MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: illeon on January 24, 2016, 12:54:22 pm
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Hi,
I ready with great interest RedRobin's reviews of the Unibrace XB & UB (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,48722.0.html), the VWR engine mounts (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5082.0) and the SuperPro Polyurethane Bushes (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,53579.0.html) reviews.
I'm contemplating my next suspension mod to be either the Unibrace UB, the VWR engine mounts or the SuperPro rear bushes and I'm wondering, which item will provide the greatest improvement in handling, assuming cost is not a parameter?
Ideally, I would have PMed RedRobin himself with this question, but as a new member I yet to reach a minimal number of posts first.
Thanks in advance!
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Hi,
I ready with great interest RedRobin's reviews of the Unibrace XB & UB (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,48722.0.html), the VWR engine mounts (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5082.0) and the SuperPro Polyurethane Bushes (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,53579.0.html) reviews.
I'm contemplating my next suspension mod to be either the Unibrace UB, the VWR engine mounts or the SuperPro rear bushes and I'm wondering, which item will provide the greatest improvement in handling, assuming cost is not a parameter?
Ideally, I would have PMed RedRobin himself with this question, but as a new member I yet to reach a minimal number of posts first.
Thanks in advance!
My thoughts....
Bracing - not required in the MK5.
VWR dogbone mount (it's actually a Vibratechnics part) - It *does* increase noise and vibration. You need to do all 3 to keep that motor pinned, but the noise and vibes are horrendous if you do so, even with fast road spec rubber.
Polybushes - Yep, the anti-lift kit is worth doing. Leave the rest of the chassis bushed with rubber, refresh with new OEM parts if necessary as fresh rubber is better than 10 year old rubber.
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My short personal experience with my modded Ed. 30 tells me the same Pudding said, although I fitted both dogbone Vibratechnics bushes and I really don't have any complaint about noise or vibrations. My mechanic torqued all bolts that were loose in the cabin and chassis (ended up putting some heat resistant foam between the fuel lines too).
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OP... what is your current car setup? What mods?
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Hey Pudding and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts!
First and foremost, I should have mentioned I'm driving a MK2 Leon Cupra R. The current suspension modes I installed are Powerflex black series anti-lift kit, Hotchkis rear anti-roll bar and Wavetrac LSD.
Bracing - not required in the MK5.
Are you referring to strut bracing or Unibrace? To my understanding, RedRobin's review was very favorable to installing the XB & UB. However, for the LCR, there's only UB.
VWR dogbone mount (it's actually a Vibratechnics part) - It *does* increase noise and vibration. You need to do all 3 to keep that motor pinned, but the noise and vibes are horrendous if you do so, even with fast road spec rubber.
Indeed, that's my understanding as well. And since my car is first and foremost a daily driver, with the occasional tracking, I want to keep it comfortable enough so my kids don't complain when I drop them off to school :smiley:
Polybushes - Yep, the anti-lift kit is worth doing.
I have the Powerflex black-series anti-lift kit installed.
Leave the rest of the chassis bushed with rubber, refresh with new OEM parts if necessary as fresh rubber is better than 10 year old rubber.
Interesting. So in your opinion poly bushes won't make much of change, compared to relatively new fresh and OEM rubber bushes?
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OP... what is your current car setup? What mods?
MK2 Leon Cupra R, APR Stage 2+. Suspension mods: rear Hotchkis sway bar, Wavetrac diff, Powerflex black series anti-lift kit and Powerflex black series front bushings set.
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I was thinking about getting the vibra technics dogbone mount. Most reviews seem to state that there is no extra noise/vibration.
Mine is also the daily drive used on the school run.
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OP... what is your current car setup? What mods?
MK2 Leon Cupra R, APR Stage 2+. Suspension mods: rear Hotchkis sway bar, Wavetrac diff, Powerflex black series anti-lift kit and Powerflex black series front bushings set.
Stock suspension? Dampers/Springs?
