MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: jacobrownoly on September 28, 2015, 07:17:00 pm
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Hey guys had a dyno done today on my mk5 gti stage 2 +. Really disappointed and A little confused :stupid: on the graph it states 293bhp but I was told to ignore that and look at the one that states 236bhp. Now for revo stage 2+ that is really low.
The car is not that slow. This car is quicker/feels than a BMW z4 260bhp (and it's lighter) it also can easily keep up with a mapped s3. So have I been told wrong. It' Definitely feels more like 290bhp.
The guy that dyno ed the car was completely against revo and said there numbers are always way off. Think he was trying to sell me his tune too.
What do you guys think from the graph.
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corrected power is a calc derived on the rediculous IAT shown. What settings? 236hp is rather low
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corrected power is a calc derived on the rediculous IAT shown. What settings? 236hp is rather low
Settings are B9 T4 F6
Why would that number not be on the graph?
What is the 293bhp figure??
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Power at the wheels is low, is the car in good health? Plugs, dv etc....
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Power at the wheels is low, is the car in good health? Plugs, dv etc....
Car was logged last week and everything seemed ok. DV seems to hold boost fine. Peeks at 21psi. No faults shown up either.
Really confused, no way this car is 236bhp!
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Rolling roads are a lottery. Any others close by that you can go to for a comparison?
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Rolling roads are a lottery. Any others close by that you can go to for a comparison?
I have been told before that they are a lottery but the guy said his was just re-calibrated and that it was extremely accurate. Plus don't really wanna spend another £50 each time to dyno. Spend enough on the car. Just disappointed :(
As I said I have driven my mate mapped stage 1 s3 and yes it was a little quicker but it was very similar.
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Bump. Anyone else shed some light on this
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What fuel were you running?
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There's no way it's 293hp, but 236hp at the fly, or 180odd at the wheels does seem low, i'm sure mine last Dyno'd at around 220-230whp on fairly mild Revo settings, but mine peaks higher than 21psi on B9. Have you had the Dv checked or replaced with a new Rev G?
The 293hp is on there due to the standard correction used, based on the IAT measuring 70+ degrees C which yours will NOT be reading. Seriously - totally discount the 293hp figure as it is theoretical and useless. Also bear in mind Revo quote anywhere from as low as 247hp for Stage 2+, depending on the car and settings used etc.
A mapped Stage 1 S3 should be knocking on the door of 300hp but is heavier, so perhaps you are running around the 270hp mark i would expect and the dyno is just off. Only way to know is to take it somewhere that is known to produce half tidy/accurate figures.
Have you got the logs to hand? Can't remember if i've looked at them. What intake do you have and what MAF readings? How well is boost holding etc. What mods do you have in general?
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There's no way it's 293hp, but 236hp at the fly, or 180odd at the wheels does seem low, i'm sure mine last Dyno'd at around 220-230whp on fairly mild Revo settings, but mine peaks higher than 21psi on B9. Have you had the Dv checked or replaced with a new Rev G?
The 293hp is on there due to the standard correction used, based on the IAT measuring 70+ degrees C which yours will NOT be reading. Seriously - totally discount the 293hp figure as it is theoretical and useless. Also bear in mind Revo quote anywhere from as low as 247hp for Stage 2+, depending on the car and settings used etc.
A mapped Stage 1 S3 should be knocking on the door of 300hp but is heavier, so perhaps you are running around the 270hp mark i would expect and the dyno is just off. Only way to know is to take it somewhere that is known to produce half tidy/accurate figures.
Have you got the logs to hand? Can't remember if i've looked at them. What intake do you have and what MAF readings? How well is boost holding etc. What mods do you have in general?
I believe the car was suffering from a lot of heat soak (this has to be it!) There is no way this car is 236bhp. The guy said his dyno was spot on too and that he sees this all the time with Revo! The car had been driven for 1 hour to get to the place and yesterday was a warm day too. He then done a WOT test run on the dyno before it made 236bhp. The second run it made 229 bhp (-7 bhp) (so its seems clear heat soak is a big issue with my car)
He said an intercooler would make a big difference (10-12bhp) and to replace the stock cat back of my exhaust to free up a few more bhp (2-5 bhp)
I know the car is not 293bhp but its deffo feels around the 270 mark.
