MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: fuscobal on February 21, 2011, 09:22:49 am
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Since I haven't seen a topic dedicated to this, I would like to start one and ask for everyone who has weight data of different components (OEM or aftermarket) to share them here. Loosing weight on our cars is beneficial for both straight line and circuit performance. Until now, some data can be found scattered on the forums about brakes and wheels but what about chairs, rear bench, body panels, exhaust, battery...? The data I have until now (measured by me or by others) :
- GTI front brake system > aprox 15Kg/corner
- R32/S3/Cupra front brake system > aprox 21.5Kg/corner
- Aftermarket 4&6 pot brake systems > 10-13Kg/corner
- Carbotech RP2 brake pads for R32 calipers > 1.126Kg/set (0.563Kg/pc)
- GTI rear bench > 27.5Kg
- GTI rear seat board > 1-2Kg (estimated)
- OEM 17" Denvers > 10.5Kg/pc
- OEM 18" Detroit > 12.5Kg/pc
- OEM 17" + 225/45/17 winter tires > 23Kg/pc
- BBS RS-GT 19" + 235/35/19 summer tires > 21Kg/pc
- OEM DMF flywheel > 11Kg
- Sachs SRS SMF flywheel > 7.2Kg
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This needs checking but IIRC approx 10kg is saved by replacing the oem steel bonnet with a double-skin carbonfibre one.
Chucking away the bonnet liner also saves a little weight.
Monza 17's weigh 11kg, Monza 18's weigh 12kg, and the lightest 18's are 8kg - All without tyres.
The oem engine cover weighs a ton but you have to take into account the weight of an aftermarket intake, but the Forge Twintake for example is very light.
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VW Racing Carbon Bonnet 4,5kg :happy2:
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VW Racing Carbon Bonnet 4,5kg :happy2:
....I'm pretty sure that's a single skin carbon bonnet and also I don't think that VWR don't offer them any longer. Availability would need checking.
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Single skin referring to a dual part bonnet. As this (VWR) doesn't use glassfiber as used in your OSIR product, the VWR is a real Carbon bonnet and not single or dual CF bonnet.
A single skin CF bonnet is only CF on the outside and you can see the glassfiber on the inside, whereas a dual skin is 3 layer, CF on top then Glassfiber core and the CF on the inside for show :happy2:
:wink: :drinking:
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VWR bonnet is discontinued.
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Removed engine cover a long time ago :smiley: I would also be curious to see if there's also any difference in weight between the OEM exhaust and the Milltek non-res TBE ! Front chairs are extremely heavy also (I would guestimate about 30kg each) !
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GTI rear seat board is more about 5kg
OZ Ultraleggera 8x18 ET 45 are 8.4kg
OEM battery is 17kg
Braille lightweight battery B2015 is 6.8kg
OEM front whishbones are 3.9kg each
TT alloy wishbones are 2.8kg each
Recaro Sporter CS are (clamed) 17kg each
Oem seats are 25/30kg estimated each
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GTI rear seat board is more about 5kg
OZ Ultraleggera 8x18 ET 45 are 8.4kg
....What are you calling a "seat board"?
OZ Alleggerita 8x18 are 8.035kg :P :grin:
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My battery ( Power cell 3000 deep cycle ) weighs no less than 27.1 Kg :jumping: !
OEM piston > 460g
OEM rod > 567g
IE rod > 581g
Both rods were with bolts and bearings !
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OEM right engine mount > 1875g for the old one that came with the car (2006 model) and 1911g for the updated one that looks much more robust
OEM pulley > 1639g
Fluidampr pulley > 2738g
OEM upper strut mount > 1051g
Bilstein B16 front spring > 1444g
Bilstein B16 front damper > 3831g
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I'm gonna get a bit technical here on weight saving. You could remove the spare wheel, jack and tools. There's a fair bit weight saved there. Job done get a brew on ;)
Just hope you don't have a puncture lol
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Spare wheel + tools have like 15Kg. What I'm afraid though is not having a too light rear after removing these and the rear seats !
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I would look to the front of the car and focus on brakes and suspension to lose some unsprung mass. I am hoping brakes and bottom arms will save 5kg per corner, then adjust the suspension accordingly and add horsepower. That will be the most effective performance for your money. Battery is interesting though !
CF panels would be very nice but very expensive :happy2:
I spent a lot of time lightening a semi track car before and it gets very expensive, with doors, wings etc in alloy or Carbon. Usually the big wins are :
Front Seats
rear seats & Trim (If you are prepared to lose rear seats etc)
Doors (may beed a cage to deal with side impact protection)
Bonnet, wings in CF
Wheels, brakes (win, win)
Exhaust (win, win) - suspect nothing much to be gained here
Flywheel (win, win)
Remove stuff you don't need !
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You know the funny thing is alot of the people that go this route and strip the cars right down to save weight when you see them or a photo of them it often makes me PMSL.
Because they never look at themselfs and think, hey i could do with loosing quite a few KG myself that may help :grin:
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Some ideas:
1. hood, fenders, doors, hatch
made of glass fiber or carbon fiber from Becker, Seibon and others
- 12 kg to - 35 kg
2. suspension
H&R, Öhlins and others make aluminium struts and dampers
racing coils are also lighter
arms and hubs from S3 or TT
- 10 kg to -20 kg
3. front bar behind bumper
Golf: made of steel; A3: made of aluminium
- 10 kg just 1.8 kg (so just drill and cut the stock one)
4. no DSG
- 40 kg
5. front seats
GTI 32 kg
GTI Motorsport: 22 kg
Recaro PolePosition: 12 kg
- 40 kg / pair
6. battery
stock: 16 - 20 kg
eg Braille: 8 kg
~ - 10 kg
7. damping
I suppose not worth considering for most of us
~ - 5 kg to 10 kg
8. wheels
from 8 kg to 15 kg per piece, stock are 11 kg and 12 kg
~ 4 kg x 4 = 16 kg, but these are ROTATIONAL masses !!
9. tyres
between 8 kg and 12 kg per piece
save up to - 16 kg (rotational masses as well)
10. luxory options
sunroof, leather, stereo and many gimmics more
up to - 100 kg possible
11. interior & rear seats
rear seats about 50 kg
airbags not worth considering for street use in my opinion
save 50 kg
12. brakes
~ - 5 kg
13. car jack + spare wheel
there's an aluminum jack from Audi (half the weight to steel one)
I removed the spare wheel and replaced ist by a tyrefit kit.
- 5 kg to 15 kg less
14. windows
replace side glass by Lexan or Macrolon
saves 25 kg and lowers center of gravity
:wink:
So from 200 kg to 300 kg is possible. What's realistic just depends
on the ride comfort you still need and on your budget.
:driver:
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You know the funny thing is alot of the people that go this route and strip the cars right down to save weight when you see them or a photo of them it often makes me PMSL.
Because they never look at themselfs and think, hey i could do with loosing quite a few KG myself that may help :grin:
I also find this quite funny!
Unless you strip a lot of the car to save a lot of weight I don't really see the benefits... say you save 15kg on an Ed30 - that's the equivalent to increasing the power by 2bhp/tonne which isn't going to make any real-world difference. Even 100kg is only going to increase power by about 13bhp/tonne.
