MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => How to Guides / Troubleshooting => Topic started by: csrigo on September 25, 2018, 02:13:36 pm

Title: Couple of issues
Post by: csrigo on September 25, 2018, 02:13:36 pm
I have a slight miss on cylinder 2 at idle. Don't notice it while driving and it doesn't count enough to register an EML

I've changed the plugs and packs to rule that out. I have an issue with oil in the chamber also as there was some oil on the combustion side of the plug...not drenched but on the thread mostly however some was on the electrode..thght that was my issue but changed the plug and same...swapped packs etc no joy.

For background my turbo is passing a little so I'm gonna check the inlet and or intercooler pipe closest to the inlet to see if there is excessive oil and see if that is potentially my oil issue...im going to change cam cover gasket..pack side of plug is dry but replacing anyway.

Checked vcds and hpfp/fuel rail pressure seems ok...req 50bar  actual 50bar....im assuming is ok. Can't find the block for injector quantity?

I'm getting a shot of a compression tester this week to check for the worst in case it's something more sinister.

I think the injector may be seeping also....i get the miss at idle. Also on cold starts in the morning the first 30 secs of driving is hesitant...like burning excess fuel when cold??

Any ideas or common related issues...apologies for the long post.

Cheers
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: mjmallia on September 25, 2018, 02:21:09 pm
could be the carbon build up on the valves, as the engine is a direct injection.
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: colesey on September 25, 2018, 03:40:54 pm
BG44K should clear the injectors. Mine was getting slow to catch in the mornings and the idle was a bit uneven however the additive cleared that pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: csrigo on September 26, 2018, 12:35:09 am
could be the carbon build up on the valves, as the engine is a direct injection.
BG44K should clear the injectors. Mine was getting slow to catch in the mornings and the idle was a bit uneven however the additive cleared that pretty quickly.

Cheers for the replies.

@mjmallia (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2133) your right  I'm due to clean them as a matter of course as I suspect they are gummed up a bit with just over 100k now.

@colesey (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1819) I might give this a bash for the sake of £20 had a nosey online may be a good shout.

Right next thing...if it is the injector and it doesn't clean thru...what injectors am I sticking in for an upgrade?..all 4 obviously..the car has been sidelined as my toy so it is going tte420 at some point but wasn't planning on doing the injectors if I didn't need to. And if it is ttrs/rs3/rs4 can these be run with my current stage 2+ Apr map with no issues...i have loba hpfp, RS4 Rtn valve but no upgraded lpfp yet.

Cheers
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: Dan_FR on September 26, 2018, 08:20:10 am
BG44K won't fix the injector, they need removing, flow testing and proper cleaning, if they can be salvaged at all. If its bad enough to cause a persist ant misfire then get them done sooner rather than later

Your standard injectors are fine for a TTE420 - only need a FPRV to up the fuel pressure as the 136Bar item you have now won't be enough, and no you cannot run different injectors without a suitable map, which you won't get from APR
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: csrigo on September 26, 2018, 10:20:51 am
BG44K won't fix the injector, they need removing, flow testing and proper cleaning, if they can be salvaged at all. If its bad enough to cause a persist ant misfire then get them done sooner rather than later

Your standard injectors are fine for a TTE420 - only need a FPRV to up the fuel pressure as the 136Bar item you have now won't be enough, and no you cannot run different injectors without a suitable map, which you won't get from APR

Cheers mate, I'm getting a price from vw this morning on an injector...hate just changing one tho because you know another will go soon after and thats the inlet off again etc...pricey for all 4 right enough would rather not need to obviously..think I will get one injector and run that bg44k through the originals before I change it over for the sake of £20 unless it's detrimental in some way not really looked into it yet.

Yeah I thought you would prob need to map round it just curious if the ecu or software was enough to compensate on these...anybody know what block on vcds I can check the injectors on...scrolled through but may have missed it?

Cheers



Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: scopes on September 26, 2018, 11:10:01 am
Best of pulling your injectors out and sending them all for testing and re-sealing, this option would still be cheaper than a new injector...  :happy2:

Then you have peace of mind all 4 are good for another load of miles... :driver:
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: Dan_FR on September 26, 2018, 01:13:06 pm
You can't log for or test for an injector imbalance. You'll get some short term fuel trim adaption going on but that could also be caused by a multitude of things.

Get all 4 out and sent off for testing, cleaning and balancing. It's around the £125 mark if I remember rightly - R-Tech offer this service and fit/provide new seals. Worth getting all 4 tested though without a doubt
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: csrigo on September 26, 2018, 06:49:51 pm
You can't log for or test for an injector imbalance. You'll get some short term fuel trim adaption going on but that could also be caused by a multitude of things.

Get all 4 out and sent off for testing, cleaning and balancing. It's around the £125 mark if I remember rightly - R-Tech offer this service and fit/provide new seals. Worth getting all 4 tested though without a doubt

Cheers lads, didn't know r-tech done that I will be phoning tomorrow to find out sounds like what I'm after, much better option.

Hmm wld have been good to have something on vcds that points to the injector for confirmation but at approx £125 to do all 4 when the inlets off anyway sounds ideal.

Doing my compression test tomorrow so I will see what that turns up as well for my other issue.

Cheers again good suggestions never thought about getting them reconned.
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: pudding on September 28, 2018, 03:44:57 pm
For reference, I compression tested mine last summer and saw 14 bar across all 4, it's done 125K miles.   14-15 bar is the spec for a new engine, so I was very surprised by that.  Maybe the previous owner blew it up and put a new motor in  :grin:

I hate to say it mate, but oil fouling in just one cylinder isn't a good sign.  Let's hope you see some encouraging numbers from your compression test.   Try it hot and cold and see what the difference is.  It's probably wise to pull the fuel pump fuses and crank it for 10 seconds per cylinder with the throttle fully open.
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: csrigo on October 04, 2018, 01:26:00 am
For reference, I compression tested mine last summer and saw 14 bar across all 4, it's done 125K miles.   14-15 bar is the spec for a new engine, so I was very surprised by that.  Maybe the previous owner blew it up and put a new motor in  :grin:

I hate to say it mate, but oil fouling in just one cylinder isn't a good sign.  Let's hope you see some encouraging numbers from your compression test.   Try it hot and cold and see what the difference is.  It's probably wise to pull the fuel pump fuses and crank it for 10 seconds per cylinder with the throttle fully open.


Cheers mate thanks for your readings of what to expect as that was another question. Long story short not got round to it yet I left the golf in a friend's garage and I'm away with work. I did give a bit of a crap description thinking about it recently...there is oil on all plugs but more excessive cylinders 1 and 2. I jumped the gun and assumed that was the cause of the miss but it wasn't...suspected leaky injector as above.

I will check the compression as soon as I'm home...still hoping it's the turbo but we will see...i''ll post my findings
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: pudding on October 06, 2018, 03:45:08 pm
Sure it's definitely oil on the electrode and not just soot?  If a couple of plugs are darker, that can indeed point to an injector imbalance.
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: csrigo on October 09, 2018, 04:07:35 pm
Sure it's definitely oil on the electrode and not just soot?  If a couple of plugs are darker, that can indeed point to an injector imbalance.

No mate it was unfortunately definitely oil on the threads and electrode...not a lot but enough. But yes two were darker...i think this is two problems.

I'm still overseas so won't know for a while.

Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: csrigo on October 14, 2018, 08:48:58 pm
Just an update on this now I'm home.

Done my comp test....well happy and relieved! 13bar across them all and almost to the exact psi...all cylinders built pressure pretty similar no major differences there either....thank fu€¥

Also found my air leak with the intake....turbo inlet pipe wasn't sealed well enough(the part that requires cutting un shockingly) dealt with that..air leak /sucking noise(not turbo) has gone and the response is back....again thank fu£k

Still have the slight miss at idle but I'm putting that down to injector imbalance...getting whipped out and posted to R tech this week.

Will update again when I get them back see if it cures it if people have had similar issues.

Meant to add, The oil on the plugs I believe is coming from my cam cover gasket leaking..mainly between cylinders 2 and 3 and is gradually seeping down the thread of the plug...cam cover gasket...cam chain and tensioner...inlet valve clean all getting done in the one go hopefully next week...ordering the VW tools so I can smash it all at once...likely do the belt as well...feckn delighted no comp issues and can get back to maintenance.
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: pudding on October 21, 2018, 07:52:19 pm
Good news  :happy2:
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: csrigo on November 06, 2018, 03:33:50 pm
Just another update on this.

Sent injectors away to r-tech and should have then back tomorrow or Thursday nothing adverse to report so I will update again once refitted etc.

I will be starting another thread on my own update page as I have some good pics of the state of my inlet valves etc...before and after cleaning(shockingly bad prior to clean). I also have decided to do the runner flap delete purely because the manifold is off and I will be going BT at some point soon. May change my throttle pipe to forge or something as it looks tired and pretty weak.

I have the car in bits just now stripped the cam cover and chain housing to fit the new parts. Will have all this on my other page with a description and pics of how I cleaned the valves myself with no shotblasting etc....came up pretty good if I do say so. Oh and I'm heading down south for an R-tech mapping session if all is well...i.e no miss.

I'll update this again once running.
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: colesey on November 06, 2018, 04:17:31 pm
I’d be very interested in your impressions on drivability / response after the RFD, even without remapping. I know people tend to do RFD for flow when chasing @400bhp however for those of us with more modest tuning I struggle to see how two sets of throttle valves can help response.
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: csrigo on November 07, 2018, 10:35:07 pm
I’d be very interested in your impressions on drivability / response after the RFD, even without remapping. I know people tend to do RFD for flow when chasing @400bhp however for those of us with more modest tuning I struggle to see how two sets of throttle valves can help response.

No problem mate I'll keep it updated. Injectors didnt arrive today amd I had drama with the cam chain adjuster bolt..well more specifically the 10mm polydrive used to remove it...(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1308.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs618%2Fdarrochvr6%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F20181107_161930_zpsmpzmiqs1.jpg&hash=b4255bdcd316c17091b5883ce65d1fb2227a3153) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/darrochvr6/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20181107_161930_zpsmpzmiqs1.jpg.html)

Ordered another should be here tomorrow for a second go....the bolt is fine and i recovered the broken part. Only using this Laser polydrive as my mate in VW is in oz for weeks...what a selfish guy he is eh...another laser number from amazon arriving tmoro...wish me luck and il keep it updated...going a little off topic here apologies.
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: csrigo on November 11, 2018, 12:42:20 pm
Right another update on this.

I've just had my injectors reconned/tested however u want to call it from R-Tech. Great job from them again very pleased. I have also just done my intake valve clean and RFD.

Right....i still have the miss at idle which was only on cylinder 2. It's now doing it on cylinder 3 randomly as well. I'm going to retake all the packs out and change them all as weird as it is I think I've fitted swapped two guff ones...twice. I hope it's my stupidity that's doing this as it's not the injectors or compression issue.....gotta be these crappy packs which are relatively new... I know packs are notorious but I've swapped them before (cylinder to cylinder not new) with no change...new plugs as well :thinking:...gotta be the packs now they have been manhandled about.

Side note the car runs great and you never feel or log a miss when under load only at idle.

Done my valve clean, RFD and sorted a small air leak.. car feels amazing...whether it's the valve clean, RFD or both it's made a hell of a difference. I would highly recommend this if a lot of miles on the car.
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: pudding on November 16, 2018, 07:01:04 pm
Is it missing/lumpy all of the time, or just when cold?  RFD does apparently cause cold start roughness, but should smooth out when hot.

Glad to hear it's driving better  :happy2:

Keep us posted on the misfire.  I'm not convinced cleaning the injectors does a lot personally, and it's certainly not a long term fix.   I'd be interested to know if R-Tech test them properly with varying PWMs across the full pressure range of 45 - 130 bar.  If not, it's kinda pointless imo.
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: csrigo on November 18, 2018, 02:54:24 pm
Is it missing/lumpy all of the time, or just when cold?  RFD does apparently cause cold start roughness, but should smooth out when hot.

Glad to hear it's driving better  :happy2:

Keep us posted on the misfire.  I'm not convinced cleaning the injectors does a lot personally, and it's certainly not a long term fix.   I'd be interested to know if R-Tech test them properly with varying PWMs across the full pressure range of 45 - 130 bar.  If not, it's kinda pointless imo.
The car was spot on after the RFD and inlet clean...started roughish the first time obv but straight after that it started and ran fine. The miss was still there at idle but that was there pre RFD. I ran the car for 2 days without modifying any software for the RFD and it started and ran MUCH better than it did previously....combination of valve clean, injector clean RFD? made the car much much better either way. Didn't even get rough idle tbh. Only had two fault codes both caused by the RFD but no EML. I can guarantee that quite a lot of MK5 cold starts and crap initial running when cold is partially down to gunked up inlet valves since doing mine the car starts and runs perfect when cold.. it's night and day.

Now I went to R-Tech couple days ago for a custom map. Very very happy with the results. I will put this up on my own members page however with dyno results etc. The miss on cylinder 2 is still there at idle. I have had no misses through driving or any under load scenario. You wldn't have known it had a miss if you weren't monitoring on VCDS etc.

Car runs completely different on R-Tech map...even on start up and idle...again it's night and day but will post all this on my members ride thread.

As for the injector clean...tbh mate I didn't dive that deep into what equipment they use or to what spec/method...if they have a service that can test and partially clean them plus give me peace of mind they are in good order I was happy with that. I'm pretty sure if the injector was fckd then they wld have picked that up and that is what they were mainly sent down for..inlet clean and injector recon made sense as it was a bit of an investigation at the same time. I have no idea what method they use but I do have the printout of the results with the test equipment used and test results with flow rates and spray patterns etc...il stick it up later for people to nosey or compare and see what you think
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: pudding on November 23, 2018, 11:18:27 am
Mine's alway been a good starter, before and after inlet clean. No change. In all honesty, I noticed absolutely nothing after the valve clean  :grin:  Maybe mine wasn't as gunked up as other peoples, not sure.

Sounds like yours needs some deeper troubleshooting.  The compression test came back good, the injectors are done, the inlets are cleaned up.....and it's still misfiring!  Have you checked plug 2 recently to see if it's the same colour as the other 3?
Title: Re: Couple of issues
Post by: csrigo on November 25, 2018, 04:06:34 pm
Mine's alway been a good starter, before and after inlet clean. No change. In all honesty, I noticed absolutely nothing after the valve clean  :grin:  Maybe mine wasn't as gunked up as other peoples, not sure.

Sounds like yours needs some deeper troubleshooting.  The compression test came back good, the injectors are done, the inlets are cleaned up.....and it's still misfiring!  Have you checked plug 2 recently to see if it's the same colour as the other 3?

Yeah mate it's pretty weird I might just change all packs and plugs again see what happens. What mileage did you do your valve clean and was it summer or winter? If it was as gunked up as mine you would prob have remembered as it was bad. I did do the RFD at the same time tho so hard to pin point what made the difference. Yeah my car was always good in the summer but in the winter in Scotland when very cold you did notice a rougher start(always starts just a slightly rough/restricted initial running) you must be extremely lucky to have never had any roughish starts in a mk5. Now tho it's night and day and it's getting cold up here...zero roughness at all now and throttle is spot on but the R-Tech map has it running different...in a good way.

Cant load any pics at the moment photobucket is crap and won't work...anybody got any suggestions for another pic sharing app?