MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Molesy on December 01, 2017, 10:41:56 am
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Guys, I know this has probably been asked a few times but whats the low down between the different maps available. I'm looking to get my rubbish Stage 1 generic map (cannot remember what brand but wasn't a well known one and I've had it for 2 years) replaced with a better well known brand as in the very cold weather recently I've been getting issues with overboost on the turbo and it going into limp home mode.
Locally I have a Revo and APR dealer so probably looking at these. I would like a Custom R-Tech one but being on the south coast its not exactly down the road. So what the coo? Revo, APR even R-Tech what's the difference between them?
Thanks as always.
Molesy :happy2:
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Revo have 25% off at the moment and having experienced their Stage 1 and some Stage 1.5 to 2+ 'custom' maps, I can't think of a compelling reason to go for a custom map miles away when Revo are on your doorstep.
APR and Revo were once the same company, so you can't go wrong with either map. Pretty similar. Both have great feedback on smoothness and power.
Nobody knows the differences between the maps. Partly because mappers are secretive and partly because they are dozens of TFSI maps easily attainable on online resources like NefMoto. One thing is certain though; none of them are fully 'custom'. VW did 90% of the hard work at the factory. Remappers just overlay their adjustments on top of the VW map. Custom means 'one off'. Tuning existing parameters is not custom, imo.
People just seem to think it is because it's done on a dyno as opposed to a flash in a carpark.
Focus more on the drivability and after sales support more than pub numbers.
If you do go for Revo, you'll need to pop back to the dealer if you remove the battery, or use an SPS switch to put the performance modes back on. For some bizarre reason, they store their maps in an area of volatile memory that gets reset when the battery is pulled. No other tuner does that, but it's a small niggle on otherwise brilliant maps.
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I have had Revo stg 1 on my car for several years without any issues and it feels good to drive. The SPS controller is useful as it enables you to make small adjustments to timing / boost / fuelling to personal tastes and small changes like, say, adding an upgraded hpfp or intercooler. I can also imagine APR driving similarly well.
That said, Revo and APR are now quite expensive in relation to the value of our cars and I would personally go to R-Tech for a custom tune given their in depth expertise. If you look at their facebook page, they have just squeezed 380ft lb of torque from a stock k03 with upgraded exhaust / intake / hpfp which is a phenominal amount of useable grunt for a road car.
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That is very beefy for a K03.
That amount of torque doesn't really paint the full picture though. For example, the last time I visited my tuner I went in with 330lbft and left with 392lbft, but the latter didn't feel that much quicker on the road. It's all relative. It's only 18% more torque. For me at least, I need improvements in the order of 50%+ to blow my skirt up.
18% more power on the other hand, that's noticeable. Where the stock intake starts dying off in tune with the turbo naturally dying off around 5500rpm, a filter on a pipe tends to keep that pulling the horizon in feeling going for longer.
Anyway, not knocking R-Tech, just bolstering my point on not getting hung up on numbers. That much torque means the turbo is running flat out, and that much cylinder pressure in an AXX/BWA may not be wise in the long term.
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You’re quite right Kev, peak numbers don’t tell the full picture. In this case, there was a very broad torque curve with a large area under it starting from low revs. I too would be inclined to tame it down a bit for longevity, not least of all since the owner was still running a stock clutch and intercooler.
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I don't know for sure, and am happy to be corrected, but its my understanding that APR and Revo deliver the same map on any car? i.e. due to component tolerances in e.g. turbo performance, HPFP, fuel(RON) etc etc one car will make different hp/lbft figures to the next as the tune is based on a car with all these components performing at an average efficiency.
On the other hand, R-Tech seemingly fettle the map they give based on the performance differences of the various components on you car, specifically. So if you have a better or worse performing components due to tolerancing or wear and tear, all of this is taken into account to deliver the best safe power for your specific hardware. This is what I believe is taken to be the meaning of "custom" in this context. If you take a look at R-Tech's facebook they post numerous results for the cars they tune, explaining why that car has performed better or worse than others in terms of the hardware limitations, issues or exceeding expectations. And the differences, even at stage 1, can be fairly significant.
I will point out I'm on R-Tech stage 1 and have never had any experience with a franchised map such as APR or Revo, so don't know if the tuner which applies one of these tunes to you car will make similar considerations and adjustments.
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@f00glee (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=16398) they both deliver a generic map though you can tweak some parameters with Revo. Not sure if that can be done by the APR installer. I can imagine these maps were developed quite some time ago on young mk5s and may not take wear into account.
The 1+ in your footer, is that with an uprated hpfp or something cat related?
