MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: jonnyc on January 06, 2010, 05:44:09 pm
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Hey all,
As many know the ED30 / S3 / Cupra 2.0T FSI motor is a little different..
Different pistons and rods, using a larger diameter pin and non-tapered piston..
Anyways, im going to have a set of custom rods made for mine which will work with the stock pistons, for those that are looking for peace of mind when running more power but dont want to go down the road of having the engine torn apart, re bored etc etc..
Fitting should be around 2 days start to finish..
Price will be around £500 for a set of 4
Let me know if your interested now before I get mine sent over from the US...
Jonny
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Who's making them Jonny?
Why not just get the IE rods or some ready made ones from Carillo?
Why staying with the stock pistons?
Not going for race cams? - I've just ordered some Schrick race cams - makes sense to fit at the same time too :happy2:
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Who's making them Jonny?
Why not just get the IE rods or some ready made ones from Carillo?
Why staying with the stock pistons?
Not going for race cams? - I've just ordered some Schrick race cams - makes sense to fit at the same time too :happy2:
No one does a drop in rod for that piston, thats why im having some made up..
I was thinking about cams, but up until now no one has proved them to make any more power at all.. In fact, im sure one of the guys in the states lost a bit of mid range and gained nothing up top..
Staying stock pistons purely to keep the stock CR and avoid having to fully build the engine, the difference in cost is a couple of grand in the end..
Im building the head too so it will be interesting to know.. When are you doing cams on yours? :smiley:
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Cams will go in as soon as they arrive from Germany.
I spoke to Regal and they say that I should expect to see 15/20bhp in the mid to upper rev range and 5/10bhp on the peak figure. it is part of my plan on building the top end, which is ongoing along with....
Ported head
Ferrera valvetrain
Supertech valves
Cambelt change
Tensioner change
Water pump change
Also spoke to Revo this afternoon who say that the cams should be even better with an uprated turbo :wink:
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Cams will go in as soon as they arrive from Germany.
I spoke to Regal and they say that I should expect to see 15/20bhp in the mid to upper rev range and 5/10bhp on the peak figure. it is part of my plan on building the top end, which is ongoing along with....
Ported head
Ferrera valvetrain
Supertech valves
Cambelt change
Tensioner change
Water pump change
Also spoke to Revo this afternoon who say that the cams should be even better with an uprated turbo :wink:
Yeah couldnt agree more, in theory it will work well.. Its just the inlet cam right? Just in practice no one (that I know of) has made power with them.. But of course thats not to say that they wont make more power with the correct mapping etc etc..
Sounds like a plan mate!! You cant do all that and keep the K04 on there.. haha..
Just ordered a load more bits for mine.. Gooddddddd! :laugh:
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Jonny, could be interested in this what are the tech specs of the rods - alloy type etc.....
I-Beam forged, super high quality (need to confirm the alloy used) but there being used in a car in the states which is just about to go on an engine dyno with a predicted figure of over 800hp at the crank, so there strong!
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I'm doing inlet and exhaust cams Jonny, they are a matching pair as I see it and having a different cam on the exhaust would be counterproductive surely???
I've seen inlet cams being sold individually in the US, but I thought you'd need both for the full benefit. Wouldn't you get blow by if the cams aren't matching?
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Are Regal Autosport a good company who know there stuff?
Im asking a serious question as i had never heard of them till just recently
Quite interested in that GT28RS kit for my vRS. 360bhp/350lb.ft will do me just fine
No need then for rods or other bits
Carl :happy2:
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That kit from Hurdy is a good bargain for someone, surprised it's still here!
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hurdy what cams are these. i believe scrick do cams for the TFSI. will revo do a custom map for this then.
carl hurdys gt2871 kit would prove better value as its cheaper and from what ive read appears to be the newer version!! and all for 1200 sheet
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Hurdy's getting the Schrick cams :happy2:
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Hurdy's getting the Schrick cams :happy2:
are such cams possible for the k03 engine. i have a k04 turbo sourced now, so i'd be k04 before i would consider them. do you have links etc
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Hurdy's getting the Schrick cams :happy2:
are such cams possible for the k03 engine. i have a k04 turbo sourced now, so i'd be k04 before i would consider them. do you have links etc
Chris at Regal says they fit K03 and K04 engines :happy2:
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Hmmmm............this mod list is feckin endless, everytime i buy someting something else takes its place :scared:.
whatsort of gains are you expecting replacing, have you spoke to REVO reference mapping?
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Hmmmm............this mod list is feckin endless, everytime i buy someting something else takes its place :scared:.
whatsort of gains are you expecting replacing, have you spoke to REVO reference mapping?
Tell me about it.!
see the 4th post on this thread :happy2:
Cams will go in as soon as they arrive from Germany.
I spoke to Regal and they say that I should expect to see 15/20bhp in the mid to upper rev range and 5/10bhp on the peak figure. it is part of my plan on building the top end, which is ongoing along with....
Ported head
Ferrera valvetrain
Supertech valves
Cambelt change
Tensioner change
Water pump change
Also spoke to Revo this afternoon who say that the cams should be even better with an uprated turbo :wink:
Revo say remapping isn't necessary as Stage 2+ can comfortably exploit the benefits of the cams alongside datalogging :smiley:
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Sorry about taking the thread off topic Jonny :ashamed:
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back on topic,
from what i gather all you need to do to uprate the internals on the k04s seems to be the rods, as the pistons can handle the extra power.
what about the k03 engine.
ive squared away a k04 turbo now, so the conversion is on the cards, id also like to get water methanol, and i like the idea of the scrick cams. that could potentialy put my BWA engine above the 350hp mark if not even more.
if i was to uprate my internals would i only need the rods to reduce the likely hood of bending things or would the pistons or anything else need doing?
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The pistons are also different on the ED30/S3/Cupra.
They give a compression ratio of 9.8:1 instead of the GTI/FR/VRs 10.25:1 (I think it is 10.25, but it maybe 10.5!!)
This enables the engine to allow more timing without knock, the GTI engine would be more prone to knock/detonation at higher outputs, which is one of the main reasons for going with a lower comp ratio with a BT conversion :happy2:
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so water meth would allow that advance of timing then without the chance of knock. hmmmm maybe i could just throw some ed30 pistons in?
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back on topic,
from what i gather all you need to do to uprate the internals on the k04s seems to be the rods, as the pistons can handle the extra power.
what about the k03 engine.
ive squared away a k04 turbo now, so the conversion is on the cards, id also like to get water methanol, and i like the idea of the scrick cams. that could potentialy put my BWA engine above the 350hp mark if not even more.
if i was to uprate my internals would i only need the rods to reduce the likely hood of bending things or would the pistons or anything else need doing?
The USP Motorsports car made 605WHP on drop in rods and stock 200hp 2.0T FSI pistons, so I would say that there fine..
But of course you need to bare in mind what John has already pointed out too, you wont be able to run as much ignition advance due to the higher CR but you will spool slightly faster as a result also, so its a bit of a balance between the two..
I would say just drop in a set of rods and steer clear of water/meth etc.. Its only one more thing to worry about, thats how I see it anyways.. I think, pump fuel, fill it and go.. :smiley:
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thats good to know,
Id probably prefer the quicker spool, as it will make it more accessible in normal driving. Is it normally just the rods that arethe weak point and prone to failing when running higher power.
the highest powered k04 conversion ive seen on DD rollers is 324hp so if a good set of cams could give 340-350 then so i should be within the capabilities of the BWA internals if i just do the rods.
I sometimes wish i bought the cupra id considered before the vRS. it'd be so much cheaper lol
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thats good to know,
Id probably prefer the quicker spool, as it will make it more accessible in normal driving. Is it normally just the rods that arethe weak point and prone to failing when running higher power.
the highest powered k04 conversion ive seen on DD rollers is 324hp so if a good set of cams could give 340-350 then so i should be within the capabilities of the BWA internals if i just do the rods.
I sometimes wish i bought the cupra id considered before the vRS. it'd be so much cheaper lol
I made 351hp on DD rollers, going off others results that would have been close to 400hp at Superchips lol.. A true 360hp is very possible with the K04.. :)
Pistons seem to be very strong, but as I have said before, rod failures have only been seen with other contributing factors, all of which would have probably fired even an after market rod too!
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i have pictures at home from the german forum, an austrian guy had custom tune on his K04 converted GTI, a really bend rod, i'll find it when i get home :wink:
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i have pictures at home from the german forum, an austrian guy had custom tune on his K04 converted GTI, a really bend rod, i'll find it when i get home :wink:
Exactly, custom tune.. They ended up running silly amounts of ignition advance without the OEM protection in the map, which caused the problem..
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first of ed30 compared to gti pistons
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2F17012009153fl2.jpg&hash=7acb49bb253bb0f4c5cb35ae67064c60634dbb0e)
then the rsult of bad programming
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2Fdsc00220ye5.jpg&hash=9d056f5fbb2584bf328b1e502cb8005b1dd7455f)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2Fdsc00242sv4.jpg&hash=9d1e3edac8dff1f259e035506057d23e2c26e914)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2Fdsc00248jg6.jpg&hash=067b38bdaba86a209b3dc098e6ca4ac066c4e538)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2Fdsc00239bo6.jpg&hash=facfd94af060461e474c48955cad7e5eeb3394af)
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2Fdsc00239bo6.jpg&hash=facfd94af060461e474c48955cad7e5eeb3394af)
And i thought dans rod was bad :scared:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fy115%2Fjonsmout%2Fbentrod.jpg&hash=2e6ab947f31b464bd92d7a58b579115880b143a0)
any body got a pic of a cupra/ed30 rod
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nothing compared to my old 9a in my mk1
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fe191%2Fgillm%2Fwinner001.jpg&hash=89949f078e3caefa8b4aa4e9dc18a047282bf40b)
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any body got a pic of a cupra/ed30 rod
I have S3 rods and pistons at the garage, ill gets some pics posted up tomorrow..
S3 and ED30 pistons and rods have the same part number
nothing compared to my old 9a in my mk1
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fe191%2Fgillm%2Fwinner001.jpg&hash=89949f078e3caefa8b4aa4e9dc18a047282bf40b)
HAHAHA!! :grin: :grin: Love it..
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nothing compared to my old 9a in my mk1
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fe191%2Fgillm%2Fwinner001.jpg&hash=89949f078e3caefa8b4aa4e9dc18a047282bf40b)
:congrats: if you going to bend it do it properly :congrats:
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any body got a pic of a cupra/ed30 rod
I have S3 rods and pistons at the garage, ill gets some pics posted up tomorrow..
S3 and ED30 pistons and rods have the same part number
Cheers Johnny do you know if the Cupra has the same part number also
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@ danishmkvgti
sh*t the bed, imagine seeing that bad boy come out your engine, you must have sh!t a brick :scared:
how would you know if you had bent something like a rod. obviously if it wa sproper bent you'd here the engine going apesh*t, but what about a sdlight kink in the rod like danGBs rod.
are S3 rods and pistons a straight fit into a BWA engine?, or are you taalking piston rings, seals bearings and more?
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Cheers Johnny do you know if the Cupra has the same part number also
I dont know for sure but I would imagine yes.. :happy2:
are S3 rods and pistons a straight fit into a BWA engine?, or are you taalking piston rings, seals bearings and more?
I would say so, 82.5MM bore in all of the 2.0T FSI motors so dont see any reason why not..
I have a set of 4 rods and 3 pistons from my S3.. All you would need is a piston and you have a full set if your interested?
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@ danishmkvgti
sh*t the bed, imagine seeing that bad boy come out your engine, you must have sh!t a brick :scared:
how would you know if you had bent something like a rod. obviously if it wa sproper bent you'd here the engine going apesh*t, but what about a sdlight kink in the rod like danGBs rod.
are S3 rods and pistons a straight fit into a BWA engine?, or are you taalking piston rings, seals bearings and more?
Just to clarify, this is from an austrians tread on a german forum. i luckily haven't experienced this :innocent:
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I dont know for sure but I would imagine yes.. :happy2:
are S3 rods and pistons a straight fit into a BWA engine?, or are you taalking piston rings, seals bearings and more?
I would say so, 82.5MM bore in all of the 2.0T FSI motors so dont see any reason why not..
I have a set of 4 rods and 3 pistons from my S3.. All you would need is a piston and you have a full set if your interested?
are the S3 pistons capable of supporting a GT2871 or anything bigger. ive made the decision to upgrade to a k04 sized willy, so should i feel its not upto the task anymore and want to go BT, will they cope or would they need uprating again?
would that mean i have changed the compression ratio to from the BWA to that of the S3? what could the benefits be apart from piece of mind
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I dont know for sure but I would imagine yes.. :happy2:
are S3 rods and pistons a straight fit into a BWA engine?, or are you taalking piston rings, seals bearings and more?
I would say so, 82.5MM bore in all of the 2.0T FSI motors so dont see any reason why not..
I have a set of 4 rods and 3 pistons from my S3.. All you would need is a piston and you have a full set if your interested?
are the S3 pistons capable of supporting a GT2871 or anything bigger. ive made the decision to upgrade to a k04 sized willy, so should i feel its not upto the task anymore and want to go BT, will they cope or would they need uprating again?
would that mean i have changed the compression ratio to from the BWA to that of the S3? what could the benefits be apart from piece of mind
i'm no expert, so jonny and others may be better at helping you, but on your engine you can get app. 390hk with apr stage 3 bt, BUT torque is the same as the K04. Its torque that kills the rods not hp. If i should go BT/above K04, and i don't says the missys that drives it daily, i would deffo get other rods and also pistons as i would want the torque over hp.
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Cheers Johnny do you know if the Cupra has the same part number also
I dont know for sure but I would imagine yes.. :happy2:
06D 198 401 C is the cupra part number i think
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are the S3 pistons capable of supporting a GT2871 or anything bigger. ive made the decision to upgrade to a k04 sized willy, so should i feel its not upto the task anymore and want to go BT, will they cope or would they need uprating again?
would that mean i have changed the compression ratio to from the BWA to that of the S3? what could the benefits be apart from piece of mind
Well im running mine on a 3076R at 22psi at the moment.. Thats well over 400hp.. :happy2:
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so uprating the pistons and rods, would mean im running the same compression ratio as the S3?...anything else that would be needed for the swap apart from the pistons and rods?
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so uprating the pistons and rods, would mean im running the same compression ratio as the S3?...anything else that would be needed for the swap apart from the pistons and rods?
Yeah, your compression ratio would drop from 10.25:1 to 9.8:1..
I can't think of anything else, just a head gasket and a couple of seals etc..
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hmm interesting. thats a definate possibility, i know of someone with the top end of an S3 engine incl cams etc that i dont think he has fitted to his K04 vRS, so that and the S3 pistons would mean id practically be running an S3 lump i guess.
I presume require a special revo stage 3 map to take into account the different compression ratio and cams. id be happy to call it a day for the car after all that me thinks, provided i dont get a ride in any BT GTIs or leons :surprised:
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hmm interesting. thats a definate possibility, i know of someone with the top end of an S3 engine incl cams etc that i dont think he has fitted to his K04 vRS, so that and the S3 pistons would mean id practically be running an S3 lump i guess.
I presume require a special revo stage 3 map to take into account the different compression ratio and cams. id be happy to call it a day for the car after all that me thinks, provided i dont get a ride in any BT GTIs or leons :surprised:
Yep..
Obviously the beauty of the Revo map is that you will be able to take advantage of the lower compression by adding some timing.. :smiley:
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hmm interesting. thats a definate possibility, i know of someone with the top end of an S3 engine incl cams etc that i dont think he has fitted to his K04 vRS, so that and the S3 pistons would mean id practically be running an S3 lump i guess.
I presume require a special revo stage 3 map to take into account the different compression ratio and cams. id be happy to call it a day for the car after all that me thinks, provided i dont get a ride in any BT GTIs or leons :surprised:
Yep..
Obviously the beauty of the Revo map is that you will be able to take advantage of the lower compression by adding some timing.. :smiley:
Im pretty keen on this now, specially as its definately a safer way to get additional timing on the engine than using water meth injection. lower maintainnece as well
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As for the issue of drop in rods, there is another option.
I inquired about this issue with Integrated a little while back and since they have no drop in rods they have suggested a set of IE rods + JE pistons.
the cost of this complete set is around the same as the rods you are discussing alone (although i do not know if they are the same strength) and the compression ratio will be 9.5:1 which is almost stock for us k04's and a good mod for the converted k04's.
the pistons are also drop ins since they are 82.5mm , same as stock.
on another issue, i really don't get the Anti approach towards water/meth. it is really a great way to cool down the intake, get more timing and as a benefit it also cleans your valves.
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can someone explain "drop in rods" is this the type or make ? surly you will have to have the head off and fit new rings and bearings ? or am i missing something ?
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can someone explain "drop in rods" is this the type or make ? surly you will have to have the head off and fit new rings and bearings ? or am i missing something ?
'Drop-in' is just the term thats used for a rod / piston that is literally just a bolt on job.. So Integrated Engineering make a drop-in rod for the 200hp TFSI motor which will work with the standard piston..
Yeah head and sump off..
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ok cheers for that . i was trying to figure out how you remove the gudgen pin lol ! i was thinking that the tsfi must be massivly different from the 16v's i have built in the past (9a's vr6's pb's) .
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ok cheers for that . i was trying to figure out how you remove the gudgen pin lol ! i was thinking that the tsfi must be massivly different from the 16v's i have built in the past (9a's vr6's pb's) .
:grin: Nahh pretty straight forward, nothing particularly special about building the bottom end of a 2.0T FSI over any other motor..