face the noises from something like the Revo intake. :jumpmove:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: baka on September 12, 2016, 08:18:30 pm
Are the OEM intakes and air boxes identical between the eddy and the GTI?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on September 12, 2016, 08:23:51 pm
Are the OEM intakes and air boxes identical between the eddy and the GTI?
Yes
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on September 13, 2016, 01:17:43 am
Are the OEM intakes and air boxes identical between the eddy and the GTI?
The air filter is different, it seems. Same shape but less restrictive for Ed. 30 and mk6 Golf R.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on September 13, 2016, 01:27:59 am
I recently went from the standard air box at stage 2+ on my edition 30 to the VWR intake. The MAF scaling is spot on so no loss of torque and it takes cold air directly from the grill in the same place the Oem version did. In terms of performance, I can honestly say (at stage 2+) it made a big difference (bigger than expected), def noticeable pulls much harder, more torque and power. 100% worth doing. Noise wise the VWR isn't much louder than stock which is what I wanted. Can't comment about stage 1, I ran the standard intake with panel filer all the way to stage 2+. But based on my experience it made a massive difference.

Sounds like the best compromise if it doesn't blunt the bottom end at all?  Not cheap though!

I know you and I have discussed this before and the merits of the standard air box, I was a firm advocate of the standard airbox.   :happy2: However, I read the more tuned the engine the more benefit can be had. Dan explained about she MAF scaling killing torque so knew a VWR kit would be scaled right. The difference on a stage 2+ eddy is big, the standard airbox is def strangling it. I am off the RTech in a couple of weeks so wanted to have the best setup I could before going. Even with the Revo stage 2+ and no adjustments for the airbox it feels much stronger !. I am surprised by how much. As you say, it's not cheap but I couldn't face the noises from something like the Revo intake. :jumpmove:

Your experience makes me want to try the VWR intake to see what it would be like in my Ed. 30. At least for doing the odd track day I'd take advantage of it. For daily driving the car is fast enough.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Madone on September 13, 2016, 09:12:32 am
I recently went from the standard air box at stage 2+ on my edition 30 to the VWR intake. The MAF scaling is spot on so no loss of torque and it takes cold air directly from the grill in the same place the Oem version did. In terms of performance, I can honestly say (at stage 2+) it made a big difference (bigger than expected), def noticeable pulls much harder, more torque and power. 100% worth doing. Noise wise the VWR isn't much louder than stock which is what I wanted. Can't comment about stage 1, I ran the standard intake with panel filer all the way to stage 2+. But based on my experience it made a massive difference.

Sounds like the best compromise if it doesn't blunt the bottom end at all?  Not cheap though!

I know you and I have discussed this before and the merits of the standard air box, I was a firm advocate of the standard airbox.   :happy2: However, I read the more tuned the engine the more benefit can be had. Dan explained about she MAF scaling killing torque so knew a VWR kit would be scaled right. The difference on a stage 2+ eddy is big, the standard airbox is def strangling it. I am off the RTech in a couple of weeks so wanted to have the best setup I could before going. Even with the Revo stage 2+ and no adjustments for the airbox it feels much stronger !. I am surprised by how much. As you say, it's not cheap but I couldn't face the noises from something like the Revo intake. :jumpmove:

Your experience makes me want to try the VWR intake to see what it would be like in my Ed. 30. At least for doing the odd track day I'd take advantage of it. For daily driving the car is fast enough.

I am happy with the change, I didn't think the stock box was bad till I tried the VWR. If I was anything less than stage 2+ I wouldn't have bothered. But at 2+, glad I did. It is slightly noisier, you can hear the recirc valve if the windows are open, but with them closed sounds pretty much the same with slightly more engine noise on a full throttle pull.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on September 13, 2016, 09:29:01 am
Hmmm, you've got me tempted as well!  Not noisy, adds power and the MAF tube is correct.

I'm still on the factory airbox and filter on my Eddy.  I've been stage 1 for ages now.  Kind of tempted to go stage 2 with the VWR!

If you're stage 2+, do you notice the famous 'surge' around 2500-3000rpm under hard load?


Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Madone on September 13, 2016, 11:48:43 am
I have noticed the noise yes, wondered what it was !  Obviously it was there before the change in airbox but couldn't hear it before. It does seem to come and go, doesn't appear 100% of the time. It's hard to hear much with the windows up but there are a few more noises than before, this surge noise, general turbo noises and such. But my wife didn't notice anything different, so it's suttle.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on September 13, 2016, 02:17:58 pm
Yeah that's true, the OEM airbox filters a lot of noise out.  Out of interest, what does your wife drive day to day?  My gf drives a MK4 1.6 Golf, which literally is one of the slowest cars I've ever driven, so when she drives mine, she's a complete nutter in it. Drives it harder than I do!!  I don't appreciate how quick the car is until I'm a passenger in it.  They're pretty bonkers these remapped ED30s aren't they?  :grin:

Anyway, looks like the VWR kit has come down (a little!) in price.  I didn't spot one for an Edition on Awesome's site.  I guess a MK6 R one would work?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: xs2man on September 13, 2016, 03:52:53 pm

Anyway, looks like the VWR kit has come down (a little!) in price.  I didn't spot one for an Edition on Awesome's site.  I guess a MK6 R one would work?

This not it?  https://www.awesomegti.com/shop-by-brand/volkswagen-racing/volkswagen-racing-intake-system-vw-golf-mk5-2-0tfsi/

£438 for an intake though?  You boys must have more money than sense.  I couldn't possibly justify that sort of outlay on an air filter, and I thought the Revo was expensive, lol.  (Although I do have a Carbonio fitted to my ED30, I certainly didn't fit it).
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on September 13, 2016, 04:27:35 pm

Anyway, looks like the VWR kit has come down (a little!) in price.  I didn't spot one for an Edition on Awesome's site.  I guess a MK6 R one would work?

This not it?  https://www.awesomegti.com/shop-by-brand/volkswagen-racing/volkswagen-racing-intake-system-vw-golf-mk5-2-0tfsi/

£438 for an intake though?  You boys must have more money than sense.  I couldn't possibly justify that sort of outlay on an air filter, and I thought the Revo was expensive, lol.  (Although I do have a Carbonio fitted to my ED30, I certainly didn't fit it).

That's for the GTI chap.  The Edition 30 has a front mounted dump valve that throws it's waste choo choos into the turbo intake pipe.  The MK6 R kit shows the right turbo intake pipe for that.

I know what you mean.  Crazy cash isn't it.  It's a good way to get rid of the annoying engine cover and solve the associated heat soak issues though.  It does also appear to give good gains when the boost is whacked up to the max too.  But yeah, 44 sheets on an air filter.  The missus would think I'd lost the plot if I bought one.  Then again, £1000 for a handbag?!?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Madone on September 13, 2016, 05:08:47 pm
Yeah that's true, the OEM airbox filters a lot of noise out.  Out of interest, what does your wife drive day to day?  My gf drives a MK4 1.6 Golf, which literally is one of the slowest cars I've ever driven, so when she drives mine, she's a complete nutter in it. Drives it harder than I do!!  I don't appreciate how quick the car is until I'm a passenger in it.  They're pretty bonkers these remapped ED30s aren't they?  :grin:

Anyway, looks like the VWR kit has come down (a little!) in price.  I didn't spot one for an Edition on Awesome's site.  I guess a MK6 R one would work?

My wife drives a new Q5 3ltr TDI, but like all new audi's it's super quiet but has tons of torque and great for all the baby gear in the boot. She sometimes drives my RS3 too, tbh she thinks the golf is too much of a handful  :happy2:, the RS3 is just as powerful but more refined compared. It's really the reason I have kept the golf and like driving it (although don't drive it enough), it's a totally different experience, really exciting and more old school turbo than the other cars. That's really the appeal for me. As you say a mapped ed30 is something to behold  , regardless of what else you drive !  :jumpmove:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: xs2man on September 13, 2016, 06:55:04 pm

Anyway, looks like the VWR kit has come down (a little!) in price.  I didn't spot one for an Edition on Awesome's site.  I guess a MK6 R one would work?

This not it?  https://www.awesomegti.com/shop-by-brand/volkswagen-racing/volkswagen-racing-intake-system-vw-golf-mk5-2-0tfsi/

£438 for an intake though?  You boys must have more money than sense.  I couldn't possibly justify that sort of outlay on an air filter, and I thought the Revo was expensive, lol.  (Although I do have a Carbonio fitted to my ED30, I certainly didn't fit it).

That's for the GTI chap.  The Edition 30 has a front mounted dump valve that throws it's waste choo choos into the turbo intake pipe.  The MK6 R kit shows the right turbo intake pipe for that.

I know what you mean.  Crazy cash isn't it.  It's a good way to get rid of the annoying engine cover and solve the associated heat soak issues though.  It does also appear to give good gains when the boost is whacked up to the max too.  But yeah, 44 sheets on an air filter.  The missus would think I'd lost the plot if I bought one.  Then again, £1000 for a handbag?!?

There is an option button to click for the ED30 chap.  :drinking:  Look at the second picture even.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: FJ1000 on September 23, 2016, 09:44:41 am
Anyone done any before and after dyno runs, or peak MAF readings?

A dyno might not be the best environment for testing an intake (relatively poor airflow vs on the road, potential for heat soak), but could be interesting nonetheless.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on September 23, 2016, 10:34:42 am
Some bold claims for the VWR one.  Up to +9% peak power and turbo spool reduced by 500rpm.  The latter I'm a little skeptical of personally, given it's the turbine wheel / housing that has the biggest influence on spool up :smiley:

They don't state under what conditions and mechanical spec you get those gains.  For example, do you need a full exhaust to see those improvements?  And at what boost pressure and rpm do you see that +9% increase in hp?

£450 is a lot to take a punt on it, based on vague sales pitching.

