All Things Mk5 > Performance Modifications
Brake upgrades (RS4)
vRS Carl:
--- Quote from: chungster on October 19, 2010, 09:07:39 am ---Maybe it's your driving style and technique that needs modifying??
--- End quote ---
Yup it does. I've been in a car with him :evilgrin: :booty:
Janner_Sy:
--- Quote from: chungster on October 19, 2010, 09:07:39 am ---
--- Quote from: Janner_Sy on October 19, 2010, 08:23:47 am ---well that explains why i had horrendous brake travels after 3 laps of the ring with Oem fluid, but with motul RBF it stayed solid
--- End quote ---
That's interesting cos brake god dave told me the ring is not actually that hard on brakes, the corners are fast so it's more about carrying speed thru them than heavy braking. Apart from the first hairpin after flugplatz or whatever it's called at the beginning there's not much heavy braking after that in my view. Maybe it's your driving style and technique that needs modifying??
--- End quote ---
in that case since you have been told about it......
Im not new to the ring and im not new to track days in general and in that car either. I get instruction when ever i can on track days and i can assure you my braking has never been an issue.
you are correct, its not that hard on the brakes in comparison to other tracks, but the Oem pads and fluid could not cope with more than 2 laps without cooling down. When you are braking from well into triple figures down to 30-50mph and they take an age to recover and progressively worsen the more they are used obviously. By the time your sat in the queue waiting to leave the pedal travel was horrendous. However to be fair the weather was also 30degrees+.
With better pads and fluid i never had in issue at all. and could manage multiple laps with small fade but no issue in pedal travel.
the ring might not be hard on brakes, but it doesnt need to be to overheat the Oem setup.
--- Quote from: vRS Carl on October 19, 2010, 09:18:48 am ---
--- Quote from: chungster on October 19, 2010, 09:07:39 am ---Maybe it's your driving style and technique that needs modifying??
--- End quote ---
Yup it does. I've been in a car with him :evilgrin: :booty:
--- End quote ---
behave; they dont call me Hamilton for nothing.......oh wait, they dont call me that at all :grin:
anyway my original post was aimed at T_T's claim that the Oem fluid is excellent and surpasses everything else because i found from personal experience the opposite
Teutonic_Tamer:
--- Quote from: Janner_Sy on October 19, 2010, 05:41:09 pm ---
--- Quote from: chungster on October 19, 2010, 09:07:39 am ---
--- Quote from: Janner_Sy on October 19, 2010, 08:23:47 am ---well that explains why i had horrendous brake travels after 3 laps of the ring with Oem fluid, but with motul RBF it stayed solid
--- End quote ---
That's interesting cos brake god dave told me the ring is not actually that hard on brakes, the corners are fast so it's more about carrying speed thru them than heavy braking. Apart from the first hairpin after flugplatz or whatever it's called at the beginning there's not much heavy braking after that in my view. Maybe it's your driving style and technique that needs modifying??
--- End quote ---
in that case since you have been told about it......
Im not new to the ring and im not new to track days in general and in that car either. I get instruction when ever i can on track days and i can assure you my braking has never been an issue.
you are correct, its not that hard on the brakes in comparison to other tracks, but the Oem pads and fluid could not cope with more than 2 laps without cooling down. When you are braking from well into triple figures down to 30-50mph and they take an age to recover and progressively worsen the more they are used obviously. By the time your sat in the queue waiting to leave the pedal travel was horrendous. However to be fair the weather was also 30degrees+.
--- End quote ---
That sounds exactly like fading of your friction lining, and NOT boiling of the brake fluid. Did your pedal travel resume after the brakes had cooled?
--- Quote from: Janner_Sy on October 19, 2010, 05:41:09 pm ---anyway my original post was aimed at T_T's claim that the Oem fluid is excellent and surpasses everything else because i found from personal experience the opposite
--- End quote ---
Kindly STOP twisting my words. I NEVER said that the OEM fluid 'surpasses everything else'.
What I did say was the OEM fluid surpasses many 5.1 fluids. I fully accept that there are a few specialist fluids with very high temp tollerances, and these include the excellent Castrol SRF and Motul RBF. Furthermore, I accept, and have also stated that SRF and/or RBF are best used for motorsport applications.
However, I stand by my claim that the OEM fluid is an excellent one. To 'clarify' my POV, the OEM fluid is by far the best (highest dry and wet boiling point) of all the 'DOT4' fluids. And I clarify this further, the VW OEM fluid is used in heavyweight monster 200+mph Bentleys (with iron or ceramic brakes), it is used in all Audi RS and R8 cars (again, either iron or ceramic), it is used Lamborghinis (guess what - with iron or ceramic) - and finally, it is used in the worlds fastest road legal production car - the Bugatti Veyron (only available with ceramics). ALL the cars I've listed are heavier than a GTI/Cupra/vRS etc, and whilst I personally havn't tracked my current cars, I have seriously spanked my RS for a lengthy period in the Bavarain Alps, with the car fully loaded (roughly 2ΒΌ tonne) - and never had issues with either fade or boiling fluid. I have been on a track day (in my old S4) when a new B7 RS4 with irons was there, and again, the RS4 never had any brake issues. I had pad fade in my S4 (giving a long pedal), but once they cooled, the pedal travel returned to normal - all these clearly indicate that the standard fluid is up to the job of all but the most hardcore track addicts (and professional motorsport). The weak link is always the pads, when brake fade is experienced.
If you want to disagree with me, then that's fine, I don't have an issue with that. But I do not appreciate being mis-quoted, or being quoted out of context. Rgds. :smiley:
Janner_Sy:
excessive brake pedal travel doesnt come as a result of fade on the pads. I have still managed to get all my brake pads to fade at some point n track, but only with Oem fluid did i get the excessive travel.
Come to think of it when my pedal got like that i went for a really long cruise to cool it all down, before trying it again on track. it happened again and i went back home. (the joys of living 92 mile from the ring :booty:) I changed the fluid and pads that week and they were fine the next time i went.
Apologies for the mis-interpretation of your post, and whilst the top end VAg vehicles might use the same fluid, there are many other variables that would make it work better in them than it would mine, for instance massively larger discs that deal with the heat in a much more efficient way, cooling, ducting etc etc.
Teutonic_Tamer:
--- Quote from: Janner_Sy on October 20, 2010, 12:03:18 am ---excessive brake pedal travel doesnt come as a result of fade on the pads.
--- End quote ---
Maybe not always - but it can do. If you just get to the 'start' point of fading the pads (when they start gassing), then the pedal just feels wooden. But if the pad fade becomes much more intense, then the actual friction lining starts to brake down (the bonding agents basically 'melt') and becomes mushy - and this is when you can get a long pedal from pad fade. Then when they cool down, the pads then harden up again - though never fully, and the pedal travel will mostly normalise. A bit like if you leave a mars bar on your dash in the sun - it goes all squidy and 'orrible, but put it in the fridge and it firms up again, but isn't the same! When you remove pads that have been faded to extremes, the friction lining often just crumbles away from the back plate.
But yes, I also agree that boiling fluid will also cause the pedal to sink to the floor. But there is a subtle difference - with just pad fade, the pedal gets progressively longer and longer, whilst boiling fluid will send the pedal all the way to the floor in just one go.
--- Quote from: Janner_Sy on October 20, 2010, 12:03:18 am ---I have still managed to get all my brake pads to fade at some point n track, but only with Oem fluid did i get the excessive travel.
--- End quote ---
Then you must be seriously spanking your brakes. :wink: Like I said though, OEM fluid isn't ideal for such use, and proper motorsport rated fluids should be used in such extreme conditions. :happy2:
--- Quote from: Janner_Sy on October 20, 2010, 12:03:18 am ---Come to think of it when my pedal got like that i went for a really long cruise to cool it all down, before trying it again on track. it happened again and i went back home. (the joys of living 92 mile from the ring :booty:) I changed the fluid and pads that week and they were fine the next time i went.
--- End quote ---
But what were the pads like? Were they all 'crazed' and crumbly?
I reckon both the fluid AND the pads were at fault - and I wonder if you just changed pads alone, weather the pedal would have restored (after correctly bedding them in). (I'm not advocating not to have changed the fluid though!).
--- Quote from: Janner_Sy on October 20, 2010, 12:03:18 am ---Apologies for the mis-interpretation of your post,
--- End quote ---
No worries mate - I'm sure we are all prone to misquoting others from time to time, me included. :happy2:
--- Quote from: Janner_Sy on October 20, 2010, 12:03:18 am ---and whilst the top end VAg vehicles might use the same fluid, there are many other variables that would make it work better in them than it would mine, for instance massively larger discs that deal with the heat in a much more efficient way, cooling, ducting etc etc.
--- End quote ---
And you have hit the nail on the head. Can't remember if you have a vRS or a GTI - if you do have a GTI, have you fitted the 'open' fog lamp grilles? Because these actually make brake cooling worse! Because you seem a bit of a hardcore track addict, have you thought about possibly ducting your brakes?
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