MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: f00glee on November 07, 2018, 08:19:56 am

Title: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: f00glee on November 07, 2018, 08:19:56 am
Had my chain and tensioner done 15k ago (at ~30k). Nose was there before and disappeared after. Great, I thought.

Now in the last few weeks a similar noise has come back, only when hot idling, sounds like coming from passenger footwell but not easily audible under the bonnet. Took to the garage, mechanic confirmed sounds abnormal and we probed around with a stethoscope. The cam chain/fuel pump/vacuum pump area shows some signs of the rattle in the background when resting the stethoscope on these caseworks but not as loud as we'd expect. The thinking is then it may be somewhere else. Possibly even the chain driven oil pump at the bottom of the engine, for similar reasons as cam chain i.e. oil thinning so not enough pressure in tensioner any more.

We ran out of time yesterday but they are pricing up a sump drop and the cost of oil chain/tensioner and sprocket in case it does need doing. I'm a few months out from an oil change anyway so may as well have a look and at very least get fresh oil out of the cost of investigation.

Anyone have any further thoughts?

Poor iphone audio recording taken from in pass foot well 1000rpm-1500rpm-idle.
https://vocaroo.com/i/s1AuqYBe9LXE

Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: pudding on November 07, 2018, 10:46:33 am
Sounds like knocking to me.  At those rpms, a likely suspect is the DMF. Is it a manual or DSG? If the former, another suspect is a worn layshaft bearing in the gearbox.  It’s a rotational clattering noise that disappears when pressing the clutch down.
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: f00glee on November 07, 2018, 12:08:21 pm
Hi Pudding, thanks for the reply.

It is a manual car, but the noise does not disappear or get any better/worse with clutch position or engine load e.g. when pulling off. Would flywheel still be a candidate? and would flywheel noise come and go with engine temperature?

For now I am proceeding with a sump drop to have a look at oil pump chain, seen a couple of reports of these failing.

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/424418-blaggers-guide-to-tsfi-bwa-internals-pt1-sump-removal/?tab=comments#comment-4816550

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,97675.msg989519.html#msg989519

@Carpy25 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6319) you still active on here? Your profile suggests you might be!
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: pudding on November 07, 2018, 01:41:14 pm
I have both of the noises mentioned above and I did my chain a year ago, so unlikely to be that in both of our cases. My DMF is especially bad when hot at the rpms you mentioned. The joys!
DMFs can wear out in two planes. Laterally (my issue) or rotationally (worn/broken springs). The latter tends to make a knock/rumble at low rpms at any temperature. 

I’m not sure about the oil pump chain tbh. The only issues I’m aware of down there are pick up pipe blockages and the oil pump sprocket bolt shearing off.  The latter only affected really early TFSIs iirc. 

If you suspect the chain, you could look up channel 93 in VCDS and see what the ‘phase angle’ is. Acceptable range is +1KW to -4KW.  If its much higher than that, the chain is worn or a tooth off.
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: f00glee on November 07, 2018, 02:10:33 pm
Ill take a look at block 93. I really don't think the noise I have appears to be from the timing chain this time (which as I say was replaced 15k/2 years ago), but worth checking out. Is this test done at idle? Further hunting for the real source of the noise to follow.

Currently booked in to have sump dropped next Tuesday to have a proper look at the oil pump chain area.

How did you diagnose your DMF?
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: pudding on November 07, 2018, 02:32:03 pm
Yep, at idle.

It’s the only thing that can be making the noise I’ve got  :happy2:
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: coolhandluke on November 07, 2018, 03:34:07 pm
Prospective buyers will come across this forum read these posts and run a mile and we will be left stuck with them wether we want to or not.
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: 99hagued on November 07, 2018, 05:43:52 pm
When it’s making the noise get someone to push/pull on the fuel pipes under the bonnet where they run down the bulkhead well you sit in the car and listen if the noise goes. Might be a long shot but it’s common on these cars for the fuel pipes to rattle and it sound just like the timing chain rattle. My ed30 started doing it a few years after doing my chain and this was the problem.
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: f00glee on November 07, 2018, 08:09:31 pm
Good point 99. I do hear the fuel line rattle from under the floor behind the drivers seat when the car is very warm sometimes, but in addition to this other main rattle. I actually ordered the little rubber spacers to solve this today so will be sure to have a good root round while I fix this at the weekend. I’ll be sure to make sure the fuel lines are secure along thier whole length.

I intend to get under the car with a stethoscope at the same time to see if I can track the noise down.

I’m 99% sure this isn’t the main rattle, but it would be very nice if I were wrong!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: pudding on November 09, 2018, 09:12:08 am
Good shout on the fuel lines.  It's an easy one to forget!  I used some grey pipe lagging foam from B&Q to silence mine.   They tap on the chassis leg just behind the front wheel.  You will see the offending area after you've dropped the plastic floor liner down.

I've listened to the sound clip again, through my desktop speakers this time.  It definitely sounds more like a deeper, mechanical knocking than plastic lines tapping the floor, but it's always hard to diagnose sounds accurately on the internet.  It does still sound like a DMF to me, and it's in the right area to be a suspect, but obviously I can't be 100% certain. 
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: f00glee on November 09, 2018, 09:54:31 am
Thanks for all the replies.

I was booked next tues for sump drop and inspection with potential to replace oil pump chain if needed. I was happy with the inspection cost, and happy with parts cost for chain and tensioner if needed. But today they've realised its a cam belt off job to swap out the oil chain if needed, pushing the cost past where I'm comfy for what is still a bit of a guess. I can see for potential for "the chain looks a bit slack", work being done, and still no improvement.

For now I've put the job on hold till I can have a closer look myself tomorrow. I'm gonna get under the car and fix the fuel line rattle and have a good root around with a stethoscope. Also taking into account all suggestions above re:phase angle measurement to further rule out cam chain again. If after all of this the oil chain is still the prime suspect ill just have to bite the bullet.

 :thinking:
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: f00glee on November 10, 2018, 11:49:22 am
@Pudding (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733)  checked phase angle with VCDS. Cold engine at idle read -5kw stayed like this for 10 mins. After a half hour drive to tps and back re read and it’s sat at -2kw. Also looked at block 91 and did a quick log of continuous adjustment vs specified and they follow each other nicely when revving the engine.

Normal?

The rattle I’m concerned with again wasn’t there until warm. After getting home and being stationary for a few mins the fuel line rattle crept in too. Next job is to tackle fuel line rattle then have a good listen around the bottom of the engine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: pudding on November 10, 2018, 08:40:22 pm
Yep, that’s fine. No need to bother with cam chain  :happy2:
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: f00glee on November 10, 2018, 08:52:04 pm
 :happy2:

None the wiser as to the source after a few hours of prodding.

Ill go for a second opinion as
t a well regarded independent guy next. If at that point I don't have a good answer ill be living with it till it worsens to a point where it can be pinpointed.
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: muff1991 on November 13, 2018, 04:37:21 pm
what about the cam chain adjuster... read a post someone had the chain and everything done but the noise was still there.. turned out to be the adjuster. (apologies if my penny is voided as I have read the full post)
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: f00glee on November 15, 2018, 10:44:27 am
what about the cam chain adjuster... read a post someone had the chain and everything done but the noise was still there.. turned out to be the adjuster. (apologies if my penny is voided as I have read the full post)

Hi Muff. Possible!

Went to the garage again for a CV boot on Tuesday. Further conversations about what I have done sends us towards the cam chain again. It really is the most likely suspect. Mechanic explained that last time I just asked them to do chain & tensioner, bolt & gaskets only (this is true, I supplied the parts and asked them to fit). Whereas for a full refresh we should have gone with adjuster, and also the cover which houses the vvt solenoid and oil feed, too.

Theoretically then, the adjuster may be why the chain wore to make a noise at 28k in the first place (?), and its started to wear this new chain after 15k too (?). This is just a theory, don't know if its possible!

For now ill keep an eye on adjustment angles through VCDS and monitor the noise. Ill have to live with it for a little while given the high cost (the adjuster kit with cover etc is something like £450 alone, verified by ringing TPS direct!). I'm happy i'm not in immediate danger but ill certainly monitor & get it sorted at some point.
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: muff1991 on November 15, 2018, 02:00:07 pm
when doing my Cam Chain & Tensioner job, I got down to the adjuster and took a look at the teeth... seemed like they was worn slightly. how sprockets on bikes wear. not hugely but it looked slightly worn. so I made the decision to change it anyway while I was there with the mind state of "if I'm doing it, I may as well do It all" so that's what I did! and yes it did hurt spending over £400 on a tiny Genuine Adjuster. but... its all done now and runs lovely (from that side of things anyway). its a tough decision, because like most silly noises like this.. its hard to guarantee that is what's causing it! and you don't want to waste £400! well I wouldn't want to! did you use a cheap chain kit or a genuine kit?
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: f00glee on November 15, 2018, 07:16:04 pm
As always - genuine!
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: pudding on November 16, 2018, 07:24:28 pm
Run an output test on the VVT phaser with VCDS.  If there are any strange noises during the test cycle, it's probably worth replacing it.





Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: pudding on August 04, 2020, 10:13:29 pm
@f00glee (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=16398) hi mate. Did you get to the bottom of this?

I’ve had a persistent rattle when hot diagnosed as very likely to be a worn oil pump chain/tensioner.  The noise occurs around 1000rpm at idle continues as a rattling/grinding noise up to around 1700rm when pulling away. As per yours, it’s silent when cold.

We stethoscoped the entire drivetrain and it did initially sound like it was the cam chain, but we discovered it was significantly louder near the crank pulley. We suspect the loose chain is causing excessive gear lash in the balancer assembly, which is transmitted through the whole engine.

Just wondering if that was indeed your issue?
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: mjmallia on August 06, 2020, 08:29:03 am
I had something similar when warm/hot.

I had the the chain and tensioner changed a couple of years ago, but a noise started recently on idle or if blipped like a chain rattle issue.

Ended up being one of the three cam plate seals had a small section break off.......changed them out and all noise disappeared.
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: muff1991 on August 06, 2020, 03:11:57 pm
I had something similar when warm/hot.

I had the the chain and tensioner changed a couple of years ago, but a noise started recently on idle or if blipped like a chain rattle issue.

Ended up being one of the three cam plate seals had a small section brake off.......changed them out and all noise disappeared.
must not of been making the correct oil pressure, i never changed my seals on the over, as at the time they was unavailable to buy loose, and had to buy the whole cam cover.. which i wasn't going to do.
Turns out, you can now buy those 3 seals easily :)
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: mjmallia on August 06, 2020, 03:26:46 pm
Yes the seals are about £30 from TPS.

Not enough oil was getting to the tensioner on the idle stage......one of the seals had a 5mm part missing.

We never did find that missing small plastic section that broke off.
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: mjmallia on August 06, 2020, 03:28:11 pm
VW UK do not list the part number as a spare, but gave them the part number and there are loads in stock......they are trying to get people to buy the whole cam cover plate at £400 odd

Rings part number is

06F 198 107A
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: f00glee on August 10, 2020, 12:38:55 pm
@f00glee (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=16398) hi mate. Did you get to the bottom of this?

I’ve had a persistent rattle when hot diagnosed as very likely to be a worn oil pump chain/tensioner.  The noise occurs around 1000rpm at idle continues as a rattling/grinding noise up to around 1700rm when pulling away. As per yours, it’s silent when cold.

We stethoscoped the entire drivetrain and it did initially sound like it was the cam chain, but we discovered it was significantly louder near the crank pulley. We suspect the loose chain is causing excessive gear lash in the balancer assembly, which is transmitted through the whole engine.

Just wondering if that was indeed your issue?

Hi Pudding,

Nope, never fixed this one - didn't ever go through with the inspection and still just living with it - not gotten any worse. Had AKS have a listen and they're not sure whats happening but have confirmed it doesn't sound like too much to worry about (i.e. I'm being fussy!).

Getting a new DMF and clutch in on 1st Sept. Will ask them to scout about again depending on what is/isn't solved by this work. I know the flywheel is clattering about due to my transmission "slop" and so who's to say some of this noise isn't coming from there, too. I have found one mention on a forum somewhere of someone having a warm idle sound which was solved by a DMF change - fingers crossed! Interesting comment about the balance shaft bit as I've also, since having engine mount inserts last year, got  a vibration through the steering wheel on overrun at 2k or 4krpm, or just holding these revs in neutral, less noticeable under load. Did wonder if this could be balance shaft related; perhaps always there just amplified since the inserts have gone in. AKS again recommended seeing what we have after the flywheel.

@mjmallia (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2133) how difficult is it to inspect/change these seals you mention?

Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: pudding on August 14, 2020, 08:39:13 pm
VW UK do not list the part number as a spare, but gave them the part number and there are loads in stock......they are trying to get people to buy the whole cam cover plate at £400 odd

Rings part number is

06F 198 107A

Ah OK, yes they are just the VVT oil control rings.  I thought you were talking about the cam girdle when you said cam cover.  I replaced those on mine recently.
Title: Re: 15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!
Post by: pudding on August 14, 2020, 08:44:49 pm
@f00glee (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=16398) hi mate. Did you get to the bottom of this?

I’ve had a persistent rattle when hot diagnosed as very likely to be a worn oil pump chain/tensioner.  The noise occurs around 1000rpm at idle continues as a rattling/grinding noise up to around 1700rm when pulling away. As per yours, it’s silent when cold.

We stethoscoped the entire drivetrain and it did initially sound like it was the cam chain, but we discovered it was significantly louder near the crank pulley. We suspect the loose chain is causing excessive gear lash in the balancer assembly, which is transmitted through the whole engine.

Just wondering if that was indeed your issue?

Hi Pudding,

Nope, never fixed this one - didn't ever go through with the inspection and still just living with it - not gotten any worse. Had AKS have a listen and they're not sure whats happening but have confirmed it doesn't sound like too much to worry about (i.e. I'm being fussy!).

Getting a new DMF and clutch in on 1st Sept. Will ask them to scout about again depending on what is/isn't solved by this work. I know the flywheel is clattering about due to my transmission "slop" and so who's to say some of this noise isn't coming from there, too. I have found one mention on a forum somewhere of someone having a warm idle sound which was solved by a DMF change - fingers crossed! Interesting comment about the balance shaft bit as I've also, since having engine mount inserts last year, got  a vibration through the steering wheel on overrun at 2k or 4krpm, or just holding these revs in neutral, less noticeable under load. Did wonder if this could be balance shaft related; perhaps always there just amplified since the inserts have gone in. AKS again recommended seeing what we have after the flywheel.

@mjmallia (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2133) how difficult is it to inspect/change these seals you mention?

OK cool, well I'll let you know if replacing the oil pump chain & tensioner solves my noise. I actually think it's the plastic chain cover that has detached and is rubbing on the chain, but I'll know for sure soon enough!

Yes I took my engine mount inserts out.  The NVH was doing my head in.  The inserts also massively increased the volume of the rattle, so double the reason to take the stupid things out! Since they've been out, I've not missed them one bit.  Much quieter and smoother and no noticeable reduction in shift quality.

I also had a vibration on overrun as you describe.  That went away with a new gearbox, but it was always there, with OEM and aftermarket engine mounts.