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I had a custom remap on my renault from a place in Leeds. Did loads of research first etc. Only had the remap for about 3 months, then got it took off, nearly killed the clutch in that time. Soon as it was removed, no clutch noise anymore.
Best laugh was his wife had a renault captur which he said he didnt dare map! Great advertisement lol
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Revo gets my vote ... had a couple of cars with their maps and can’t complain ..... you’ve really got to ask what sort of bhp you are after . For me 320/320 is more than enough .... I personally wouldn’t want a ko3 running nearly 400ftlb , that’s just asking for trouble in my opinion and in anything other than perfect conditions would not usable in a front wheel drive car . I know r-tech have a great rep but would love to see a comparison of bhp/ftlb made on their rollers and the same car ran on another dyno .
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You’re quite right Kev, peak numbers don’t tell the full picture. In this case, there was a very broad torque curve with a large area under it starting from low revs. I too would be inclined to tame it down a bit for longevity, not least of all since the owner was still running a stock clutch and intercooler.
I think the gentleman concerned may start to enjoy the smell of clutch in the mornings! Stock IC as we've discussed isn't too bad in the colder months, but will overheat badly in the summer running that kind of boost!
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@f00glee (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=16398) they both deliver a generic map though you can tweak some parameters with Revo. Not sure if that can be done by the APR installer. I can imagine these maps were developed quite some time ago on young mk5s and may not take wear into account.
The 1+ in your footer, is that with an uprated hpfp or something cat related?
That refers to a pre-cat removal. Unlocks a few more hp/lbft and mpg. This mod in particular shows more gains with R-Tech than I imagine it would with APR/Revo. The increased flow rate and resultant slightly lower exhaust gas temperatures gives additional overhead which was taken account of during the mapping. If I can find it later, ill post up R-Techs Facebook post relating directly to my car.
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I don't know for sure, and am happy to be corrected, but its my understanding that APR and Revo deliver the same map on any car? i.e. due to component tolerances in e.g. turbo performance, HPFP, fuel(RON) etc etc one car will make different hp/lbft figures to the next as the tune is based on a car with all these components performing at an average efficiency.
On the other hand, R-Tech seemingly fettle the map they give based on the performance differences of the various components on you car, specifically. So if you have a better or worse performing components due to tolerancing or wear and tear, all of this is taken into account to deliver the best safe power for your specific hardware. This is what I believe is taken to be the meaning of "custom" in this context. If you take a look at R-Tech's facebook they post numerous results for the cars they tune, explaining why that car has performed better or worse than others in terms of the hardware limitations, issues or exceeding expectations. And the differences, even at stage 1, can be fairly significant.
I will point out I'm on R-Tech stage 1 and have never had any experience with a franchised map such as APR or Revo, so don't know if the tuner which applies one of these tunes to you car will make similar considerations and adjustments.
APR and Revo do the same hardware specific tweaking, hence listing requirements such as downpipes, intakes, HPFPs and intercoolers before going Stage 2 and 2+ etc. They have done the dyno development and road testing (in different climates) behind the scenes. The general rule of thumb there is, providing the engine is healthy (good compression) and the turbo and hardware are decent, then you will make the claimed numbers. Simples. All too often, somebody applies a flash to a knackered engine and they immediately blame the vendor.......go 'custom'....cram more boost in to make up for deficiencies elsewhere, and job done.
I think people forget the ECU self adjusts, aka adapts, whether remapped or not. Therefore compensation for wear and atmospheric conditions is automatic. Components tend to work, or not work, so the tuning window for 'wear' is tiny.....unless the engine has bugger all compression left, or the turbo thrust bearings are shot and the blades are rubbing the housings.......then all the tuning in the world isn't going to help that. Overall tolerances from one engine to another running the same hardware is tiny, +/-5% if that. The days of blue printing are over, such is the manufacturing quality these days.
You can make XXX torque on the dyno on that day, but get it on the open road where the engine load varies considerably, as does ambient temp and barometric pressure, you may find the torque reduces or increases.....and then of course we have optimistic dynos, which is a different topic!
As I say, VW have already done 90% of the core mapping. Tuners modify what's already there. I don't class that as a 'one off' custom job unique to that car since all GTIs have the same ECU, same engine, same software and the same hardware in 95% of cases because everyone follows blindly what tuners tell them to in that respect. There is nothing custom about it, imo. It's just like an old radio with a fine tune knob.