I suspect VW Racing saw those gains on their own racing car, which runs shed loads of boost, full exhaust etc etc.  I reckon a mild stage 1 tune with just a DP would probably see about +5% because at 1.4-1.5 bar, the turbo isn't struggling that badly to get air in.  So around 15hp for £450?  I don't really see that as a good £ per hp investment personally, but that's only because that kind of money is almost a VWR spring a damper set, which would give more profound and noticeable gains from the get go :)

Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on September 23, 2016, 10:54:06 am
Are the OEM intakes and air boxes identical between the eddy and the GTI?
The air filter is different, it seems. Same shape but less restrictive for Ed. 30 and mk6 Golf R.

This is correct,

The normal GTI Panel filter is P/N 06F133843A, The Edition 30/Pirelli Filter is P/N 06F133843B.

They are both identical in shape but the Edition 30/Pirelli filter is thinner and less restrictive. It is also the same filter on the MK6 Golf R and I would presume the Edition 35 also  :happy2:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on September 23, 2016, 10:59:42 am
Some bold claims for the VWR one.  Up to +9% peak power and turbo spool reduced by 500rpm.  The latter I'm a little skeptical of personally, given it's the turbine wheel / housing that has the biggest influence on spool up :smiley:

They don't state under what conditions and mechanical spec you get those gains.  For example, do you need a full exhaust to see those improvements?  And at what boost pressure and rpm do you see that +9% increase in hp?

£450 is a lot to take a punt on it, based on vague sales pitching.

I suspect VW Racing saw those gains on their own racing car, which runs shed loads of boost, full exhaust etc etc.  I reckon a mild stage 1 tune with just a DP would probably see about +5% because at 1.4-1.5 bar, the turbo isn't struggling that badly to get air in.  So around 15hp for £450?  I don't really see that as a good £ per hp investment personally, but that's only because that kind of money is almost a VWR spring a damper set, which would give more profound and noticeable gains from the get go :)

I would assume that those types of gains would be achieved when the Standard Air-box assembly and intake are becoming a restriction and the weakest point in the set-up. On an Edition 30 this would probably be beyond 300BHP or a good Stage 1.

My Golf R made 313BHP on the Stock Air-Box which is the same as the ED30 set up.

I have seen cars with Evoms and Revo intakes make similar figures to my own cars which have both have stock set ups although this is at Stage 1, However as you mentioned the Exhaust is the restriction beyond Stage 1!

Not sure what the limits are on the stock Airbox?

When I was dealing with tuning Saab's a few Years back the Standard Air-Box on the 9-3's would support 400BHP happily!
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on September 23, 2016, 11:19:33 am
I would assume that those types of gains would be achieved when the Standard Air-box assembly and intake are becoming a restriction and the weakest point in the set-up. On an Edition 30 this would probably be beyond 300BHP or a good Stage 1.

My Golf R made 313BHP on the Stock Air-Box which is the same as the ED30 set up.

I have seen cars with Evoms and Revo intakes make similar figures to my own cars which have both have stock set ups although this is at Stage 1, However as you mentioned the Exhaust is the restriction beyond Stage 1!

Not sure what the limits are on the stock Airbox?

When I was dealing with tuning Saab's a few Years back the Standard Air-Box on the 9-3's would support 400BHP happily!
My Ed. 30 with petrol 98 made 330 CV multiple times on the dyno. My tuner told me the airbox wasn't restricting the power at this point (my current tuning is requesting 1.4 bar of stable boost). He wasn't willing to push the engine and DSG more at this point, to keep everything reliable. He was more worried about increasing the torque than anything else. He offered me instead the option of getting petrol 100 if I wanted more power.

From what I read in this forum from Niki Gower the airbox can handle 330-340 BHP. Beyond that it's restrictive.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on September 23, 2016, 12:09:49 pm
Here's a curveball then... Niki told me that the drop off in power at the top of my rev range was because of my standard airbox (Stage 2 k03).

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160923%2F6e80947b19ab5c37dc3bf38666c60da0.jpg&hash=508e359f9359b5621f4c94a347f6ed8ba1106f47)

Interesting claims with VWR. I've heard that Niki likes the Revo intake. To be honest I don't think an intake alone is going to make a huge difference to the top end of a k03 car. I'll get a better turbo for that, and probably stick an intake on to help it flow a little more while I'm at it.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on September 23, 2016, 01:49:28 pm
I had the DSG tuned and the rpm limited upped from 6500 rpm to 7000 rpm. Unfortunately the power stabilised at 330 CV from 6500-7000 rpm. Maybe I'd get more with a more open intake. Just not sure if the money is worth it. I might in the future try the VWR intake.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on September 23, 2016, 03:04:14 pm
Good info about the Ed30 vs GTI OEM paper filter.  I didn't know that!  So it has the same amount of pleats, just not as thick?

330-350hp seems a reasonable restriction limit for the factory airbox.  If it were THAT restrictive, paper filters would buckle and distort and the intake tube / airbox would collapse under max boost / rpm, like humans inhaling on a crisp packet.

Here's a curveball then... Niki told me that the drop off in power at the top of my rev range was because of my standard airbox (Stage 2 k03).

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160923%2F6e80947b19ab5c37dc3bf38666c60da0.jpg&hash=508e359f9359b5621f4c94a347f6ed8ba1106f47)

Interesting claims with VWR. I've heard that Niki likes the Revo intake. To be honest I don't think an intake alone is going to make a huge difference to the top end of a k03 car. I'll get a better turbo for that, and probably stick an intake on to help it flow a little more while I'm at it.

That looks like a normal K03 curve to me.  It does start to run out of puff past 5500 like that anyway and the two lines neatly converge at 6000, where it has little more to give. I can't see an intake making a huge difference, although replacing the standard thing with a big pipe is always going to improve flow into the turbo a bit, well, into the MAF housing at least.  You might find perhaps, a realistic 10hp up there with a decent intake on the K03?

Turbo engines are fighting two pressure differentials.  The exhaust gases leaving the cylinder, and the boost pressure entering it.  The turbo struggling to draw enough air in ranks quite far behind those two challenges and only becomes a factor when they've both been freed off as much as possible.  Any power you do find from an intake is always right at the top end, where not that many of us drive at for very long!  I can't remember the last time I exceeded 7000rpm!
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on September 23, 2016, 05:35:10 pm
Good info about the Ed30 vs GTI OEM paper filter.  I didn't know that!  So it has the same amount of pleats, just not as thick?

330-350hp seems a reasonable restriction limit for the factory airbox.  If it were THAT restrictive, paper filters would buckle and distort and the intake tube / airbox would collapse under max boost / rpm, like humans inhaling on a crisp packet.

Here's a curveball then... Niki told me that the drop off in power at the top of my rev range was because of my standard airbox (Stage 2 k03).

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160923%2F6e80947b19ab5c37dc3bf38666c60da0.jpg&hash=508e359f9359b5621f4c94a347f6ed8ba1106f47)

Interesting claims with VWR. I've heard that Niki likes the Revo intake. To be honest I don't think an intake alone is going to make a huge difference to the top end of a k03 car. I'll get a better turbo for that, and probably stick an intake on to help it flow a little more while I'm at it.

That looks like a normal K03 curve to me.  It does start to run out of puff past 5500 like that anyway and the two lines neatly converge at 6000, where it has little more to give. I can't see an intake making a huge difference, although replacing the standard thing with a big pipe is always going to improve flow into the turbo a bit, well, into the MAF housing at least.  You might find perhaps, a realistic 10hp up there with a decent intake on the K03?

Turbo engines are fighting two pressure differentials.  The exhaust gases leaving the cylinder, and the boost pressure entering it.  The turbo struggling to draw enough air in ranks quite far behind those two challenges and only becomes a factor when they've both been freed off as much as possible.  Any power you do find from an intake is always right at the top end, where not that many of us drive at for very long!  I can't remember the last time I exceeded 7000rpm!
I'm with you on that mate. Well put.
Like I said, I'm prioritising a turbo upgrade over an intake. Just seems futile expecting big things from an intake unless you're at the very least on a 2+ k04. I'd imagine with a k03 hybrid and associated 2+ mods a decent intake could be a nice thing to have, but still not exactly essential.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on September 26, 2016, 11:25:11 am
I was also thinking if the same airbox on the Edition can support 300+hp, your curve is definitely the turbo running out of puff  :smiley:

Yeah a bigger turbo is the way forward.  I just wish the TTE turbos weren't 2 grand!
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on September 26, 2016, 11:32:38 am
I was also thinking if the same airbox on the Edition can support 300+hp, your curve is definitely the turbo running out of puff  :smiley:

Yeah a bigger turbo is the way forward.  I just wish the TTE turbos weren't 2 grand!
I don't have the luxury of strong internals so I'm conveniently (in a financial sense) capped to ~350bhp!

I'm sure I'd have priced up one of TTE's offerings if I was in a k04 car though
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Dan_FR on September 26, 2016, 01:48:43 pm
I was also thinking if the same airbox on the Edition can support 300+hp, your curve is definitely the turbo running out of puff  :smiley:

Yeah a bigger turbo is the way forward.  I just wish the TTE turbos weren't 2 grand!

It doesn't work like that. A big turbo could pull 500hp from the factory airbox,  but it doesn't mean it's "good" for that hp on any turbo setup.

Same as a cat or decat.  Just because a stage 1/1+ K04 can make 340hp with the standard cat in place,  doesn't mean it's "good" for that level of hp and won't become a restriction at a much lower level of power on a smaller turbo
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: spwd on November 28, 2016, 09:04:48 pm
Just read this thread and will be picking up my 06 dsg gti this week and usually I guess an intake is the first thing done on many cars but you guys are saying they're not worth the expense and I'd be better off buying a panel filter like the one @Ollieeee (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14633)  is selling?

 When I had my MR2 Turbo a few years back the intake and intercooler made a massive difference so what's the difference?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Speedy83 on November 29, 2016, 05:31:18 am
How about panelfilter in stock airbox, is this completly unnecessery or do they have any positive impact on a stock or Stage 1 on a k03 turbo engine?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Dan_FR on November 29, 2016, 06:04:53 am
Cats should be first to go, they are the major restriction. An intake is beneficial to mapped cars especially to release the 'peak hp' numbers at higher rpm
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: spwd on November 29, 2016, 08:50:14 am
So would you recommend buying oliies carbonio panel filter, don't want to miss it if I don't need an intake.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Dan_FR on November 29, 2016, 09:10:42 am
Define 'need'?

It helps to know what your power goals are... Pointless buying a panel filter if you're going to get a proper intake at a later date.

A panel filter is middle ground. A lot cheaper, marginal gains over standard and just as quiet. An intake (such as the Revo or similar) will give better gains but cost more and they are a lot louder (which to me is no bad thing.

The graph above and Niki's advice is spot on - That man tunes these cars day in day out and is the most honest & decent 'business owner' I've ever met. The standard airbox WILL choke the K03 at higher rpm as the little turbo runs out of puff (and is the limiting factor of peak power at Stage 2), so the key is to maximise efficiency and minimise restrictions..... but again, it depends what you want and what your end goal is

Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: spwd on November 29, 2016, 09:55:05 am
Thanks for the info Dan, I'm not planning on stage 2 whatever that's defined as, I'll perhaps do the first few easy mods usually nice sounding exhaust and a sports cat as you say that's a big restriction and I'd usually do an intake but if it doesn't make any difference in power on basically a standard car then I'd sooner save my £250 or put it to better use, basically I'm asking what are the first few mods usually done if an intake isn't one of them, hopefully you know what I mean  :happy2:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Ollieeee on November 29, 2016, 09:57:39 am
Mine hit 249bhp and 301ft/lb at R-Tech with panel filter, good figures but Niki said to go any higher it would need an intake as the airbox was restricting it. So as said, depends how far you're wanting to push your figures.

Also, panel filter is sold (I think) just waiting on the money, sorry!
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Dan_FR on November 29, 2016, 10:19:39 am
Thanks for the info Dan, I'm not planning on stage 2 whatever that's defined as, I'll perhaps do the first few easy mods usually nice sounding exhaust and a sports cat as you say that's a big restriction and I'd usually do an intake but if it doesn't make any difference in power on basically a standard car then I'd sooner save my £250 or put it to better use, basically I'm asking what are the first few mods usually done if an intake isn't one of them, hopefully you know what I mean  :happy2:

Generally with these cars, any mapping with the stock cats in place is 'Stage 1' and anything with a sports or de-cat is 'stage 2'.... as this requires different mapping both in terms of fuel strategy and adjusting the emissions maps to stop the EML being triggered.

If you'll be stopping at just a remap, then a panel filter and perhaps knocking the pre-cat out (easy DIY - plenty of guides on here) may be the way to go
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: spwd on November 29, 2016, 02:22:22 pm
Yeah that sounds about right Dan, so I get a panel filter or try to find a bargain intake as it won't do any harm if I CAN find one then take the cat off and smash all the crap out the inside then put a cat back exhaust on and a remap and should be around 230bhp or is that hoping too much lol, also is the dsg remap worth doing at any stage.

I'll  start my own thread when I get my car lol, infact I'll start one now and thanks for letting me know @Ollieeee (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14633)  :happy2:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on November 29, 2016, 04:22:44 pm
Just read this thread and will be picking up my 06 dsg gti this week and usually I guess an intake is the first thing done on many cars but you guys are saying they're not worth the expense and I'd be better off buying a panel filter like the one @Ollieeee (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14633)  is selling?

 When I had my MR2 Turbo a few years back the intake and intercooler made a massive difference so what's the difference?

I suspect either the MR2 factory components weren't particularly good in the first place, or the MR2 head flows more than the VW one does.

What difference did you find, out of interest, with no other changes?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on November 29, 2016, 04:25:24 pm
Mine hit 249bhp and 301ft/lb at R-Tech with panel filter, good figures but Niki said to go any higher it would need an intake as the airbox was restricting it. So as said, depends how far you're wanting to push your figures.

Also, panel filter is sold (I think) just waiting on the money, sorry!

Again, did he elude to how much extra power would be liberated, with no other changes?  Is yours on the standard exhaust and downpipe?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: spwd on November 29, 2016, 06:49:50 pm
Just read this thread and will be picking up my 06 dsg gti this week and usually I guess an intake is the first thing done on many cars but you guys are saying they're not worth the expense and I'd be better off buying a panel filter like the one @Ollieeee (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14633)  is selling?

 When I had my MR2 Turbo a few years back the intake and intercooler made a massive difference so what's the difference?

I suspect either the MR2 factory components weren't particularly good in the first place, or the MR2 head flows more than the VW one does.

What difference did you find, out of interest, with no other changes?


I had a 3" exhaust, an intake and knocked the cat out but getting a new downpipe adds more bhp I believe and boost turned up, can't remember how much but it wasn't anywhere close to max plus I never fitted a better intercooler and got 285bhp on a Dyno run from a quoted 245 as standard and a personal best of 13.2 at santa pod, although I believe I could have got under 13 secs and I had to prove this time before it went on the MR2 forum so I'm not making it up so pretty decent gains for not much outlay and modification, such a fantastic and fast engine/car even standard they are around 5.2 0-60 , I had some fun  a few times with a local Z3m 320+ bhp as standard I believe on a private road and he couldn't get away from me and I was actually catching him so easy "first" upgrades as I said made a massive difference that's why I asked because of my experience.

Also the chargecooler from the celica gt4 made even more difference than a performance intercooler.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on November 30, 2016, 10:58:29 am
Good stuff!

I agree with you on chargecoolers.  Fit the right one and they can be way better than air-air intercoolers, and considerably more responsive (close to zero lag, depending on turbo sizing).   The only down side is the extra baggage of carrying water around.  I had a setup that had a 3 gallon tank in the boot  :grin:  It was insanely good at keeping intake temps down though.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Speedy83 on December 11, 2016, 09:10:53 pm
Will there be any differens at all between going with a pipercross or ITG panel filter or are they pretty much same thing?

I know a panel filter per se wont give much power but anyway.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on December 11, 2016, 09:31:05 pm
Will there be any differens at all between going with a pipercross or ITG panel filter or are they pretty much same thing?

I know a panel filter per se wont give much power but anyway.
Not discernably. You might notice a difference going from a filthy clogged up panel to a new one, but between brands I'd put my money on the differences being miniscule.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Mackaa-123 on December 14, 2016, 10:23:20 pm
I was planning on buying a ram air induction kit, but a friend who does remaps told me that some gtis and hatchbacks hes had at his had just been smothered by the i inductions kits. Are they even worth buying?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Charlie23 on December 15, 2016, 03:01:27 am
Just to add my 2pence worth that might help out.

I'm APR stage 1 and had a Evoms fitted a day after the map and the car sounded great but couldn't really say it made a difference but the noise felt like it was. Anyway I started to get compressor surge had it Rolling road etc etc and spoke to a very clever guy that told me I was getting to much cold air, that's what's causing your surge sound between 2500 & 4000 rpm.

After a few days I though nah can't be right. Few more days passed with it playing on my mind, to much cold air I didn't want to believe it, so I took the Evoms off and put standard air box back on and bought a Pipper Cross panel filter. All I can say is wow, the difference is unbelievable.

No more surge, no more stupid boost leak sound, the revs pic up a lot faster and the car just feel and seems to run a whole lot better. And put a smile back on my face.

The very clever guy I spoke to tunes cars for Racing etc and fair play knew his stuff, and told ,me the only way you will benefit from a CAI is when you get to stage 2+ as the map, fueling etc all alter so the extra air is needed, but at stage one its not worth the money and also alters the performance.

I know some people might not agree but that just my view and my findings from having Evoms and then Pannel filter so thought it might help someone out.  :happy2:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on December 15, 2016, 10:44:48 am
Just to add my 2pence worth that might help out.

I'm APR stage 1 and had a Evoms fitted a day after the map and the car sounded great but couldn't really say it made a difference but the noise felt like it was. Anyway I started to get compressor surge had it Rolling road etc etc and spoke to a very clever guy that told me I was getting to much cold air, that's what's causing your surge sound between 2500 & 4000 rpm.

After a few days I though nah can't be right. Few more days passed with it playing on my mind, to much cold air I didn't want to believe it, so I took the Evoms off and put standard air box back on and bought a Pipper Cross panel filter. All I can say is wow, the difference is unbelievable.

No more surge, no more stupid boost leak sound, the revs pic up a lot faster and the car just feel and seems to run a whole lot better. And put a smile back on my face.

The very clever guy I spoke to tunes cars for Racing etc and fair play knew his stuff, and told ,me the only way you will benefit from a CAI is when you get to stage 2+ as the map, fueling etc all alter so the extra air is needed, but at stage one its not worth the money and also alters the performance.

I know some people might not agree but that just my view and my findings from having Evoms and then Pannel filter so thought it might help someone out.  :happy2:

It doesn't surprise me to be honest.  Factory cars are tuned from intake snorkel to tailpipe as one big symbiotic whole.  One thing affects the other, sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way, but all things are considered to give the best compromise.  A good example of this was in my R32 days, binning the OEM cats absolutely killed the bottom end torque.   VW factored in that 'restriction' to the overall tuning.  It's hard to believe such a simple change can have such an adverse affect, but fluid dynamics must rate second to brain surgery and rocket science for complexity.

It's often reported that K04s surge around 23-34psi at 3000rpm, just because: it's what they do, but no one ever says with what intake or exhaust.  So thanks for bringing some extra info to the table :)  Mine doesn't surge either and I also run the factory air box.  I am extremely reluctant to change it, even with the TTE420 upgrade I've got planned.

The thing that separates the good aftermarket parts from the bad ones is R&D.  TyrolSport and VW Racingline are good examples of decent R&D.  Expensive, sure, but they don't take anything away from the car's original character, only improve on it.

Glad you've found a compromise you're happy with  :happy2:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on December 15, 2016, 10:46:50 pm
I can't say I am experiencing any negative effects running a Revo Intake, I am a big fan of running the OE Airbox and have done on previous cars but on the Golf R I plan on going beyond Stage 1 and so the Airbox has had to go.

I saw an Audi S3 8P in at R-Tech recently for a Stage 2 Map, Hardware wise it had a Full BCS Turbo Back Exhaust but was running the stock Airbox. It made 317BHP & 332LB/FT.

Another S3, Similar car but Stage 1 with the Pre-Cat removed and running a Revo Intake....330BHP & 338LB/FT.

Niki said that the Hardware was holding the Stage 2 powered car back, It should have been around the 340BHP mark.

I know they are different cars and not all cars perform the same.

If I could have got away with keeping the stock airbox and going Stage 2 or 2+ then I would have but it will become a Major restriction at those levels.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 15, 2016, 11:31:49 pm
Now I'm not feeling that bad for the 335,5 CV and around 337 lbft my engine makes with the octane booster and ITG panel filter, full 3" TBE and a LOBA HPFP.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on December 16, 2016, 09:52:03 am
I can't say I am experiencing any negative effects running a Revo Intake, I am a big fan of running the OE Airbox and have done on previous cars but on the Golf R I plan on going beyond Stage 1 and so the Airbox has had to go.

I saw an Audi S3 8P in at R-Tech recently for a Stage 2 Map, Hardware wise it had a Full BCS Turbo Back Exhaust but was running the stock Airbox. It made 317BHP & 332LB/FT.

Another S3, Similar car but Stage 1 with the Pre-Cat removed and running a Revo Intake....330BHP & 338LB/FT.

Niki said that the Hardware was holding the Stage 2 powered car back, It should have been around the 340BHP mark.

I know they are different cars and not all cars perform the same.

If I could have got away with keeping the stock airbox and going Stage 2 or 2+ then I would have but it will become a Major restriction at those levels.

Is the airbox bad on the Golf R then?  I've seen a few videos on shopdap.com of various MK7 upgrades and they look pretty decent!

Tbh, that is just one tuners findings and it kind of puts into debate as to whether or not a full 3" TBE is worth it if S3 #1 made less power than S3 #2 with a factory exhaust  :smiley:   And our resident Mr Shoduchi has 340hp from the factory airbox  :smiley:   And let's not forget, the difference between S3 #1 and S3 #2 is only about 5%.   There would be no difference on the road between the 2 cars, but some people do rather get hung up on the peak hp numbers  :smiley: 

Did the Stage 2 car have a Loba pump and what boost pressure is R-Tech Stage 2? Is the S3 airbox the same as the Golf one?  I can't see it holding back the power that much.  Something else is required on that car I'd say, but interesting info all the same!

I'd love put Racingline's intake claim of +25hp to the test on my car, but it's a £450 experiment I can't afford at the moment!
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 16, 2016, 10:06:36 am
@Pudding (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) Don't worry about testing the VWR intake, it's my next mod along with a lighter engine pulley.

A stage 2 tune doesn't require an upgraded HPFP. Not sure what boost levels R-Tech usually uses for stage 2 but I've seen stage 2+ maps going up to 1.7-1.8 bar around 4500-5000 rpm. For those tunes I consider the OEM air box restrictive. AFAIK all those engine covers air boxes are equivalent. Just the TTS/R32/TTRS use a bigger air box on the side of the engine.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on December 16, 2016, 10:34:48 am
@Pudding (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) Don't worry about testing the VWR intake, it's my next mod along with a lighter engine pulley.

A stage 2 tune doesn't require an upgraded HPFP. Not sure what boost levels R-Tech usually uses for stage 2 but I've seen stage 2+ maps going up to 1.7-1.8 bar around 4500-5000 rpm. For those tunes I consider the OEM air box restrictive. AFAIK all those engine covers air boxes are equivalent. Just the TTS/R32/TTRS use a bigger air box on the side of the engine.

Cool, I look forward to seeing the results.  It is one of the best ones on the market imo, if not THE best.  I know it will free off some top end power, but I'm more interested in the noise levels and if it affects the off boost responsiveness.

I think each engine dictates it's own fuelling requirements.  Mine wouldn't get past 280hp without a HPFP with a 1.4 bar tune. It threw low rail pressure faults and lambda was pegged out at +25%.  That was with a new OEM LPFP too.  My tuner found some cars go well past 300hp with the standard pump, and some don't. There's no pattern to it, not even with brand new OEM pumps. 
1.8 bar! That's a lot for a 100K+ mile old standard turbo, but agreed, the airbox would probably hold it back a bit at that kind of boost. 
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on December 16, 2016, 11:04:16 am
I can't say I am experiencing any negative effects running a Revo Intake, I am a big fan of running the OE Airbox and have done on previous cars but on the Golf R I plan on going beyond Stage 1 and so the Airbox has had to go.

I saw an Audi S3 8P in at R-Tech recently for a Stage 2 Map, Hardware wise it had a Full BCS Turbo Back Exhaust but was running the stock Airbox. It made 317BHP & 332LB/FT.

Another S3, Similar car but Stage 1 with the Pre-Cat removed and running a Revo Intake....330BHP & 338LB/FT.

Niki said that the Hardware was holding the Stage 2 powered car back, It should have been around the 340BHP mark.

I know they are different cars and not all cars perform the same.

If I could have got away with keeping the stock airbox and going Stage 2 or 2+ then I would have but it will become a Major restriction at those levels.

Is the airbox bad on the Golf R then?  I've seen a few videos on shopdap.com of various MK7 upgrades and they look pretty decent!

Tbh, that is just one tuners findings and it kind of puts into debate as to whether or not a full 3" TBE is worth it if S3 #1 made less power than S3 #2 with a factory exhaust  :smiley:   And our resident Mr Shoduchi has 340hp from the factory airbox  :smiley:   And let's not forget, the difference between S3 #1 and S3 #2 is only about 5%.   There would be no difference on the road between the 2 cars, but some people do rather get hung up on the peak hp numbers  :smiley: 

Did the Stage 2 car have a Loba pump and what boost pressure is R-Tech Stage 2? Is the S3 airbox the same as the Golf one?  I can't see it holding back the power that much.  Something else is required on that car I'd say, but interesting info all the same!

I'd love put Racingline's intake claim of +25hp to the test on my car, but it's a £450 experiment I can't afford at the moment!

Peak numbers are of no relevance to me whatsover, It is all about how the car drives on the road. Also I would rather fit an item of Hardware even if its not required but aids flow or fuelling and gives more headroom/safety when tuning.

The Airbox on the MK6 Golf R is the same item fitted to just about all of the TFSI range, I am not a Tuner, I don't do any mapping so I cannot gather any real data and ascertain at what point the Stock Airbox becomes a restriction! Has anyone actually fitted Stage 2+ Hardware minus the Intake on a K04 powered car and done back to back Rolling Road testing?

I can only go off....

1. Rolling Road figures I see on a day to day basis at various Tuners at given Stage's and for given Hardware, Obviously I know that in an ideal world 3 cars with all the same hardware and same software should make the same numbers but in reality each car is different. Also that a car with less Hardware can make similar if not more than a car with a full shopping list of parts fitted.

You have to also factor that just because a car can make a certain amount of Power/Torque with Stock hardware fitted does not mean it is an optimum set-up and ideal long term or when driven hard.

2. By going on various tuners websites and looking at what hardware they recommend based on their many hours of R&D when developing their Software.

Findings below are based on my own car, MK6 Golf R K04....

APR's website...

APR’s Stage I ECU Upgrade is designed for vehicles with little to no modification. Expect higher peak numbers of 310 horsepower and 311 ft-lbs of torque, but also gains of up to +57 horsepower and +58 ft-lbs through the power band.

When running the intake specific software with a full high flow intake, more gains can be had. Expect higher peak numbers of 337 horsepower and 309 ft-lbs of torque, but also gains of up to +72 horsepower and +61 ft-lbs through the power band.


Revo...

Stage 2 Performance Software has been specifically developed to attain the best possible performance from the 2.0TFSI K04 with a bolt on performance exhaust and quality cold air intake. Stage 2 software is boost, fuelling and timing adjustable with slightly more flexibility than Stage 1 allowing the vehicle to be setup to suit the fuel quality, driving conditions and driver preferences. 2.0TFSI K04 Stage 2 software is specifically tuned to suit the limitations of the standard high pressure fuel pump limiting the mid-range and giving a fantastic linear power delivery.

GIAC...

Recommend an Intake at Stage 1.

R-Tech...

BYD – BWJ – BHZ – CDL Engines

MIN Requirements for STAGE 2 POWER R-Tech remap session.

Full High Flow Exhaust, Sports cat or Decat Exhaust System, High Flow Cold Air Induction Kit, 5w 40 Oil, Vpower – Tesco 99 or any 98+ Ron Fuel


All tuners pretty much singing the same song that an Intake is required on a K04 powered car when going beyond Stage 1.

Not trying to teach you to suck eggs by the way!

At Stage 1 which is circa 300BHP give or take and depending on the Software and how healthy the car is then the Stock Airbox is fine, It has also been shown by others such as Shoduchi that it can go beyond that on a K04 powered car and that is great. I have made 315BHP on my last ED30 with a Pre-Cat Delete and the Stock Airbox with a Panel Filter, It is doubtful I would have gianed much by fitting an Intake at this level.

However with my current car I intend on going further with Tuning and Stage 2 is going to be the minimum which is circa 340BHP & 340LB/FT of Torque with an R-Tech Map going on what other cars have made recently so I wanted to ensure I have the best flowing set up possible. Hence why I fitted a Revo Intake.

If the Stock Airbox could support 400BHP comfortably I would without a doubt retain it and would never fit an Intake, However I don't want to be a Guinea Pig and turn up on the day with only half the recommend Hardware fitted expecting the car to make the numbers.

So I fit what my tuner recommends for the given stage of tune I am aiming for  :happy2:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 16, 2016, 01:23:25 pm
My tuner always said to me that the fuel quality is my engine's biggest limitation, hence the search for a good octane booster to use during my track days. I could buy racing fuel with an higher octane level but it's expensive and more troublesome that adding a booster. From my tuner's experience I'd get +20 HP with the racing fuel and the stock airbox wouldn't make much difference. I'm trying to see if the VWR intake does really unleashes more power at higher rpm, that is what I use more on track days. My tuner doubts that it will help significantly in my car.