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Yes, stock dampers & springs. I have no intention of replacing them as long they are working fine.
Once they will start to leak (whenever that'll happen), I'll probably go for KW or Ohlins, if they have something for LCRs.
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I was thinking about getting the vibra technics dogbone mount. Most reviews seem to state that there is no extra noise/vibration.
Mine is also the daily drive used on the school run.
I used the Powerflex black series lower engine mount insert, which made the car vibrate so much, that my kids complained of stomach ache.
I don't know if the Vibratechnics mount is any different than the what they manufacture for VWR, but the VWR branded mount does introduce some increase in NVH, according to reviews.
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You can also read @MC71 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4913) review in his project about the Vibratechnics dogbone mount bushings. I followed his recommendation and I'm pleased with the outcome. :smiley:
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I have a bit of engine movement which i think is causing something to touch the chassis when in drive/reverse. It may be the exhaust, but every time i jack the car up there seems to be good clearance.
How about refreshing with a new oem mount? She is 11 this year.
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I have a bit of engine movement which i think is causing something to touch the chassis when in drive/reverse. It may be the exhaust, but every time i jack the car up there seems to be good clearance.
How about refreshing with a new oem mount? She is 11 this year.
It won't hurt to do it, I think. A stock GTI shouldn't really take advantage of these more expensive bits. :confused:
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It won't hurt to do it, I think. A stock GTI shouldn't really take advantage of these more expensive bits. :confused:
If it gets rid of the rattle i don't mind. Just thinking that the vibra mount may be easier to get into the subframe as i don't have a press.
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It won't hurt to do it, I think. A stock GTI shouldn't really take advantage of these more expensive bits. :confused:
If it gets rid of the rattle i don't mind. Just thinking that the vibra mount may be easier to get into the subframe as i don't have a press.
Nope, it's not easy to fit IIRC what my mechanic told me when he fitted it. He used a press.
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You can also read @MC71 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4913) review in his project about the Vibratechnics dogbone mount bushings. I followed his recommendation and I'm pleased with the outcome. :smiley:
Thanks for the pointer. However, I'm afraid that for LCR, Vibra-technics only have the engine mount (http://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/seat/len_mk2/463/VAG520M/bottom_engine_mount_subframe_mount_20r32)
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Yes, stock dampers & springs. I have no intention of replacing them as long they are working fine.
Once they will start to leak (whenever that'll happen), I'll probably go for KW or Ohlins, if they have something for LCRs.
I wouldnt bother with polybushing then to be perfectly honest. Id save the money you would spend on PBs and buy some decent coilovers.
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You can also read @MC71 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4913) review in his project about the Vibratechnics dogbone mount bushings. I followed his recommendation and I'm pleased with the outcome. :smiley:
Thanks for the pointer. However, I'm afraid that for LCR, Vibra-technics only have the engine mount (http://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/seat/len_mk2/463/VAG520M/bottom_engine_mount_subframe_mount_20r32)
Weird. Your dogbone is different from ours so you can't fit the smaller bush? The bigger is the most important, really.
http://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/vw/golf_jetta_bora_vento_mkvvi/666/VAG455B/torque_link_dogbone_bush_small_end (http://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/vw/golf_jetta_bora_vento_mkvvi/666/VAG455B/torque_link_dogbone_bush_small_end)
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I wouldnt bother with polybushing then to be perfectly honest. Id save the money you would spend on PBs and buy some decent coilovers.
Sounds reasonable. Would you say the same regarding vibratechnics subframe mount (http://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/seat/len_mk2/463/VAG520M/bottom_engine_mount_subframe_mount_20r32) or Unibrace's UB (http://unibrace.com/product/series-ub/ub/)?
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I would only do the subframe mount if you are doing all the mounts.
The Unibrace? Meh... I am not convinced that they are stiff enough to make a difference.