Now, if you turned up with a 4" MAF housing, different compression ratio pistons, ported head and bigger cams, bigger throttle body, GT3071R turbo with aftermarket boost control solenoid, different intake manifold, a tubular manifold and a straight thru exhaust........ getting that to run is almost a ground up, start from the beginning approach with completely redone VE tables. THAT is custom, imo :smiley: Only a few VAG tuners in the country can cope with that level of hardware change, and the main one is barely known in TFSI circles.
Revo and APR are popular for good reason. They just work and drive superbly well.....consistently well......and certainly in the case of APR, very competitive numbers too. 'Custom' maps can often be patchy, usually on throttle tip in, and need re-tweaks after the dyno session. If they work for you, then great, but I feel a lot of people only go that way because of pub numbers being thrown around on the TFSI group and some kind of misplaced snobbery about 'generic' maps. Every single GTI left the factory with the same 'generic' map :happy2:
The problem is, no one has the time, the inclination, or the money to try every map on the market......and try each one for a minimum of a year to really scrutinize seasonal behavior, traffic behavior, performance, economy (if anyone cares about that) and reliability. Personally, I'm not the sort of person to buy one thing and think "Yep, this is the best there is, job done". I like to explore the market and really understand what it is I'm buying. I've had several different generic and custom tunes over the years, and each has it's place. One isn't categorically better than the other but even a basic understanding of mapping goes a long way to helping cut through the sales bullsh*t :smiley:
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Thanks for all in info guys, I spotted the Black Friday sale on the Revo site and put in for the voucher so after speaking to the dealer it'll come in at £360ish spoke to the APR guys and that was coming in at £540ish + a 'free' dyno run. R-tech at this point are just too far away and I just don't have the time to get there and back atm. So it looks like a Revo remap this time round as I cannot justify the APR one especially as they will probably be very similar - will book it in later :smiley:
Molesy :happy2:
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Good move :happy2: I would book a slot asap because most revo dealers will be busy between now and December 31st!
I would get the SPS switch as well!
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Booked in for Thursday morning, which also happens to be my birthday so that'll be a nice little present for me as well :smiley: Will be interesting to see how it compares to what I have now, never been that impressed with the smoothness of the map it currently has.
Molesy :happy2:
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So had the Revo map installed and I am a very happy bunny. The old map (probably of Quantum quality) felt a bit off and this was confirmed by the chaps doing the map, boosting too high then dropping to low and advancing the timing too much. The Revo map in contrast hold its boost to a much more linear scale so it feels so much smoother, quicker plus the engine generally feels happier than it did before.
Just goes to show you pay peanuts you get monkeys with re-maps. Thanks for the help as always chaps.
Molesy :happy2:
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:happy2:
That's the difference between months of calibration work vs a hack job.
Did you get the SPS switch? Handy to have in case you replace the battery. You can also tweak some map settings with it too, and switch to stock mode etc.
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I didn't mate, given all the other money I spent recently and with Chrimbo round the corner I had to be a little sensible. The remap chaps said they would flash back for nothing anyway and they're only 15 mins from work plus I can always get one later :smiley:
Molesy :happy2:
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Great choice. Not always the highest figures but it drives very well at Stage 1, I was blown away going from standard to Stage 1 Revo on my K03 TFSI
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Less is more and smooth is faster. If you're spinnin' you ain't winnin'.
Personally I find Revo's figures to be realistic and their tune has that lovely press the pedal harder for more acceleration feeling. Some tunes are littered with flat spots, are all top end and no bottom end, and vice versa. And they retain the factory pedal mapping, too. Not a fan of the 'linear' pedal map at all.
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Great choice. Not always the highest figures but it drives very well at Stage 1, I was blown away going from standard to Stage 1 Revo on my K03 TFSI
Thanks Dan :smiley: It certainly has a nice feel to it!
Less is more and smooth is faster. If you're spinnin' you ain't winnin'.
Personally I find Revo's figures to be realistic and their tune has that lovely press the pedal harder for more acceleration feeling. Some tunes are littered with flat spots, are all top end and no bottom end, and vice versa. And they retain the factory pedal mapping, too. Not a fan of the 'linear' pedal map at all.
Must say that after driving the car about 70 miles now it is completely different, the old map was all low down and sod all up top the Revo feels closer to stock in the way it brings the power in and I feel like I have much more control with the go pedal now than I had.
Saying that I had the wheels spinning in 3rd today coming off the roundabout onto the A23 in Brighton this morning :grin: Cold weather and cold tyres = traction issues :driver: :signLOL:
Molesy :happy2:
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Haha, yep, traction is a nightmare this time of year and you can wave goodbye to your nearside front tyre :grin: