MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Performance Modifications => Modifications & Technical Area => R-Tech Zone => Topic started by: Namsgti on April 01, 2016, 02:49:07 pm
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Hi everyone, after the great reviews for rtech I decided to go to rtech for stage 2. Here's my review
Prior to rtech-
I was running a amd stage 1 map which From there dyno made 252hp and 291 lb
From posts on here people say there dyno are not accurate !!
Rtech day-
Got to rtech nice and early was greeted by great bunch of guys.
Nicky mentioned that due to my standard back box the flow would be restricted and that I won't make the figures I was expecting, which was fair enough.
The car was on the rollers for a couple of hrs, Nicky tapping away on the laptop !!
My amd stage 1 made 266hp 271ftlb
Quite shocked!
So once all done Nicky gave me the dyno print.
The car made stage 2. 270 hp 335 ftlb would of made more if the exhaust was not restricting.
I went out to test drive it but could not really push it as the road was to busy to be driving like a prat!!
So a week or so now with the map it's not as punchy as my amd map the car before used to pull really well pick up instantly as really ideal round town driving etc.
The rtech map is very linear and you have to push harder on the pedal to get it moving, once going it pulls really well.
To be honest didn't feel the extra torque that the car now makes, maybe need to get used to it!
I may contact rtech if they can adjust the map for me.
I will post my dyno print out as soon as I figure out how to do it!!
Thanks for reading guys any comments welcomed (be nice lol)
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Hi would like to know how others have got on with a linear map
Thanks
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No one :signLOL:
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+60ftlbs of torque and you dont feel it? :confused:
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+60ftlbs of torque and you dont feel it? :confused:
Maybe it's just me rich or it's because it's linear delivery that's what is making it seem slow:thinking:
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As above, 60ft lbs would noticeable. Perhaps you have just gotten to familiar with the power....
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As above, 60ft lbs would noticeable. Perhaps you have just gotten to familiar with the power....
Yeah that's what I'm thinking know
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i reckon your old map was punchy lower down and the power tailed off with the linear maps they just keep pulling all the way to the redline
punchy feels quick as its instant power but the linear will be a quicker car
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i reckon your old map was punchy lower down and the power tailed off with the linear maps they just keep pulling all the way to the redline
I think your right my last map was punchy low down the Rev range
I'm used to that I'm thinking
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How do I post my dyno print out ?
So you can see
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Upload an image to photobucket then add the link to the forum basically
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fah316%2Ffakhy37%2Fd79472c40fd075496f88c5b8c39d16b7_zpshd1hamvo.jpg&hash=95ea7fd66ac623bf4cc9777d6c9d3537dfa88c35)
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That should feel much much faster between 3-5k rpm
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That should feel much much faster between 3-5k rpm
Yes your right I think I need to give it some tomorrow lol
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I agree the linear mapping does seem to numb things a little but 3,500rpm plus and it's all good!
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Is that even a 'linear' map though? The torque and power curves are much less linear than the AMD map. Going by the graph it should feel much quicker, like Rich said.
Doesn't make any sense at all that it felt punchier with the AMD map. Unless it's something to do with the throttle mapping? There's a recent thread on that as it happens.
This is what I don't get about R-Tech maps. Everyone says they're 'linear', yet they've got a fatter curve of low to mid torque than nearly all other TFSI maps (Shark and a couple of others are comparable). Surely that makes it anything but linear, but I've heard this before, about R-Tech maps feeling tame. Lack of a big spike maybe?
I'm very happy with mine by the way, and will be going down for Stage 2 soon (just in case anyone thinks I'm doubting them!)
What are your mods? Downpipe and decat with a standard cat back at a guess?
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@Bignod00 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2840)
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Is that even a 'linear' map though? The torque and power curves are much less linear than the AMD map. Going by the graph it should feel much quicker, like Rich said.
Doesn't make any sense at all that it felt punchier with the AMD map. Unless it's something to do with the throttle mapping? There's a recent thread on that as it happens.
This is what I don't get about R-Tech maps. Everyone says they're 'linear', yet they've got a fatter curve of low to mid torque than nearly all other TFSI maps (Shark and a couple of others are comparable). Surely that makes it anything but linear, but I've heard this before, about R-Tech maps feeling tame. Lack of a big spike maybe?
I'm very happy with mine by the way, and will be going down for Stage 2 soon (just in case anyone thinks I'm doubting them!)
What are your mods? Downpipe and decat with a standard cat back at a guess?
Hi
I've got loba hpfp, 3" downpipe , induction kit
And car running on vpower fuel.
Nicky did say my oem back box was restricting flow.
I've got up early roads are quiet so will give it a little blast and report back lol
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Is that even a 'linear' map though? The torque and power curves are much less linear than the AMD map. Going by the graph it should feel much quicker, like Rich said.
Doesn't make any sense at all that it felt punchier with the AMD map. Unless it's something to do with the throttle mapping? There's a recent thread on that as it happens.
This is what I don't get about R-Tech maps. Everyone says they're 'linear', yet they've got a fatter curve of low to mid torque than nearly all other TFSI maps (Shark and a couple of others are comparable). Surely that makes it anything but linear, but I've heard this before, about R-Tech maps feeling tame. Lack of a big spike maybe?
I'm very happy with mine by the way, and will be going down for Stage 2 soon (just in case anyone thinks I'm doubting them!)
What are your mods? Downpipe and decat with a standard cat back at a guess?
Hi
I've got loba hpfp, 3" downpipe , induction kit
And car running on vpower fuel.
Nicky did say my oem back box was restricting flow.
I've got up early roads are quiet so will give it a little blast and report back lol
Let us know what you find.
You can definitely see where it drops off around 5k. I didn't think the standard cat back was too restrictive, but I'd never question what Niki says!
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@rtechniki (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1870)
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Very interesting post, R-Tech pride themselves on linear maps and have said directly they don't write more aggressive maps. Everyone gets told R-Tech are the best and everyone should go to them, but linear maps have a different feel from the more aggressive and some would say 'more exciting' maps from Revo etc. R-Tech maps no doubt do the numbers but for some other maps will feel faster and more exciting. This is a clear example of that. Horses for courses, but I would rather have a map that feels fast rather than one that requires you to carry a print out of the RR result so you know it's making the power :signLOL: :signLOL:
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Thing is though, I wouldn't call my R-Tech Stage 1 map linear. It boosts hard and holds the boost nicely. Although I haven't driven a Revo (or other tuner's) car, so it's hard for me to be objective.
I have had loads of remaps on different cars, one of which being a 1.8T (with an AMD map as it happens). It certainly didn't jump out at me after getting the R-Tech map on the GTI that it felt linear, too progressive, or too smooth. If anything it delivers the boost better than any other remap I've had (granted, with different engines).
There's obviously more going on that dictates power delivery than the torque curves we can all relate to. I'm not sure it's purely down to 1:1 throttle mapping - as far as I'm aware that's an option, rather than standard for every R-Tech map.
I've read plenty of accounts from a few years back of Superchips/Bluefin software 'feeling' really strong, but in reality that's down to a huge torque spike that's no good for anything. The graph of the OP's AMD map isn't at all spikey, is bags of torque down on the subsequent R-Tech map, yet to him it doesn't feel as punchy. It's odd.
Hopefully Niki can come along and help us out!
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Linear mapping would be the lack of a torque spike followed by a drop in the torque that you see with a lot generic maps. Niki's maps make torque strong and early, and hold that torque a lot better than most, which usully results in a linear HP curve that gets up to peak HP and holds it very well.
Do not confuse this with linear throttle mapping as that is entirely different - it's also a very love/hate thing - many like it as it gives more control, but many don't as it requires the throttle to be pressed a lot harder than you are used to in order to go anywhere. i suspect this is the reason Niki's map may not feel as punchy, as you have a lot more control and the accelerator is not basically an on/off switch that gives you 80% of power by the time you press the pedal 30% of the way down. This is often what makes the car feel punchy, but not necessarily fast/quick/powerful
The graph above is not the norm and clearly looks to be limited at the top end by hardware. The car may not feel much faster when redlining it in every gear, but around town in gear acceleration should feel a lot different so long as you press the throttle a bit further down.
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Is the OP saying he actually got the linear throttle map or its that R-Tech refer to their maps as linear in their delivery and hence this is a linear map ?, I didn't think R-Tech add linear throttle mapping as default ?, don't you need to ask for it ?
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The only person who would know is Niki, but perhaps even Niki's normal throttle mapping has a lot mroe control than the AMD map? I've driven some maps over the years where the throttle was literally on or off in the space of 20% travel of the pedal... Not saying the AMD map is like this.... But it is the only way to explain why the car doesn't feel as punchy when it makes more torque over the entire rev range - it must be the throttle mapping
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Hi everyone, after the great reviews for rtech I decided to go to rtech for stage 2. Here's my review
Prior to rtech-
I was running a amd stage 1 map which From there dyno made 252hp and 291 lb
From posts on here people say there dyno are not accurate !!
Rtech day-
Got to rtech nice and early was greeted by great bunch of guys.
Nicky mentioned that due to my standard back box the flow would be restricted and that I won't make the figures I was expecting, which was fair enough.
The car was on the rollers for a couple of hrs, Nicky tapping away on the laptop !!
My amd stage 1 made 266hp 271ftlb
Quite shocked!
So once all done Nicky gave me the dyno print.
The car made stage 2. 270 hp 335 ftlb would of made more if the exhaust was not restricting.
I went out to test drive it but could not really push it as the road was to busy to be driving like a prat!!
So a week or so now with the map it's not as punchy as my amd map the car before used to pull really well pick up instantly as really ideal round town driving etc.
The rtech map is very linear and you have to push harder on the pedal to get it moving, once going it pulls really well.
To be honest didn't feel the extra torque that the car now makes, maybe need to get used to it!
I may contact rtech if they can adjust the map for me.
I will post my dyno print out as soon as I figure out how to do it!!
Thanks for reading guys any comments welcomed (be nice lol)
The OEM throttle maps and boost ramps rates are to offer the feeling of a "perky car". 50% throttle tipping in an the turbo is already on course for running into a boost spike to give its boost over shoot kick. This give the placebo effect the car is running more grunt due to the perky feeling which comes with it. VW tuned the mk4 and mk5 R32 this way to make is seem more resonsive than it really is.
when tuning I don't tend to kick in the boost I will use the cams and time to aid the volume of power under the curves, which makes for a linear usable power deliver spear out over a wider rpm range. if you have been used to tipping into 60% pedal and getting the part throttle kick with the allowed over boost under these conditions then this is what your now missing. You now have yo use the full throttle and take advantage of the spread of torque.
The placebo effect and kick methods sell maps and make people go "oh this is aggressive and perky" even a low loads and conditions. but then a spread of controlled power makes a quick usable car due to the greater volume under there curves.
The biggest issues with your car is with your hardware your chocking it in a big way. The first thing is said to you before i went on the dyno was this is not going to be anything special over your current map due to the exact hardware combination which will be choking at the same rpm points, and then boom on the dyno the hardware chokes to the exact same point which is causing you to lose a massive amount of area from under the curves. from memory did I give you the option to take the car away and get the rest of the hardware sorted for stage2+ then bring it back and have it tuned to a level where you will be going WOW?
You can see on the graph where your missing out on what the engine wants to give. when driving look at your rpm range and you will see where you need to feel the grunt between shifts when giving it beans and you will see its exactly where your choking the power. to feel the additional torque you need to be in the load and rpm range where its loading up on the graph, something you wont feel on lower gear out of the rpm range, but loading up from 2000rpm in the higher gears you will be hitting the torque band nicely. basically drive it like a tdi to take advantage of the additional torque.
the grin factor comes from the full package which start from the research you do on the correct hardware to fitting the hardware which then the mapping will compliment. Go against the grain and get the hardware wrong and you will never be happy as the software mapping is always limited by the map.
Another thing is to check you are still on map setting 5.
once you removed the restriction the on the exhaust pop back and we can unlock the power and if you liked the aggressive effect setup we can give you some feeling back lower in the throttle range. On its own merits a decent exhaust will make a difference, infact the stock full cat back would give a better result than the current solution.
was this one running s3 cooler or stock cooler with poor air con rad?
Nick
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Respect for the explanation!
(Even though a large amount of it was lost on me..)
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stock load map vs throttle
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kkk8b7ig9xtd0v7/stock%20load%20via%20thottle.png?dl=0
boost n75 cap vs throttle position. the n75 is maxed out on this one due to the hardware chocking it so turbo cannot give more grunt, the map it cam in on was also flat out at 99% but the throttle would close on the midrnage.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oj39dfriqnbxnrn/boost%20based%20on%20tps.png?dl=0
you map 3 and 4 will have less grunt midrange.
to switch map turn engine off > ignition on > hold brake pedal > press the throttle once and off > the RPM gauge needle will move from 1000rpm to 5000rpm > press the throttle until the needle goes to 5000rpm > ignition off key out > then start car and drive.
(if you do it too slow the oil light pops up this is nothing to worry about, it just the clock think engine is reving with no oil)
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Can't say fairer than that, "bring it back if you want it more aggressive"
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Great explanation :congrats:
Simply cannot wait to get mine from Rtech and really hope my research and testing of various hardwares has left the car with the optimum setup for Niki to work his magic! :driver:
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Thanks to niki for replying, you did say about the restriction which I am looking into,
I've got a quote from powevale so that will get sorted very soon, also I'll be getting a s3 cooler too just to help it more.
I did not know it had 5 maps on it !!!
As soon as my mate returns with the car I'll check its on the right map.
As soon as I get the missing hardware I'll rebook for a map.
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Alloy S3 cooler and decent exhaust :happy2: (imo try to get a used miltek or bcs system they work a treat custom exhausts are not developed on the cars so the potential they offer can be hit and miss)
Look at your graph you can see it wanting to carry on to 280-290hp but just chokes lol, once its done to flow then it will be night and day.
I look forward to it, keep us updated.
Niki
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Alloy S3 cooler and decent exhaust :happy2: (imo try to get a used miltek or bcs system they work a treat custom exhausts are not developed on the cars so the potential they offer can be hit and miss)
Look at your graph you can see it wanting to carry on to 280-290hp but just chokes lol, once its done to flow then it will be night and day.
I look forward to it, keep us updated.
Niki
Will do niki
Once again Thankyou for your help
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Good to hear the true technical explanation from Niki on what is the cause of the placebo effect etc. Thanks :happy2:
Did you go back and get the map adjusted for more low end feel ?, Would be interesting to see what you think after the adjustment
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@Namsgti (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=15900) any update ?