As a side note, I don't need more power during daily driving than what I currently have. I can only really benefit from more power during track days. :smiley:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on December 16, 2016, 04:25:39 pm
I can't say I am experiencing any negative effects running a Revo Intake, I am a big fan of running the OE Airbox and have done on previous cars but on the Golf R I plan on going beyond Stage 1 and so the Airbox has had to go.

I saw an Audi S3 8P in at R-Tech recently for a Stage 2 Map, Hardware wise it had a Full BCS Turbo Back Exhaust but was running the stock Airbox. It made 317BHP & 332LB/FT.

Another S3, Similar car but Stage 1 with the Pre-Cat removed and running a Revo Intake....330BHP & 338LB/FT.

Niki said that the Hardware was holding the Stage 2 powered car back, It should have been around the 340BHP mark.

I know they are different cars and not all cars perform the same.

If I could have got away with keeping the stock airbox and going Stage 2 or 2+ then I would have but it will become a Major restriction at those levels.

Is the airbox bad on the Golf R then?  I've seen a few videos on shopdap.com of various MK7 upgrades and they look pretty decent!

Tbh, that is just one tuners findings and it kind of puts into debate as to whether or not a full 3" TBE is worth it if S3 #1 made less power than S3 #2 with a factory exhaust  :smiley:   And our resident Mr Shoduchi has 340hp from the factory airbox  :smiley:   And let's not forget, the difference between S3 #1 and S3 #2 is only about 5%.   There would be no difference on the road between the 2 cars, but some people do rather get hung up on the peak hp numbers  :smiley: 

Did the Stage 2 car have a Loba pump and what boost pressure is R-Tech Stage 2? Is the S3 airbox the same as the Golf one?  I can't see it holding back the power that much.  Something else is required on that car I'd say, but interesting info all the same!

I'd love put Racingline's intake claim of +25hp to the test on my car, but it's a £450 experiment I can't afford at the moment!

Peak numbers are of no relevance to me whatsover, It is all about how the car drives on the road. Also I would rather fit an item of Hardware even if its not required but aids flow or fuelling and gives more headroom/safety when tuning.

The Airbox on the MK6 Golf R is the same item fitted to just about all of the TFSI range, I am not a Tuner, I don't do any mapping so I cannot gather any real data and ascertain at what point the Stock Airbox becomes a restriction! Has anyone actually fitted Stage 2+ Hardware minus the Intake on a K04 powered car and done back to back Rolling Road testing?

I can only go off....

1. Rolling Road figures I see on a day to day basis at various Tuners at given Stage's and for given Hardware, Obviously I know that in an ideal world 3 cars with all the same hardware and same software should make the same numbers but in reality each car is different. Also that a car with less Hardware can make similar if not more than a car with a full shopping list of parts fitted.

You have to also factor that just because a car can make a certain amount of Power/Torque with Stock hardware fitted does not mean it is an optimum set-up and ideal long term or when driven hard.

2. By going on various tuners websites and looking at what hardware they recommend based on their many hours of R&D when developing their Software.

Findings below are based on my own car, MK6 Golf R K04....

APR's website...

APR’s Stage I ECU Upgrade is designed for vehicles with little to no modification. Expect higher peak numbers of 310 horsepower and 311 ft-lbs of torque, but also gains of up to +57 horsepower and +58 ft-lbs through the power band.

When running the intake specific software with a full high flow intake, more gains can be had. Expect higher peak numbers of 337 horsepower and 309 ft-lbs of torque, but also gains of up to +72 horsepower and +61 ft-lbs through the power band.


Revo...

Stage 2 Performance Software has been specifically developed to attain the best possible performance from the 2.0TFSI K04 with a bolt on performance exhaust and quality cold air intake. Stage 2 software is boost, fuelling and timing adjustable with slightly more flexibility than Stage 1 allowing the vehicle to be setup to suit the fuel quality, driving conditions and driver preferences. 2.0TFSI K04 Stage 2 software is specifically tuned to suit the limitations of the standard high pressure fuel pump limiting the mid-range and giving a fantastic linear power delivery.

GIAC...

Recommend an Intake at Stage 1.

R-Tech...

BYD – BWJ – BHZ – CDL Engines

MIN Requirements for STAGE 2 POWER R-Tech remap session.

Full High Flow Exhaust, Sports cat or Decat Exhaust System, High Flow Cold Air Induction Kit, 5w 40 Oil, Vpower – Tesco 99 or any 98+ Ron Fuel


All tuners pretty much singing the same song that an Intake is required on a K04 powered car when going beyond Stage 1.

Not trying to teach you to suck eggs by the way!

At Stage 1 which is circa 300BHP give or take and depending on the Software and how healthy the car is then the Stock Airbox is fine, It has also been shown by others such as Shoduchi that it can go beyond that on a K04 powered car and that is great. I have made 315BHP on my last ED30 with a Pre-Cat Delete and the Stock Airbox with a Panel Filter, It is doubtful I would have gianed much by fitting an Intake at this level.

However with my current car I intend on going further with Tuning and Stage 2 is going to be the minimum which is circa 340BHP & 340LB/FT of Torque with an R-Tech Map going on what other cars have made recently so I wanted to ensure I have the best flowing set up possible. Hence why I fitted a Revo Intake.

If the Stock Airbox could support 400BHP comfortably I would without a doubt retain it and would never fit an Intake, However I don't want to be a Guinea Pig and turn up on the day with only half the recommend Hardware fitted expecting the car to make the numbers.

So I fit what my tuner recommends for the given stage of tune I am aiming for  :happy2:

Ah OK, you've got the 6R!

Maybe we should take the MAF readings before and after the fitment of an intake!   I'll be running my TTE420 with the standard airbox  :grin:   Well, to begin with at least!  I like doing tuning one thing at a time and to see what the differences are  :smiley:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on December 17, 2016, 03:54:56 pm
Ah OK, you've got the 6R!

Maybe we should take the MAF readings before and after the fitment of an intake!   I'll be running my TTE420 with the standard airbox  :grin:   Well, to begin with at least!  I like doing tuning one thing at a time and to see what the differences are  :smiley:

Yes the 6R, I think the VWR kit is probably one of the best available and if my Revo ever gets annoying then I would consider going for the VWR one. From what I have read the Revo is a very good Intake with decent MAF scaling.

Not sure who does your mapping but I doubt they will be happy going for 400BHP on the Stock Airbox, Unless you are just going to run the turbo as it is and then map the car once you have fitted an aftermarket Intake?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on December 19, 2016, 10:24:26 am
Ah OK, you've got the 6R!

Maybe we should take the MAF readings before and after the fitment of an intake!   I'll be running my TTE420 with the standard airbox  :grin:   Well, to begin with at least!  I like doing tuning one thing at a time and to see what the differences are  :smiley:

Yes the 6R, I think the VWR kit is probably one of the best available and if my Revo ever gets annoying then I would consider going for the VWR one. From what I have read the Revo is a very good Intake with decent MAF scaling.

Not sure who does your mapping but I doubt they will be happy going for 400BHP on the Stock Airbox, Unless you are just going to run the turbo as it is and then map the car once you have fitted an aftermarket Intake?

Yeah the Revo is well liked with tuners as it frees off the top end a bit.  Open intakes just aren't my bag though.  Too noisy.

I'm not aiming for 400hp.  350ish initially, just to get it installed and running reliably.  Then I will look into the Wavetrac diff and intake.  By that time I reckon VWR's own remaps will be available, which I might look into. 
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on December 19, 2016, 07:28:49 pm
Ah OK, you've got the 6R!

Maybe we should take the MAF readings before and after the fitment of an intake!   I'll be running my TTE420 with the standard airbox  :grin:   Well, to begin with at least!  I like doing tuning one thing at a time and to see what the differences are  :smiley:

Yes the 6R, I think the VWR kit is probably one of the best available and if my Revo ever gets annoying then I would consider going for the VWR one. From what I have read the Revo is a very good Intake with decent MAF scaling.

Not sure who does your mapping but I doubt they will be happy going for 400BHP on the Stock Airbox, Unless you are just going to run the turbo as it is and then map the car once you have fitted an aftermarket Intake?

Yeah the Revo is well liked with tuners as it frees off the top end a bit.  Open intakes just aren't my bag though.  Too noisy.

I'm not aiming for 400hp.  350ish initially, just to get it installed and running reliably.  Then I will look into the Wavetrac diff and intake.  By that time I reckon VWR's own remaps will be available, which I might look into.

I am pressuming you are in the U.K?

Ifso then I would highly recommend  R-Tech, Niki has mapped many TTE420 Cars with fantastic results  :happy2:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on December 20, 2016, 03:26:50 pm
Yeah I'm in the UK!

I already have a custom dyno map, so will probably just get it tweaked accordingly  :smiley:

VWR's own ECU remaps sound intriguing though, but will probably be around £1000 I reckon!
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on December 20, 2016, 05:05:38 pm
Yeah I'm in the UK!

I already have a custom dyno map, so will probably just get it tweaked accordingly  :smiley:

VWR's own ECU remaps sound intriguing though, but will probably be around £1000 I reckon!

Custom Dyno map by whom?

The VWR Maps/Software will almost certainly be written by one of the well known tuning companies! Probably Revo or the likes.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on December 20, 2016, 05:06:14 pm
Yeah I'm in the UK!

I already have a custom dyno map, so will probably just get it tweaked accordingly  :smiley:

VWR's own ECU remaps sound intriguing though, but will probably be around £1000 I reckon!
I saw that on the VWR website recently. Made me wonder who's doing these maps. As in VWR are well known for 'procuring' a product and sticking VWR tax on it.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on December 20, 2016, 05:07:07 pm
And.... Bonelorry beat me to it!
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on December 20, 2016, 07:38:13 pm
And.... Bonelorry beat me to it!

I actully enquired about an Edition 30 ealier this Year which had a Volkswagen Racing Remap fitted and a Volkswagen Racing Exhaust.

Map was unknown but the Exhaust was a Cat-Back Milltek.

The VWR Panel Filter is made by ITG, Not sure about the VWR Intake though?

Thread regarding the maps from 2011...

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26954.0.html

Not knocking VWR products, Rate them highly but obviously Software wise i am very particular about what I use!
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 20, 2016, 07:52:45 pm
And.... Bonelorry beat me to it!

I actully enquired about an Edition 30 ealier this Year which had a Volkswagen Racing Remap fitted and a Volkswagen Racing Exhaust.

Map was unknown but the Exhaust was a Cat-Back Milltek.

The VWR Panel Filter is made by ITG, Not sure about the VWR Intake though?

Thread regarding the maps from 2011...

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26954.0.html

Not knocking VWR products, Rate them highly but obviously Software wise i am very particular about what I use!

The closed cone intake is also made by ITG but with different pipe work:

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fdd207%2Fboxstaman%2F7e031479132807cd9177e1efb4ea363a.jpg&hash=9d033fca1c3ddc5062d4decf054378a111905542)
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on December 20, 2016, 08:06:30 pm

The closed cone intake is also made by ITG but with different pipe work:

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fdd207%2Fboxstaman%2F7e031479132807cd9177e1efb4ea363a.jpg&hash=9d033fca1c3ddc5062d4decf054378a111905542)

Also available with the less jointed pipework too....

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=98172.0
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 20, 2016, 08:08:27 pm
I couldn't find one with the same pipe work. Nice! :drinking:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on December 20, 2016, 08:51:53 pm
Yeah I'm in the UK!

I already have a custom dyno map, so will probably just get it tweaked accordingly  :smiley:

VWR's own ECU remaps sound intriguing though, but will probably be around £1000 I reckon!


Custom Dyno map by whom?

The VWR Maps/Software will almost certainly be written by one of the well known tuning companies! Probably Revo or the likes.

Stealth Racing.  He'll be able to map a TTE no problem  :happy2:

That's weird about VWR remaps dating back to 2011. Maybe they used to resell other people's work but I get the impression it's all their own work this time around and isn't available yet. Just says "coming soon" on their website.

They've used wording like 'from scratch' using OEM mapping strategies with factory component protection etc etc. If that's true then it means they bought a 'virgin' ECU (i.e no software on it) from VW and started from the beginning. Highly unlikely!
The factory mapping is done by a huge team of Bosch calibration engineers, so again, I can't see them having access to that kind of resource.

We'll have to see, but I'm interested if their claims are true!
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on December 22, 2016, 11:16:19 am
Awesome have got a sale on the VWR intakes at the moment if anyone's interested.

Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 22, 2016, 12:02:58 pm
Awesome have got a sale on the VWR intakes at the moment if anyone's interested.
The sale is even better than what I got on the Black Friday. :surprised:

I got a VWR intake for K04 for £369.20 and now it's £354.24. :doh:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on December 22, 2016, 12:12:06 pm
Awesome have got a sale on the VWR intakes at the moment if anyone's interested.
The sale is even better than what I got on the Black Friday. :surprised:

I got a VWR intake for K04 for £369.20 and now it's £354.24. :doh:

Oh dear!  I very nearly clicked 'Add to basket' but I need to sort some other things out first!
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on December 22, 2016, 12:38:11 pm
Tempted to buy a VWR Intake today and sell the Revo  :thinking:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 22, 2016, 01:17:32 pm
Tempted to buy a VWR Intake today and sell the Revo  :thinking:
You won't get a better performance from it, just less noise. If that's what you're looking for like me, I'm sure you can sell your Revo easily since it's one of the best. :smiley:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on December 22, 2016, 02:20:59 pm
The only thing that puts me off the VWR is people (inc a review on Awesome's site) mentioning it breaks off a plastic coolant elbow if you're not careful, and it also rubs on other engine parts.  It also lacks a flexible coupling to stop the engine movement from jerking it around and banging on things.  A straight bit of silicon has practically zero give in it, hence why OEMs always used kinked coolant hoses or flex couplings.

If / when I get one (based on Shoduchi's upcoming review  :smiley: ) I will be getting something like this to attach between the grille snorkel and the airbox.  Or maybe use the existing OEM flexible coupling if it's possible.

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.hisupplier.com%2Fvar%2FuserImages%2F2011-06%2F22%2F162950167_rubber_bellow_rubber_intake_hose_s.jpg&hash=6262e4eac2d8c84d882d6a96a3d31c5c12aff50e)



Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on December 22, 2016, 03:29:37 pm
Tempted to buy a VWR Intake today and sell the Revo  :thinking:
You won't get a better performance from it, just less noise. If that's what you're looking for like me, I'm sure you can sell your Revo easily since it's one of the best. :smiley:

Changed my mind, The additional cost will pay for 2 x Michelin PS4's. I was being silly  :doh:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on December 22, 2016, 04:14:18 pm
Tempted to buy a VWR Intake today and sell the Revo  :thinking:
You won't get a better performance from it, just less noise. If that's what you're looking for like me, I'm sure you can sell your Revo easily since it's one of the best. :smiley:

Changed my mind, The additional cost will pay for 2 x Michelin PS4's. I was being silly  :doh:

I'd rank tyres slightly ahead of an intake on the priority front  :smiley:  Good choice of rubber too  :happy2:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on December 22, 2016, 04:51:54 pm
Tempted to buy a VWR Intake today and sell the Revo  :thinking:
You won't get a better performance from it, just less noise. If that's what you're looking for like me, I'm sure you can sell your Revo easily since it's one of the best. :smiley:

Changed my mind, The additional cost will pay for 2 x Michelin PS4's. I was being silly  :doh:

I'd rank tyres slightly ahead of an intake on the priority front  :smiley:  Good choice of rubber too  :happy2:

There is nothing wrong with the Revo at all, Just saw the offer on the VWR and half considered it but would be totally bonkers of me to do it.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: grey golfster on December 22, 2016, 06:13:14 pm
Changed my mind, The additional cost will pay for 2 x Michelin PS4's. I was being silly  :doh:

I've got a VWR intake (Yes - it did break the coolant elbow thingy/bit during a hooning) it suits me/my style/use well, but was expensive, and you would hope for better!

...as well as Four PS 4's ... :signLOL:

My car still looks like sh1t compared to yours tho Boney   :wink:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 22, 2016, 10:59:28 pm
Went today to get the car tested on the dyno again after fitting the VWR intake and the Go Fast Bits lightweight crank pulley.

Now it measured 355,6 CV and 337 lbft, so about +20 CV and the same torque compared to last time, at 15ºC of ambient temp and 27ºC of intake temp. :pomppomp:

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fmm475%2FShoduchi%2F4._MB_Power_3.jpg&hash=912ea8b2599229bd77cf178e2f980d36505721d1)

The intake really made a good difference, not just on the butt dyno. :grin:

Not sure what was the contribution of the lightweight crank pulley to the final result.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Dan_FR on December 23, 2016, 02:48:09 am
Pulley will make sod all difference except throw the engine balance out

And people say intakes are a waste of money......  :signLOL: As you cab tell I gave up arguing this point a few pages back :grin:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 23, 2016, 08:26:04 am
Pulley will make sod all difference except throw the engine balance out (...)

This is the manufacturer's product information:
Quote
Best Lightweight Pulley Kit for VW Golf GTI Mk5 2.0t 04-09: The Go Fast Bits Golf mk5 crank pulley-non underdrive
GFB's lightweight non-underdrive crank pulley (part number 2012) is made from anodized aircraft-grade billet 6061-T6 aluminium and offers sharper throttle response and faster acceleration. Kit includes: crank pulley, 6 x bolts, 6 x washers (original factory belt is used).

GFB pulleys are designed to improve acceleration by reducing the rotational mass (inertia) on the crankshaft. The effect is similar to a lighter flywheel, and the engine feels more lively and willing to rev.

We know that people are sometimes concerned about possible adverse effects of lightweight pulleys, but rest assured we have done our homework! Whilst it is true that some engine types do suffer harmonic issues from lightweight pulleys, we steer clear of those. The kits we release are thoroughly application tested and do NOT cause engine damage in the short or long term.

Our products are manufactured in Australia and the company is accredited to ISO 9001, which ensures our products meet stringent quality requirements at all stages of manufacture.

GFB have Australia's best performance turbo management solutions. See more of our range at www.gfb.com.au.

This is what Rotamass states the following about their lightweight crank pulley for the 2.0 TSI engine:
Quote
There is a common misconception that the factory crank pulley is a harmonic balancer which is not the case. The Volkswagen/Audi TSI engine's rotating section is fully balanced from the factory prior to the accessory drive pulley being installed. Since our Rotamass Lightweight Crank Pulley is precision balanced by both design and manufacturing, it performs nearly identical to the factory part it replaces. With our test engine, we removed the crankshaft prior to the installation of the pulley, measured the bearings and crankshaft journals. During all of our testing there was absolutely zero signs of abnormal engine wear.

I suppose the TFSI engine works the same. The OEM part didn't look like having any damper included.

And this is more information about the GFB crank pulley but for the BRZ/FR-S engine:
Quote
WHY NO HARMONIC BALANCER?

A better name for a harmonic balancer would be "torsional dampener" since its main task is to absorb the rotational pulses inflicted on the crankshaft by the pistons. Most often it is incorporated into the crank pulley by attaching the outer belt drive ring to the inner by means of vulcanized rubber. At the right RPM, it is possible for a resonant frequency to be set up torsionally on the crankshaft. Resonant frequency occurs when the pulses of the engine correspond with the natural frequency of the crankshaft and it ancillary components. However, since factory pulleys are often comparatively heavy (reasons for this are described later) it is actually the large mass (and therefore inertia) of the factory harmonic balancer and flywheel that will help to excite this natural frequency. So by dramatically reducing the weight and inertia of the crank pulley, the natural frequency of the crankshaft is shifted and its ability to self-excite is greatly reduced. So in fact it is the harmonic balancer's own weight that necessitates the dampening, and since the weight of a GFB crank pulley is typically about 20% of the factory component it cannot supply an exciting force significant enough to damage the crankshaft.