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When I replace the bumper bar, the bonnet and the battery I will loose 30 kg
of weight on the front of the car. That will help cornering.
No horsepower of this world will do the same. :wink:
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marka, The bruce is right. It's not about being faster on a straight line. Loosing weight helps cornering much more than increasing power. Today I've learned something new : the bar behind the bumper and Lexan instead of the side glasses ! Bruce, can you give me more details about these ? What's the cost for both ? Do you have a part number for the bar behind the bumper ? Are you talking about all 4 side glasses ? Lexan website is down now :(
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Thanks, that makes more sense! :happy2:
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Audi S3: 8P0 807 113 D (80 € in Germany) - requires some modification GTI bumper/grill
There are some manufacturers cutting Lexan and bending it to the reight shape for common cars.
Even with a black frame to cover the glue and as an option with a hard laquer to prevent scratches.
(similar to the Golf's headlights)
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This is the closest I've found > (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg21.imageshack.us%2Fimg21%2F9598%2Fa3s3sidereinforcement.jpg&hash=0a306087663108f44de74d81436247fa1d3915d8) (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/a3s3sidereinforcement.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us) and it's with ''B'' at the end. The code for GTI one is 1K5 807 109 E. What do you need to modify on the GTI bumper/grill so that the A3/S3 side reinforcement bar fits our cars ?
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I didn' try it yet. I just had held the A3 bar when I had my bumper removed
(for fitting the Votex splitter).
I don't think that the GTI bumper has to be modified. But the A3/S3 bar has to.
The GTI steel bar has a bracket on top in the middle to hold the grill. I don't
know if this is really needed. I it is, it must be cut from steel bar and screwed
to the aluminum bar.
The second point is the tow ring. There are some differences as well. But still
no big problem.
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Brembo GT junior kit with 330x28mm discs :
- disc > 8.8kg
- caliper with pads > 3326g (the pads only have 8mm meat as compared to my Carbotech RP2 wich have 13mm !!!)
- caliper carrier > 818g
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Bruce, I have the opportunity of switching the bars with an A3. Hopefully all will go well and I will make some pics. Did you make any progress with it ?
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Do you think you could remove too much wgt? Make the car too light that traction off the line is effected? Possible?
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Fuscobal, unfortunately I have not.
But I'm very interested to see how it works. :wink:
S3dubbin, NO. :signLOL:
Of course there are some places where it helps more and some where it helps less.
Save weight on front and way up (roof, windows) and more on the driver's side (UK)
than on passenger side. The engine is much heavier than the gear box.
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The front rear weight balance is very poor, I would not bother reducing any weight at the back of the car. My Pirelli came in at 918kg over the front axle, 526kg over the rear. This is with 1/2 a tank of Petrol, TD pro race alloys and TT arms. If the front mounting bar weighs a lot this could be interesting, frankly VW should have tried harder to mount the engine further back in the chassis. Coming from an E92 M3 you do understand the difference when the manufacture tries harder with basics before they look at the right bits.
I will enjoy my Pirelli and will continue to tweak, knowing it's a GTi. So far Stage 2, PSS9, TT lower arms, Neuspeed arb's, WALK, 8x18's, awaiting VWR brakes or AP Racing, Forge twintercooler (to keep the modest stage 2 on the money in all weather) for me the power is more than adequate for the shell. I thoroughly enjoy the chassis and car in the knowledge it comes from a more humble starting point, expect too much and there will be disappointment !
I keep looking at the BMW 1M....... :smiley: at £40k it really ain't bad when you look at the build and bits.... 9 and 10" 19's with good tyres, M3 brakes, M3 light alloy suspension, 3.0 L twin turbo, superb diff, close ratio box, etc
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What I can do on front besides the reinforcement bar is the battery. I now have the Power Cell 3000 wich weighs an impressive 27Kg > http://www.carhifishop.at/Power-Cell-3000-Batterie . I have recently found a battery that can take care decently of my audio system and weighs only 12.5Kg > Odyssey ER40 > http://www.odysseybatteries.com/batteries.htm
Problem is, my Powercell has like 95Ah and the Odyssey only 45Ah. I hope it will meet my demand as I'm not listening to my music at loud volumes or with the engine shut down !
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This is the issue with the lightweight batteries, but if you take care not to run electronic systems in the car with the engine off for too long you should be fine. It is the crank amps you need to ensure match up. Try the Braille batteries. I'm sure someone on here has a 9.5kg one fitted with no side effects. Crank amps are impressive too at over 1300
http://www.braillebattery.co.uk/index.php/batteries/b3121/
Or if you want it to look sexier, you can have it with added carbon fibre :drool:
http://www.braillebattery.co.uk/index.php/batteries/b3121c/
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Just finished installing the A3 reinforcement bar and let me tell you Bruce, your weight difference estimation is waaay off :))) The difference between the 2 of them is only 1.5Kg (7.1 for the steel one and 5.6 for the aluminium). After removing one of the ''lips'' of the S3 bar, because it was touching my Forge twintercooler, I gained anothe 0.3Kg so that made a total saving of 1.8Kg (far less than the 10Kg you estimated). The shape difference of the 2 bars is also quite difference and you need to add the bracket on the middle and you need to fabricate some others at the 2 ends of the bar. I improvised all these for the moment because the shops were closed and I didn't find any universal iron to finish the job properly. I said I should finish it once started but wouldn't recommend anyone to do it because the weight saving is too small !
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg687.imageshack.us%2Fimg687%2F3967%2Fa3bar1.jpg&hash=176511e5448f8c6e4fb46ff15afecabe666b57c5) (http://img687.imageshack.us/i/a3bar1.jpg/)
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:surprised:
Pardon me, I really thought there would be more difference !!
:ashamed: :ashamed: :ashamed:
Gladly you did a great job. I guess it must have been a hard one as well.
:confused:
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Replacing the bars takes like 2 hours including trimming the A3 one but you need another 1-2 hours to fabricate new brackets in order to reinforce the whole assembly comprising the radiators and the FMIC. As it is now, the assembly is a little loose if you grab it with your hand and shake it. I will buy some universal iron and custom make the brackets ! Next on the list is the battery : Odyssey or Braille wich should save me like 15Kg !
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Now having the bar is on your GTI you might like to drill it with
large holes on all four sides to save quite a bit more weight?
I still worry about my self being mistaken so much. :ashamed:
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Great write up. Thanks heaps for doing this exercise, shame the saving is minimal :ashamed:
I think I will concentrate on settings to dial out understeer and improve turn in and balance. tbh given the weight over the front axle I should be very pleased !
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After the battery I will concentrate on seats + wheels + brakes and I will probably stop here. The savings made until now would be :
- subwoofer + enclosure > 34.5Kg
- spare wheel + tools > 17.5Kg
- MDF sheet over the amplifiers > 8.2Kg
- Rear seats > 27.5Kg
- Reinforcement bar > 1.8Kg
TOTAL until now : 89.5Kg
Next :
- Battery > 15Kg
- S3 hubs (on the way) > 4Kg
- Recaro Poleposition > 28Kg (OEM seats are 26Kg/piece with leather and heating)
- Brakes > 18Kg
- Wheels > 12Kg
TOTAL : 77Kg
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if you save a lot of weight and then increase torque/bhp, is there anywhere where you could have a "weigh in" and work out the bhp/ton of your car after carrying out the above? weight watchers for cars?
would be interesting to compare with the factory figure
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Ok, just installed the S3 hubs. See the whole stoy here :
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136174&page=2
- subwoofer + enclosure > 34.5Kg
- spare wheel + tools > 17.5Kg
- MDF sheet over the amplifiers > 8.2Kg
- Rear seats > 27.5Kg
- Reinforcement bar > 1.8Kg
- S3 hubs (on the way) > 3Kg
TOTAL until now : 92.5Kg
Next :
- Battery > 15Kg
- Recaro Poleposition > 28Kg (OEM seats are 26Kg/piece with leather and heating)
- Brakes > 18Kg
- Wheels > 12Kg
TOTAL : 73Kg
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165kg out of the car is no mean achievement.
I also went with the Autotech lightweight anti-roll bars which claim to save weight too. Not cheap though!
http://www.jbsautodesigns.co.uk/product/371/lightweight-anti-roll-bar-front-25mm
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What exactly do you mean by "no mean achievement" ? How much time do you think this weight reduction could shave of a 2'18'' time on Hungaroring ?
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What exactly do you mean by "no mean achievement" ?
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/no-mean-achievement-feat
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What exactly do you mean by "no mean achievement" ?
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/no-mean-achievement-feat
:happy2:
If you had full weight when the 2'18" was done and have the same power now (and the weather conditions,tyres are similar). Then I'd reckon losing 165kg would save you at least 5 seconds.
This is based on me digging deep with technical equations, geometry calculations, power to weight and weight distribution analysis i.e. realistically spending the last 2hrs on Gran Turismo 5 trying different cars on different tracks to see what lightening the cars would do on there :laugh:
The things I do for you guys just to answer a post eh! :drinking:
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All in the name of Science and support forumites eh John :happy2:
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All in the name of Science and support forumites eh John :happy2:
Too right :signLOL:
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Thanks for clarifying Hedge, english is not my native language :) Hurdy, If so at 2'13'' the car would be really fast as the fastest I've seen on that track from track only cars with 400HP and 1200kg + slicks is about 2'05''-2'08'' !
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sorry to semi hijack thread but which light battery is recommended - is it a braille? can i just order one directly from them?
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If you are stage 3, then you should be around 360hp? and 165kg out of a manual should put you around 1250kg.
Not too far off with some sticky tyres :happy2:
I'd be surprised if you didn't knock at least 3 seconds off with all that weight out of the car.
5 seconds would be on a perfect lap, with a few brave pills. :laugh:
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sorry to semi hijack thread but which light battery is recommended - is it a braille? can i just order one directly from them?
http://www.braillebattery.co.uk/index.php/batteries/b3121/
:happy2:
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The braille is just 31Ah, the Odyssey I want to buy has 45Ah wich is a little better but also 12.5Kg as compared to 9.5Kg for the Braille. However, due to my audio system, I have to use a deepcycle battery that can be fully recharged from 0. Hurdy, my car had 1664Kg with me and 55% gas (the audio system only is about 150 to 180Kg). So with the 165Kg out of the car I will be in the region of 1500Kg (with me inside) ! In the list above, I haven't deducted the speakers + the front doors (+10-15Kg per door as compared to OEM due to massive fiberglass speaker panels) + the amplifiers + rack (about 50Kg ). I only put out the subwoofer from the system !
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^^^^ :surprised:^^^^^^
That is one hefty car Fuscobal.
Or should I say was :smiley:
It doesn't take much sound equipment in a car to ramp up the weight.
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Yes Hurdy, I know. Unfortunately it's sooo hard for me to let go my audio system as sound is for a passion as big as car's performance. This sound system also brought me 2 times the 3rd place in Europe at sound quality in 2006 and 2007 and it got even better now !
On topic :
- BBS RS-GT 8.5x19 + 235/35/19 GY asymmetric > 21.7 Kg !
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:happy2:
That's very ok for this dimension.
ps:
swap for home hifi - even heavier, but it doesn't affect your lap times :signLOL:
(I do it this way: Linn LP12/Pass PearlOno/Pass Aleph/Odeon horn speakers)
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Nice system Bruce. Congrats, didn't know you're into this ! :drinking:
My car system says :
- Clarion DRZ 9255 Head Unit (made with McIntosh) > this unit + the voltage converter weigh in at max 1Kg more than the OEM unit they replaced
- Audison VRX 4.300, 1.500 and 2.150 (these 3 have 23.6Kg + another around 30Kg for the lower and upper MDF bords, cables, distributors...). We are talking about 55Kg wich sit exactly on top of the rear wheels. This have the benefit of keeping the rear planted but I don't know if this benefit is smaller or bigger than just removing those 55Kg from the car
- 2 x Micro Precision 7series / door (the doors are heavily damped and the 2 speaker are sitting on a massive 2cm fiberglass panel > we are talking of some 7-10Kg/door more than OEM)
- Scan-Speak revelator 12M midrange installed on the dashboard (these don't count for more than 1Kg in total)
- Scan-Speak revelator 700001 tweeters (these also don't count for more than 1Kg in total)
- Brax Matrix 10.1 subwoofer + enclosure > 34.5Kg (this can be taken off and installed back in if needed)
- Power Cell 3000 > 27Kg (don't really need this much current for my listening levels so this is where I'll lose weight first)
The small room (computer room) audio system :
Computer > Benchmark DAC 1 > Vincent 226 amp > Chario Academy Millenium 2 bookshelfs
The big room audio system :
EMM Labs CDSAse > Pass Labs XP10 > Pass Labs X250.5 > Usher BE-10
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I love the danish Scan Speak !! :happy2:
(10 years ago I built a couple of speakers on my own, most of them with Seas chassis)
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Cool to know we share another passion also :happy2:
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Chaps, now your talking my language :wink:
Home cinema and CD room: JVC HD100 (looking to upgrade) with fixed 134" screen and variable masking, Denon A1UD, Naim AV2, Naim 32.5, Supercap, 7 x Naim 135's, Sonus Faber Extrema F LR, Cremona centre, Elector amator rears, equalised Gravis sub, A few DAC's enjoying a modded DAc Majic at the moment
Vinyl Music room : LP12, syrinx, Koetsu Red K, Tron reference pre, Tron 211 power amp, Air Scout Living voice full range horns with external crossovers
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Holy mackerel.... ive jut googled some of your gear! :embarrassed:
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Holy mackerel.... ive jut googled some of your gear! :embarrassed:
:surprised:
Any chance of a listen Mr Carrera? :smiley:
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:happy2:
My LP12 is 20 years old. :smiley:
Classic Ittok LVIII Mk.2 arm, Troika MC (rebuilt). DIY CNC-built Keal chassis.
Have an Linn Axis with Akito as well and a Rega Planar 2 with RB300.
Also some good old amps like my Cyrus One, Linn LK1 preamp with Dirak
and two LK2/60 power amps (all are heavily modded).
You see I like Brit-Fi. :evilgrin:
Some years ago I was more on the audio forums.
:drinking:
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Holy mackerel.... ive jut googled some of your gear! :embarrassed:
Most of it was bought secondhand, the 'old Hifi' is worth roughly what I paid, which makes buying justifiable. Not 'cheap' I'll grant you, but a 30 year passion :smiley:
Sorry for keeping off topic
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Ok guys, here's the situation I'm in now :
1) 17'' OEM denvers + Kumho V70 R compound on 225/45/17 + R32 front brakes (Carbotech RP2 pads). The weights are 23Kg for the wheel + 21.5Kg for the brakes wich leads to a total of 44.5Kg of unsprung mass
This is the setup I will go to soon :
2) 18" TD pro race 1.2 + Kumho V70 R compound on 225/40/18 + Ap Racing 6pot 362x32 (Carbotech RP2 pads). The weights are 19.5Kg for the wheel + 12Kg for the brakes wich leads to a total of 31.5Kg of unsprung mass
PS1 : The weight saving would be around 13Kg/wheel wich I consider to be huge. From this respect I'm quite sure I will ease my coilover's job of following the track more efficiently and faster. I will also have far better brakes but...I'm not sure the 225/40/18 tires will be as good as 225/45/17
PS2 : I've also changed the arms (TT alloy with adjustable camber) and Hubs (S3 alloy). I've gained 1.2Kg from the arms and 1.5Kg from the hubs + a lot more negative camber (-2.3 as compared to -1 until now). These 2.7Kgs from the arms and hubs brought me more comfort while keeping the fast coilover response ?!?! Since the hub is just a solid piece of metal, I can't see how it can contribute to increasing the comfort other than by it's own reduced mass wich helps the coilover moving more efficiently !
Now, the question comes : Do you estimate the benefits of 13Kgs weight reduction and better brakes will outcome the possible loss of grip from the 18'' as compared to 17'' ? Does anyone know a track test between 17'' and 18'' with the same tire, on the same car ?
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I don't know any test comparing 17" and 18" except http://www.kumhomotorsport.pl/prasa/AutoBild_0205.pdf (http://www.kumhomotorsport.pl/prasa/AutoBild_0205.pdf).
But I have discussed this issue to Raeder Motorsport and some
other mates doing motorsports.
So I'm sure there is no loss of grip with the 18". Raeder prefers
225/40 R18 on Golf and A3.
Most of the professional teams currently also use 18".
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Yes, Bruce but it depends what tire they use on 18''. I'm afraid that 225/40/18 hasn't got enough sidewall. Racing cars may use 275/35/18 for ex wich has more sidewall !
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No, I have spoken about Golf class touring cars including Scirocco and BMW 1- and 3 series.
Most of them use 240-18 or similar.
I now have found one more review for you:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.golfvigti.com%2Fupload%2Fdirect%2Fi_14_3127_0_78_1306181763_7119.jpg&hash=046a10d7fd547d097ee498f2cf77c64f7061f019)
'White'' ist stock Ambition 17" and ''blue'' is 225/40 R18 Hankook S1 on 8x18,
both with stock suspension.
I currently run 17" on Denvers. I will defintely go for 18" Direzzas when the
Federals are worn.
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Slicks use a different system of measurement altogether, a 250/640/18 has an identical diameter to a 220/640/18 and a 320/640/18 - the diameter is a measurement rather than a percentage of the width.
I believe the BMW BTCC cars use 235/610/17 and the WTCC cars run 240/610/17.
What do the Seat supacopas run?
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What do the Seat supacopas run?
Yokohama
210/650 R 18 wet
230/650 R 18 dry
http://www2.yokohama-online.com/ch/motor-sport-event.php?pageID=22114
Volkswagen Motorsport Sciroccos R cup and 24h use 18" as well.
Of course 17" won't be much slower on most circumstances.
Biggest argument for 17" is the price !! And I strongly believe that
17" Direzzas will be faster than most 18" semis.
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Thing is without access to the regs it is difficult to know why they are running a given wheel size, wheel size is often dictated by brake size, I have heard people say to run the smallest wheel that will fit over your brakes and certainly don't believe that the bigger the better, the only way to be sure is to do a back to back in the car being discussed with the same driver and an engineer on hand to adjust the geo and damping to suit the tyre. I doubt there is a hard and fast x size is quicker rule that works across all cars and all setups due to the implications of weight, the way tyre side wall acts as part of the suspension, slip angles of tyres etc etc.
Have you compared Michelin Pilot Sport Cups to Direzzas? On my other car the MPSC really is very good indeed for a road legal tyre, I'd be surprised if anything was faster on that car, Golfs may differ obviously.
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Nathan,
I never tried Direzzas on my car and I never tried PS Cup. I cant't afford testing
all makes of tyres.
But I know some people doing motorsports and talk to them nearly every week.
I have some friends doing Autocross as I do and some professinals like Chris Breuer
at Raeder Motorsport. Further on I see what kind tyres win the races.
So that's (just) one basis for my point of view. I want to win. So I'm going to buy
the right stuff that provides first places. The PS Cup is one of the very best semis,
the V70 as well. But the Direzza currently is even better imho.
I know about choosing wheel sizes depending on regs an brake dimensions.
But this does not mean with a smaller brake you better go for smaller wheels.
I also never said ''bigger is better''. I know about ''rotational masses'' and the
damping properties of tyres. I currently have three sets of wheels, 17", 18" and 19".
No doubt - 19" is slowest.
So I'm wondering if you misunderstood me. :wink:
Fact is:
- Raeder recommends 18" for track days (''Touristenfahrten'')
- Volkswagen Motorsport uses 18" on Leon, Scirocco and Golf
- formely many teams used 17"
So you can make your opinion by yourself. :wink:
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http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/board,27.0.html > Anyone ? :party:
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Hi The Bruce - Sorry, I wasn't saying you had said bigger the better, just saying that I didn't think like that.
All I was getting at is wondering if Seat would've specified 18" wheels if they had smaller brakes? I guess we will never know.
I run 250/640/18 all round on my car despite the road car coming on 19" wheels (235/35/19 & 265/30/19), I'd give 17" wheels a go if they fitted over the brakes.
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Old steering rack (2006) > 13.4Kg
New steering rack (2011) > 12.2Kg
Just replaced the old worn steering rack with the new gen3 one wich is also 1.2Kg lighter as it seems :smiley:
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Any issues with the change ??
Is it bolt directly to the subframe (I guess)?
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quite a bit of movement in my steering wheel. Have some suspect handling atm. If tyres, alignment and check of ball joints/top mounts/bushes etc doesnt fix it new rack may be another kilo lost :) Depending which one I have on currently
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Seat Leon Supacopa
210/650 R 18 wet
230/650 R 18 dry
Scirocco R cup:
240/640 R18
(AP Racing 356 mm)
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Old steering rack (2006) > 13.4Kg
New steering rack (2011) > 12.2Kg
Just replaced the old worn steering rack with the new gen3 one wich is also 1.2Kg lighter as it seems :smiley:
Did you bother with polybush?
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No polybush. Install was easy but needed some coding with VAS since the wiring of the new generation was different !
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Any change in steering feel?
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Just much more responsive. The old one had some sort of a lag lately wich got really bad in the last few months !
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:happy2:
I guess the newer steering rack is bolted directly to the subframe without any rubber.
Am I right?
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Didn't pay attention to that as I was speaking on the phone at the time my mechanic was installing it on the subframe :ashamed:
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Hi, I'd just like to add some further info to this thread, my car has been acting "funny" (alarm light constant red and trip mileage resetting by magic after locking).
So, I checked the battery indicator and it was clear (with a warning message to replace if clear or yellow).
Looking online for part number 000 915 105 AF I found this link:
http://www.thetradepartsspecialists.co.uk/pdf/SpecChart02_VartaAndQuantum-03.xls
This spreadsheet claims my 000 915 105 AF battery is 19.2Kg the 70Ah battery also mentioned in this thread is 17.9kg
If you're still using your factory battery use this sheet to check weights (assuming its accurate...)
I need 72Ah / 640amps so I could save a couple of KGs by simply swapping like for like.
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I'd go for this one:
http://audittmk1.blogspot.com/2009_10_01_archive.html
I don't understand why a gasoline GTI should need such a massive 72 Ah 'tank'.
Keep in mind most A3 2.0 TFSI just have 60 Ah and that's way more than neccessary.
OEM:
TT 312mm - 14.5 kg
GTI 312mm - 15.6 kg
TT-S 340mm - 18.5kg
S3/R32 345mm - 21.5 kg
TT-RS 370mm - 17 kg
RS4/RS6 365mm - 17 kg
RS6 V10 390mm - 21.5 kg
Non OEM:
AP Racing 330x28mm - 10.6 kg
VW-R 352x32mm - 12 kg
K-Sport 330x32er - 13.8 kg
K-Sport 356x32mm - 15.9 kg (with AP Racing rotor: 14.2 kg)
D2 - dito
Brembo 355x32mm - 13 kg
(one caliper + disc + pads + bolts + adapter)
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Ap Racing Pro 5000+ 362x32mm - 13.9 Kg (measured and owned by me :smiley: )
I will probably buy this battery > http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/er40.htm wich only has 12.5Kg and 45Ah (should be enough for a gas engine)
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Fuscobal, you need to loose a lot of weight. :wink:
Throw away all the hifi - it's the age of racing now !!
OEM:
TT 312mm - 14.5 kg
GTI 312mm - 15.6 kg*
TT-S 340mm - 18.5kg
S3/R32 345mm - 21.5 kg
TT-RS 370mm - 17 kg
RS4/RS6 365mm - 17 kg
RS6 V10 390mm - 21.5 kg
Non OEM:
AP Racing 330x28mm - 10.6 kg
VW-R 352x32mm - 12 kg
K-Sport 330x32er - 13.8 kg
AP Racing 362x32mm - 13.9 Kg Pro 5000+
K-Sport 356x32mm - 15.9 kg (with AP Racing rotor: 14.2 kg)
D2 - dito
Brembo 355x32mm - 13 kg
(one caliper + disc + pads + bolts + bracket)
* rotor 8 kg / caliper 6 kg / pads about 500 g
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Ok, here's some new data :
- TD 1.2 8x18'', ET45 + 235/40/18 > 20.5Kg as compared to 21Kg for my OEM 7.5x17'', ET51 + 225/45/17. I only saved 0.5Kg/wheel but the tires are 20mm wider (235 R888 have 245 in reality) wich should give me much more grip
- Recaro Poleposition + steel sidemounts > 10Kg, baseframes > 7Kg. Unfortunately I got a total of 17Kg wich is much more than what I was expecting. Only 9Kg/seat. For those who don't need to slide the seats back/forward, you can get fixed sidemounts and stay with the 10Kg/seat !
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After all you've done with your GTI it would be a fantastic car if you sell the hifi.
:evilgrin:
More seriously:
Yes, I'm sure these wheels and tyres will improve grip. The heavier a car is
the more it will usually benefit from wider tyres.
I will go for this battery: http://www.em-racing.de/Motorsport-Batterie-ETX-30-26Ah-98kg
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I'm modifying the audio system right now. Pulled out the amplifier rack from the back + rear bench and they weighed 45Kg. Instead, I will install 4 lightweight amplifiers (Sinfoni wich are also high-end) wich shouldn't be more than 15Kg. Therefore, the final result should be 45-15 = 30Kg from the rear wheels. Next on the list are the fenders, battery and maybe some lightweight bonnet. Should rach 1480Kg with me (as compared to 1664 wich was the original weight) !
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19" 8.5x19 RS4 reps polished/matt black et45 13.6kg
team dynamics race pro 1.2 8x18 et50 9kg
team dynamics race pro 1.3 8.5x18 et50 9.8kg
ATS racelight 8.5x19 ET45 10.9kg
oz ultraleggera hlt 9x19 et42 10.4kg
OZ Ultraleggera HLT 8.5x19 9.6 kg
BBS RE 040 19x9 et50 10.7kg
HRE P40S 9x19 ET52 is 9.25kg
275/35/18 ps2 11.8kg
255/35/19 ps2 10.4kg
255/30/20 conti 10.3kg
265/35/18 cup sport 11.4kg
245/35/19 Cup Sport 9.9 kg
255/35/19 pss 11.1kg
245/35/19 wintrak extreme 11.2kg
brakes per side inc disk/caliper/carrier
tt 312mm 14.5kg
tts 340mm 20kg
s3/r32 345mm 21.4kg
ttrs 370mm 17kg
rs6 390mm 21.5kg
b7 RS4 8pot caliper with ttrs 370 disks 17.5kg
vwr 352x32 12kg
ksport 356x32 12.25kg
brembo 355x32 13kg
VAG Buckets
Front L Seat. 23.4kg
Front R Seat. 23.4kg
OEM battery 23.0kg
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.
Monza 17's weigh 11kg, Monza 18's weigh 12kg, and the lightest 18's are 8kg - All without tyres.
Nope. Volk P1's 8x18" are 6.7kg each. I have a set :happy2:
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@fuscobal: yes, I read about it in your thread.
Found this:
As far as I know - All the CCA for the manufacturers is done at 0F, and the CA is at 32F, all this info is off the manufacturer website.
Acording to Autozone website the 240sx needs 360 CA.
So if you want 100% factory reliability even at 0F you want to be shoping around for something that will have at least 360CCA.
For those of you where the weather gets in the negative digits (F) you will want somethign that has a CCA > 360 at 0F
The battery I had in (Advance Auto Parts stock replacement stuff) weights 37lb..
READ THIS:
In BLUE are the brands whose CCA Ratings seems either off or make it hard to find their testing methods.
Deka Batteries are more than likely to be Deka ETX rebadged -- Their advirtised CCA IS PROBABLY NOT PERFOMED AT 0F.
