All Things Mk5 > Performance Modifications
Quite induction
pudding:
Ah OK, cool. Integrated make some good stuff :happy2:
The Revo scaling is off as well. You don't need to log it to know it. You can feel it in the idle quality and it's sluggishness to pull away from a standstill (in a manual at least). It's the slower air speeds which are affected by it the most. Quite amusing really as Revo bang on about MAF scaling being 'an art' on their website :grin:
Yes, same issue with my VWR too. It idled like crap. Stick the factory air box back on and voila, problem solved.
Again.....they've simply ignored what the OEM did because they couldn't match the flow characteristics of an elliptical MAF housing with a laminar grid. You don't need a Masters degree in automotive engineering to see that mounting a MAF that close to a turbulent compressor wheel is going to cause problems. Think of emptying a sink. The water drops down the plug hole just fine with big volumes of water, but when the water is almost gone, you get a very visible whirlpool. Same happens inside an intake tube with turbos and that is why that laminar grid is there - to straighten the air flow at idle and other slow gas speed situations. Oval tubes help reduce that as well. Rocket science it isn't!
I have a plan, but it won't be elegant looking but it will involve chopping out the MAF housing from the OEM cover :grin:
Revo and VWR are lucky only 1 in 10000 customers are like me :grin:
Dan_FR:
--- Quote from: Pudding on December 13, 2017, 09:56:46 am ---Ah OK, cool. Integrated make some good stuff :happy2:
The Revo scaling is off as well. You don't need to log it to know it. You can feel it in the idle quality and it's sluggishness to pull away from a standstill (in a manual at least). It's the slower air speeds which are affected by it the most. Quite amusing really as Revo bang on about MAF scaling being 'an art' on their website :grin:
Yes, same issue with my VWR too. It idled like crap. Stick the factory air box back on and voila, problem solved.
Again.....they've simply ignored what the OEM did because they couldn't match the flow characteristics of an elliptical MAF housing with a laminar grid. You don't need a Masters degree in automotive engineering to see that mounting a MAF that close to a turbulent compressor wheel is going to cause problems. Think of emptying a sink. The water drops down the plug hole just fine with big volumes of water, but when the water is almost gone, you get a very visible whirlpool. Same happens inside an intake tube with turbos and that is why that laminar grid is there - to straighten the air flow at idle and other slow gas speed situations. Oval tubes help reduce that as well. Rocket science it isn't!
I have a plan, but it won't be elegant looking but it will involve chopping out the MAF housing from the OEM cover :grin:
Revo and VWR are lucky only 1 in 10000 customers are like me :grin:
--- End quote ---
What Revo don't tell you is that the MAF scaling of their intake is matched in their software. Run an OEM housing with an aftermarket intake on their software (2+ based on my experience) and you end up with a lower reading, sluggish car and high LTFT (12-15%) - Been there and tried it, even with the OEM MAF screen and various size/shape home made alternatives (they genuinely make very little difference with an aftermarket intake pipe from my experience).
If your software uses the standard MAF maps then I'm sure a standard MAF housing will be an improvement.
Not sure which other tuners, if any, spend time correcting the MAF tables
I have also tried MAF pipes from other aftermarket intakes and saw a LTFT of around +10% and a distinctly sluggish performance off boost as you've described.
I must have been lucky with the MAF pipe I currently have, sourced from a CTS intake if I remember rightly but the dimensions and MAF location (including depth/positioning inside the pipe) are identical to the Revo...... LTFT is literally + or - 2% - depending on driving style and how much the WMI has been used. The mounting depth of the MAF inside the circular pipe is crucial to airflow readings on these intakes and seems to be overlooked by many companies.
End result - very spritely and eager even though I have no runner flaps which will only hinder low air speed scenarios.
pudding:
Interesting, cheers Dan. I am glad someone else has also pondered on this and looked into alternatives.
I am getting a Stage 2+ Revo flash tomorrow, so I will see if things improve. I did wonder if their tune is specifically matched to their own intake, but then again if it was, surely they would insist on using their own intake and not let you use Brand X? When I enquired with Revo HQ, they just said an intake was required......not theirs specifically. Anyway, I'm sure a Revo tune + Revo intake should work better.
MAF scaling is certainly an issue. I remember back in the day playing with VR6s and Vortech blowers. The OEM MAF hated it. That whirlpool effect I mentioned where the air flow is denser at the pipe perimeter compared to the middle - i.e. smack bang where the sensor reads from! People who'd binned the laminar corrector 'for improved flow' reasons suffered even more. The engine would barely idle. Modern MAFs have improved with directional characteristics to cancel out back flow from recirc valves, but mounting it so close to the turbo is still an issue, hence why they still use the air straightener. Not a problem if the MAF is mounted far way from the source of turbulence, like the TTS engine for example.......but for us EA113 boys, it needs careful consideration when moving away from stock.
Sounds like you've managed to pull it off. I would prefer a straight, uncalculated MAF reading in Litres per min instead of grams per second, since the engine volume is in litres and we know what the mechanical ingestion amount at idle should be. Then we can see if the aftermarket intake matches it exactly. Simply looking for ~3.5 g/s at idle isn't always a good indication it's accurate. I get the same readings at idle with the Revo as I do the Stock intake......but the stock intake idles a lot smoother and is more eager to get moving.
Anyway, tomorrow will be a good test!
Dan_FR:
--- Quote from: Pudding on December 13, 2017, 11:00:28 am ---Interesting, cheers Dan. I am glad someone else has also pondered on this and looked into alternatives.
I am getting a Stage 2+ Revo flash tomorrow, so I will see if things improve. I did wonder if their tune is specifically matched to their own intake, but then again if it was, surely they would insist on using their own intake and not let you use Brand X? When I enquired with Revo HQ, they just said an intake was required......not theirs specifically. Anyway, I'm sure a Revo tune + Revo intake should work better.
MAF scaling is certainly an issue. I remember back in the day playing with VR6s and Vortech blowers. The OEM MAF hated it. That whirlpool effect I mentioned where the air flow is denser at the pipe perimeter compared to the middle - i.e. smack bang where the sensor reads from! People who'd binned the laminar corrector 'for improved flow' reasons suffered even more. The engine would barely idle. Modern MAFs have improved with directional characteristics to cancel out back flow from recirc valves, but mounting it so close to the turbo is still an issue, hence why they still use the air straightener. Not a problem if the MAF is mounted far way from the source of turbulence, like the TTS engine for example.......but for us EA113 boys, it needs careful consideration when moving away from stock.
Sounds like you've managed to pull it off. I would prefer a straight, uncalculated MAF reading in Litres per min instead of grams per second, since the engine volume is in litres and we know what the mechanical ingestion amount at idle should be. Then we can see if the aftermarket intake matches it exactly. Simply looking for ~3.5 g/s at idle isn't always a good indication it's accurate. I get the same readings at idle with the Revo as I do the Stock intake......but the stock intake idles a lot smoother and is more eager to get moving.
Anyway, tomorrow will be a good test!
--- End quote ---
Hardware requirements for their software do specify a Revo intake for Stage 2 and 2+..... but then what manufacturer doesn't recommend their own version of a product
What intake and software are you currently running?
pudding:
Interesting. When I was speaking to Steve Worthington at Revo, he didn't specify a particular intake, just that one was required. He didn't elaborate any further but if their software is tuned for their specific MAF pipe, then I can see why it's needed.
Currently running the Revo intake with 'custom' tuning. It's stage 2+ boost levels, so ~2bar peak tapering off past 5K. It's fine in the most part, just the onset of boost @ 2500-3000rpm is overwhelming the engine resulting in a king size flat spot......the classic KO4 surge. I'm interested to see how Revo deal with this common problem......but I always loved Revo maps. Super smooth, hence giving their 2+ a whirl.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version