An opinion often expressed is "if the manufacturer put it there, it must be there for a reason". However, if you look at it from the car manufacturer's point of view, casting pulleys from steel is very cheap and easy, because they can be produced in large numbers and there is no waste (as opposed to machining them from billet). But because the resulting pulley weighs significantly more than one made from aluminium alloy, it requires dampening.

Manufacturers will always build cars (even high performance cars) to suit the widest possible selection of driving scenarios and drivers, which means there are always compromises. The weight of the flywheel and pulley also affect how fast the revs drop between gear shifts, and a production car is designed to only allow the revs to drop fast enough for average shifts. If you hurry the shift the revs will be too high for the next gear, resulting in a sharp jerk as the momentum of the engine transmits through the drivetrain. Reducing the engines' inertia with a lightweight pulley kit allows faster and smoother shifting.

When looking at high performance engines such as those found in Honda VTEC equipped cars and the S2000, it is obvious that manufacturers do understand the benefits of reducing engine inertia, and have utilized lightweight pulleys to help the power output and responsiveness without the use of a harmonic balancer.

However, this is not the case for all engines, many of them do require the use of the harmonic balancer to prevent failure. Skylines with the RB20, 25 and 26 are a good example of this, which is why we don't make a pulley kit for them. The pulley kits we do make are for engines that do not rely on the balancer to any significant degree.

Are you still sure that my lightweight crank pulley which is also a balanced part has thrown my engine out of balance? :thinking:

(...)And people say intakes are a waste of money......  :signLOL: As you cab tell I gave up arguing this point a few pages back :grin:

Now I can say for sure that this engine likes a good intake. I wasn't expecting +20 CV from the it, to be honest. :innocent:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on December 23, 2016, 11:58:22 am
Pulley will make sod all difference except throw the engine balance out (...)

This is the manufacturer's product information:
Quote
Best Lightweight Pulley Kit for VW Golf GTI Mk5 2.0t 04-09: The Go Fast Bits Golf mk5 crank pulley-non underdrive
GFB's lightweight non-underdrive crank pulley (part number 2012) is made from anodized aircraft-grade billet 6061-T6 aluminium and offers sharper throttle response and faster acceleration. Kit includes: crank pulley, 6 x bolts, 6 x washers (original factory belt is used).

GFB pulleys are designed to improve acceleration by reducing the rotational mass (inertia) on the crankshaft. The effect is similar to a lighter flywheel, and the engine feels more lively and willing to rev.

We know that people are sometimes concerned about possible adverse effects of lightweight pulleys, but rest assured we have done our homework! Whilst it is true that some engine types do suffer harmonic issues from lightweight pulleys, we steer clear of those. The kits we release are thoroughly application tested and do NOT cause engine damage in the short or long term.

Our products are manufactured in Australia and the company is accredited to ISO 9001, which ensures our products meet stringent quality requirements at all stages of manufacture.

GFB have Australia's best performance turbo management solutions. See more of our range at www.gfb.com.au.

This is what Rotamass states the following about their lightweight crank pulley for the 2.0 TSI engine:
Quote
There is a common misconception that the factory crank pulley is a harmonic balancer which is not the case. The Volkswagen/Audi TSI engine's rotating section is fully balanced from the factory prior to the accessory drive pulley being installed. Since our Rotamass Lightweight Crank Pulley is precision balanced by both design and manufacturing, it performs nearly identical to the factory part it replaces. With our test engine, we removed the crankshaft prior to the installation of the pulley, measured the bearings and crankshaft journals. During all of our testing there was absolutely zero signs of abnormal engine wear.

I suppose the TFSI engine works the same. The OEM part didn't look like having any damper included.

And this is more information about the GFB crank pulley but for the BRZ/FR-S engine:
Quote
WHY NO HARMONIC BALANCER?

A better name for a harmonic balancer would be "torsional dampener" since its main task is to absorb the rotational pulses inflicted on the crankshaft by the pistons. Most often it is incorporated into the crank pulley by attaching the outer belt drive ring to the inner by means of vulcanized rubber. At the right RPM, it is possible for a resonant frequency to be set up torsionally on the crankshaft. Resonant frequency occurs when the pulses of the engine correspond with the natural frequency of the crankshaft and it ancillary components. However, since factory pulleys are often comparatively heavy (reasons for this are described later) it is actually the large mass (and therefore inertia) of the factory harmonic balancer and flywheel that will help to excite this natural frequency. So by dramatically reducing the weight and inertia of the crank pulley, the natural frequency of the crankshaft is shifted and its ability to self-excite is greatly reduced. So in fact it is the harmonic balancer's own weight that necessitates the dampening, and since the weight of a GFB crank pulley is typically about 20% of the factory component it cannot supply an exciting force significant enough to damage the crankshaft.

An opinion often expressed is "if the manufacturer put it there, it must be there for a reason". However, if you look at it from the car manufacturer's point of view, casting pulleys from steel is very cheap and easy, because they can be produced in large numbers and there is no waste (as opposed to machining them from billet). But because the resulting pulley weighs significantly more than one made from aluminium alloy, it requires dampening.

Manufacturers will always build cars (even high performance cars) to suit the widest possible selection of driving scenarios and drivers, which means there are always compromises. The weight of the flywheel and pulley also affect how fast the revs drop between gear shifts, and a production car is designed to only allow the revs to drop fast enough for average shifts. If you hurry the shift the revs will be too high for the next gear, resulting in a sharp jerk as the momentum of the engine transmits through the drivetrain. Reducing the engines' inertia with a lightweight pulley kit allows faster and smoother shifting.

When looking at high performance engines such as those found in Honda VTEC equipped cars and the S2000, it is obvious that manufacturers do understand the benefits of reducing engine inertia, and have utilized lightweight pulleys to help the power output and responsiveness without the use of a harmonic balancer.

However, this is not the case for all engines, many of them do require the use of the harmonic balancer to prevent failure. Skylines with the RB20, 25 and 26 are a good example of this, which is why we don't make a pulley kit for them. The pulley kits we do make are for engines that do not rely on the balancer to any significant degree.

Are you still sure that my lightweight crank pulley which is also a balanced part has thrown my engine out of balance? :thinking:

(...)And people say intakes are a waste of money......  :signLOL: As you cab tell I gave up arguing this point a few pages back :grin:

Now I can say for sure that this engine likes a good intake. I wasn't expecting +20 CV from the it, to be honest. :innocent:

I think he means it removes the harmonic balancing (torsional vibration absorption), not the rotational balance.  Lightweight and/or under-drive pullies can be very destructive at very high rpms (7500-8000).  I've seen them destroy 1.8T blocks on track days.  You should be fine as you don't exceed 7000rpm very often?

Thanks for the intake info  :happy2:  6% gain, so true to VWR's claims but I wonder how much of that 6% was down to the pulley?  Either way, you're happy, so that's good!

Ignoring his childish "I told you so" comment, the original debate was where you get the gains, and as I predicted, you get them right at the top end, which not everyone is concerned about.  The good thing about the VWR is it doesn't take anything away low down, which is what I wanted to see, therefore it is a good one! Your plot starts at 1500rpm, which is also great.  Nearly all others start at 2500rpm.  Based on your findings, it's probably the intake I'll go for when/if I need one  :happy2:

How are the noise levels under normal driving?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 23, 2016, 01:34:10 pm
I think he means it removes the harmonic balancing (torsional vibration absorption), not the rotational balance.  Lightweight and/or under-drive pullies can be very destructive at very high rpms (7500-8000).  I've seen them destroy 1.8T blocks on track days.  You should be fine as you don't exceed 7000rpm very often?

Thanks for the intake info  :happy2:  6% gain, so true to VWR's claims but I wonder how much of that 6% was down to the pulley?  Either way, you're happy, so that's good!

Ignoring his childish "I told you so" comment, the original debate was where you get the gains, and as I predicted, you get them right at the top end, which not everyone is concerned about.  The good thing about the VWR is it doesn't take anything away low down, which is what I wanted to see, therefore it is a good one! Your plot starts at 1500rpm, which is also great.  Nearly all others start at 2500rpm.  Based on your findings, it's probably the intake I'll go for when/if I need one  :happy2:

How are the noise levels under normal driving?
I know he means the harmonic balancing. The manufacturers state that this engine doesn't use a damper so there's no problem with reducing the weight of the crank pulley.

I'm happy with the noise levels. Only higher when on WOT but it's also a deeper sound. Not annoying for me. :smiley:




Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Dan_FR on December 23, 2016, 06:22:42 pm
If you look around online, you will find the end result of what these lightweight pulleys achieve. One such example from JNL racing:
https://www.facebook.com/JNLRacing/posts/1141770932518180 (https://www.facebook.com/JNLRacing/posts/1141770932518180)

And quoting JP from JNL racing discussing the original pulley:
Quote
They are designed to cancel out secondary harmonics from combustion cycle. Remove them and the big end bearings will fail over time especially at high rpm. Will damage journal but not snap/break Forged crank from can engines.

Not one I'll be risking personally  :signLOL:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on December 23, 2016, 06:34:34 pm
Good result @Shoduchi

You'll definitely benefit the extra top end on your track days. Day to day, all you could hope for was no adverse effects at low to mid rpm, and it seems good in that respect. I wonder how much these closed ITG intakes cost before VWR got their hands on them!

As for the pulley, that's beyond my knowledge, but fingers crossed for you it doesn't cause any issues.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 23, 2016, 07:00:31 pm
If you look around online, you will find the end result of what these lightweight pulleys achieve. One such example from JNL racing:
https://www.facebook.com/JNLRacing/posts/1141770932518180 (https://www.facebook.com/JNLRacing/posts/1141770932518180)

And quoting JP from JNL racing discussing the original pulley:
Quote
They are designed to cancel out secondary harmonics from combustion cycle. Remove them and the big end bearings will fail over time especially at high rpm. Will damage journal but not snap/break Forged crank from can engines.

Not one I'll be risking personally  :signLOL:
Now I see what you mean. It's the secondary harmonics from the combustion cycle that I haven't seen mentioned before in my searches. :surprised:

Not liking it now... :sad1:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 23, 2016, 07:09:53 pm
Good result @Shoduchi

You'll definitely benefit the extra top end on your track days. Day to day, all you could hope for was no adverse effects at low to mid rpm, and it seems good in that respect. I wonder how much these closed ITG intakes cost before VWR got their hands on them!

As for the pulley, that's beyond my knowledge, but fingers crossed for you it doesn't cause any issues.
Thanks AJP! I still need to check my long term fuel trims to see if they change to a lean combustion... My tuner says that the MAF now won't read all the air that goes through the intake due to the different intake pipe cross section. He has tested plenty of aftermarkets intakes and has made a K04 reach 385 CV (with race fuel and more boost) with the factory airbox so he doesn't believe in CAI. :thinking:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on December 23, 2016, 07:32:33 pm
Good result @Shoduchi

You'll definitely benefit the extra top end on your track days. Day to day, all you could hope for was no adverse effects at low to mid rpm, and it seems good in that respect. I wonder how much these closed ITG intakes cost before VWR got their hands on them!

As for the pulley, that's beyond my knowledge, but fingers crossed for you it doesn't cause any issues.
Thanks AJP! I still need to check my long term fuel trims to see if they change to a lean combustion... My tuner says that the MAF now won't read all the air that goes through the intake due to the different intake pipe cross section. He has tested plenty of aftermarkets intakes and has made a K04 reach 385 CV (with race fuel and more boost) with the factory airbox so he doesn't believe in CAI. :thinking:
The OEM MAF pipe is oval if I remember correctly? I'm sure I've read a thread where @Dan_FR discussed experimenting with the pipe. It made interesting reading.

Hopefully the LTFTs are within range.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: andyy on December 24, 2016, 02:01:49 pm
Just wondering peoples thoughts on intakes. A lot of people say they are worth buying whilst a lot of people also say that they just suck in warm air from the engine bay and can mess with MAF. I also read that it does not matter how much air you suck in as it still has to go through the throttle body.

Every time I read up on intakes my mind gets changed from buying one to not buying one!

If you do have one which type do you guys have? the EVOMS intake seems a poplular choice.

I have a edition 30 at stage 1.
I have an EVOMS and I like it just for the noise. The 4pot's noise is a bit sh*t coming from an R32.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: spwd on December 25, 2016, 12:43:54 am
Can I just ask what they are  supposed to sound like, put my twintake on and can hear it wheezing low down but nothing higher up?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: 22 on December 25, 2016, 10:57:51 pm
I just installed my VWR on my K03. Im stage 2 as well.

I reckon there's a substantial difference over stock intake, engine feels a lot more responsive and is linear towards the redline.

Only thing I have is that annoying goose honk.  I need to get myself a DV+ to fix it.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on December 25, 2016, 11:21:12 pm
I just installed my VWR on my K03. Im stage 2 as well.

I reckon there's a substantial difference over stock intake, engine feels a lot more responsive and is linear towards the redline.

Only thing I have is that annoying goose honk.  I need to get myself a DV+ to fix it.
I'm not sure that'll eliminate the resonance you're hearing. From what I've gathered your best bet would be relocating the dv to the front, as in the k04 engines, regardless of which dv you have fitted. Let us know if it works though - the one thing putting me off an intake is that potential noise.

I'm Stage 2 k03 too, so it's encouraging to hear you felt some benefit from the VWR intake.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 27, 2016, 06:11:19 pm
The OEM MAF pipe is oval if I remember correctly? I'm sure I've read a thread where @Dan_FR (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9513) discussed experimenting with the pipe. It made interesting reading.

Hopefully the LTFTs are within range.
Well, LTFT are 3,8%, so not bad after 1 week of running the intake, I think. :smiley:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on December 27, 2016, 06:26:35 pm
The OEM MAF pipe is oval if I remember correctly? I'm sure I've read a thread where @Dan_FR (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9513) discussed experimenting with the pipe. It made interesting reading.

Hopefully the LTFTs are within range.
Well, LTFT are 3,8%, so not bad after 1 week of running the intake, I think. :smiley:
Yes, pretty close. All in all a success then?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on December 27, 2016, 07:10:06 pm
Yes, pretty close. All in all a success then?
About the intake, I think so. I'll probably revert to the OEM crank pulley just for peace of mind, though. :thinking:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: AJP on December 27, 2016, 07:12:16 pm
Yes, pretty close. All in all a success then?
About the intake, I think so. I'll probably revert to the OEM crank pulley just for peace of mind, though. :thinking:
That might be wise! Bit of a shame but I can understand it. I'd forever be thinking it might go wrong.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: spwd on December 27, 2016, 11:58:35 pm
I'm a bit concerned about the sound of mine (Forge Twintake) it just sounds like a boost leak :rolleye:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: slix on December 29, 2016, 11:58:00 am
I'm a bit concerned about the sound of mine (Forge Twintake) it just sounds like a boost leak :rolleye:

Yeah can defo hear it. Not too overly loud though. And check all clamps are done up tight and if they are then all good  :happy2: also check the very end one deep down the back of the engine as some people don't seat them flush properly.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: 76tow on January 23, 2017, 01:14:28 pm
 Wanted!! Is anyone selling an air intake?  Don't know if in right section

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on January 23, 2017, 05:36:33 pm
Wanted!! Is anyone selling an air intake?  Don't know if in right section

Sent from my SM-G361F using Tapatalk
There's a Wanted section in the forum. Not here. :P
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on January 24, 2017, 01:41:40 pm
How are you getting on with your VWR intake?   Did you experience the 500rpm drop in spool up as claimed?  :smiley:
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on January 24, 2017, 05:56:12 pm
How are you getting on with your VWR intake?   Did you experience the 500rpm drop in spool up as claimed?  :smiley:

I'm liking the intake. It sounds good and I didn't notice any problem with it. It helps on higher RPMs and the spool comes up sooner, yes. Check the dyno comparison:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fmm475%2FShoduchi%2F4._MB_Power_3.jpg&hash=912ea8b2599229bd77cf178e2f980d36505721d1)

I still would like to do a dyno like the engine is running at the moment, without the octane booster and without the lightweight engine pulley. Just to check the differences.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on January 25, 2017, 10:02:16 am
Hmmmmm...... my credit card is going to get seriously bashed this month.  I can feel it smouldering already!

Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on January 25, 2017, 06:05:17 pm
After removing the lightweight engine pulley I do notice the engine a bit more sluggish to respond to the throttle. I have to test the car now. I know the peak power is the same but the AUC might have changed a bit on the lower RPM.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on January 27, 2017, 09:29:10 am
Decided that I am removing mine and going back to the Stock Air-Box. Just ordered a VWR Panel Filter.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on January 27, 2017, 10:13:18 am
Removing your VWR intake?  How come?

I did consider a panel filter, but hmmmmm, I dunno.  I really don't like oiled filters causing MAFs to misread  :thinking:   Is the VWR a dry filter or oiled?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: bonelorry on January 27, 2017, 10:15:00 am
Removing your VWR intake?  How come?

Mine is a Revo Intake, I am not going beyond Stage 1 so it is not required.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Lucastheone92 on March 13, 2017, 02:03:15 pm
Removing your VWR intake?  How come?

Mine is a Revo Intake, I am not going beyond Stage 1 so it is not required.
Is this for sale mate?
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: mart. on March 12, 2018, 04:23:27 pm
I know its an old thread! but I've read through the post and still have a question.

I appreciate the standard filter will be a limitation on stage 2, but if the car has all the hardware for stage 2 and a remap to suit for stage 2, is there any significant limitation power wise by keeping the standard airbox. I just dont like darth vader in the glovebox.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on March 12, 2018, 10:37:54 pm
I know its an old thread! but I've read through the post and still have a question.

I appreciate the standard filter will be a limitation on stage 2, but if the car has all the hardware for stage 2 and a remap to suit for stage 2, is there any significant limitation power wise by keeping the standard airbox. I just dont like darth vader in the glovebox.

My Ed. 30 with stage 2+ parts fitted couldn't make more than 330 BHP with an OEM airbox and a VWR panel filter using 98 octane petrol. Using a octane booster it made 335 BHP. With the same octane booster and changing to the VWR intake it made 355 BHP. No change on the tune for that, it was just the OEM airbox restricting the top power. Later with the same hardware but no octane booster and a new tune the engine made 367 BHP. That's my personal experience.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: mart. on March 12, 2018, 11:19:03 pm
Thanks for that so it does restrict thats clear and what I expected just by how much.. Maybe I will just see what he driveability is like under the 2. I just don’t think a filter is for me.

This will be on a KO3 don’t think I mentioned above.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: Shoduchi on March 12, 2018, 11:28:46 pm
Thanks for that so it does restrict thats clear and what I expected just by how much.. Maybe I will just see what he driveability is like under the 2. I just don’t think a filter is for me.

This will be on a KO3 don’t think I mentioned above.

I don't think it will be as restrictive for a K03 as it is for a K04. Your mid range should be good but you might lose something on the top end, where your K03 is less efficient.
Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: pudding on March 13, 2018, 07:56:30 pm
I'm running stage 2+ hardware and tune with the factory air box until my issues with the Racingline intake are resolved.   Works fine.

Shoduchi's findings are inline with what Racingline quote for their intake and if you don't like loud intake noises, it's the kit to get - pending some ongoing investigations into it's fitment issues!   You won't see those kind of gains until you are past 4500ish rpm.   Below that there is no change, so it depends how you drive the car.  K03 is all about midrange, so 5000+ action won't yield masses more power at stage 2 levels. 






Title: Re: Intake waste of money?
Post by: mart. on March 13, 2018, 11:43:42 pm
Cheers for that. It’s basically a car I will use for work the odd commute and then general travel. Basically I should be picking it up soon. It has all he stage 2 stuff don’e I’m just figuring out what I can do without affecting performance too much. I have a track car for hooning around in. This won’t be that.