MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Jb55 on June 22, 2020, 03:36:05 pm

Title: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: Jb55 on June 22, 2020, 03:36:05 pm
Hey guys what do you reckon, changed the fuel Pump today for a new one and replaced cam follower at the same time and this is the follower that came out its worn on one side and only been on the car for 8k miles.

Hopefully the images work.

https://imgur.com/uxq4ho6 (https://imgur.com/uxq4ho6)

https://imgur.com/9V6aygJ (https://imgur.com/9V6aygJ)

https://imgur.com/gD7rwI3 (https://imgur.com/gD7rwI3)

Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: ROH ECHT on June 22, 2020, 05:01:46 pm
To guess, I would say cam lobe was worn unevenly before...or the HPFP was not torqued evenly at 10Nm for all three bolts. But who knows, it is also possible the cam follower was not manufactured well and may have been higher in that area.

Guesses are all one can do. I assume its hpfp has been upgraded given the amount of wear for 8k miles, right? Perhaps the spring or piston cap weren't seated squarely. The piston cap, if oem type, may not have had the oem type center button properly re-seated (see @ 6:20 [ Invalid YouTube link ]&feature=emb_logo).

These are my best guesses.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: Jb55 on June 22, 2020, 05:46:39 pm
@ROH ECHT (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3794) cam follower was last changed at vw with genuine part. I believe the Hpfp is original that came on the car and cars not been mapped so I very much doubt the pumps internals have been upgraded.

I expected to see minimal wear after only 8k was definitely a shock when I see it.
I guess all I can now is keep an eye on it and hope it’s not a worn cam lobe.

I’ll check it again after 1000 miles
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: rich83 on June 22, 2020, 07:06:04 pm
Take a picture of the cam lobe  :happy2:
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: Jb55 on June 22, 2020, 09:50:59 pm
@rich83 (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=709) I had a look at the lobe when the pump was off and it looked ok to me, I should of took a few pics but didn’t, the cars going to aks tuning in august so I’ll get them to inspect the cam lobe while they have it.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: Jb55 on June 23, 2020, 01:03:56 pm
@rich83 (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=709) @ROH ECHT (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3794) i couldn’t just leave it and had the pump off today to take some pics of the lobe, couldn’t see or feel any score marks I ran my finger nail over the lobe and it was smooth, its difficult to tell but maybe some wear to right hand side as it’s not as shiny what do you guys think?

https://imgur.com/a/9RT40tz (https://imgur.com/a/9RT40tz)
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: ROH ECHT on June 23, 2020, 04:52:51 pm
It does appear worn down to the right. I can only imagine this would be due to the original machining of cam lobe bore, end of the cam where the lobe is pressed on, or the mating surface of timing chain cover to hpfp so to misalign the position of the CF to lobe. Best hope would be something was off with the CF and more frequent inspections of the new one would be recommended. If the wear doesn't replicate itself onto the new CF, you may be able to relax.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: FJB on June 23, 2020, 05:18:45 pm
The unusual wear is likely to be caused by the cam follower not rotating as it should and staying in the same location, I don't know what would cause it not to rotate.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: rich83 on June 23, 2020, 06:06:47 pm
Doesnt look great.... Alex at AKS will tell you for sure... its sometimes hard to tell on photos.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: Jb55 on June 23, 2020, 06:13:55 pm
@FJB (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=42016)  Thanks for having a look mate, I was reading earlier that the follower actually rotates and thought maybe mine got stuck and stopped rotating,
possibly a dry follower that didn’t get lubricated or a dodgy follower that was slightly out of shape/tolerance.

@ROH ECHT (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3794) ill definitely be keeping an eye on it and hopefully just a dodgy follower. thanks for having a look buddy.

@rich83 (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=709) thanks for having a look mate fingers crossed it’s not bad news.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: ROH ECHT on June 24, 2020, 03:30:45 am
I agree with the one who said the CF may have not been rotating as they normally do. Yet another possibility.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: pudding on July 04, 2020, 05:01:25 pm
The cam lobe isn't flat like the EA888 engine, but has a slight taper to promote tappet spin.  Your tappet definitely isn't spinning.  Cam lobe looks worn out to me, but hard to say for sure without accurate measurements.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: Jb55 on July 04, 2020, 06:32:37 pm
@Pudding (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) Do you have any idea what could of caused the wear on the lobe, cars only just coming up to 80k miles, if the car had a cam follower fail in its life I would of thought the lobe would be scored.

I brought the car from a dealer 3 months ago,  I did send him a picture of the cam follower and he didn’t even know what it was despite him telling me he used to work for vw and knows these cars inside out when I brought the car from him,  not sure if I’d have any come back on the dealer if it’s worn or could he just say it’s  normal wear and tear, I need to do some research on my rights and get this lobe looked at properly.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: pudding on July 04, 2020, 06:43:49 pm
Hmmmm, hard to say for sure mate.  Oil quality or slack servicing perhaps, what's the service history like?  The car may also have had the dreaded oil pick up blockage at some point in it's history.  Any oil starvation will cause the top end components to suffer first.

Looking at the picture of the cam lobe, it's not looking too happy on the right side.  Looks like there is some very light scoring but certainly not as bad as some lobes get.

I would just stick another follower in and see what it wears like over the next few thousand miles.  Use the best oil you can afford and change it often, 3-5K.

If the new follower wears in the same manner, I would stick a new intake cam in.  It's not that bad a job.  Good time to do the cam chain and tensioner at the same time.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: Jb55 on July 04, 2020, 07:49:35 pm
@Pudding (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) full service history mostly vw , think two services was a little late but the car hadn’t done many miles in that time. Loads of paperwork with the car the sump has definitely been off and pick up replaced at some point will have to check the paperwork to see when that was.
The car was definitely owned by an enthusiast who wasn’t shy about spending money on the car.

Have replaced the follower and will check it after a 1000 miles.

I’d planned to change the oil every 5k miles using quantum platinum 5w 40 I don’t thrash the car just enjoy having a bit of power when I feel like it.

The engine runs absolutely sweet no codes no fuel cuts pulls really well.

Thanks for taking a look mate it’s appreciated.

Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: pudding on July 11, 2020, 01:11:19 pm
Let's hope it's just an anomaly and the new one wears into a more normal pattern  :happy2:

Did you check the state of the piston on the HPFP when you replaced the tappet?  The end cap (the bit that presses on the inside of the tappet) can sometimes crack on them, which would cause an uneven pressure on the tappet I suspect.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: Jb55 on July 11, 2020, 04:35:02 pm
@Pudding (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) yeh checked the pump all looked good definitely doesn’t look to have any damage, I replaced the pump with a new one as the sensor plug on top had a crack in it.

It’s definitely a strange one, iv been doing plenty of research into how to change the inlet cam if it comes to that, doesn’t look to bad of a job but I haven’t done much engine work and have never timed a car up before, not sure what the labour time would be if I got a garage like aks to do it. I know it’s best to get the chain/tensioner done at the same time so it’ll be pretty costly just in parts.

(https://i.imgur.com/hc4fZJW.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/LGvevgt.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/uj9uCcx.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/gD7rwI3.jpg)

Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: pudding on July 17, 2020, 06:44:16 pm
Yeah that looks fine mate  :happy2:

My only suspect is the slightly iffy looking cam lobe tbh mate.  It's certainly not concave and chewed up in the middle like really bad ones, but at the same time it's not as smooth and shiny looking as healthy ones, unless the image quality is a bit poor?

Timing is easy.  Well, I say 'easy', it is if you take your time and research it thoroughly.  The chain replacement guide on here is very good  :happy2:   I would say 4-5 hours book time, so £500 just in labour at a dealer straight away + vat!  I don't know what AKS's hourly rate is but it's not going to be a cheap job, and the special sealant for the cam girdle isn't cheap  :surprised:
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: Jb55 on September 09, 2020, 03:03:23 pm
Thought I’d update this after checking the new follower that’s done just over 1000 miles now and it still looks brand new
I’ll check it again at 3k miles I think, fingers crossed it was a dud follower and not the cam, if it does turn out to be the cam I’ll most likely just stick one of the new ceramic followers in from WASA and see how it goes as I’ll have nothing to lose if the cams already mangled.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: rich83 on September 09, 2020, 04:17:06 pm
I would stick to OEM follower, not the ceramic one.  :happy2:

Good to hear its not wearing.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: Jb55 on September 10, 2020, 12:03:54 am
I would stick to OEM follower, not the ceramic one.  :happy2:

Good to hear its not wearing.

@rich83 (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=709) you not a fan of ceramic follow?
I know it’s getting very mixed reviews at the mo and it’s to early to know if it will damage/wear the cam lobe
but it a situation like I might be in that the lobe could already be worn but not worn enough to cause any fuelling issues then it might be the perfect answer instead of spending ££££ to get the inlet cam changed or a new engine.
If your cams healthy then I’d 100% agree on only using the oem follower.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: rich83 on September 10, 2020, 01:07:46 am
It’s not been tested enough IMO.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: pudding on September 11, 2020, 04:39:04 pm
Reviewing the pics again, it looks like the little nipple thing that contacts the cam follower is unevenly worn....and actually a bit worn down as well. That would definitely cause the follower to not run quite true on the cam.

You were right to replace the pump  :happy2:

The ceramic follower may not be a bad idea, and Swedish aftermarket engineers from past experience know what they’re doing. It’s clear VW themselves had massive issues with follower wear, hence adding a DLC coating, and then a harder cam and finally, switching to a roller follower and different pump on the EA888. So in other words, the ceramic follower can only help an already flawed setup  :smiley:

A new inlet cam is only £200ish from VAG, so not a major deal if it comes to it  :happy2:
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: ROH ECHT on September 11, 2020, 06:49:14 pm
I've heard from three seemingly knowledgeable individuals all saying this ceramic is smooth, hard, and remains cool and with a good synthetic oil, there should be no negative issues. They've also said the tri-lobe will wear with the silicon nitride CF but the tri-lobe will wear at a slower rate than the metal-on-metal contact we have now.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: Jb55 on September 11, 2020, 07:55:11 pm
This ceramic follower is definitely causing some debate.

I have spoke to wasa who said the same as we thought that the follower wasn’t rotating properly and as long as the cam lobes overall lift is in spec then the ceramic follower could well save replacing the cam.

What I liked when I was talking to wasa was they didn’t try and bullsh*t me into buying the ceramic follower there was no “buy our Cam follower it will 100% save your cam”  they seem like top people to me and think they are quite respected in what they do.

Fingers crossed when I check the follower in another 2k miles all is still good.
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: ROH ECHT on September 26, 2020, 04:17:52 pm
Regarding the Ceramic Follower someone posted there was some trouble with WASA's CF but referred to "East". I am still waiting for them to link me that particular fb post he mentioned so I can find the connection between East and WASA.

This was the post; [There's a big thread on Facebook from an early adopter of this thing - he checked it after 2 weeks because he got a recall notice from East. The follower shattered, ruining his cam lobe and hpfp.

It's come to light that these parts were never tested on a car, only a fuel pump dyno, and the company has now said they're not compatible with upgraded fuel pumps. Buy at your own risk, or even better, not at all.]

Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: colesey on September 26, 2020, 06:29:20 pm
The tale of woe is in here Ron

https://www.facebook.com/groups/529405700525327/
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: ROH ECHT on September 26, 2020, 08:27:30 pm
Yep, found it. Thanks for the share; https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10157831618668922&set=pcb.2051984231600792

Someone remarked; WASA concluded the damage is due to the larger APR hpfp spring...as they only tested with an oem piston spring???
Title: Re: Cam follower worn on one side only 8k miles
Post by: Jb55 on March 15, 2021, 11:17:11 am
Thought I’d update this as now over 3k miles on the new follower (hardly driven the car due to lockdown).

Iv just had the fuel pump off again actually been dreading it if I’m honest but the news is good the follower has zero visible wear on it, considering the last follower I took out only had 8k miles on and was very worn I think I’m safe to say we don’t have a cam lobe issue and it might of been a issue with the old fuel pump a Dodgy follower or maybe was just installed incorrectly somehow I have no clue but I’ll check it again in another 3-4K miles just to be safe but it’s definitely looking like good news and it’s a massive relief as iv been pretty worried about it.