MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Ads22 on July 06, 2017, 07:41:46 pm

Title: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 06, 2017, 07:41:46 pm
Hi there

I am a new owner of my MK5 GTI with 102000 miles on the clock. After acquiring my car with full service history - I quickly checked to see if the Cam Follower had been replaced after reading horror stories about them wearing through and causing damage. I rang the VW specialist in Wimbledon who looked after the car for the previous owner and discovered they never replaced it. The car seemed to drive absolutely fine so i thought I would get this changed as soon as possible at my local specialist.

I then received a phone call on the day of replacement with news I didn't want to hear that it had already worn through!!! Causing damage to the Cam and fuel pump aswell as the cam chain cover! To my shock as I haven't witnessed any symptoms, no rough idling or white smoke ect.

The garage have stripped the cover off for me to inspect. The Cam intake appears to be worn at the end and the part above that (not sure what the part is) has been scored. There is also damage to the fuel pump as the small bolt looking part at the end has come off and caused damage inside to the cam chain cover and the fuel line inside it. There doesnt appear to be any signs of debris however - id imagine the piece of cam follower has disintegrated. The mechanic advised it looks like its been worn through for some time!

The price to fix this of course is sky high! and looking at £2700 all in with new cams, fuel pump, follower and cam chain cover and engine clean up. The garage said they can also do cambelt but that was changed recently so have asked them not too.

I am now panicking as that is a huge amount of money - do I get the bare minimum done to get it running or replace everything they've advised - considering the car ran well before this with no codes EML's ect. Im no expert so ive attached pictures of the extent of the damage aswell as part of the quote.

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.tinypic.com%2Fwuo6x3.png&hash=6e04035b598425ba94870bba7f227cad3448e526)

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2Fi1ifbc.jpg&hash=4143a3ce70572358c06323b0b3b6f5b4a355deec)

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.tinypic.com%2F2eknhp3.jpg&hash=689024128e19f02aec45e37b2de5dc1a70f3a70f)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: v4rley on July 06, 2017, 09:39:42 pm
Ouch  :sick:

@Pesky jones (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=17818) may be able to give some advice
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: bacillus on July 06, 2017, 10:31:45 pm
Pretty sure a second hand engine would cost less that what you've been quoted.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Octoparrot on July 06, 2017, 11:00:07 pm
Sorry to hear of your problem. If it were it me and the condition of the car warranted it then I'd just bite the bullet and get it all done, there's no point on doing a half arsed job if you want to keep the car. A second hand engine is an option but also an unknown quantity so would probably more trouble than it's worth in my opinion. The garage you've taken it to seem pretty clued up so I'd trust them to do a proper job. Good luck.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Leco_GTI on July 06, 2017, 11:43:17 pm
Hi there

I am a new owner of my MK5 GTI with 102000 miles on the clock. After acquiring my car with full service history - I quickly checked to see if the Cam Follower had been replaced after reading horror stories about them wearing through and causing damage. I rang the VW specialist in Wimbledon who looked after the car for the previous owner and discovered they never replaced it. The car seemed to drive absolutely fine so i thought I would get this changed as soon as possible at my local specialist.

I then received a phone call on the day of replacement with news I didn't want to hear that it had already worn through!!! Causing damage to the Cam and fuel pump aswell as the cam chain cover! To my shock as I haven't witnessed any symptoms, no rough idling or white smoke ect.

The garage have stripped the cover off for me to inspect. The Cam intake appears to be worn at the end and the part above that (not sure what the part is) has been scored. There is also damage to the fuel pump as the small bolt looking part at the end has come off and caused damage inside to the cam chain cover and the fuel line inside it. There doesnt appear to be any signs of debris however - id imagine the piece of cam follower has disintegrated. The mechanic advised it looks like its been worn through for some time!

The price to fix this of course is sky high! and looking at £2700 all in with new cams, fuel pump, follower and cam chain cover and engine clean up. The garage said they can also do cambelt but that was changed recently so have asked them not too.

I am now panicking as that is a huge amount of money - do I get the bare minimum done to get it running or replace everything they've advised - considering the car ran well before this with no codes EML's ect. Im no expert so ive attached pictures of the extent of the damage aswell as part of the quote.

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.tinypic.com%2Fwuo6x3.png&hash=6e04035b598425ba94870bba7f227cad3448e526)

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2Fi1ifbc.jpg&hash=4143a3ce70572358c06323b0b3b6f5b4a355deec)

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.tinypic.com%2F2eknhp3.jpg&hash=689024128e19f02aec45e37b2de5dc1a70f3a70f)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

For how long do you have the car? Did you buy it privately? I am asking you because if you didn't buy it privately, you can return the car whiting 30 days after the purchase and you also should have 3 month warranty as standard.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Pesky jones on July 07, 2017, 12:08:20 am
You might be better off buying a second hand complete cylinder head aswell getting the sump dropped to ensure there aren't still fragments of follower. You definitely need a new inlet camshaft and a new fuel pump.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: chimp400 on July 07, 2017, 06:19:07 am
The labour price isnt helping but its still a lot of money to spend on quite an old car.
If your not that attached to it then the only other option is to replace the bare minimum and send it out to auction.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Juliand on July 07, 2017, 08:03:23 am
Wow, sorry to hear about this.
Isn't there also a chain adjuster.......if you're doing the whole job (chain; tensioner; adjuster)? So I've read anyway. That would sort that out then, but as you say, a big wedge of cash.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 07, 2017, 09:00:39 am
I'm absolutely distraught as I've only had the car a couple of weeks and has been driving fine. I bought it privately so there's no comeback at all, the trouble is it's in bits in the garage so isn't moving anywhere with at least doing some repairs which is going to be a decent some in itself. In anyone's opinion is there anything here that doesn't seem essential. Does the cam damage appear that severe as I may get the bare minimum done and replace or update them at a later date.
Otherwise is this really worth saving, it's not far off what I paid for it....or is there any alternative that I can go to save some money as there's no way I can afford that at this time!
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 07, 2017, 09:29:25 am
I did ask the garage about the possibility of a whole new engine but they said it would likely be double what I'd be paying now. Really at a loss as to what to do - another thing that is concerning me is the garages prices themselves and whether they are definitely bumping the price up by some margin. Would it be a good idea to patch it together and take it elsewhere to a non specialist?
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Pesky jones on July 07, 2017, 09:36:02 am
Cam adjuster isnt essential to be replaced. But then again neither are a few things on that quote.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: pudding on July 07, 2017, 09:43:52 am
Jesus.  You can get an entire head with cams, phaser etc, brand new from VW for less than that.   It's what I would do personally because as Pesky said, there'll be lots of metal dust floating around the little oil ways, it's better to just start over than get more problems later down the line. Or possibly get an entire engine.  About £4K from VW for an S3 engine (CDL), but you'll need to transfer over all your accessories and turbo.  A good base for future KO4 conversion.  And another 100K engine life, minimum.

I'm afraid at this stage, you're gonna be in for a penny, in for a pound.  Your choices are limited.  Sell it for absolute peanuts without a working engine, or invest the right amount to make it mint again, or invest the minimum amount just to get it running again.

The latter is easily achievable for waaaaaay under that quote using s/hand parts, it's your choice.......and not a pleasant one for your first GTI ownership  :confused:

Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Pesky jones on July 07, 2017, 10:18:03 am
Just to give you some rough idea of prices of SECOND HAND items

Complete cylinder head  ~500£

Complete AXX/BWA engine  ~750-1000£
Complete BYD/BWJ/CDL (stronger) ~1250-2000£

HPFP ~50-75£


Then you have labour. This will be your cheapest option to get the car running again safely I think.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 07, 2017, 06:26:55 pm
Just to give you some rough idea of prices of SECOND HAND items

Complete cylinder head  ~500£

Complete AXX/BWA engine  ~750-1000£
Complete BYD/BWJ/CDL (stronger) ~1250-2000£

HPFP ~50-75£


Then you have labour. This will be your cheapest option to get the car running again safely I think.

Wow that is considerably less! So with a refurbished cylinder head I'd imagine that doesn't include the fuel pump, cam Follower and other related parts?
I've asked the garage about the possibility of using refurbished parts but they are of course reluctant as there is no guarantee there won't be problems with those parts too.
Where you mentioned about a few parts being non essential on that quite, is there anything else that you think may be worth striking off. I'm trying to get the bare minimum done for now as I can't afford that level of work in one go. And maybe look at replacing major parts when funds allow.

At the moment the garage are due to get back to me on Monday with some pricing on just getting minimal work done.
Personally I just want the car back with the essential parts replaced so I can possibly start sourcing cheaper parts.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Juliand on July 08, 2017, 08:35:30 am
Even with a private purchase, is it not  worth contacting the seller, especially if it's only been a couple of weeks. Not sure about the legal situation, but might be worth doing some research / legal advice (free CAB etc).