In terms of logging, I logged and scanned the car with VAGCOM last week and everything seemed good on B9 T4 F6. Boost held well and there was no timing pull. The car feels great tbh. My intake air mass was reading a max of 200g/s.
Just really disappointed :(
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if you have issues with heat, then what you make on the dyno may not be indicative of what it actually does out on the road with decent airflow.
Hoping for even 270hp without a FMIC and a decent exhaust system is ambitious. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that 236hp was fairly accurate if it was getting that hot, with no FMIC or exhaustetc. May even have made more power with a lower boost level, as less boost means less heat.
Even then i still seriously doubt your IAT was in the 70's, but again was this verified with the cars IAT sensor? What does the IAT read out on the road? Did the dynocell have adequate fans/airflow?
If there was no timing pull then either the car wasn't that hot, or IAT protection kicked in meaning the timing request is lowered and in turn you won't make good power, but wont show as CF through VCDS.
What brand of intake? MAF reading alone is fairly useless as all aftermarket intakes read differently, some over read, some under read etc.
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Im far from an expert on dynos, but why on earth is he running it with a reading of 77deg IAT!?
Was there a fan running infront of the car? Any cool air directed to intake?
Either its a false reading or the IATs were extremely high for some reason. At around 50deg the engine will start countering for the overly high temps and you clearly wont make the power!
For IAT comparison, I had a dyno pull the other day on the same kind of dyno (MAHA) and the IAT readings maxed at 46degrees, running higher boost but with a Airtek intercooler. You can see how close my engine and corrected readings are.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F09%2F29%2F635f963d5ec91b4a07952796673f2a37.jpg&hash=063847f38a88628006ed66dc16b7f84685d26baf)
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Also, your G/S max calculation would make it a guesstimate of 250hp.
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Exactly my point Gaz, the figure should be the ambient temp in order to get an accurate corrected power.
G/S calculation on aftermarket intakes or cars that have been mapped is not definitive and not as accurate as it is on a standard car
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OK so I sent my dyno over to my dealer who set up the car to stage 2+ and he said he is going to look into why my temps are so high. He saids you lose a lot of power after 50c never mind 77c!!
Why would the car be running so hot? Is it clearly an intercooler problem? Or something else? I have VAGCOM, what blocks should I look to log to see if the car is ok?
As stated before the car was ran quite hard before this 236 was made. So its clearly heat that is the problem.
Thanks
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Measure the block which has the Intake Air Temperature after some hard driving and full throttle runs and see how high it gets. Try some hard accelerations at low speed repeatedly to get the temps up as high as possible and see if you can replicate anything even close to 77 degrees c
As they said, upwards of 50 degrees is a big no-no but it should not be getting that high unless the dynocell had inadequate airflow, and even if it did, it won't be that high and will make more power on the road
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Mine came with various rolling road printouts at each stage of tune and latest is apparently stage 2+
Latest graph showed 267bhp and 366lb/ft - measured at fly - I would have thought it should be more with the state of tune and mods but I'm new VW so not 100% sure.
As with anything though different measuring equipment and circumstances can seriously alter readings :confused:
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Measure the block which has the Intake Air Temperature after some hard driving and full throttle runs and see how high it gets. Try some hard accelerations at low speed repeatedly to get the temps up as high as possible and see if you can replicate anything even close to 77 degrees c
As they said, upwards of 50 degrees is a big no-no but it should not be getting that high unless the dynocell had inadequate airflow, and even if it did, it won't be that high and will make more power on the road
When I logged the car last week my intake temps where actually 77c on the logs! With no timing pull on T4.
Is my intercooler goosed :scared:
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When mine was on the RR for a power run, they measured the IAT with VCDS logs. What is the IAT reading on the dyno actually for if they dont use it to read actual IAT?
Id say 270bhp is probably what to expect at stage 2+ on K03. Thats pretty good torque too, didnt think you could do that torque with K03!
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Measure the block which has the Intake Air Temperature after some hard driving and full throttle runs and see how high it gets. Try some hard accelerations at low speed repeatedly to get the temps up as high as possible and see if you can replicate anything even close to 77 degrees c
As they said, upwards of 50 degrees is a big no-no but it should not be getting that high unless the dynocell had inadequate airflow, and even if it did, it won't be that high and will make more power on the road
When I logged the car last week my intake temps where actually 77c on the logs! With no timing pull on T4.
Is my intercooler goosed :scared:
Seems odd, measure it from start up and see if its reading correctly and check when it gets overly hot etc..
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Ah so about right then, from the mods it has and the printout.
I to thought the torque was quite high but then it has been converted to SMFW and stage 3 clutch to cope with it I guess
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Your GTI measured less WHP than my Ed. 30 with stock map and some upgrades.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FShoduchi%2FOficina_Mario%2FBanco20de20potecircncia2001.jpg&hash=78424dc89b33903b250dadeab9dfe0c4f5f8c33f)
I'd guess that the 236 BHP would be the real figure to look at.
Get a better IC, even a cheap Chinese generic IC from ebay is bigger than the S3 IC and will improve a lot your intake temps. :happy2:
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Your GTI measured less WHP than my Ed. 30 with stock map and some upgrades.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FShoduchi%2FOficina_Mario%2FBanco20de20potecircncia2001.jpg&hash=78424dc89b33903b250dadeab9dfe0c4f5f8c33f)
I'd guess that the 236 BHP would be the real figure to look at.
Get a better IC, even a cheap Chinese generic IC from ebay is bigger than the S3 IC and will improve a lot your intake temps. :happy2:
Yeah, am pretty sure if my was at 19C and not 77C mine would be miles quicker.
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Your GTI measured less WHP than my Ed. 30 with stock map and some upgrades.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FShoduchi%2FOficina_Mario%2FBanco20de20potecircncia2001.jpg&hash=78424dc89b33903b250dadeab9dfe0c4f5f8c33f)
I'd guess that the 236 BHP would be the real figure to look at.
Get a better IC, even a cheap Chinese generic IC from ebay is bigger than the S3 IC and will improve a lot your intake temps. :happy2:
Yeah, am pretty sure if my was at 19C and not 77C mine would be miles quicker.
My mechanic told me that the intake temp was more like 40ºC after he cooled the IC by spraying it with water. I have a PolarFIS Adv. fitted so he knew the exact temp the intake sensor measured. That intake temp value was input by the guy doing the dyno test as an estimated value and wasn't based on the intake temp sensor readings. As you can see there was almost no correction in the engine output based on those temperatures.
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Check sensor reading after the car has stood overnight but before starting it, should read ambient and the same as the coolant temp sensor etc.
If your IAT is a true 77 degrees C then you have major cooling issues which you need to resolve. The timing pull (or lack of) is irrelevant as the ECU requests less timing to compensate for the hot temps, so you won't get any CF's. Sounds like you have a lack of airflow to your intercooler.... Get an upgrade (alloy S3 will be fine) and check the condition of the A/C condenser as if the fins on this are damaged it will severely impair flow through the intercooler. Get a new one and fit at the same time would be a good idea.
DIN70020 is correction based on a standard temp of 20 degrees C, and 1.01 bar atmospheric pressure, so the closer you are to this, the less correction you will get
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77 degrees. Sheeesh!!
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The answer lies in here.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3928.0.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3928.0.html)
:happy2:
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Somewhere within the 29 pages that i have no intention of reading through? :laugh: :grin:
The issue with figures is correcting by IAT measured through OBD, so you're correcting for sky high intake temps.... Means having a decent intercooler is pointless on these dynos....
IAT correction should be the ambient temp in the room/dyno cell, not the measured IAT by the car
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Somewhere within the 29 pages that i have no intention of reading through? :laugh: :grin:
The issue with figures is correcting by IAT measured through OBD, so you're correcting for sky high intake temps.... Means having a decent intercooler is pointless on these dynos....
IAT correction should be the ambient temp in the room/dyno cell, not the measured IAT by the car
You read enough. :happy2: