MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: xxx_mojo_xxx on January 21, 2010, 01:39:37 pm
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What's the safe limit to push a K03 engine before you're asking for trouble.
Put in another way when can you start expecting to blow up the engine or chewing up a DSG gearbox?
This is assuming none of the engine components have been upgraded (apart from the DV valve).
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i dont think there is a limit, i think you just upgade to KO4 when you run out of ponys.
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i dont think there is a limit, i think you just upgade to KO4 when you run out of ponys.
Are you suggesting you simply replace the turbo with a K04 and continue to push more bhp out?
Surely things like piston rods, valves, cams, etc. have an upper threshold after which you are seriously degrading the lifespan of the engine or running the risk of blowing it up?
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^^ not really sure, but i think jonny is running about 400bhp on standard internals but big turbo. :smiley:
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^^ not really sure, but i think jonny is running about 400bhp on standard internals but big turbo. :smiley:
Wow, and is that his daily run about too?
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^^ not really sure, but i think jonny is running about 400bhp on standard internals but big turbo. :smiley:
Wow, and is that his daily run about too?
yups, take a look at his thred in the members section, maybe even more than 400, cant remember now.
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^^ not really sure, but i think jonny is running about 400bhp on standard internals but big turbo. :smiley:
Yes but on standard ED30 internals.
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^^ not really sure, but i think jonny is running about 400bhp on standard internals but big turbo. :smiley:
Yes but on standard ED30 internals.
I thought so...on a standard GTi I think the limit would be significantly lower.
Plus, a DSG gearbox would probably be beyond it's limit at 400 bhp.
So, coming back to my original question - anyone got an idea?
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didnt know there was mucho difference, also jonny is dsg i think.
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didnt know there was mucho difference, also jonny is dsg i think.
there are a few mate :smiley:
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How far beyond 300bhp do you want to go? :evilgrin:
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I thought so...on a standard GTi I think the limit would be significantly lower.
Plus, a DSG gearbox would probably be beyond it's limit at 400 bhp.
So, coming back to my original question - anyone got an idea?
The difference is not as much as people think, apart from the low CR.. 10.1:1 compared to 9.8:1 of the ED30 the rods are basically the same apart from a larger pin.. Thats the only thing that would affect the bottom ends strength..
I think generally people are a little too scared of 'pushing' the limits.. K04 on a 2.0T FSI is not a problem, its really not..
I know im running an ED30 motor, but im running 22psi on a 3076R.. Thats be proven to be over 400WHP so high 400's crank.. The same as been achieved on AXX motors without problems IF the tune is right.. You could throw a rod on a K03 turbo if your tune is sh*tty, thats a fact..
Also there is this fear surrounding the DSG box, show me one that has broken (anywhere in the world) due to too much power or torque..
To answer your question, if your running W/M injection and every single bolt on going 300hp is achievable on a K03 turbo, any more than that and your kidding yourself..
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^^bacillus is KO3 and running 300 on a DD RR, he is even on standard intake! :laugh:
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and a few other rr Joe :laugh:
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and a few other rr Joe :laugh:
yups :innocent:
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....
The 'safe' limit on any car is surely going to depend on the map and mods and maintenance of that individual car.
The more you push the envelope, the more the risk to reliability and longevity. Hence why race cars and Nurburgring BMW Taxi engines get stripped down so regularly.
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The KO3 engine is well able for a KO4 turbo and can run REVO stage 3 with no problems at all, stage 3 is based on stage 2+ on the KO4 engine. Even though the KO4 engine is " beefed " up over the Ko3 engine the threshold where it will blow up isn't actually that much higher, the KO3 engine is quite strong.
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Is this based on anecdotal evidence or road tests, etc.
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Is this based on anecdotal evidence or road tests, etc.
....It's based on what some bloke told you on the internet :evilgrin:. But that also applies to anything I say too :grin:
It's not so much a question of whether a K03 GTI can be pushed but more a question of risk. As I said before, the more you push the envelope, the more the risk. You don't have to be an expert to understand that.
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True, but there must be some sort of indicative boundary at which things start going horribly wrong....
Has anyone mangled their engine...are the K03 300bhp and K04 400bhp cars being used as daily runs abouts and being serviced as normal?
Or are the owners of these having to maintain a shorter service interval?
I realise I am a long way from these figures...but I was interested purely from an academic perspective and whether this is a consideration when chasing the bhp numbers....
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micky 32 already has a k04 converted BWA engine so its from persoanl experience as well.
The k04 converted BWA engines have been proven to be working well within limits on APR and REVO software time and time again, whilst making 320+ horsepower, so 300Hp is within the abilities of the BWA engine. Provided you have a good intercooler and as the other guys say, a reputable remap with the correct settings
DanGB bent a piston rod on his BT leon when it had the GT2871 turbo fitted on the BWA engine So id say that anything more than the k04 is a no no
Or are the owners of these having to maintain a shorter service interval?
the general consensus is that having your car serviced every 10-12k is thr way to go, unless you are making some ridiculous power like jonnyC where you could half that to 5-6k intervals
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We are all individuals and some will push to the limits of their car more than others. It's clearly sensible imo to increase servicing on a modded car - Change the plugs more often for example. Closely inspect the car more often etc etc - It's common sense.
I don't think anyone here has 'mangled' their engine.... Yet! Reading the various threads shows the extent of people's mods.
If it's any help, I have been told quite independently by very experienced people in the industry that unofficially VW build-in a 'headroom' tolerance of about +40% to their oem cars. So, applying that, a 200 bhp car is 'safe' up to 280 bhp unless you do further modifications.
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+40% to their oem cars. So, applying that, a 200 bhp car is 'safe' up to 280 bhp
if thast true the Ed 30 is only ok for 322Hp, which we know is way below the abilities of them. however if they have thesame internals as the S3 then that would be good fro 365Hp
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OK, the bhp limit I'm chasing is 280... :star:
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safe as houses, get some water meth as well, lower inlet temps, so less detonation so less heat, with the by product of more power as well.
As jonny says the only way past 280hp on a k03 is with water methanol.
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I watch my TV in black and white to make it last longer, I don't want to be putting any stress on the colour....
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:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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The point is, you go as far as you personally feel comfortable with, which is what Robin is saying..
You cannot assign a figure to the breaking point of a motor, its really not that simple, its not just 350hp its ok.. 351 and its going to sh*t itself.. There are so so many different factors.. Which brings me back to my point that you could easily throw a rod at 200hp all it takes is excessive heat, a bearing to nip up in the bottom end and see ya later..
the general consensus is that having your car serviced every 10-12k is thr way to go, unless you are making some ridiculous power like jonnyC where you could half that to 5-6k intervals
I do mine every 3-4k, but thats very much on the safe side.. For the cost of a filter and 5 litres of oil and 30 mins effort its VERY much worth it in my eyes.. That goes for any car!
safe as houses, get some water meth as well, lower inlet temps, so less detonation so less heat, with the by product of more power as well.
As jonny says the only way past 280hp on a k03 is with water methanol.
Lets not get back into the K03 making 300hp with a standard intake argument.. But seriously.. Its NEVER going to happen without W/M and every single supporting mod to allow you to run gobs of boost low down, and lots of ignition advance top end..
Anyways Bacillus, are you going to make it to Pod? Then you can shut us all up with a mid 13 second run.. :wink: :wink:
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I watch my TV in black and white to make it last longer, I don't want to be putting any stress on the colour....
.... :signLOL:
That's extremely funny but not in the slightest an equivalent. Your colour TV is delivered to you as a colour TV, not a B&W.
[That reminds me, it's about time I paid my licence!]
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I have 8k done since fitting the KO4 , everything still running perfect.
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I have 8k done since fitting the KO4 , everything still running perfect.
....Good to hear :happy2:
I had the opportunity when my K03 broke to go K04 but couldn't justify the cost as it was also when my suspension needed replacing. VWR-KW-V3's were a more attractive spend for me and I have no regrets.
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....Good to hear :happy2:
I had the opportunity when my K03 broke to go K04 but couldn't justify the cost as it was also when my suspension needed replacing. VWR-KW-V3's were a more attractive spend for me and I have no regrets.
Get a fuel pump on there and upgrade to 2+ :happy2: You won't regret it..
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So, what's involved with water and meths? Is there a conversion kit?
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So, what's involved with water and meths? Is there a conversion kit?
alot of info in this thread for you
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7870.msg164190#new
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I watch my TV in black and white to make it last longer, I don't want to be putting any stress on the colour....
.... :signLOL:
That's extremely funny but not in the slightest an equivalent. Your colour TV is delivered to you as a colour TV, not a B&W.
[That reminds me, it's about time I paid my licence!]
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fnn89%2FJoegirl594%2Fslap.gif&hash=ced6cfe5b601cbd7b8f634a6d799be7edf0d3402)
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20.000 km with K04 on AXX, everything a okay :drinking:
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I watch my TV in black and white to make it last longer, I don't want to be putting any stress on the colour....
.... :signLOL:
That's extremely funny but not in the slightest an equivalent. Your colour TV is delivered to you as a colour TV, not a B&W.
[That reminds me, it's about time I paid my licence!]
It was only ever supposed to be funny, job done!
@ Mojo, you don't have to max out a K03, just having it running right and to the best of its ability - figures are cock all.
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figures are cock all.
:congrats: :congrats:
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figures are cock all.
:congrats: :congrats:
So wots the sweet spot bhp?
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figures are great but its the delivery of it that matters., you dont want it in a lump, you want it progressive and contant.
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figures are great but its the delivery of it that matters., you dont want it in a lump, you want it progressive and contant.
Sound like my wife giving me instructions in bed :ashamed:
Are we still talking about the cars? :signLOL:
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figures are cock all.
:congrats: :congrats:
So wots the sweet spot bhp?
I honestly don't know, as I've only ever been on one set of rollers and then that'll fire up the whole accuracy debate again, which I can't be bothered with.
Mine's set up in such a way it feels like an N/A. It spools super early because of the decat and has a pretty much flat torque curve - it probably doesn't make as much power/torque as it is capable of, but then I think it'd ruin its feel on track if it did.
It's pound for pound as fast as StevieD's stage1 ED30s, if that helps? We decked both from 3rd on the 'bahn and they just sat side by side till about 140 and we bottled out.
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mines k04 on a k03 gti and has been fine, is used as a daily driver and for some fun at the weekend!! :happy2:
I watch my TV in black and white to make it last longer, I don't want to be putting any stress on the colour....
:signLOL:
find this quite funny!!