By Brand:
Braille**:
Braille B3121 ----------CCA: 550 ---- weight: 21lb ---------------- CA: 742
Braille B2015 ----------CCA: 425 ---- weight: 15lb ---------------- CA: 574
Braille B14115 ---------CCA: 360 ---- weight: 11lb,8oz ------------ CA: 486
Braille B106 -----------CCA: 210 ---- weight: 6lb,6oz ------------- CA: 283
Westco:
Westco Miata ---------CCA: 475 ---- weight: 25lb
Deka:
Deka ETX30 -----------CCA: 370 ---- weight: 21.7lb
Deka ETX20 -----------CCA: 270 ---- weight: 15.5lb
Deka ETX18 -----------CCA: 300 ---- weight: 18lb
Deka ETX16 -----------CCA: 275 ---- weight: 17lb
Deka ETX14 -----------CCA: 200 ---- weight: 12lb
Deka ETX12 -----------CCA: 180 ---- weight: 9.4lb
Deka ETX9 -----------CCA: 120 ---- weight: 6.3lb
Odyssey:
Odyssey PC680 --------CCA: 220 --- weight: 15lb / 16lb For MJT*
Odyssey PC925/MJT ---CCA: 380 --- weight: 24lb / 26lb For MJT*
Optima:
Optima 34&34R --------CCA 800 -----weight: 37.9lb --------------- CA: 1000
Optima 37/78 ----------CCA 800 ---- weight: 38.8lb --------------- CA: 1000
Optima 75/25 ----------CCA 720 ---- weight: 33.1lb --------------- CA: 910
Optima 25&35 ---------CCA 720 ----- weight: 31.7lb --------------- CA: 910
Duralast:
Duralast 8AMU1R ------CCA: 330 ---- weight: 25lb
Marathon:
Marathon MAR-8AMU1R-CCA: 320 ---- weight: 25lb
By CCA:
Optima 34&34R --------CCA 800 -----weight: 37.9lb -------------- CA: 1000
Optima 37/78 ----------CCA 800 ---- weight: 38.8lb -------------- CA: 1000
Optima 75/25 ----------CCA 720 ---- weight: 33.1lb -------------- CA: 910
Optima 25&35 ---------CCA 720 ----- weight: 31.7lb -------------- CA: 910
Braille B3121 ----------CCA: 550 ---- weight: 21lb ---------------- CA: 742
Westco Miata ---------CCA: 475 ---- weight: 25lb
Braille B2015 ----------CCA: 425 ---- weight: 15lb ---------------- CA: 574
Odyssey PC925/MJT ---CCA: 380 ---- weight: 24lb / 26lb For MJT*
Deka ETX30 -----------CCA: 370 ---- weight: 21.7lb
Braille B14115 ---------CCA: 360 ---- weight: 11lb,8oz ------------ CA: 486
Duralast 8AMU1R ------CCA: 330 ---- weight: 25lb
Marathon MAR-8AMU1R-CCA: 320 ---- weight: 25lb
Deka ETX18 -----------CCA: 300 ---- weight: 18lb
Deka ETX16 -----------CCA: 275 ---- weight: 17lb
Deka ETX20 -----------CCA: 270 ---- weight: 15.5lb
Odyssey PC680 --------CCA: 220 ---- weight: 15lb / 16lb For MJT*
Braille B106 -----------CCA: 210 ---- weight: 6lb,6oz ------------- CA: 283
Deka ETX14 -----------CCA: 200 ---- weight: 12lb
Deka ETX12 -----------CCA: 180 ---- weight: 9.4lb
Deka ETX9 -----------CCA: 120 ---- weight: 6.3lb
By Weight:
Optima 37/78 ----------CCA 800 ---- weight: 38.8lb --------------- CA: 1000
Optima 34&34R --------CCA 800 -----weight: 37.9lb --------------- CA: 1000
Optima 75/25 ----------CCA 720 ---- weight: 33.1lb --------------- CA: 910
Optima 25&35 ---------CCA 720 ----- weight: 31.7lb --------------- CA: 910
Westco Miata ---------CCA: 475 ---- weight: 25lb
Duralast 8AMU1R ------CCA: 330 ---- weight: 25lb
Marathon MAR-8AMU1R-CCA: 320 ---- weight: 25lb
Odyssey PC925/MJT ---CCA: 380 --- weight: 24lb / 26lb For MJT*
Deka ETX30 -----------CCA: 370 ---- weight: 21.7lb
Braille B3121 ----------CCA: 550 ---- weight: 21lb ---------------- CA: 742
Braille B14115 ---------CCA: 360 ---- weight: 11lb,8oz ------------ CA: 486
Deka ETX18 -----------CCA: 300 ---- weight: 18lb
Deka ETX16 -----------CCA: 275 ---- weight: 17lb
Deka ETX20 -----------CCA: 270 ---- weight: 15.5lb
Odyssey PC680 --------CCA: 220 --- weight: 15lb / 16lb For MJT*
Braille B2015 ----------CCA: 425 ---- weight: 15lb ---------------- CA: 574
Deka ETX14 -----------CCA: 200 ---- weight: 12lb
Deka ETX12 -----------CCA: 180 ---- weight: 9.4lb
Braille B106 -----------CCA: 210 ---- weight: 6lb,6oz ------------- CA: 283
Deka ETX9 -----------CCA: 120 ---- weight: 6.3lb
More info:
Braile:
Probably Deka rebadged
**no info on website on what Temp the CCA and CA test are done at...
DEKA:
Come with M6 Thread on terminals - you will need adapter to SAE automotive Terminals.
Rebadged as BigCrank, Braille and other brands // BigCrank has cheap price .
(Proved and discussed on the vwvortex there is a whole thread about it.)
Odyssey:
*MJT: Metal Jacket + Terminals.
Also the Odysseys have battery mounting brakets avaible.
Miata Battery:
Duralast rates them at 330CCA, Marathon at 320CCA, Westco at 475CCA,
make what you want of this info but personally I'm not getting a Westco Battery
Made by EastPenn Mfg.
Sold under:
Marathon MAR-8AMU1R (1Year Warranty)
Westco 12V31M (4 Year Warranty)
Duralast 8AMU1R (8Year Warranty - apparently WAS avaible at autozone)
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TT 312mm - 14.5 kg
GTI 312mm - 15.6 kg*
why is there a difference here?
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Odyssey ER40 has 27.5lbs(12.5Kg), 43-45Ah, 500 CCA
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TT 312mm - 14.5 kg
GTI 312mm - 15.6 kg*
why is there a difference here?
What type of TT are we talking about?
The new one (2.0T) or the old one (1.8 T)?
If it's the old one, the discs bell is different (smaller on the TT) which might explain the weight difference.
Just a thought. If I am mistaking please don't shoot.
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New TT I guess as old one is 5x100
Ah but new S3 is 345mm disks so I guess old? Oh Im sooo confused!
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Does anyone know where to get the battery terminal adaptors that screw into the m6 terminals on racing batteries that go to normal terminals?
I have some tt hubs/uprights to fit so I will get some weights on them too. TT uprights mount the ball joint lower than the s3 hubs :happy2:
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Try Paul Adams at Linden batteries :happy2:
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could someone explain something to me:
i've heard before that reducing unsprung weight is more important. now for rotational masses (brake discs, bells, wheels) i understand why this is the case. but why would non-rotational unsprung weight be any different to sprung weight?
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could someone explain something to me:
i've heard before that reducing unsprung weight is more important. now for rotational masses (brake discs, bells, wheels) i understand why this is the case. but why would non-rotational unsprung weight be any different to sprung weight?
Rotational mass is important to reduce for 2 reasons:
1: the centrifugal force, the less rotational weight you have the lighter will the steering be.
2: The total mass the springs/Dampers has to move/control, this is both rotational and non rotational mass. the less weight the springs/dampers has to control the easier their job is. You try to lie flat on a high bench and move a 20 pound weight fast up and down in one of your arms, see how long you can do that, then after you have rested try again with a 5 pound weight and see how long before you get tired. The more weight the dampers has to control the warmer they get as the more mass the more friction there will be in the damper to control which generates to heat and a less effective damper.
Sorry for the way i explain it, but i hope you understand the meaning :drinking:
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no that does make sense.
got a few marginal weight saving mods coming up - bought an NQS with machined drilled discs, and BBS VZs which are a tad lighter than my Pescaras. looking forward to seeing how all that affects the car dynamically. probably not by much i suspect, but i reckon it would be noticable.
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no that does make sense.
got a few marginal weight saving mods coming up - bought an NQS with machined drilled discs, and BBS VZs which are a tad lighter than my Pescaras. looking forward to seeing how all that affects the car dynamically. probably not by much i suspect, but i reckon it would be noticable.
the NQs made a substantial difference to the feel of my front end, although I went from the 345Cupra setup that weighs nearly as much as a bungalow lol
im getting used to the improvent now though, guess its time for Dymag wheels, carbon bonnet, wings and Ti shock bodies :party: :evilgrin: :embarrassed:
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no that does make sense.
got a few marginal weight saving mods coming up - bought an NQS with machined drilled discs, and BBS VZs which are a tad lighter than my Pescaras. looking forward to seeing how all that affects the car dynamically. probably not by much i suspect, but i reckon it would be noticable.
the NQs made a substantial difference to the feel of my front end, although I went from the 345Cupra setup that weighs nearly as much as a bungalow lol
im getting used to the improvent now though, guess its time for Dymag wheels, carbon bonnet, wings and Ti shock bodies :party: :evilgrin: :embarrassed:
wow and how did the braking of the NQS compare to the 345mm set up? must have been strange going down a disc size?
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Try Paul Adams at Linden batteries :happy2:
Ordered some from demon tweeks as we have an account. Came to about 15 quid delivered. So now I can get my oddessy 40 fitted. It's been sat on my toolbox for around 6 months and when I put it back on charge it went straight onto fully charged and maintaining! I will get it on the scales tomorrow.
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Rear seatbelt assembly > 2Kg
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg265.imageshack.us%2Fimg265%2F2219%2Fmosoare1.jpg&hash=aa896e2b14a34d13ed86538784f671dd690b4555) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/265/mosoare1.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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You might also find some inspiration here:
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,59674.msg669054.html#msg669054
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Very good info Bruce. Would the clubsport from Bilstein be available to the general public ?
PS : Didn't finish installing the Reverie wing yet but I reinforced the rear trunck lid to hold the downforce and removed the OEM plastic add-on wich weighed no less than 2.2kg (the 150mm, 1300mm long wing has 0.95kg). In the end it seems I will add no weight to the car with the wing :)
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Clubsport is now available. I can do them. Trying to get a set for the vRS.
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Any price estimation as compared to B16 ? How would it stack against KW Clubsport wich is older on the market ?
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see 2nd latest link below: 3250,-- € :ashamed:
BTW, my eyes tell me main springs are 100 N/mm + 75 N/mm
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http://www.bilstein.de/en/products/bilstein-clubsport/bilstein-clubsport.html
http://motorsport.bilstein.de/en/home/motorsport-news/motorsport-news/noticias/archive/2012/december/returnpage/1354/article/high-end-gewindefahrwerk-fuer-vw-golf-vi-gti.html
TÜV certificate with some useful data:
http://www.dvsegmbh.info/PDF/einbau/12013/171/E4-WM4-Y656A00.PDF
http://web1.carparts-cat.com/default.aspx?58=1&38=68408101&36=1185&14=1&32=18387&10=A6E9B521E96148F0A9201DFD4BBC0C6F018001&12=140
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176441
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Wow, double the price of the B16/Pss10 and seriously more than KW clubsport. I'd love to see a track test against one of the other 2 :)
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Yup, me too!
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The retail of the normal PSS10 is 1500 quid. I think the Clubsport is around 500 quid more.
I will find out next week.
Going to be miles better than the KW offerings. Better company to deal with too.
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PSS10 :drool:
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PSS10 :drool:
Nah, ASTs. I've got the Golf R again and they are amazing
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Indeed, alas I fail to see when they will be in my budget :sad1:
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KW also sell a more refined version of it's Clubsport for the Mk.V platform now, the "Clubsport 3-way"
with separately adjustable low and high speed bump. This one is similarly priced to the Bilstein. :driver:
On a side note: Contrary to the marketing text rear dampers are't "upside down" as you can clearly see
on the pictures above. Both Bistein B16 PSS10 and Sachs Performance do come with true upside down
dampers all round. This is just a negligible detail though.
ASTs are fine, too. At least in Germany ASTs are hard to legalize cos they lack of any TÜV approval. :ashamed:
Nonetheless I strongly believe KW will still sell many more "Clubsport" suspensions in the near future
than Bilstein as KW sell a huge variety for all kind of cars and at reasonable prices. But, to be honest at
a similar price personally I'd prefer this Bilstein.
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PSS10 Clubsport retails at £1978 plus vat. I get bugger all off TBH.
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How much is the VAT or do you know the full price in EURO?
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You know the funny thing is alot of the people that go this route and strip the cars right down to save weight when you see them or a photo of them it often makes me PMSL.
Because they never look at themselfs and think, hey i could do with loosing quite a few KG myself that may help :grin:
Haha, this is very accurate. I got up to a fat b@stard 17 stone last year... I'm 14 stone now (~20KG less) - probably a couple of grand worth of weight saving mods. :laugh:
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Im only 75 Kilos so might treat myself to a carbon tailgate this christmas :innocent:
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Has anyone considered that removing loads of weight means the springs on their suspension will no longer be correct for the new lighter axle weights?
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PSS10 Clubsport retails at £1978 plus vat. I get bugger all off TBH.
:sick: :sick: Thats ALOT. Whats the AST equivalent of the Clubsports? Do you know which AST kit is on the APR Golf?
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Has anyone considered that removing loads of weight means the springs on their suspension will no longer be correct for the new lighter axle weights?
Why?
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Has anyone considered that removing loads of weight means the springs on their suspension will no longer be correct for the new lighter axle weights?
....I haven't but I think it's a very valid and interesting point (and typical of Sy :grin:).
At what point does losing weight begin to effect suspension spring loadings?
Is one solution to have the car corner-weighted again?
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Because the spring rates are designed from the front/rear axle weights, so if you drop 100+kg from the car for instance and are in the market for the best suspension setup for £1xxx+ surely having a set of springs bespoke to your individual car makes sense, why pend all that money for something which isnt optimized for your car?
Edit
This is why the Octavia vRS, despite having an IDENTICAL under pinning, uses a different coilover kit to the Golf GTI. its dwn to the weight of the car.
An analogy for you:
Driving a lorry that is unloaded is ALOT more uncomfortable than when it is fully loaded because the springs havent got the weight applied o them to make them work efficiently.
This is the same as say a Golf GTI with an uprated suspension kit. Remove 100kg and the springs are then over rated, thus the ride gets worse and handling "potentially" worse, or at least limiting the potential improvement of the weight loss.
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EBecause the spting rates are dedigned from the front/rear axle weights do if you drop 100+kg from the car for instance and sre in the market for the best suspension setup for £1xxx+ surely having a set of springs bedpoke to your individual car makes sense
....Indeed, when VWR took advantage of their technical partnership with KW Germany, they ordered springs to suit my individual car.
Some folks have poo-poo'd VWR as just re-badging products and adding a fat profit margin but that hasn't been my experience of them.
I presume that spring ratings are defined by a range rather than a fixed weight value or force.
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I presume that spring ratings are defined by a range rather than a fixed weight value or force.
But as ive edited above, the vRS/GTI despite identical underpinnings use different aftermarket suspension kits. The only differing point will be the extra weight that the Octavia is burdened with.
if it was fine to ignore the 100kg weight difference wouldnt they, the suspension companies, have just sold it under the same kit rather than a revised one which will of course cost extra for the company to develop and package etc
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I presume that spring ratings are defined by a range rather than a fixed weight value or force.
But as ive edited above, the vRS/GTI despite identical underpinnings use different aftermarket suspension kits. The only differing point will be the extra weight that the Octavia is burdened with.
if it was fine to ignore the 100kg weight difference wouldnt they, the suspension companies, have just sold it under the same kit rather than a revised one which will of course cost extra for the company to develop and package etc
....I'm not challenging your knowledge on this but am genuinely interested where the weight thresholds are.
So, in context, at what weight-reduction point does us reducing the weight of our car then require changing our springs according to their rating?
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I presume that spring ratings are defined by a range rather than a fixed weight value or force.
But as ive edited above, the vRS/GTI despite identical underpinnings use different aftermarket suspension kits. The only differing point will be the extra weight that the Octavia is burdened with.
if it was fine to ignore the 100kg weight difference wouldnt they, the suspension companies, have just sold it under the same kit rather than a revised one which will of course cost extra for the company to develop and package etc
....I'm not challenging your knowledge on this but am genuinely interested where the weight thresholds are.
So, in context, at what weight-reduction point does us reducing the weight of our car then require changing our springs according to their rating?
Looking at the Octavia vRS there are 2 separate kits for the KW V2 stainless steel kits. One kit has front axle: 1035kg, rear axle: 1150kg, the other kit is front axle: 1036-1105kg, rear axle: 1150kg.That will be the Petrol and diesel variants of the vRS. Theres also the non vRS Octavia, still utilizing the same 55mm strut diameter that has the ratings of front axle: 1106-1160kg, rear axle 1150kg. All have different part numbers.
It looks like 60-70kg increments, although that is only what KW have broken it down to.
So if your running lighter brakes, cntrol arms, hubs, bonnet, battery etc over the front axle you are in that region i guess your in that region. I know on my fabia removing the rear seat benches, spare tyre/tool kit etc equates to 49kg. Thats nearly in that region as well.
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Because the spring rates are designed from the front/rear axle weights, so if you drop 100+kg from the car for instance and are in the market for the best suspension setup for £1xxx+ surely having a set of springs bespoke to your individual car makes sense, why pend all that money for something which isnt optimized for your car?
Edit
This is why the Octavia vRS, despite having an IDENTICAL under pinning, uses a different coilover kit to the Golf GTI. its dwn to the weight of the car.
An analogy for you:
Driving a lorry that is unloaded is ALOT more uncomfortable than when it is fully loaded because the springs havent got the weight applied o them to make them work efficiently.
This is the same as say a Golf GTI with an uprated suspension kit. Remove 100kg and the springs are then over rated, thus the ride gets worse and handling "potentially" worse, or at least limiting the potential improvement of the weight loss.
When the springs are matched PERFECTLY from a view of handling you would be right.
In real world they are not.
At least with a coilover you'll screw it down after removing weight. At the same time you
increase negative wheel travel (rebound). So you'll have the same travel as before.
Yes, the spring rate to weight ratio changes. It'll become stiffer overall. If you search for
better performance (which someone removing weight surely will) you are happy with that
(very slight) stiffening. Remember removing 100 kg from a 1.4 to vehicle is just 7.X % !!
So for our purpose (fast road & occasional track use) this point isn't critical at all. In fact
it helps more than it does any harm.
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I completely agree, but if people are talking of spending £1500+ on the "ultimate" coilover kit, which is pretty expensive, then IMO you might as well try and tailor your spring rates to match the exact car.
I like doing trackdays, but ultimately unless the car was going to be a track only weapon, id be happier in the sub £1k market where i guess matching the spring rates exactly wont matter as much.
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Yes, but even these "ultimate" Clubsport coilovers usually come with spring rates
of say 70 N/mm to 100 N/mm. If you increase this by 7.X % it's still negligible. :wink:
True racing suspensions for a car of the weight of a GTI start at 200 N/mm and above.
I know a guy running 160 N/mm both on street and when autocrossing.
:drinking:
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The retail of the normal PSS10 is 1500 quid. I think the Clubsport is around 500 quid more.
I will find out next week.
Going to be miles better than the KW offerings. Better company to deal with too.
You have seen the light Alex, and are moving away from the darkside :wink: :innocent:
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Sy, Bilstein use the same kits for the mk5 and the vRS. KW don't though.
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As far as I remember (when looking at B16 codes), Bilstein has the same suspension for GTI, vRS and my 1.4 TSI also...
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Sy, Bilstein use the same kits for the mk5 and the vRS. KW don't though.
So Bilstein have gone for a one size fits all. Cheaper to develop that way i guess.
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- Forge twintercooler > 5.2kg for the core and about 1kg for each of the 2 hoses (7.2kg all together)
- THS > 11.9kg for the core and about 0.5kg for each of the 2 hoses (12.9kg all together)
- S3 FMIC > 7.6kg (S3+Forge = 14.8kg)
- Hot climate radiator + plastic guide > 1.1kg (about 2 to 2.5kg with all the extra hoses needed for the install)
- Air-con compressor + hose > 6.3kg
- Air-con radiator > 3.1kg
- Other air-con hoses + fluids > aprox. 3kg
All in all you lose about 12.5kg by letting go the air-con system and you also gain better cooling for the main water radiator and the intercooler
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- Forge twintercooler > 5.2kg for the core and about 1kg for each of the 2 hoses (7.2kg all together)
- THS > 11.9kg for the core and about 0.5kg for each of the 2 hoses (12.9kg all together)
- S3 FMIC > 7.6kg (S3+Forge = 14.8kg)
- Hot climate radiator + plastic guide > 1.1kg (about 2 to 2.5kg with all the extra hoses needed for the install)
- Air-con compressor + hose > 6.3kg
- Air-con radiator > 3.1kg
- Other air-con hoses + fluids > aprox. 3kg
All in all you lose about 12.5kg by letting go the air-con system and you also gain better cooling for the main water radiator and the intercooler
Remember that the Forge TC is an add on... where as the THS replaces with OEM cooler. So the weight is a bit missleading
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Don't quite understand what's missleading...I compared S3+Forge to the THS and there's a 2kg difference. I also gave the weight for each of them in case someone wants to combine them anyway he wants !
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Ok... maybe misleading was the wrong term.
You know what im getting at tho... the ths means you gain ~2kg where as the TC is 7.2 kg. The individual weight suggests that the forge would be better for weight.
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Yes, of course but what good if you can't use it alone ? You have to add the gti or s3 !