Did you keep a copy of the advert - how was it described etc?  Although in fairness, he might not have been aware of the issue, as you say it was driving fine, but he might feel bad about it and make a contribution? Depends on what kind of seller he is. It seems to be 'buyer beware', but does that absolve the seller of any responsibility?? I don't know.

Very difficult situation...
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 08, 2017, 07:17:50 pm
Even with a private purchase, is it not  worth contacting the seller, especially if it's only been a couple of weeks. Not sure about the legal situation, but might be worth doing some research / legal advice (free CAB etc).

Did you keep a copy of the advert - how was it described etc?  Although in fairness, he might not have been aware of the issue, as you say it was driving fine, but he might feel bad about it and make a contribution? Depends on what kind of seller he is. It seems to be 'buyer beware', but does that absolve the seller of any responsibility?? I don't know.

Very difficult situation...

I trusted the seller didnt know and to be fair the car drove very well. I would say the blame would lie with the VW 'Specialists' that the previous owner used for servicing ect. They failed to replace this as a service procedure - when I called them they werent even familiar with the CAM follower on this engine - shocking!
I personally wouldnt have been aware of this issue if I hadnt arranged for the cam follower to be replaced
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 08, 2017, 07:23:43 pm
I think at this point the best thing to do is to clean the engine of any debris, replace the fuel pump and follower and just get the car out of there. And possibly save to get the Camshaft ect replaced as soon as I can afford and just restrict my useage of the car. Would there be any recommended place (apart from Ebay and Gumtree!) Where I could source reconditioned or used parts towards the repairs. Although if VW are cheaper than what has been quoted maybe its best to go through them?

I do find it crazy that VW would design an engine this way and not issue a recall or allow this potential damage on a fairly consumable part. I am even considering of just selling at this point as soon as its back but am really gutted by the whole ordeal as it is a very nice car otherwise. Maybe best just to settle for a granny spec hatchback!
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Rob1 on July 08, 2017, 08:43:47 pm
That's a nightmare mate, I feel for you
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Gazza747 on July 08, 2017, 11:06:48 pm
Just my opinion but if it were me I would advertise it as is and see what interest you get. Some people will do the labour themselves and have the facilities.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 09, 2017, 08:36:43 pm
If I plan to change the Cam anyway later on down the line is it even worth getting the engine clean carried out? I'm hoping not to use it too much before I decide what to do.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: nigw on July 10, 2017, 08:17:27 am
Sorry to hear of your bad luck - hope you get it sorted.

Does anyone know whether VW changes the cam follower as a service item? My car has FVWSH @ 100k miles, but not sure if the cam follower will've been part of the standard work done.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: barelyrelevant on July 10, 2017, 09:16:25 pm
Ah man, bad luck, I feel for you.

If it drives well I'd be tempted to pay them to put it all back together and then just trade it in at a local garage for a diesel or sometihng you can easily sell again. Might lose some money but sinking that amount of money into a car that's only worth what £1,500 more depending on condition is a tough one to swallow.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: ducman77 on July 10, 2017, 10:52:17 pm
So sorry that this is your first GTI experience :sad1:

Totally feel for you buddy! Hope you can get some sort of reasonable solution sorted!

Personally, I would buy a secondhand engine and install it...

But that's probably easy for me to say as I would do that kind of thing DIY...

Bit of a mess for you  :sad1:
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 12, 2017, 02:04:19 pm
So I have heard, the inlet camshaft from an S3 engine can be placed in these and it has a toughened lobe that drives the fuel pump. Is this true and if so is there any ramifications of upgrading to this?
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 12, 2017, 09:58:41 pm
Ive asked the garage to get the car back together with new fuel pump, cam follower engine flush and new oil filter for just shy of £900. I just want to get the car back so I can decide what to do. Ive also managed to check the Cam chain cover which has some damage to the inside, this was caused by the bottom part of the fuel pump. If i were to carry out the final repairs on the inlet camshaft how urgent would this need to be done judging by the photos below - I'm also concerned about the chain tensioner, is this affected by this part or likely to be damaged by a cam follower failure? Thanks.

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.tinypic.com%2Fjra5g0.jpg&hash=cf7d57ba06168714b1da4c1aad98e68339980cc5)
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 18, 2017, 10:08:30 pm
The car is now back with me, i literally got the bare minimum done - Cam follower, Fuel pump, Engine flush and reassembly. Cost a fair bit but not a patch on the £2700. Only issue i have now is a slight vibrating noise on idle but isnt running rough.
Is it best to avoid using the car at all until the Inlet Cam and cam chain kit is done, is it okay to use in short intervals?
Im going to try and source some reconditioned parts for the rest of the work, however would I be best in keeping all the parts new and genuine VW?
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Pesky jones on July 18, 2017, 10:51:18 pm
The reason the inlet can needs replacing is because as the cam follower failed, the lobe on the end of the inlet cam that runs the hpfp, is no longer a smooth surface. It will have been damaged by the hpfp piston running against it with no follower for protection.

