MK5 Golf GTI
General => Random Chat => Topic started by: Nodz on August 30, 2011, 05:34:19 pm
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I was round my mates and stumbled across this in one off his biking mags. I know this is a car forum but with what they have drawn up I wonder how long it would be before they try and get this legislation for cars and other vehicles. They have already done it with HIDs (was a thread a while back about new testing regs) and also with HGV's, bodybuilders now have to have approval and go through Main Dealers (not sure if its come in yet) amongst other things. Which asks how long will it be before we can't do modifications on cars?? Here's a list of the main ones they are worrying about:
The 10 very real European issues that we still need to draw attention to are:
The Anti tampering Regulation: Specifically Article 18 which wants to stop all modifications to complete power train, from airbox to controlling the rear tyre profile.
Compulsory ABS. If we can’t stop this, we must get a switch so that we have an option in difficult conditions where ABS doesn’t function well.
Automatic headlights on
OBD. On Board Diagnostics so that easy roadside checks can be made of our emissions and so that constant readouts of engine performance can be obtained. Expensive, complicated and with the threat, rather like a tacho, of identifying past riding style…
RMI. Repair and Maintenance Information. Rather than keeping it hidden and available for huge expense, there is a chance that manufacturers will be forced to provide ECU codes etc for a fee. What that fee is remains to be seen.
The very worrying article 52: “If systems, components or seperate technical units on a list in a delegated act to this regulation, have a dual use, for vehicles intended exclusively for racing on roads and for vehicles intended for use on public roads, they may not be sold or offered for sale to consumers” So if your K&N filter can fit a CBR race bike and a CBR road bike, the best way to police that, is to make it illegal to sell the filter in Europe.The Delegated Acts are the most scary thing, as they are the lists and details drawn up by the unelected and we won’t get to see what they are including until after the Regulation has been passed!
In solidarity with the French we need to be drawing attention to their recent government proposal to ban all bikes over 7 years old from an urban area and to make the wearing of day-glo/ reflective clothing compulsory.
Full sleeve day-glo clothing for riders and passengers has been proposed in the Irish Parliament too.
All these issues lead to the same thing, that we must take the blame for the incompetence of other road users. And while the emergency stop has been removed as a compulsory element of the UK car driving test, we are jumping through hoops with ill-judged UK interpretations of EU licencing directives.
Another EU licencing Directive is on its way (3DLD) to step the bike licencing system still further and the DfT and DSA still haven’t sorted the consultation process, even though it is meant to be in law by now and enacted January 2013.
In the magazine it also said that any modification part could only be offered by, bought from and installed by by the manufacturer and would need listing on the Log Book. Also all works including servicing would need to be done by the Manufacturer aswell (sure there was a thread on this aswell).
It all goes to vote beginning of October
Some of the above I agree with, like lights being on all the time but others seem OTT but as I asked above, if any of this goes through on bikes, how long before us car owners and enthusiasts get this legislation??
Source (http://www.ridersarevoters.org/how-the-eu-anti-tampering-regulation-is-progressing/)
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Scary stuff! :sad1:
It's getting like Big Brother (not the TV version).
All these issues lead to the same thing, that we must take the blame for the incompetence of other road users.
^ Spot on! ^
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Not sure how accurate that is. The EU has only just agreed on rules for DRLs, after long opposition by the UK and other governments. Dipped beams always on are the preserve of the Scandic countries and they have nothing to do with EU legislation.
Dunno 'bout the rest of the stuff, but it certainly seems like local government and not EU legislation (pertaining to the French/Irish references).
Put simply, I don't think there's going to be an Australian-style ban on aftermarket modification anytime soon. Neither the car manufacturers nor the (majority) of the governments involved care enough IMO and there's a few more pressing matters (like the Greek problem) to concern our three-tier quasi-elected European overlords.
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Love your wordsmithing, Neo :congrats: :congrats: - It made me grin. I think you're probably right as well.