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Weird. Your dogbone is different from ours so you can't fit the smaller bush? The bigger is the most important, really.
http://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/vw/golf_jetta_bora_vento_mkvvi/666/VAG455B/torque_link_dogbone_bush_small_end (http://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/vw/golf_jetta_bora_vento_mkvvi/666/VAG455B/torque_link_dogbone_bush_small_end)
As you mentioned, the bigger mount is the important one. I'm just trying to figure if this mod will provide a larger improvement in handling, than Unibrace's UB. :smiley:
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Weird. Your dogbone is different from ours so you can't fit the smaller bush? The bigger is the most important, really.
http://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/vw/golf_jetta_bora_vento_mkvvi/666/VAG455B/torque_link_dogbone_bush_small_end (http://www.vibra-technics.co.uk/vw/golf_jetta_bora_vento_mkvvi/666/VAG455B/torque_link_dogbone_bush_small_end)
As you mentioned, the bigger mount is the important one. I'm just trying to figure if this mod will provide a larger improvement in handling, than Unibrace's UB. :smiley:
The engine will be much more "strapped" so it can't bounce the wheels as much and you'll have better traction. Well, that's the way I see it atm.
The Unibrace will prevent the chassis from twisting. I don't think the chassis is that bad, it can be improved but I'd rank it 2nd to the torque bush.
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It seems the consensus is that between Unibrace and vibra-technics' mount, I should go with the latter.
It also seems that the vibra-technics mount doesn't badly impact the car's NVH, which is a crucial factor for me. If anyone feels otherwise regarding the NVH, speak now or forever hold your peace :wink:
Thank you everyone for being so helpful and friendly! I really appreciate it.
On a different note, and for sake of not opening a new thread, can anyone recommend good drifting courses around London?
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Hey Pudding and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts!
First and foremost, I should have mentioned I'm driving a MK2 Leon Cupra R. The current suspension modes I installed are Powerflex black series anti-lift kit, Hotchkis rear anti-roll bar and Wavetrac LSD.
Bracing - not required in the MK5.
Are you referring to strut bracing or Unibrace? To my understanding, RedRobin's review was very favorable to installing the XB & UB. However, for the LCR, there's only UB.
VWR dogbone mount (it's actually a Vibratechnics part) - It *does* increase noise and vibration. You need to do all 3 to keep that motor pinned, but the noise and vibes are horrendous if you do so, even with fast road spec rubber.
Indeed, that's my understanding as well. And since my car is first and foremost a daily driver, with the occasional tracking, I want to keep it comfortable enough so my kids don't complain when I drop them off to school :smiley:
Polybushes - Yep, the anti-lift kit is worth doing.
I have the Powerflex black-series anti-lift kit installed.
Leave the rest of the chassis bushed with rubber, refresh with new OEM parts if necessary as fresh rubber is better than 10 year old rubber.
Interesting. So in your opinion poly bushes won't make much of change, compared to relatively new fresh and OEM rubber bushes?
No worries, just my experiences, not facts :smiley:
Strut bracing. Bear with me......
I tried the Unibrace stuff in my MK4 R32 and it made a moderate difference. It wasn't like "Wow, that was £150 well spent"!
Now, the MK5 is apparently 120% more rigid than the MK4. Normally a successor is around 40% more rigid than it's predecessor, so 120% is a huuuuge difference. I can also just 'feel' the car would not offer huge gains by bracing it. One tell-tale sign of body shell rigidity, on a 3 door especially, is when you jack up one front corner, can you open and close the door smoothly on the jacked side? On the MK5, yes you can. On the MK4, no you can't! That is major chassis flex!!
By all means, try a rear brace first and see what you think. If it feels like you've gone up a size in rear arb, then the car is benefitting from it. If you can barely notice anything, the car is rigid enough! Having said that, I don't know how rigid the Leon is compared to a Golf.
Dogbone mount - I'm fortunate enough to be able to compare a bone stock GTI to my Edition 30 and I can 100% promise you the uprated part transmits noise and vibes into the cabin. Not massively so, but you do notice it, especially in the daily traffic grind. I am very picky though, so may notice it more than others do. It does remove a bit of slop, but nothing like as much as doing all 3 mounts does.
