MK5 Golf GTI
General => Product Reviews => Topic started by: KRL on May 06, 2010, 02:37:45 pm
-
Why?
I guess some of you will be asking why have I decided to install an uprated HPFP at stage 1 as it is usually installed at the same time as stage 2+.....
As most of you probably know I do a lot of logging my car with VCDS. As part of the logging I noticed that even while the car is at stage 1 an uprated HPFP would be of great benefit. A picture says a thousand words so here you will see what I mean:
Here is a rail pressure plot of what happened with B7 on the OEM HPFP:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fuu264%2Flivall%2Foem_b7_t5_f9.jpg&hash=82f617bf6c47ef8318c86449f4c1e2074d97fe7c)
Here is a rail pressure plot of B7 with the Autotech HPFP:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fuu264%2Flivall%2Fautotech_b7_t5_f7.jpg&hash=1cc66cd6e043e7673c6dec9ea6e6c928234078f6)
As you can see the OEM HPFP is simply not able to maintain the requested rail pressure at B7 while the Autotech HPFP keeps up with no problems at all. This is why I have always run my stage 1 map at B6 up until now. When running higher boost it puts more pressure on the HPFP to provide fuel. This is because higher boost = higher airflow and to maintain AFR if you are flowing more air you will also need more fuel.
Before getting the upgraded pump fitted I wanted to make sure there would be no issues running the pump with stage 1. After having spoken to JKM and REVO I learned this should be no problem at all. Here is some great info I learned from JKM:
The fuel system has full feed back from the high and low pressure sensors and is self adapting to allow for wear in the fuel pump over the vehicles life. When you fit a higher volume fuel pump on the TFSI engines the ECU will just use a smaller compression volume window to get to the correct fuel rail pressure.
In fact REVO even told me that they think the upgraded pump will bring benefits even while you are stock!!!
Here is a picture of the Autotech Internals:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autotech.com%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2F10.127.100K.jpg&hash=69e60312278f90f0b2182f340451290f7a52c36a)
Performance
I am really surprised by how much difference this had made to the performance of the car. It has never felt this strong! I did not do any dyno's but I can really feel the difference this has made and I am a happy bunny! I feel like I have more power and more torque everywhere in the rev range. The car feels far more consistent with its power delivery which I put down to the fuel rail constantly maintaining the requested pressure.
With REVO the pump has allowed me to tweak the settings far beyond what I could run with the OEM pump. This will be a big factor in the difference it has made to the car. On other non adjustable remaps you may not feel as much of a difference. The car feels smoother at WOT and in normal driving. I have not noticed a change in MPG.
The extra boost brought some more sounds to life from my Twintake and DV as well. The Twintake is fluttering more on turbo spool and the DV is making a more high pitched noise which is all good :)
Sourcing
I purchased the Autotech on a GB for a fantastic price of £246 delivered. The usual price is ~£350 and it can be purchased from Dubtek, Regal, AMD, Jabba Sport and the TT Shop to name few.
Fitting
I decided to have my pump fitted by the TT Shop in Bedford. They are fairly close to me and I have heard good things about them from other people (thank you Mr SteveP). They gave me a good service and I will happily recommend them to others.
I do not think fitting the internals is too difficult a job and I believe that I may have been able to do it myself. However I could not afford any down time on my car hence why I asked the TT Shop to do it.
Other Pumps to consider
In no specific order:
APR
KMD
AWE
The APR pump is a full replacement pump while the Autotech, KMD and AWE have upgraded internal parts for your existing OEM HPFP. The APR pump uses the OEM HPFP as well but you will pay a premium for APR building the pump with their internally upgraded parts and testing rig.
Plus Points
- Car feels much stronger performance wise
- Car feels more consistent performance wise
- I now have far more adjust-ability and flexibility with my map settings as the fuel pump is no longer limiting me
- Richening the AFR has lowered my EGTs
Minus Points
- Cam Follower Wear
Fitting an uprated HPFP means the HPFP will be putting more pressure on your Cam Follower and will hence increase the rate of wear. This means you are likely to need to check and change your Cam follower more often than you would with the OEM HPFP. I intend to check my cam follower every oil change. It is no more than a 30 minute job to check. A replacement follower can be had for £26 so it is not much hassle. The TT Shop told me they have seen many followers looking fine with 20k+ miles on them with an uprated HPFP.
My OEM follower had done 31.5K miles 12k miles of which were remapped with stage 1. This is what it looked like:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fuu264%2Flivall%2FIMG_1710.jpg&hash=5a2c3dcb1d5dfe41dc1fe25a18eb1c074d858da9)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fuu264%2Flivall%2FIMG_1711.jpg&hash=eee247abdc94c78cbb835eee759d34e41ff7378a)
The DLC coating on the outside of the follower looks good. On the inside you can see that the DLC has worn away from where the piston of the pump has been in contact with the follower. The follower probably would have been fine for xxxxs more miles but I decided to change it anyway while I had the Autotech installed.
Summary
This has been a fantastic mod and one I would thoroughly recommend to anybody at stage 1. When I do eventually install my exhaust I will skip stage 2 and go straight to stage 2+.
-
awesome thanks :happy2:
-
great right up KRL :happy2:
I did the same, I ran the APR pump with Revo stg1 for a month or so and like you say, it felt crisper everywhere :happy2:
-
Informative write-up...thanks!
Quote: " - Richening the AFR has lowered my EGTs"
Whats EGT?
-
Informative write-up...thanks!
Quote: " - Richening the AFR has lowered my EGTs"
Whats EGT?
exhaust gas temperatures??? wild guess :confused: :smiley:
-
Whats EGT?
EGT = Exhaust Gas Temperature
Basically a leaner AFR will cause hotter EGTs and a richer AFR will cause cooler EGTs.
-
Informative write-up...thanks!
Quote: " - Richening the AFR has lowered my EGTs"
Whats EGT?
Cheers...for one moment I thought it meant "Extra Gastro-intenstinal Trouble"
-
Informative write-up...thanks!
Quote: " - Richening the AFR has lowered my EGTs"
Whats EGT?
Cheers...for one moment I thought it meant "Extra Gastro-intenstinal Trouble"
:jumping:
-
Made me :signLOL: as well :laugh:
-
Why?
This has been a fantastic mod and one I would thoroughly recommend to anybody at stage 1. When I do eventually install my exhaust I will skip stage 2 and go straight to stage 2+.
And install a new clutch shortly afterwards at a guess bud.. :wink:
Great informative write up though mate and has reminded me that I need to order a new cam follower for mine before going Stage 2+.. As it has done 45,000 now, of which 44,000 have been mapped. So although should be fine i'm still going to change it like yourself for peace of mind. :happy2: :ashamed:
Have you got the part number bud?
-
And install a new clutch shortly afterwards at a guess bud.. :wink:
Yes this is one of the reasons I have held off 2+ as I do not want to fork out for a new clutch yet if it can be avoided.
This has been a fantastic mod and one I would thoroughly recommend to anybody at stage 1. When I do eventually install my
Great informative write up though mate and has reminded me that I need to order a new cam follower for mine before going Stage 2+.. As it has done 45,000 now, of which 44,000 have been mapped. So although should be fine i'm still going to change it like yourself for peace of mind. :happy2: :ashamed:
Have you got the part number bud?
Good idea to change it and like you say I am sure it will be fine.
Part number is 06D 109 309 C
I got mine for £26 delivered from Stoke Audi.
JKM also sell them here:
http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/tfsipumps.htm
-
Cheers pal.. :happy2:
-
KRL,
that's exactly the same route I took before going to stage2+.
-
KRL,
that's exactly the same route I took before going to stage2+.
A wise choice indeed :wink:
-
....
Really excellent review, KRL :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :notworthy:
When I installed my Twintake and consequently increased my power etc I went the other way (on JKM's advice) and reduced my Revo setting instead of upgrading the fuel pump. My gut feeling favours the APR HPFP over the others but it ain't cheap.
-
....
Really excellent review, KRL :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :notworthy:
When I installed my Twintake and consequently increased my power etc I went the other way (on JKM's advice) and reduced my Revo setting instead of upgrading the fuel pump. My gut feeling favours the APR HPFP over the others but it ain't cheap.
So you are considering getting a HPFP? :evilgrin:
-
....
Really excellent review, KRL :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :congrats: :notworthy:
When I installed my Twintake and consequently increased my power etc I went the other way (on JKM's advice) and reduced my Revo setting instead of upgrading the fuel pump. My gut feeling favours the APR HPFP over the others but it ain't cheap.
So you are considering getting a HPFP? :evilgrin:
....Nope. Not while she runs sweetly as is and JKM fairly regularly monitor on the dyno.
Mods list includes TT wishbones, road-legal track rubber, intercooler, and something else I'll post about when completed in a few months. :wink:
-
Great review, I will now be fitting this to my ED30 (when I find one) before any mapping takes place :)
-
I also went Autotech pump route when going to Revo Stg1 on my Ed30, car went to 311bhp. And felt pretty fab.
I wanted to have that extra cap for fuel delivery if & when it was needed - a little bit for my own peace of mind.
Changed the cam follower at the same time too.
Pump and Map. Good mod, I'd say.
Started a modding bug for me though, so that's the downside.
I also heard the 'even stock maps benefit from the uprated fuel pump' information, as the stock pump already runs up near to it's top operational threshold.
-
Does anyone have a dyno graph of Revo stage 1 with uprated HPFP? I'd be interested to see how it compares to one without. :happy2:
-
Performance
I am really surprised by how much difference this had made to the performance of the car. It has never felt this strong! I did not do any dyno's but I can really feel the difference this has made and I am a happy bunny! I feel like I have more power and more torque everywhere in the rev range. The car feels far more consistent with its power delivery which I put down to the fuel rail constantly maintaining the requested pressure.
With REVO the pump has allowed me to tweak the settings far beyond what I could run with the OEM pump. This will be a big factor in the difference it has made to the car. On other non adjustable remaps you may not feel as much of a difference. The car feels smoother at WOT and in normal driving. I have not noticed a change in MPG.
The extra boost brought some more sounds to life from my Twintake and DV as well. The Twintake is fluttering more on turbo spool and the DV is making a more high pitched noise which is all good :)
Hi!
I've a question for you, or any other person that reads this and tried the same
did you got extra performance with the same settings or after tweaking settings?
do you have logs before and after pump upgrade apart of the new rail pressure with the same settings? differences in specified boost or other parameters?
as I suppose the target lambda should be the same and the actual lambda reached target lambda
thanks in advance
PS: I understand that this was in a S3 TFSI stage 1, right?
-
Hi!
I've a question for you, or any other person that reads this and tried the same
did you got extra performance with the same settings or after tweaking settings?
do you have logs before and after pump upgrade apart of the new rail pressure with the same settings? differences in specified boost or other parameters?
as I suppose the target lambda should be the same and the actual lambda reached target lambda
thanks in advance
PS: I understand that this was in a S3 TFSI stage 1, right?
....With the OEM pump on my Mk5 GTI 2.0T FSI, my logs at JKM showed that my Revo 2 settings needed adjustment to accommodate the fact that, since fitting a Forge Twintake the air fuel mix was occasionally causing hesitation under sudden wide open throttle (such as starting a fast overtake).
Since fitting an APR high pressure fuel pump my car feels stronger and smoother throughout the rev range, obviously due to a more suitable air-fuel mix. My Revo 2 settings are now back up to B7 / F7 / T5.
-
Hi!
I've a question for you, or any other person that reads this and tried the same
did you got extra performance with the same settings or after tweaking settings?
do you have logs before and after pump upgrade apart of the new rail pressure with the same settings? differences in specified boost or other parameters?
as I suppose the target lambda should be the same and the actual lambda reached target lambda
thanks in advance
PS: I understand that this was in a S3 TFSI stage 1, right?
....With the OEM pump on my Mk5 GTI 2.0T FSI, my logs at JKM showed that my Revo 2 settings needed adjustment to accommodate the fact that, since fitting a Forge Twintake the air fuel mix was occasionally causing hesitation under sudden wide open throttle (such as starting a fast overtake).
Since fitting an APR high pressure fuel pump my car feels stronger and smoother throughout the rev range, obviously due to a more suitable air-fuel mix. My Revo 2 settings are now back up to B7 / F7 / T5.
Hi!
looks like spools too fast to achieve the specified boost and overpasses it, and for that boost / airmass wasn't enough fuel and the hesitation it's the correction..
K03 turbos spools faster than K04 and are more common fuel cuts errors
the question it's in the logs after pump upgrade with the same settings, the specified boost in channel 115 was higher? changed lambdas of channel 031?
my doubt is:
in a stage 1 car that runs always smooth, reach specified boost, reach specified lambdas despite the fact there are differences in rail pressure, may achieve any improvement if reaches the specified 130 bar always?
maybe the lack of pressure causes more opening time of fuel injectors and compensates it to achieve the correct lambda, and while can be compensated wouldn't be any difference in performance (not if other specified settings require more fuel that can reach / mantain target lambda)
or maybe will ask for more boost with the same settings if ECU 'sees' can mantain that? but this is strange as in the same car, if you raise boost setting achieves higher boost.
-
my cars been APR Stage1 for a fair few months now but i recently decided to take advantage of the APR Sale and purchase a APR Pump, APR then flashed a new map Stage1+
On the road the difference can be felt through the rev range
Car is a 2.0TFSI LCR,With APR HPFP,Neuspeed CAI and APR Stage1+ , Soon to be addind Downpipe,RS4 valve and Stage2+
-
my cars been APR Stage1 for a fair few months now but i recently decided to take advantage of the APR Sale and purchase a APR Pump, APR then flashed a new map Stage1+
On the road the difference can be felt through the rev range
Car is a 2.0TFSI LCR,With APR HPFP,Neuspeed CAI and APR Stage1+ , Soon to be addind Downpipe,RS4 valve and Stage2+
sounds nice the improvements of a HPFP, everybody says the most noticeable upgrades are stage 2 to 2+, but I don't know the effects of it in a non-specific remap for upgraded HPFP
Did you try the pump without the 1+ remap upgrade? only stage 1
-
I ran APR stage 2 software with original hpfp and the car performed well.
But as Andrew says when APR had the sale I bought a APR hpfp, I haven't had my map adjusted but the car feels much much stronger from 4000rpm upwards.
The first drive after fitting I found a slight improvement but after the car had done a about 100 miles the improvement increased quite noticeably.
-
Hello people! :happy2:
I have an Audi S3 (2007) BHZ and I just remap with Revo (Stage 1)... Settings B7 - T4 - F9.
I made a log's and this is the result with the current fuel pressure (channel 230).
I have the same problem!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg689.imageshack.us%2Fimg689%2F8375%2Fdibujogmh.jpg&hash=cff635feb36b8a0cc74db541b3db3ec0ec70c2ae) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/dibujogmh.jpg/)
The solution is to upgrade the fuel pump? it may be because of the tank fuel pump?
I'm losing power? :confused:
KRL, when you put the piston kit Autotech, without touching the settings in the car improved means?
Regards :drinking:
-
Merry Christmas and Happy new year all!
Not been on here for a while and have moved on to different things car wise but will try to answer your questions as best I can although I may be a bit rusty....
did you got extra performance with the same settings or after tweaking settings?
This is very dependent on have aggressive your map is. If you are running the stock map then no I don't think you will feel much benefit as if I remember correctly the OEM HPFP does not have problems supplying enough fuel for stock boost levels.
If you are running a non adjustable stage 1 map it will depend on how aggressive the fueling and and boost is. A good tuner will have will have logged this when installing the map and ensures the settings are not too aggressive for the OEM hardware. Therefore I would say you may feel some benefit and the best way to know this would be to log your rail pressure and see if the OEM HPFP is keeping up - if it keeps up then no you will not feel much benefit, if it does not keep up then yes you will feel a benefit :happy2:
If you are running an adjustable map like for example REVO were you can adjust the boost, fueling and timing then yes you will get noticeable gains from this mod as you will be able to fine tune the settings to take advantage of the extra capacity the uprated HPFP delivers.
do you have logs before and after pump upgrade apart of the new rail pressure with the same settings? differences in specified boost or other parameters?
as I suppose the target lambda should be the same and the actual lambda reached target lambda
Sorry but I've deleted all my logs now.
PS: I understand that this was in a S3 TFSI stage 1, right?
Thats right, it was a great car :smiley:
my doubt is:
in a stage 1 car that runs always smooth, reach specified boost, reach specified lambdas despite the fact there are differences in rail pressure, may achieve any improvement if reaches the specified 130 bar always?
If the rail pressure is not met the most likely scenario is that you will start to run lean and therefore hotter. If things get too hot the ECU should start to take protective measures and begin to hold things back (like boost) to cool the engine down.
Hello people! happy2
I have an Audi S3 (2007) BHZ and I just remap with Revo (Stage 1)... Settings B7 - T4 - F9.
I made a log's and this is the result with the current fuel pressure (channel 230).
I have the same problem!
The solution is to upgrade the fuel pump? it may be because of the tank fuel pump?
I'm losing power? confused
KRL, when you put the piston kit Autotech, without touching the settings in the car improved means?
Regards drinking
This is a prime example of why I upgraded the HPFP at stage 1! My advice to you would be to take the boost down to 5 or 6 and re-log the rail pressure to see which setting the OEM HPFP is able to keep up with. If you just upgrade the HPFP and don't change the settings then yes you should see the rail pressure keeping up. Unless of course the problem is caused by something else. I don't think it would be the tank fuel pump as if it was I would not expect to see the rail pressure meeting requested at the higher end of the rev range. It could however be caused by something like cam follower failure and you would no that when removing the OEM HPFP.
On a side note if anybody was wondering why the OEM HPFP can keep up at higher revs but not in the mid range it is because at higher revs the cam will be working the pump faster and therefore increasing its ability to meet the requested rail pressure. In the mid range the OEM pump does not have enough fuel delivery capacity to keep up where as uprated pumps do.
Hope this helps :smiley:
-
Merry Christmas and Happy new year all!
Not been on here for a while and have moved on to different things car wise but will try to answer your questions as best I can although I may be a bit rusty....
...
If you are running an adjustable map like for example REVO were you can adjust the boost, fueling and timing then yes you will get noticeable gains from this mod as you will be able to fine tune the settings to take advantage of the extra capacity the uprated HPFP delivers.
...
If the rail pressure is not met the most likely scenario is that you will start to run lean and therefore hotter. If things get too hot the ECU should start to take protective measures and begin to hold things back (like boost) to cool the engine down.
...
This is a prime example of why I upgraded the HPFP at stage 1! My advice to you would be to take the boost down to 5 or 6 and re-log the rail pressure to see which setting the OEM HPFP is able to keep up with. If you just upgrade the HPFP and don't change the settings then yes you should see the rail pressure keeping up. Unless of course the problem is caused by something else. I don't think it would be the tank fuel pump as if it was I would not expect to see the rail pressure meeting requested at the higher end of the rev range. It could however be caused by something like cam follower failure and you would no that when removing the OEM HPFP.
Hi KRL! nice to see you here, it looks you received my message :)
merry christmas too
more specific question is, did you try these 'better settings' that you used with the autotech with the OEM piston? these settings with OEM piston caused any error?
As I said, I have doubts because as the pressure drops, the lambda matches the target lambda (channel 031), even actually it's a little bit richer than target lambda.
We have to take in account that the demanded 130bar it's always the same for stage 1 or 2+ but the requested fuel flow isn't the same. This is why if you down the boost will request even less fuel flow and will raise rail pressure for sure, but I think the main parameter to take care are the lambda values.
-
Thanks KRL!
I have remap the car with Revo (Stage 1) and with Boost settings = 9, Timing = 4 and Fuel= 9.
If low boost value you think the pressures reach defendants? Example B=5 or 6?
The car is able to maintain stock 110b requesting the ECU.
If I change the value of the fuel to 7 improve something?
Regards.
-
Great write up, I hadnt noticed it previously.
I'm revo stage 1 Boost 5. I spoke to my tuner about going higher on the boost but he said there was no point going higher than 7 without changing to hpfp internals as althouth the boost would be set higher there is no way the car would actually be running at 7 or above. The ECU wouldnt allow it. I am confused with those who are running boost 9 on stage 1 without hpfp internals, either my tuner or their tuner is talking balls!!
The most important thing (to me) is the driveability of the car!
-
Great write up, I hadnt noticed it previously.
I'm revo stage 1 Boost 5. I spoke to my tuner about going higher on the boost but he said there was no point going higher than 7 without changing to hpfp internals as althouth the boost would be set higher there is no way the car would actually be running at 7 or above. The ECU wouldnt allow it. I am confused with those who are running boost 9 on stage 1 without hpfp internals, either my tuner or their tuner is talking balls!!
The most important thing (to me) is the driveability of the car!
Hello.
You mean that if I change my settings (B = 7, T = 4, F = 9) to these other eg (B=5, T=4, F=6) get to the pressures of gasoline demand?
Regards.
-
Great write up, I hadnt noticed it previously.
I'm revo stage 1 Boost 5. I spoke to my tuner about going higher on the boost but he said there was no point going higher than 7 without changing to hpfp internals as althouth the boost would be set higher there is no way the car would actually be running at 7 or above. The ECU wouldnt allow it. I am confused with those who are running boost 9 on stage 1 without hpfp internals, either my tuner or their tuner is talking balls!!
The most important thing (to me) is the driveability of the car!
have you tried higher boost settings? despite the fact I don't use these settings by other reasons, I can say that it didn't throw any fuel cut error, and the turbo achieves higher levels of peak boost without problems.
In this case, despite the fact the rail pressure drops, there isn't any problem to achieve the desired lambda factor.
Without testing I'm pretty sure that if you run boost 5, the rail pressure it's higher than boost 7, and also higher at boost 1, by the simply reason as if you close the tap, will raise the pressure in the pipe, and this doesn't mean that a wide open tap that relieves the pressure isn't flowing a lot of water
-
Great write up, I hadnt noticed it previously.
I'm revo stage 1 Boost 5. I spoke to my tuner about going higher on the boost but he said there was no point going higher than 7 without changing to hpfp internals as althouth the boost would be set higher there is no way the car would actually be running at 7 or above. The ECU wouldnt allow it. I am confused with those who are running boost 9 on stage 1 without hpfp internals, either my tuner or their tuner is talking balls!!
The most important thing (to me) is the driveability of the car!
Hello.
You mean that if I change my settings (B = 7, T = 4, F = 9) to these other eg (B=5, T=4, F=6) get to the pressures of gasoline demand?
Regards.
Sorry I don't understand the question.
-
Sorry... :wink:
I ask that if I change my current settings with Revo (Boost = 7, Timing = 4, Fuel = 9) for example these values (B = 5, T = 4, F = 6) get my fuel pump to reach 130b defendants.
Regards.
-
Nice write up mate :congrats:
-
Interesting read. Might look to get a pump with my stage 1 before exhaust.
-
Very informative didn't think of this at stage1, thanks
-
Shall be doing this myself soon
-
just came across this on google. nice to see some actual facts for once and not just guess work. :happy2:
-
Sorry... :wink:
I ask that if I change my current settings with Revo (Boost = 7, Timing = 4, Fuel = 9) for example these values (B = 5, T = 4, F = 6) get my fuel pump to reach 130b defendants.
Regards.
If You´re running stock hpfp, theres is no way, the Fuel setting on Revo should go below 8 (lower number = richer mixture). My suggestion would be to change your setting to something like b6t4f9 or maybe F8 if stock highpressure fuel pump (hpfp)... If running upgraded hpfp, you could go down to F6
-
Saw this on facebook earlier. K04 motor with stock intake with panel filter / stock downpipe with sports cat added / upgraded hpfp. First run is revo stage 1 and the second is rtech unlocking the extra fuelling of the upgraded pump. Coming from someone with revo stage 1 and a vis pump, that midrange gain looks very encouraging!
https://imgshare.io/image/ibSd6