As the lobe is damaged, any new follower that runs against it is going to wear at an accelerated rate. Im Not sure how long exactly, but the new follower will wear through pretty quickly. I wouldn't drive it until inlet cam is replaced personally.

The vibrating could be anything - hope the follower isnt worn through already! Did the vibrating start straight away?
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 19, 2017, 03:46:40 pm
The reason the inlet can needs replacing is because as the cam follower failed, the lobe on the end of the inlet cam that runs the hpfp, is no longer a smooth surface. It will have been damaged by the hpfp piston running against it with no follower for protection.

As the lobe is damaged, any new follower that runs against it is going to wear at an accelerated rate. Im Not sure how long exactly, but the new follower will wear through pretty quickly. I wouldn't drive it until inlet cam is replaced personally.

The vibrating could be anything - hope the follower isnt worn through already! Did the vibrating start straight away?

The garage informed me about the vibrating beforehand so I was aware of it. I have literally driven it home from the garage less than a quarter of a mile away to minimise any damage.

Im going to see if i can source a cheap Inlet Cam but would it be best to also replace the chain and tensioner alongside this aswell as the chain cam cover - The chain cam cover was the part that had a small gouge on the inside. Or could i get away with just replacing the cover only?
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ady117 on July 19, 2017, 06:02:46 pm
Feel for you man.. I would get the garage to put it back together, and get rid (we buy any car).. cut your losses.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Tfsi_Mike on July 19, 2017, 07:01:31 pm
Ive asked the garage to get the car back together with new fuel pump, cam follower engine flush and new oil filter for just shy of £900. I just want to get the car back so I can decide what to do. Ive also managed to check the Cam chain cover which has some damage to the inside, this was caused by the bottom part of the fuel pump. If i were to carry out the final repairs on the inlet camshaft how urgent would this need to be done judging by the photos below - I'm also concerned about the chain tensioner, is this affected by this part or likely to be damaged by a cam follower failure? Thanks.

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.tinypic.com%2Fjra5g0.jpg&hash=cf7d57ba06168714b1da4c1aad98e68339980cc5)

Clean out the little filter & check valve inside the cam cover?
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 26, 2017, 04:11:05 pm
Right a bit of an update on this. I now may be able to source the parts cheaper from a friends family member who works for VW. At the moment for the inlet cam, chain tensioner and timing chain im looking at around the £500 mark. The only issue i have now is with the chain cam cover - The part with the small gouge in the middle that i posted earlier. That part in itself is another £500 in itself!! so im really looking to avoid replacing that unless really necessary.

If i avoid replacing this part in it its current condition, what is the worst case scenario should it fail? some people have said the gouge possibly could just be welded over? Would a replacement of this also really need t be required if I replace the chain and tensioner?

Any help would be great as I could help save myself a lot of hassle if I do not replace it.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: pudding on July 26, 2017, 04:19:26 pm
Where is the gouge?  If it affects the oil flow for the VVT adjuster, then it will need replacing.  If it's just a superficial mark that doesn't affect anything, probably not worth worrying about.

Yep the chain covers are very expensive now.  Probably something to do with them being bought up in a bulk a few years ago for TSI roller conversions.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 26, 2017, 05:37:05 pm
Where is the gouge?  If it affects the oil flow for the VVT adjuster, then it will need replacing.  If it's just a superficial mark that doesn't affect anything, probably not worth worrying about.

Yep the chain covers are very expensive now.  Probably something to do with them being bought up in a bulk a few years ago for TSI roller conversions.

No it doesnt seem to have affected anywhere where the oil flows. Its a slight gouge on the oil line but hasnt worn through. Ive also been advised to replace the cambelt which was last changed in 2013, reason being as apparently changing the inlet camshaft and chain can also affected the tensioner on the cambelt. Does this sound right? I didnt think these parts affected it?
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: doylebros on July 26, 2017, 05:54:14 pm
Right a bit of an update on this. I now may be able to source the parts cheaper from a friends family member who works for VW. At the moment for the inlet cam, chain tensioner and timing chain im looking at around the £500 mark. The only issue i have now is with the chain cam cover - The part with the small gouge in the middle that i posted earlier. That part in itself is another £500 in itself!! so im really looking to avoid replacing that unless really necessary.

If i avoid replacing this part in it its current condition, what is the worst case scenario should it fail? some people have said the gouge possibly could just be welded over? Would a replacement of this also really need t be required if I replace the chain and tensioner?

Any help would be great as I could help save myself a lot of hassle if I do not replace it.

WOW - Shocked at the cover price.

Looking at your uploaded image, I would be more than happy to just refit that cover :happy2:
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: ROH ECHT on July 26, 2017, 05:56:32 pm
I know it sucks. VW didn't even put an inspection interval for this into the service booklet. This is why they switched to the TSI with a roller cam follower mid-year of '08 here in the states...not sure when the TSI came along there. The US gave a warranty extension for this here in the US for 120k miles or 10yrs.

Looks like you need a new cam chain adjuster as well. I would do it all...the new intake cam only, the exhaust cam should be fine...new hpfp and cam follower...and cam adjuster cover only if it looks worn in the cam follower cylinder there where the hpfp mounts to it. You didn't have a pic of the CF cylinder. The inside damage to the adjuster cover, you did show a pic of, shouldn't cause further issues. That is likely done from broken CF bits romping about in there. You'll be sorted for up to another 100k miles, but I would start checking it, or just replace the cam follower, every 80k miles thereafter.

Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: doylebros on July 26, 2017, 06:01:24 pm
The cost of the timing belt and water-pump plus a little extra labour time are minor in the over all picture and considering there nearly up on time, so I would replace those.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: pudding on July 27, 2017, 09:39:19 am
I know it sucks. VW didn't even put an inspection interval for this into the service booklet. This is why they switched to the TSI with a roller cam follower mid-year of '08 here in the states...not sure when the TSI came along there. The US gave a warranty extension for this here in the US for 120k miles or 10yrs.

Looks like you need a new cam chain adjuster as well. I would do it all...the new intake cam only, the exhaust cam should be fine...new hpfp and cam follower...and cam adjuster cover only if it looks worn in the cam follower cylinder there where the hpfp mounts to it. You didn't have a pic of the CF cylinder. The inside damage to the adjuster cover, you did show a pic of, shouldn't cause further issues. That is likely done from broken CF bits romping about in there. You'll be sorted for up to another 100k miles, but I would start checking it, or just replace the cam follower, every 80k miles thereafter.

America gets gold service for everything as you are the most valued customer base in the world.  The UK being a much smaller customer base, and less adept at sticking up for our consumer rights, get a brown service.  VAG have always shafted the UK with the highest sticker price, highest maintenance costs and the crappest warranties they can get away with.  Just as well for them we like their cars.

Anyway......I'm thinking this gentleman may be better off buying a new cylinder head from VW because it comes with cams, VVT adjuster, rocker cover, PCV gasket, chain, chain cover & the VVT solenoid thing.  By the time he's added up all the individual parts, it may be more a more cost effective path....and benefit from a fresh head.  Just throwing that out there!
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: ROH ECHT on July 27, 2017, 04:55:08 pm
Anyway......I'm thinking this gentleman may be better off buying a new cylinder head from VW because it comes with cams, VVT adjuster, rocker cover, PCV gasket, chain, chain cover & the VVT solenoid thing.  By the time he's added up all the individual parts, it may be more a more cost effective path....and benefit from a fresh head.  Just throwing that out there!
↑....this is worth considering...↑
You will still have to deal with timing belt and cam chain reattachment, but may be a better deal regarding cost and worth a look.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on July 27, 2017, 10:43:55 pm
Anyway......I'm thinking this gentleman may be better off buying a new cylinder head from VW because it comes with cams, VVT adjuster, rocker cover, PCV gasket, chain, chain cover & the VVT solenoid thing.  By the time he's added up all the individual parts, it may be more a more cost effective path....and benefit from a fresh head.  Just throwing that out there!
↑....this is worth considering...↑
You will still have to deal with timing belt and cam chain reattachment, but may be a better deal regarding cost and worth a look.

I did enquire about this but it's a good £1000 on top of what I've been quoted for the parts I need....and then I am in the territory of paying the same again for what paid for the car just to fix it. So far it's working out cheaper to get the parts elsewhere and getting them fitted separate.
I don't know if anyone has had experience of this but my only worry is if I do that - if something fails after the repair will a garage wriggle out of being responsible for it, even if the parts are genuine? 
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: ROH ECHT on July 27, 2017, 11:45:34 pm
I went through a rebuild myself just two years ago and it was cheaper for me to gather parts and rebuild than it was for a long block swap. I did a head rebuild with valve stem guides and seals, one piston, piston rings, and rod bearings for about $2600usd. Couldn't touch a long block for that.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: pudding on July 28, 2017, 09:17:02 am
Anyway......I'm thinking this gentleman may be better off buying a new cylinder head from VW because it comes with cams, VVT adjuster, rocker cover, PCV gasket, chain, chain cover & the VVT solenoid thing.  By the time he's added up all the individual parts, it may be more a more cost effective path....and benefit from a fresh head.  Just throwing that out there!
↑....this is worth considering...↑
You will still have to deal with timing belt and cam chain reattachment, but may be a better deal regarding cost and worth a look.

I did enquire about this but it's a good £1000 on top of what I've been quoted for the parts I need....and then I am in the territory of paying the same again for what paid for the car just to fix it. So far it's working out cheaper to get the parts elsewhere and getting them fitted separate.
I don't know if anyone has had experience of this but my only worry is if I do that - if something fails after the repair will a garage wriggle out of being responsible for it, even if the parts are genuine?

How much did VW quote you for a head out of interest?  Audi quoted me £4000 for an entire S3 (CDL) engine.  Head, block, cams, sump, cam cover, chain gear and covers, all of it basically.  Just need to bolt on the turbo and ancillaries and off you go.  If the head on it's own is half or more than half of that I'd be shocked!
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: grey golfster on July 28, 2017, 09:17:42 am
America gets gold service for everything as you are the most valued customer base in the world.  The UK being a much smaller customer base, and less adept at sticking up for our consumer rights, get a brown service.  VAG have always shafted the UK with the highest sticker price, highest maintenance costs and the crappest warranties they can get away with...
[/quote]

Big +1!

Although I beleive it may also have much to do with the fact that the US tends to "take no sh*t", certainly less than us reserved Brits?
They are certainly more litigious!

Perhaps we all should LAWYRUP and call Saul?  :signLOL:
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: pudding on July 28, 2017, 11:49:48 am
America gets gold service for everything as you are the most valued customer base in the world.  The UK being a much smaller customer base, and less adept at sticking up for our consumer rights, get a brown service.  VAG have always shafted the UK with the highest sticker price, highest maintenance costs and the crappest warranties they can get away with...

Big +1!

Although I beleive it may also have much to do with the fact that the US tends to "take no sh*t", certainly less than us reserved Brits?
They are certainly more litigious!

Perhaps we all should LAWYRUP and call Saul?  :signLOL:
[/quote]

 :grin:

Yeah we are way too reserved and tolerant!

American litigation -

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fconcentuswealth.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FJackNicholson.jpg&hash=848dc1ca800af2ee2173945754e63d3c1b026553)

English litigation -

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Ffacebook%2F000%2F556%2F791%2F71a.png&hash=688f6bab74760436a6ca4fbffbd345fc59260c9d)
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: ROH ECHT on July 28, 2017, 03:35:41 pm
...because most of us here stay fussy children all their lives...  :confused:


(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4324/35387375974_80b1f2c5d3.jpg)       

...not me of course @ 55yrs. Might be due to: I am mostly English, says ancestry.com, w/Grandparents names: Diffey, Graham, Roberts, Patterson

 (https://flic.kr/p/VV4xZY)
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on August 06, 2017, 05:18:13 pm
Before I get anything done the car may be sitting for a while as I don't want to cause any further damage. Is it a good idea just to turn the cars engine over every couple of days to avoid a flat battery or is this causing further damage to the Follower?
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ripstop on August 07, 2017, 12:13:28 am
Personally I wouldn't. The gouge in the camshaft means the HPFP which has a small piston head will put undue strain in the middle of the cam follower. Its a precision bit of kit and that gouge in the camshaft looks deep! You risk having another incident and I would wait until you can get the camshaft fixed.

The car can be left for a while, just top up the battery with a charger every so often.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on August 20, 2017, 10:06:33 pm
Got the repairs carried out in the end. The exhaust camshaft also had to come out  :indifferent: as it was well and truly stuck in there! Destroying two lots of removal tools in the process, it was also slightly worn anyway so needed to go. So now we have a new chain, tensioner, inlet and exhaust camshaft, cambelt and tensioner! I have a lovely bag of parts as a souvenir.  Luckliy the new cam follower barely had any additional wear and the chain tensioner was in good condition. Yes its a hefty bill but I wanted to keep this car going - especially given that its a nice example.

Theres a few things i wanted to clear up to avoid this happening again. Will i need to break it in for a coupe of days - since its been done ive been taking it easy.
How often will the cam follower need to be checked and changed. Ive seen conflicting information with some people saying leave it well alone until about 80k-100k miles as its not supposed to be pulled around too often. Some say it should be done with every service and that it should be inspected every now and again.
Should I feel any major performance increase or reduced fuel consumption? It feels about the same to drive albeit with a bit more shove higher in the rev range, fuel consumption is slightly better.
Here are some photos of all the old parts.
(https://s4.postimg.org/qfya9jfv1/IMG_0795.jpg)
(https://s4.postimg.org/gl753bbwt/IMG_0788.jpg)
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ripstop on August 21, 2017, 10:00:08 am
Great job ... you should be really pleased its fixed even though you are a lot lighter in the wallet. Not sure about any kind of running in but I would suggest no redlining for a few weeks  :smiley: and let stuff cycle through some heat and cooling cycles first.

Cam followers I would check every 40k in standard trim but consider some captive bolts for the HPFP. Change it when you do the pump and belt change for instance. Tuned examples checked every 10k to 20k and after that its just down to your level of paranoia and tune. After all it was meant to be a non serviceable item from VW but we all know better now :happy2: I pulled mine at 90k after reading this forum and it didnt look worn in any way. So look after your oil changes and use a good quality oil like Millers.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: pudding on August 21, 2017, 02:46:35 pm
What's with the bluing on the exhaust cam adjacent to the VVT adjuster?   Looks like that bearing was dry?  That's a lot of localised heat there  :surprised:
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on August 22, 2017, 08:18:39 pm
What's with the bluing on the exhaust cam adjacent to the VVT adjuster?   Looks like that bearing was dry?  That's a lot of localised heat there  :surprised:

Not to sure myself - it might have been from where it was heated up to remove as they had trouble getting it off the end of the Exhaust cam.

Another thing that I wanted to find out was why the AXX has both a cambelt and a camchain - quite unusual to have both isnt it??
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Richie-VRS on August 23, 2017, 08:24:53 am
A lot of VAG engines have only the inlet cam driven by the belt and a chain driving the exhaust cam. 1.9tdi's were the same.

The cam with the blueing is the inlet cam btw.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: v4rley on August 23, 2017, 02:31:29 pm
The cam with the blueing is the exhaust cam btw.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Richie-VRS on August 23, 2017, 10:42:57 pm
My apologies. For some reason I have my exhausts and inlets mixed up, I even questioned myself at the time of typing.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on September 09, 2017, 10:02:09 pm
Just an observation now ive run the car in - the first, second and third gear seem quite restricted however shifting into fourth and upwards there seems to be loads of power on tap. on the AXX engine does that seem about right - and above 3000 rpm there seems to be a nice surge of torque but below 1500 rpm the throttle response seems quite blunt. Sorry to sound paranoid but just wanted to see if this is normal behaviour for this engine now the work has been done. Im not getting any codes or warning lights or anything like that. Fuel consumption is fair at about 25-27 mpg mixed driving and mainly short journeys.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: pudding on September 11, 2017, 12:19:21 pm
The timing could be a tooth out if it feels flat off boost.  Have you scanned measuring blocks 91 and 93?

93 should be in the 0 - 3KW region and 91 should show 28KW requested and 27.5 - 28KW actual.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: ROH ECHT on September 12, 2017, 01:48:36 am

Another thing that I wanted to find out was why the AXX has both a cambelt and a camchain - quite unusual to have both isnt it??
The crank turns only the exhaust cam at one end with the belt...the exhaust cam turns the intake cam with the chain at the other end. Your cam position sensor is on the end of the intake cam at the same end as the belt...opposite of the chain. Pages 6 and 20 of the document: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/golfgoodies/mk5golfengine.pdf
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on September 14, 2017, 06:28:16 pm
The timing could be a tooth out if it feels flat off boost.  Have you scanned measuring blocks 91 and 93?

93 should be in the 0 - 3KW region and 91 should show 28KW requested and 27.5 - 28KW actual.

I havent got VCDS to check unfortunately. But i have noticed at times it feels more sprightly than others - I think it may be down to my grabbing brakes at the rear though - My next job! Would there be any other symptoms? It idles well and fuel consumption is okay.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: ROH ECHT on September 14, 2017, 09:46:34 pm
Be thankful it is not an Audi V8...I got dizzy trying to count them all...  :sick:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4420/36832160320_54c3a9d486.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Y7Js3U)
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: pudding on September 15, 2017, 09:26:41 am
The timing could be a tooth out if it feels flat off boost.  Have you scanned measuring blocks 91 and 93?

93 should be in the 0 - 3KW region and 91 should show 28KW requested and 27.5 - 28KW actual.

I havent got VCDS to check unfortunately. But i have noticed at times it feels more sprightly than others - I think it may be down to my grabbing brakes at the rear though - My next job! Would there be any other symptoms? It idles well and fuel consumption is okay.

VCDS should be a default purchase for VAG owners!

Your mpg is pretty low as well, and with the intermittent performance you mention, I'd be checking the cam sensor.   It's probably caked in swarf from your cam follower nightmare.  I would replace it personally, it's only £30 from the dealer.    Mine ran a lot smoother, better idle and better mpg when I changed it on mine.  It's a common issue for metal dust to stick to them and skew the readings to the ECU.  You don't get a fault code from it unfortunately.  Good old fashioned detective work required for that one!
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: willk86 on September 15, 2017, 12:08:16 pm
The timing could be a tooth out if it feels flat off boost.  Have you scanned measuring blocks 91 and 93?

93 should be in the 0 - 3KW region and 91 should show 28KW requested and 27.5 - 28KW actual.

I havent got VCDS to check unfortunately. But i have noticed at times it feels more sprightly than others - I think it may be down to my grabbing brakes at the rear though - My next job! Would there be any other symptoms? It idles well and fuel consumption is okay.

VCDS should be a default purchase for VAG owners!

Your mpg is pretty low as well, and with the intermittent performance you mention, I'd be checking the cam sensor.   It's probably caked in swarf from your cam follower nightmare.  I would replace it personally, it's only £30 from the dealer.    Mine ran a lot smoother, better idle and better mpg when I changed it on mine.  It's a common issue for metal dust to stick to them and skew the readings to the ECU.  You don't get a fault code from it unfortunately.  Good old fashioned detective work required for that one!
Pudding have you got a part number for the cam sensor?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: fab5freddy on September 15, 2017, 04:40:41 pm
^^^^ Will, the Cam sensor is 06C 905 163B, I replaced mine after a chat with Kev, smoothed out running issues I was having  :happy2: @willk86 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=20218)
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: willk86 on September 15, 2017, 04:56:44 pm
@fab5freddy cheers pal, that's what I'm hoping for too

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: pudding on September 15, 2017, 06:25:18 pm
FWIW, I've spoken to 4 people about the cam sensor now (2 of them not on the forum) and they've all reported better running after swapping it out.

You do need to pull a battery lead before replacing it though, to re-register it, otherwise the ECU may carry on ignoring it.  They're funny cars these.  They do pre-flight check when you turn the ignition off (you can hear the throttle flapping about), so if you pull a sensor with the battery connected, it'll fault code it.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: Ads22 on September 15, 2017, 11:25:03 pm
The timing could be a tooth out if it feels flat off boost.  Have you scanned measuring blocks 91 and 93?

93 should be in the 0 - 3KW region and 91 should show 28KW requested and 27.5 - 28KW actual.

I havent got VCDS to check unfortunately. But i have noticed at times it feels more sprightly than others - I think it may be down to my grabbing brakes at the rear though - My next job! Would there be any other symptoms? It idles well and fuel consumption is okay.

VCDS should be a default purchase for VAG owners!

Your mpg is pretty low as well, and with the intermittent performance you mention, I'd be checking the cam sensor.   It's probably caked in swarf from your cam follower nightmare.  I would replace it personally, it's only £30 from the dealer.    Mine ran a lot smoother, better idle and better mpg when I changed it on mine.  It's a common issue for metal dust to stick to them and skew the readings to the ECU.  You don't get a fault code from it unfortunately.  Good old fashioned detective work required for that one!

I would take the plunge and go for VCDS but it's well out of reach at the moment as it's pretty expensive and can't find it anywhere without spending a couple of hundred. In the meantime I'll have a look at the Sensor just to rule it out - it sounds easy to replace from what I've seen.
Title: Re: New Mk5 Owner - Cam Follower Nightmare
Post by: pudding on September 18, 2017, 03:49:52 pm
Understand that mate.   The way I see it is I can pay £100 for a Dentist checkup now, or put it off for a year and have to pay £1000 to have a new tooth put in  :grin:

Have you looked in the VAG-COM location thread to see if any members near you have it?

You don't need the full blown Ross-Tech version.  Some of the cheaper OBD2 setups apparently work well.