Polybushes - Hmmmm, not my cup of tea personally. Maybe the softest grade of poly might suit some people but every time I've used them in the past, I think great at first, and then I hit an unfamiliar road and there's some noise and vibrations I wasn't expecting. I've always found refreshed OEM rubber to offer the best compromise.
I should add all of this is based on a road car. Track weapons would benefit more from these kind of mods but when using the car in both scenarios, there is always a compromise to be made somewhere. Some folk are happy to compromise, I'm less so :)
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I tried the Unibrace stuff in my MK4 R32 and it made a moderate difference. It wasn't like "Wow, that was £150 well spent"!
Interesting. And usually people feel the XB the most, but that part doesn't exist for the Leon, so we're basically talking about the UB and RB at most, which are even less impactful.
By all means, try a rear brace first and see what you think. If it feels like you've gone up a size in rear arb, then the car is benefitting from it. If you can barely notice anything, the car is rigid enough! Having said that, I don't know how rigid the Leon is compared to a Golf.
I actually have my rear arb currently set to its softest setting, which in itself is about 90% stiffer than the original, and I find it quite lovely. I always prefer to go to the softest setting that provides what I'm looking for.
Dogbone mount - I'm fortunate enough to be able to compare a bone stock GTI to my Edition 30 and I can 100% promise you the uprated part transmits noise and vibes into the cabin. Not massively so, but you do notice it, especially in the daily traffic grind. I am very picky though, so may notice it more than others do. It does remove a bit of slop, but nothing like as much as doing all 3 mounts does.
I'm not sure what does "Edition 30" mean, sorry. Are you referring your feedback about noises & vibrations to the vibra-technics mount or another product?
My car is mostly a daily drive, which is why I will definitely not install all 3 mounts. Based on previous posts on this thraed, it seemed that the vibra-technics were a good compromise between not increasing NVH, while tightening up the engine.
Polybushes - Hmmmm, not my cup of tea personally. Maybe the softest grade of poly might suit some people but every time I've used them in the past, I think great at first, and then I hit an unfamiliar road and there's some noise and vibrations I wasn't expecting. I've always found refreshed OEM rubber to offer the best compromise.
That makes perfect sense :smiley:
I should add all of this is based on a road car. Track weapons would benefit more from these kind of mods but when using the car in both scenarios, there is always a compromise to be made somewhere. Some folk are happy to compromise, I'm less so :)
Yep, I'm much like you in this. But like I said, it seems that the VT mount manages to avoid this compromise, no?
Thanks again for your elaborate post!
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Drifting course??? In a FWD golf?
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I never said I'll do it in my own car :wink:
I just asked what would be a recommended drifting course near London :smiley:
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I tried the Unibrace stuff in my MK4 R32 and it made a moderate difference. It wasn't like "Wow, that was £150 well spent"!
Interesting. And usually people feel the XB the most, but that part doesn't exist for the Leon, so we're basically talking about the UB and RB at most, which are even less impactful.
By all means, try a rear brace first and see what you think. If it feels like you've gone up a size in rear arb, then the car is benefitting from it. If you can barely notice anything, the car is rigid enough! Having said that, I don't know how rigid the Leon is compared to a Golf.
I actually have my rear arb currently set to its softest setting, which in itself is about 90% stiffer than the original, and I find it quite lovely. I always prefer to go to the softest setting that provides what I'm looking for.
Dogbone mount - I'm fortunate enough to be able to compare a bone stock GTI to my Edition 30 and I can 100% promise you the uprated part transmits noise and vibes into the cabin. Not massively so, but you do notice it, especially in the daily traffic grind. I am very picky though, so may notice it more than others do. It does remove a bit of slop, but nothing like as much as doing all 3 mounts does.
I'm not sure what does "Edition 30" mean, sorry. Are you referring your feedback about noises & vibrations to the vibra-technics mount or another product?