The DRL thing took many years and is still incomplete in its application.
Out of curiosity, how long did the Australians take to apply their draconian policy?
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I would like to think that they are sorting out the crumbling member states and their single currency but they are doing loads of other things apart from that and this being one of them.
With regards to the my original post, the Irish and French bits is what they want drawn up in the legislation and what they have proposed to the Rapporteur/committee. The Rapporteur is a person who investigates and studies the topic in depth and then reports back their recommendation to the committee who was tasked to sort out as they don't have an in depth knowledge of what they have been tasked to look into, in this case its the IMCO. Then the committee members view the Rapporteurs ideas, they put in their own amendments and the whole committee vote on what amendments they are happy to see. They then present it to the Council of Ministers in the EU Parliament who will then make it law. And as its an EU law it automatically comes into force in all member states without them having to introduce it.
At this stage, the Rapporteur has tabled his findings and it is now being discussed by the IMCO before it gets presented to Council of Ministers and the EU Parliament. Due to the UK and Finland biker mags doing petition and letters etc the vote from the IMCO has been put off until beginning of October, but something will still be presented and new legislation passed.
Its actually quite scary how many decisions the EU actually make and laws they pass onto their member states. Its funny how we're in a democracy and no one actually gets told anything about these planned changes until it all takes effect and by that time its to late. Or if we do get told theres very little time to do anything about it.
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VAG have already implemented Tuning Protection 10 which effectively locks your ECU with 1024 bit RSA encryption. That in itself is killing off the remapping market. The only way around it at the moment is to remove and open the ECU for programming which in itself is a rather unsavoury business.
It kind of pi$$es me off. Sure I can understand that they don't want unnecessary warranty claims etc but last time I looked I'd bought my ECU, i'm certainly not renting it so why should I be dictated to who can reprogram it?? :fighting:
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I'd bought my ECU, i'm certainly not renting it so why should I be dictated to who can reprogram it?? :fighting:
Too true mate and what about the cars that are out out of warranty, We have been through this sort of thing before and IMO I cannot see the government letting it happen has the amount of tax they rake in off people like us it is probably astronomical?
Darren
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Even out of warranty ECU's are locked. You've got guy's with 3.0TDi A5's taking cars in for service, having their maps wiped and then the ECU locked - On cars that are out of warranty!!
Madness.
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Even out of warranty ECU's are locked. You've got guy's with 3.0TDi A5's taking cars in for service, having their maps wiped and then the ECU locked - On cars that are out of warranty!!
Madness.
....Then thank goodness I take my car to VWR for servicing and not my VW dealer any longer (although they would probably tell me about it before doing it). However, they may still be obliged to do the dastardly deed. That's shocking!
What justification/reasons are being given to customers by Audi do you know, Stu?
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What justification/reasons are being given to customers by Audi do you know, Stu?
Routine ECU update Robin. :fighting:
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I don't think it will affect MK5 cars as it's the newer ME17/MED17 ECU's with a Tricore Processor.
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Don't customers have the absolute right to refuse an ECU update if their car is out of warranty?
Surely being out of warranty exonerates the dealer?
I don't think it will affect MK5 cars as it's the newer ME17/MED17 ECU's with a Tricore Processor.
....Then a lot to be said for me hanging onto my Mk5 GTI methinks!
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Don't customers have the absolute right to refuse an ECU update if their car is out of warranty?
Surely being out of warranty exonerates the dealer?
I don't think it will affect MK5 cars as it's the newer ME17/MED17 ECU's with a Tricore Processor.
Yes you can sign a disclaimer to accept responsibility of not having an update carried out - if you are made aware they are doing it.
Not really Robin, they are doing the right thing in terms of giving the customer the most up to date software for the car. The iffy point is that if they are going to lock the ECU they really should explain this to the customer however I have a feeling that 9 out of 10 dealers won't actually know whats happening.
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Yes you can sign a disclaimer to accept responsibility of not having an update carried out - if you are made aware they are doing it.
Not really Robin, they are doing the right thing in terms of giving the customer the most up to date software for the car. The iffy point is that if they are going to lock the ECU they really should explain this to the customer however I have a feeling that 9 out of 10 dealers won't actually know whats happening.
....I agree.
But even if the dealer doesn't know about the lock-out aspect, I somehow imagine that some customers with cars they have spent money on remapping would be furious and have justification in taking the matter to court. Perhaps it needs a test case to establish a legal precedent.
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I'd like to see something come out of the US, after all if they can force Apple to accept Jailbreaking I don't think Audi locking an ECU would bother them. :evilgrin:
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Dont know if you are aware but as off The end of the year new mot regs come in meaning any car with a chipped ecu or hids will fail an mot! As of any of this happening in britain i cant see it ever happening as this will cost the economy millions due to tuners going out of business, this would also effect every non dealership garage if they wernt allowed to certain things to our cars ! That would easy cost 10000+ jobs
i think some things make sence in the motorbike world like lights ect but they wont stop the tuningparts ect ect
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Dont know if you are aware but as off The end of the year new mot regs come in meaning any car with a chipped ecu or hids will fail an mot!
....Hmm,
A) - "Chipped" usually means hardware: A physical modification of the ECU or replacement/add-on etc. For example, it probably includes fleeBay 'stuff' which replaces the MAF etc.
B) - "Remap" means ECU software reprogramming and is quite a different story.
So, which do you mean?
You'd be a fool to chip the 2.0T FSI.
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I don't see how a non-franchised garage can police the "chipping" of an ECU not without great expense on their part. :confused:
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VAG have already implemented Tuning Protection 10 which effectively locks your ECU with 1024 bit RSA encryption. That in itself is killing off the remapping market. The only way around it at the moment is to remove and open the ECU for programming which in itself is a rather unsavoury business.
It kind of pi$$es me off. Sure I can understand that they don't want unnecessary warranty claims etc but last time I looked I'd bought my ECU, i'm certainly not renting it so why should I be dictated to who can reprogram it?? :fighting:
What Bosch are doing with the new RSA encryption is actually a very good thing and not new at all, most ECU systems including the EDC16/ME9 that was introduced in 2004 had something similar and early on us tuners had to remove the ECU to modify the software.
The reason I say its a good thing is that the amateur 'back of a van' or 'buy files for €20 on ebay' tuning brigade will be restricted from tuning new cars. We have now tuned 150+ tricore encrypted ECU's and as long as you have the knowledge and the tools then its just the same as tuning any other ECU system. Heres a video I made and a guide to explain the process:
http://www.dyno-tuning.co.uk/antiTuningRemaps/
No different really to how we were tuning the PD140 engine back in 2004/5
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Yea its chipping so ecu hardware, if i remember correctly i think is concentrating on wiring hardware mods that could cause fire ( eg thats why the hids are there too ) not really any trouble for us as we all use software, but it shows that the government are starting to outlaw some aftermarket performance products
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As much as I like the freedom to tune, it's also a nightmare over here and it needs some control. As it stands, you can do pretty much anything to your car and as long as it'll pass an MOT, then it's golden. No checks are made on the quality of the parts or work. We're not talking about "us" as such, but look at some of the crap on the roads that's modded and you'll see why.
When I go to shows and whatnot, I'm never ceased to be amazed at the dangerous and disgusting work I see on cars in the name of 'modding'... cages held in by self-tappers, you name it.
There are many, many dangerous cars on the road that because of the outdated MOT system can drive on the road. I don't want them near me, or anyone else I know.
In Germany you can mod your car, but with caveats. You can do 90% of the mods we do (cages are iffy, unless you can prove it's for competition) and when you take your car for its annual check, you have a log book containing the list of everything extra/different about the car. Everything in that log book is checked in addition to the normal routine and is signed off as safe. The parts HAVE to be TUV approved - so no dangerous/untested Chinese et al tat off ebay.
Checking ECU's for maps?? I can't say it'll be widely checked, more kept in the bank when finding evidence for cases against dangerous driving etc. But the rest of the MOT and modding scene I'm 100% behind them in updating the regulations around it.
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Perhaps a route to assist towards improved regulation, would be a check that all mods fitted at MOT were covered by suitable Insurance, the onus being placed on the car owner to prove his insurance specifically listed and fully covered all mods fitted.
This is of course not replacing in any way the much required road-worthy aspect of the Mods fitted.
ps I know some of the mods would not be visible, but at least regulating the more obvious abortions.
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With regards to tuning protection it doesn't matter what they do someone will always beat it. Look at the Nissan GT-R that was supposedly un-tuneable and if you tried it shut itself down and made you commit Hari Kari. 18 months later Cobb Tuning had solved the problem. Even though each car manufacturer will undoubtedly employ the best people they can to encrypt the cars ECU etc. There is always some geek somewhere in the world who armed with not much more than a speak n spell will find a way to beat the tuning.
But i too am getting starting to get fed up with the amount of restrictions that the EU are starting to impose. As Stu says i own my car thus own everything from the Lacquer inwards. Next i'll be getting told i can't paint the walls in my house!
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VAG have already implemented Tuning Protection 10 which effectively locks your ECU with 1024 bit RSA encryption. That in itself is killing off the remapping market. The only way around it at the moment is to remove and open the ECU for programming which in itself is a rather unsavoury business.
It kind of pi$$es me off. Sure I can understand that they don't want unnecessary warranty claims etc but last time I looked I'd bought my ECU, i'm certainly not renting it so why should I be dictated to who can reprogram it?? :fighting:
What Bosch are doing with the new RSA encryption is actually a very good thing and not new at all, most ECU systems including the EDC16/ME9 that was introduced in 2004 had something similar and early on us tuners had to remove the ECU to modify the software.
The reason I say its a good thing is that the amateur 'back of a van' or 'buy files for €20 on ebay' tuning brigade will be restricted from tuning new cars. We have now tuned 150+ tricore encrypted ECU's and as long as you have the knowledge and the tools then its just the same as tuning any other ECU system. Heres a video I made and a guide to explain the process:
http://www.dyno-tuning.co.uk/antiTuningRemaps/
No different really to how we were tuning the PD140 engine back in 2004/5
I've seen that video before and I don't think anyone was trying to say tuning TP10 ECU's wasn't possible however it is much more intrusive and has limitations.
Can you unlock an ECU and then tune via OBD for instance with an AlienTech handheld??
Your video doesn't show the opening procedure or the drilling out of sheer bolts, so really only offers the 'glossy' aspect of it.
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Down n dirty with lots of drilling, eh?
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No drilling required with the right tools, snap-on sell a socket that removes the shear bolts. I use the same tool that Audi use to heat the shear bolts to melt the glue and they come out easily.
Opening the ECU, again is simple with the right tools and leaves no marks or damage. Benefit to this is that this type of work troubles the amateur tuners as they simply dont have a clue so phases them out of the industry but to those of us that have been opening and soldering ECU's for years its something we do every day.
And no, you cant go on to use any form of OBD tool to alter the maps once the ECU has been programmed via bootmode.
It wont be long now before a solution to tricore encryption has been developed, but opening ECU's isnt a big deal, did 2 volvos today that required bench flashing via BDM (background debug mode) I actually prefer this method as its far more stable than OBD.
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How about doing a video to show removing the ECU and opening it, it may help ease peoples concerns. Certainly something I'm not too keen on so would be interested to see the process. :evilgrin:
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Will do one next time one comes in :happy2:
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Sounds good, look forward to it. :happy2: