MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Fallout-NL on September 08, 2021, 03:44:03 pm

Title: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Fallout-NL on September 08, 2021, 03:44:03 pm


It makes this undulating sound for a minute or two / three when cold. Goes away after that. And it seems like it really needs to sit for more than 12 hours for the noise to come back upon startup. If it's just a few hours since last firing it up, you don't hear it.

The cam/timing belt hasn't done much more than 10 or 20.000 km's.

The car has done 135.xxx km's.

Cam follower for the HPFP has been replaced.

Big service has been done recently.

It also makes this sound when the aircon is off. It seems to affected by engine speed.

Cam chain and tensioners haven't been replaced. My best guess is that those are the issue. Though perhaps one of you can instantly recognize what this is?

(Bonus question: what does that chain do anyway? Is that purely there to drive the fuel pump?)

My thanks in advance.
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: mjmallia on September 09, 2021, 07:27:25 am
The typical cam chain noise to me is rattle ........try filming around the engine bay to see where the noise focus is, but cars with 80ish upwards start to require the change....mine was at 97k, my wifes at 90k etc.

The chain turns the two cams together and if it lets go due to the tensioner having given up......new head or engine depending on the speed you were doing at the time
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Fallout-NL on September 09, 2021, 08:57:16 am
The typical cam chain noise to me is rattle ........try filming around the engine bay to see where the noise focus is, but cars with 80ish upwards start to require the change....mine was at 97k, my wifes at 90k etc.

Thanks for your input! The 97k and 90k are in miles I take it?

I'll have another look with the hood up. See if I can narrow the sound down a bit. There is definite rattling when you increase engine speed, though not necessarily at idle.

Quote
The chain turns the two cams together and if it lets go due to the tensioner having given up......new head or engine depending on the speed you were doing at the time

Yes, fully aware of the bolded, haha. It's just that in most cases engines don't have both a belt and a chain right? That seemed a bit unusual to me. I'm fairly new to these engines, just bought this GTI in spring. Had a Boxster 986 before that.
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: DBXdarkangel on September 09, 2021, 09:01:19 am
Does a 2005 have a chain? Mines a 2005 axx engine and assumed it doesn't have a chain.

Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Fallout-NL on September 09, 2021, 10:13:59 am
I think it's like this: on the left side of the engine (if you stand in front of the car looking down into the engine bay) there is the 'main' timing belt that runs from the bottom of the engine to the cams. On the right side there is an additional chain, that serves to keep the camshafts in sync (and run the high pressure fuel pump).

So it has both?

On the MkVI's and up, the main belt has also been replaced by a chain if I understood correctly.
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Pudding on September 09, 2021, 11:24:25 am
My first thought was dual mass flywheel, but it sounds more like a pulsating 'grinding' noise and not the usual rattling broken DMFs make. 

Noise travels around the engine compartment like an echo chamber, so you need to lift the hood and probe various components with a stethoscope.  Listen carefully around the chain cover area (your driver's side) on the engine and the gearbox.

Does a 2005 have a chain? Mines a 2005 axx engine and assumed it doesn't have a chain.

All MK5 GTIs have a chain.

The cambelt turns the exhaust cam.  The exhaust cam is connected to the inlet cam with a chain.  It's done that way for packaging as it makes a cambelt driven cylinder head more compact.  It's always been that way with VW's 16V engines (and the 1.8T).

The EA888 engine switched to chain only for less maintenance, but we all know how that turned out  :grin:
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: DBXdarkangel on September 09, 2021, 01:17:17 pm
I was told by a garage mine doesn't have a cam chain. Wasn't a dealer obviously just a local garage so assumed the early gti axx didn't have one. Might check the condition if mine then with vcds to make sure
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: TomF on September 09, 2021, 09:55:14 pm
I might be mistaken but I was of the understanding that the chain rattle only occurs when the engine is warm? I have had a similar noise on mine (2008 BWA, 141k), particularly cold starts in the winter, but had have no other ill effects and usually goes away within a minute or two. Definitely doesn't do it all the time, haven't figured out how to replicate it. So I'm definitely interested in any opinions on this as my chain and tensioner haven't been replaced either!
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Carpy25 on September 09, 2021, 10:54:24 pm
I had this sounded very like the chain

Old thread worth a read second post down

https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,101088.msg990181.html#msg990181

Rob
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Fallout-NL on September 10, 2021, 08:11:54 am
I had this sounded very like the chain

Old thread worth a read second post down

https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,101088.msg990181.html#msg990181

Rob

Thanks, that doesn't look great btw :D. Good thing you found that.
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Carpy25 on September 11, 2021, 07:15:11 pm
Mine sounded like the chain and I think some of the rattle was had the update kit fitted not cheap by the way a some noise still remained louder when hot got good vag train techs that look after my car they were still at VW at the time they tracked it down had to replace the whole balance shaft unit as parts were not available separately, had a good second hand unit fitted at 80k and car turned 150 k last week
Hope its not that but worth getting a  scope Mike on the area to listen

Rob
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Pudding on September 15, 2021, 11:56:37 am
I might be mistaken but I was of the understanding that the chain rattle only occurs when the engine is warm? I have had a similar noise on mine (2008 BWA, 141k), particularly cold starts in the winter, but had have no other ill effects and usually goes away within a minute or two. Definitely doesn't do it all the time, haven't figured out how to replicate it. So I'm definitely interested in any opinions on this as my chain and tensioner haven't been replaced either!

Yeah a worn chain manifests itself as a diesel like chattering at a hot idle which doesn't go away when pressing the clutch down (or putting it in Drive on the DSG).  Turn the A/C off and roll the windows up.  Sounds like it's coming from behind the stereo.

You can perform a visual check by removing the vacuum pump (dead easy, 3 x T30 torx screws) and looking at how exposed the chain tensioner's piston is. Normally you can expect to see between 5-10mm exposed piston rod (depending where the engine is on it's firing order) but if you can see a lot of piston, the chain is worn out.  I'm talking 20mm+.

I.e. - this is normal

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/J2HqgETef5I/maxresdefault.jpg)

I don't want to be the harbinger of doom, but if the chain wear is ignored, this is what happens!  Notice what's missing!
 
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160125/ef4f20ddab86f7d6c4c7c9c5bf4863fd.jpg)

Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Fallout-NL on September 21, 2021, 10:34:37 am
Thanks for the additional replies. I will take all of it in consideration. Taking it to my mechanic in a week or two (and will leave it on the driveway until I go there).

Made two more video's with the hood up.

Engine cold:


Engine hot (for comparison, don't hear anything here really):
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: LC5F on September 21, 2021, 06:06:21 pm
Not really hearing much of a change except idle dropping from 1000 to 760 rpm when it warms up - its always there.

It does not sound like its coming from the chain - sounds more like its coming from the other end at the crank pulley.

Something rotating is not right, hopefully external to the engine that is easy to replace like a bearing in the alternator or drive belt tensioner.


Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Fallout-NL on September 21, 2021, 07:57:36 pm
Not really hearing much of a change except idle dropping from 1000 to 760 rpm when it warms up - its always there.

It does not sound like its coming from the chain - sounds more like its coming from the other end at the crank pulley.

Something rotating is not right, hopefully external to the engine that is easy to replace like a bearing in the alternator or drive belt tensioner.

I think you might be right. It does sound more pronounced when I move to the other side of the engine.

Like you said, hopefully external, haha.
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Wrightly on September 30, 2021, 10:18:43 pm
Sounds like the alternator pulley is on it's way out or seized. I had exactly the same sound in mine until it was changed.
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Fallout-NL on October 06, 2021, 01:09:06 pm
Alright boys 'n girls, I have since visited the mechanic and the verdict is that the dual mass flywheel is the most likely culprit.

He'll spend a bit more time diagnosing to make sure, but it seems fairly obvious.

Sounds like the alternator pulley is on it's way out or seized. I had exactly the same sound in mine until it was changed.

Yeah I thought of something like that as well. Would have been nice, probably a bit cheaper to get to than clutch and flywheel.
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: LC5F on October 06, 2021, 05:43:22 pm
That's good news - it should be a straight forward fix...
But not cheap, you may as well replace clutch assembly at the same time and possibly the rear engine crank seal
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Fallout-NL on October 07, 2021, 10:23:19 am
Yep, that's the plan. Luk has a full kit available that includes the flywheel, clutch and cylinder. Including labor it'll be about 1200 euro or so before everything's installed, but since those are wear items anyway (and they will improve the ride), the cost is a bit easier to swallow.

Not that comparing UK and Holland car prices is useful at all, but here's what I spent on the car since buying it this spring:

9250 for the car itself (05 car with 80k miles on the odo)
1900 for a major service directly after purchase (this included new brake calipers for the rear, new lock on the driver side door, new battery)
800 for a new throttle body (the car lost steam past 4k rpm, this fixed the issue)
1900 for a new clutch/flywheel assembly + repainting of the rear lid (rust around the vw badge) and rust prevention on the forward part of the door sills

Which comes to about 14k total. Part of me wonders whether I should have gone for a younger MkVII instead, but I think the V is a much prettier car, so...

I do hope this is it for the foreseeable future though lol.

Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Pudding on October 07, 2021, 03:47:29 pm
My first thought was the right thought then  :grin:

Get the S3 Dual Mass as it's different to the GTI one somehow.  Not entirely sure what is different, but it fits the GTI.  Possibly stronger springs etc.

You could have gone for a MK7 but they are boring to drive compared to a MK5.  I think I would go for a DSG MK6 R if I were to buy a hot Golf again. The MK6 has none of the build quality issues that afflicted the MK5, but drives the same  :happy2:
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: LC5F on October 07, 2021, 05:42:09 pm
At least rust isn't as big a problem as it is in the UK - Slightest hint of frost and we get experimental amounts of salt dumped on our roads.
Seen a few older Mk2's imported from NL because of being relatively rust free or not available in UK - 2 door Jetta's & syncro models
Title: Re: This sound familiar to anyone? MkV Golf GTI 2005 (engine?) noise
Post by: Fallout-NL on October 08, 2021, 09:03:46 am
My first thought was the right thought then  :grin:

Indeed, bonus points to you!

Quote
Get the S3 Dual Mass as it's different to the GTI one somehow.  Not entirely sure what is different, but it fits the GTI.  Possibly stronger springs etc.

You could have gone for a MK7 but they are boring to drive compared to a MK5.  I think I would go for a DSG MK6 R if I were to buy a hot Golf again. The MK6 has none of the build quality issues that afflicted the MK5, but drives the same  :happy2:

Isn't the chain a bit iffy on MkVI's? With the 'advantage' of a V that at least it's relatively easy to change out the belt when it's due? Or is all that overblown?

Good to hear that the 7 is not as engaging a drive as the V, that justifies my expenditures a bit, haha.

At least rust isn't as big a problem as it is in the UK - Slightest hint of frost and we get experimental amounts of salt dumped on our roads.
Seen a few older Mk2's imported from NL because of being relatively rust free or not available in UK - 2 door Jetta's & syncro models

Sadly, they are a bit trigger happy on the salt here as well :( though perhaps not as bad as in the UK. Still, I'm not sure what else they could do. Heated roads would be nice, hehe.