My car is mostly a daily drive, which is why I will definitely not install all 3 mounts. Based on previous posts on this thraed, it seemed that the vibra-technics were a good compromise between not increasing NVH, while tightening up the engine.
Polybushes - Hmmmm, not my cup of tea personally. Maybe the softest grade of poly might suit some people but every time I've used them in the past, I think great at first, and then I hit an unfamiliar road and there's some noise and vibrations I wasn't expecting. I've always found refreshed OEM rubber to offer the best compromise.
That makes perfect sense :smiley:
I should add all of this is based on a road car. Track weapons would benefit more from these kind of mods but when using the car in both scenarios, there is always a compromise to be made somewhere. Some folk are happy to compromise, I'm less so :)
Yep, I'm much like you in this. But like I said, it seems that the VT mount manages to avoid this compromise, no?
Thanks again for your elaborate post!
Edition 30 is a GTI with the K04 engine and half leather seats, and some fancy wheels, otherwise it's the same as the GTI. My comparison was a standard GTI vs mine, so it was essentially a test of the Vibratechnics mount vs standard. The dogbone on it's own is a good compromise. A slight increase in transmission whine a very small amount of extra vibration, but perfectly acceptable for every day use.
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Edition 30 is a GTI with the K04 engine and half leather seats, and some fancy wheels, otherwise it's the same as the GTI. My comparison was a standard GTI vs mine, so it was essentially a test of the Vibratechnics mount vs standard. The dogbone on it's own is a good compromise. A slight increase in transmission whine a very small amount of extra vibration, but perfectly acceptable for every day use.
AFAIK the Edition 30 has the same engine as the S3, the CDL, but with a different intake camshaft (5 mm stroke vs 5,4 mm stroke) and a different IC. So it has better con rods, injectors and pistons than a normal GTI. :wink:
That's why you can make so much power and torque with just a stage 2+ and you don't have to swap internal bits. :evilgrin:
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It's my belief that it may be best to install all 3 mounts at the same time so as to ensure a balanced restraint across the whole engine and transmission assembly at all of the connection points. It may be possible to increase the loading on the remaining oe parts if only one is done. Something to consider.
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It's my belief that it may be best to install all 3 mounts at the same time so as to ensure a balanced restraint across the whole engine and transmission assembly at all of the connection points. It may be possible to increase the loading on the remaining oe parts if only one is done. Something to consider.
I agree. I just don't want the extra noise and vibrations since it's my daily driver when my wife needs the GT Sport. When the OEM mounts are dead (which will happen sooner than normal) I can just replace them for the same parts. :smiley:
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It's my belief that it may be best to install all 3 mounts at the same time so as to ensure a balanced restraint across the whole engine and transmission assembly at all of the connection points. It may be possible to increase the loading on the remaining oe parts if only one is done. Something to consider.
I agree. I just don't want the extra noise and vibrations since it's my daily driver when my wife needs the GT Sport. When the OEM mounts are dead (which will happen sooner than normal) I can just replace them for the same parts. :smiley:
Another agreement here! Doing the dogbone on it's own really punishes the LH gearbox mount and movement from that one feels more noticeable with a beefed up dogbone. The driver's side is quite robust and seems to stand up to it. It's also the LH gearbox one that transmits most of the noise and vibration. Gearboxes are rough, noisy things.
What the car needs is a 4th mount at the front, connected to a cross member. That's what the MK1 had and the engines in that car never flapped about like they do from MK2 onwards. Some cars use hydraulic dampers (like mini struts) to help but I've never seen them on German cars.
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They do a hydraulic damper for the mk5... I think youd have to import one from the US, fits next to the OEM 'dogbone' mount between the subframe and engine.
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Got any links as I can't find any info on it?
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Google "mk5 engine torque damper"
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http://newrunperformance.blogspot.com.es/search/label/mk5gti
developed the engine damper on the target fo Goaf MK5 GTI. :signLOL: