MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Ottis on January 22, 2010, 12:13:16 am
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Has anyone install Morego suspension tweaks that lower the front of the car by 10mm and include 1.5° of additional negative camber on the front wheels for pin-sharp turn-in and power-out,i have read this upgrade make mk5 twitchy at high speed',and cause tyre wear?
I have fitted morego wishbones and found no problem in over 6 months with a lot of hard driving and two track day's,has really helped ED30 handling
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A friend (he doesn't frequent the forums) had the Morego wishbones but suffered badly uneven tyre wear. The problem arose mainly because of their combination with adjustable coilovers.
You need to consider suspension as a whole package in which all the components work well together. Dampers, springs, anti-roll bars, castor, bushes, wishbones, even brakes and aftermarket engine mounts, all play a part and need to be properly set up.
Hope this helps.
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Most people just convert to S3/TT wishbones instead. Lighter & cheaper with the same effect.
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^^^^
Apart from lighter weight, what are the performance advantages of S3/TT wishbones?
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Slightly more camber, not as much as Morego's iirc but it's better to get it from the wishbone than the topmount.
Jonny said getting camber by the wishbone is better because it has less of an effect on the rollcenter - I'm afraid I don't know much about this, but enough to know it makes the car feel weird if you play with it.
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^^^^
:drinking: Thanks Mike
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I have got Morego wishbones fitted on my car for about 30 000km(19000 miles) It doesn't look like Hight tech, are pretty expensive put it's the best mod ever. :happy2:
It completely transform the car handling, eradicate understeer.
The car is tail happy without big sway bars and pretty neutral and adjustable with it.
Tyre wear is perfect.
I'll remplace them with better looking, lighter, and adjustable TT lower arms if I can get 2° of negative camber like Morego's.
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the TT lower control arms can give an additional 0.5 degrees negative camber over your cars standard setup.
any more adjustment than that from the bottom of the control arms wouldnt be any good as you would be pulling the drive shaft further out of its housing, hence if you want mega cambr, you go for top mounts.
But as the guys said its the total package that counts. Not to offay about roll centres, but know if you lower you car to far you can actually make it handle worse
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@VRSY
I'm not sure I understood.
When you write ''your cars standard setup'' you talk about OEM standard set up?
That mean about 1° of negative camber or my set up 2° of negative camber?
I dont have any drive shaft issue until now.
On Audi-sport.net Forum, people says that with TT lower arms you can get from 1.5° up to 2.5° of négatif camber.
So who is right!!!????
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^^^^
Laurent, understanding that English isn't your native language, the words "standard", "oem", and "stock", all mean the same: Standard as built in VW's factory by German craftsmen and not modified by mad Englishmen like us!
:smiley:
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I have got Morego wishbones fitted on my car for about 30 000km(19000 miles) It doesn't look like Hight tech, are pretty expensive put it's the best mod ever. :happy2:
It completely transform the car handling, eradicate understeer.
The car is tail happy without big sway bars and pretty neutral and adjustable with it.
Tyre wear is perfect.
I agree totally,i have also tighten chassis and handling by;
Eibach sport springs and Boge Turbo gas shocks shocks,Morego Powergrip wishbones,
Front 22mm Adjustable Sway bar + Rear 24mm Adjustable Sway bar ,
Bump steer correction kit,Bush kit - control arm Front,ECS stainless steel brake line +
ATE super blue fluid,Speed bleeder brake nibbles,Stasis 345 Touring 2-piece Alcon rotors + slotted rear rotors,Audi TT 8.5 x 19†Sportline Split rims,235x35x19†Pirell Pzero Nero,
10mm Forge wheel spacers,Jack point soft pads.
new tracking required due to new 19†Sportline Split rims.Thank you all for comments and help
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Thanks Redrobin :happy2:
Sorry, I do my best, but I'm not fluent. Far from it. :notworthy:
I'm still confused.
Some says that TT arms give only -1.5 degrees camber; that's -0.5 degree négative camber over OEM arms.
Others says TT arms give up to a full -2.5 degrees camber that's -1.5 degrees over OEM arms.
Matt WALKER from VWR told me that he is going to check this on one of their car for me, but he is very busy and then hard to contact.
Does anybody gets fitted TT lower arms on his car in there?
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Some says that TT arms give only -1.5 degrees camber; that's -0.5 degree négative camber over OEM arms.
Thats correct.. :smiley: Personally, having seen the Morego bottom arms, I wouldn't dare run them on my car.. Gash doesn't even come close!!
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lol, they do look like theyhave been welded by jonny aged 5. (not jonnyC lol).
i reckon get some caster adjustable top mounts and max the out instead.
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lol, they do look like theyhave been welded by jonny aged 5. (not jonnyC lol).
i reckon get some caster adjustable top mounts and max the out instead.
The best way would certainly be to get the adjustable bottom arms from the TT.. You save weight plus get the 0.5 degrees (if you want it) then do another 0.5 on the top mount but rotate them for increased caster also.. This way you will keep the roll centre as close to standard as possible, and save weight at the same time..
Thats what im doing anyways..
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so your trying for around 2 degrees negative then. are you running poly bushes as well or are you runnin std bushes. looked into that, the bushes are cheap but the amount of time to fit them made labour bloody nuts
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so your trying for around 2 degrees negative then. are you running poly bushes as well or are you runnin std bushes. looked into that, the bushes are cheap but the amount of time to fit them made labour bloody nuts
2.0 is about as much as I want to run on this size of tyre to be honest.. Just running the WALK at the min but I do have a full poly bush kit sat in the garage, going to do them all when I fit the ally hubs / bottom arms rear etc etc..
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The best way would certainly be to get the adjustable bottom arms from the TT.. You save weight plus get the 0.5 degrees (if you want it) then do another 0.5 on the top mount but rotate them for increased caster also.. This way you will keep the roll centre as close to standard as possible, and save weight at the same time..
Thats what im doing anyways..
It is what I asked to VWR:
If TT lower arms can't give more than -1.5° of négative camber then we will use KW adjustable top mount, if they fit my Bilstein.
I'll also have VWR poly bushes all around.
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Morego wishbones photo's
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fzz91%2FOttis_photos%2FPicture089.jpg&hash=9c0d3e13a8afa3de28165c905066a0e3d23048e1)
orginal wishbones and morego Powergrip wishbones,the thickness of weiding is for additional strenght
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fzz91%2FOttis_photos%2FPicture101.jpg&hash=09e6ff580cc62a9e0dd64b037e9c6e5ac612d8dc)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fzz91%2FOttis_photos%2FPicture100.jpg&hash=90aa8f9749c61af469090c3201c2f99da42bde3f)
fitted to ED30
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fzz91%2FOttis_photos%2FPicture102.jpg&hash=b97dd29ecdcdf3e220c178f8dc59390d6bf64325)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fzz91%2FOttis_photos%2FPicture103.jpg&hash=59e5bac3a83c977cc001e284e85530d2faf8ac27)
i have also tighten chassis and handling by
Eibach sport springs and Boge Turbo gas shocks shocks,Morego Powergrip wishbones,
Front 22mm Adjustable Sway bar + Rear 24mm Adjustable Sway bar ,
Bump steer correction kit,Bush kit - control arm Front,
If there is a better way to tighten chassis and handling It completely transform the car handling, eradicate understeer,for mainly road use and the odd track day,let me know :notworthy:
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Did you weigh the wishbones? As they look like the steel ones you find on a normal Golf, rather than the lighter cast ones off a GTI.
The chassis on a MK5 is generally considered to be stiff enough, that's why strut braces and other mods like that aren't common. It is something like 85% stiffer than the Mk4.
I'd just suggest setting up your ARBs and geometry to dial in more oversteer, play with what you already have as it sounds fine.
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Steel wishbones are last one fitted on GTI MkV and A3.
@Tony Danza
I didn't weight them but I found out on Forums that:
Stock are about 4.1 Kg each side.
S3/TT are about 2.3 Kg each side.
Morego definitly don't look good, but it works.
2 years ago, if I would have known that TT arms could fit and gives more camber, I would have bought them.
I’m also considering S3 alloy hubs (or swivel bearing? not sur about the name) as they are lighter.
TT hubs are alloy too but seem to widen the track and I can’t go any wider.
Jonnyc, do you know anything about yhat?
@OTTIS
Your 22mm front sway bar seem too small for me.
Turn in should be very agressive but you could overload the outer front wheel and then get understeer.
And in fast curves or direction change, your car should feel very unstable.
I have 28mm front sway bar set on soft and 24 mm rear sway bar set on hard.
My car is pretty neutral and adjustable, oversteer when you enter curves on the brakes or lift up the gaz, slighty understeer under hard accélération.
For more oversteer 26mm front sway bar should be fine.
But a lot of oversteer is fun but not efficient.
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thats a strange setup ARB wise having such a big bar at the front. on a FWD car a stiff front ARB will increase understeer, stiffen the ARB and you'll reduce understeer. Its getting the balance right between them.
I have eibachs. not to sure on the sizes of the bars, but between weekends at the nurburgring i trialled a few different settings front and back, trying both on soft, front stiff rear soft, both stiff, and ront soft, rear stiff.
having the front softest and rear on its stiffest turned out to give the best turn in, although i have considered getting a stiffer rear bar, to decrease understeer more and put a bit more balance towarss oversteer.
reference alloy hubs, i believe he is getting the TT hubs. what would be the problem with a wieder track though? the only problem i could envisage would be the driveshafts not being long enough.
can someone wih etka have a look to see if there are different part numbers for the TT driveshafts
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Steel wishbones are last one fitted on GTI MkV and A3.
@Tony Danza
I didn't weight them but I found out on Furoms that:
Stock are about 4.1 Kg each side.
S3/TT are about 2.3 Kg each side.
Morego definitly don't look good, but it works.
2 years ago, if I would have known that TT arms could fit and gives more camber, I would have bought them.
I’m also considering S3 alloy hubs (or swivel bearing? not sur about the name) as they are lighter.
TT hubs are alloy too but seem to widen the track and I can’t go any wider.
Jonnyc, do you know anything about yhat?
@OTTIS
Your 22mm front sway bar seem too small for me.
Turn in should be very agressive but you could overload the outer front wheel and then get understeer.
And in fast curves or direction change, your car should feel very unstable.
I have 28mm front sway bar set on soft and 24 mm rear sway bar set on hard.
My car is pretty neutral and adjustable, oversteer when you enter curves on the brakes or lift up the gaz, slighty understeer under hard accélération.
For more oversteer 26mm front sway bar should be fine.
But a lot of oversteer is fun but not efficient.
Oh yes, I'm not trying to tell you there's anything wrong with the Morego ones, I just hadn't realised they'd chopped a steel wishbone. From what I know of them, certainly in terms of track use they perform brilliantly. Why change them if they've been so good for 2 years.
My wishbone on my GTI looks like the dirty cast one on the right in the picture, did they change them on the GTI at some point? I know a MK6 wishbone is a steel one like the Morego one. Money saving no doubt.
Large ARBs are especially a bad idea on the front of FWD cars as they unload the inside wheel reducing traction in all circumstances. The bumpier the road the worse this problem becomes. Also, a larger bar increases weight transfer across an axle, so it will turn into an understeering pig if the rear axle is not balanced to match.
If you change the properties of a rear anti roll bar, then not only do you change its stiffness but you change its shear centre. So you get more weight transfer and less toe and camber gain. This might explain why subjectively changing the rear anti roll bar seems to make more of a difference than changing the front.
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It also sounded strange for me first, but I found out that sway bars sizes are not as simple as:
Small front/big rear = oversteer
Big front/small rear = understeer
It all depend of weight, weight distribution, and if the car is FWD, RWD, AWD.
For exemple for FWD A3 H&R provide (small kit) 26F/22R or (big kit) 28F/24R
For Quattro A3 it is 24F/26R
You'll find a long but interesting review there: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47137 (http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47137)
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@Tony_Danza
No offence about the Morego wishbones look :wink:
I just want to change them because TT arms are better looking and lighter than Morego ones and because I'm also mods addicted. :rolleye:
But about camber TT arms won't be any better than Morego's
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reference alloy hubs, i believe he is getting the TT hubs. what would be the problem with a wieder track though? the only problem i could envisage would be the driveshafts not being long enough.
can someone wih etka have a look to see if there are different part numbers for the TT driveshafts
I had a look at ETKA and you can find the same driveshafts référence for TT and A3 except that its 1K0 407 452/451 for A3 and 8J0 driveshafts for TT.
Widened the track can be a problème for me as my front wheels nearly are out of the arch.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg300.imageshack.us%2Fimg300%2F9779%2Ffaceavgoz1.jpg&hash=ffc4a1b68bb70d5984349a6276f7ad3715ef7d18)
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It also sounded strange for me first, but I found out that sway bars sizes are not as simple as:
Small front/big rear = oversteer
Big front/small rear = understeer
Yes, but we have adjustable bars, that example is for non adjustable and is theory rather than science, it won't apply to every car of course.
It all depend of weight, weight distribution, and if the car is FWD, RWD, AWD.
For exemple for FWD A3 H&R provide (small kit) 26F/22R or (big kit) 28F/24R
For Quattro A3 it is 24F/26R
You'll find a long but interesting review there: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47137 (http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47137)
Yes, I completely agree, my example was for an FWD car only. It is a different set of rules for 4WD/RWD. I will point out though that a quattro A3 is a predominently FWD car, hence the set up. Look at a proper 4WD like say A Subaru Impreza STI, H&R list that as a 22mm front and 25MM rear.
Also, you can't get too hung up on xxmm of the bars. H&R sell uprated versions of the OEM bars, so say a set with a 20% increase and a set with a 40% increase in stiffness (for arguments sake). If you set them both at medium, you get exactly the same balance as OEM, but stiffer... if you set the rear hard and the front soft, then you get the "theory" effect - small front/big rear = oversteer.
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Here are the différence beetwin A3 and TT:
See file : Service_Training_Audi_TT.pdf (http://sd-2.archive-host.com/membres/up/125116343455940179/Service_Training_Audi_TT.pdf)
@ Tony_Danza
So, I think we do agree.
Basicly, sway bars are designed to provide à balanced setup depending on car architecture (weight, weight distribution, and if the car is FWD, RWD, AWD)
Then you get bigger sway bar at the front or at the rear, or what ever.
Then, design or setup sway bar stiffer at the front or at the rear change the understeer/oversteer balance of the car.
But you can have 28mm FSB and 24 RSB and get oversteering biased car.
FWD A3/Golf/Leon need bigger sway bar at the front because 2/3 of the weight is at the front, that doesn't mean it will understeer.
But I do think that smaller sway bar at the front on a Golf is too small.
Stock setup is F23mm/R21mm => Front is 44% stiffer than rear and with 2° of négative camber at the front, the car is oversteering biased even under accélération.
My set up is F28 soft/R 24 hard=> Front is 68% stiffer than rear and with 2° of négative camber at the front, the car is neutral.
OTTIS setup is F22/R24=> the front is 29% softer than the rear.
I'm sure his car is fun and oversteering at low speed or around round-about but at high speed, I think there would be to much roll at the front and, outer front wheel over loaded and then understeer.
It what they say in the review I gave you the link.
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My set up is F28 soft/R 24 hard=> Front is 68% stiffer than rear and with 2° of négative camber at the front, the car is neutral.
IMO opinion you are cancelling out the understeer created from having such a stiff front ARB by increasing the amount of negative camber you are running. 1 degree additional negative will make a huge improvement in turn in. which is why your car feels neutral.
where as if you had an softer bar on the front and the 2 degrees of negative camber your turn in would be immense in comparison.
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vRSy,
yes on one hand you are right, and I agree with you, but have a look at this review and you will understand what I try to explain.
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47137 (http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47137)
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the thread is interesting and has alot of valid points, but i have found from personal experience having the front bar stiffer on my car has had detrimental effects.
on one of the trips to the nurburgring i set up the car with the rear bar on it softest setting and the front bar on stiffest setting. I found that the car understeered alot more than standard setup. the difference between the tw extremes of setups was huge.
I found the most neutral setup on my car was with both bars on their stiffest settings, but the crispest turn in was with the front on soft, and rear on stiff. it has since staid as that, and as been complemented with the whieline anti lift kit.
its worth noting though that my vRS has alot more weight over the rear axle than the other Vag cars.
when did you fit your arbs and morego lower arms. was it the same time.
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I fitted the ARB after Morego's wishbones.
Yes of course, if you set your ARB kit hard front and soft rear you'll get understeer biased car.
But it doesn't mean that the bigger is the rear ARB the better it is.
If it works around the balance point it doens not mean it still does at the extreme.
Sorry, it's very hard to make me clear in english.
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If you set your ARB kit hard front and soft rear you'll get understeer biased car.
But it doesn't mean that the bigger is the rear ARB the better it is.
I havent mentioned that the bigger the rear bar the better it is. if that was the case id have the neuspeed 28mm bar on the rear, i plan on increasing the rear but not to something hugely stiffer.
I agree when getting ARBs its all about balance , and what i was trying to get at was reference to the 28mm front ARB being such a large increase over the standard size one. and that it seemed a bit out of proportion to the rear bar. As tonydana said having massively stiff ARBs can cause excessive weight transfer on the axle, and having such a stiff car will remove the independance of the suspension.
saying that though, you will have greatly reduced body roll, and with the camber you wil have the understeer under control. Just seems to me a little like one is counter acting the effects of each other.
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But it doesn't mean that the bigger is the rear ARB the better it is.
Sorry, it's very hard to make me clear in english.
I think I know what is causing confusion here.
When we're talking about the theory, it is assumed it is a non-adjustable ARB. So bigger rear, smaller front for FWD.
When we're talking about our cars, we say "bigger" because we have adjustable ARBs, what we mean is making the ARB bigger by changing its settings (soft/medium/hard), not the actual size in mm. Does that make sense?
With a H&R kit - if you set the front soft and the rear med, it makes the bars effectively the same size. If you set the front soft and the rear hard, it makes the rear bar bigger. You see?
I have a slightly different set up to you all, I have 25mm hollow ARBs front and rear. When set on both the same, because the rear is larger than say a H&R kit, it makes my car perfectly neutral. So to get oversteer, I have F-med/R-hard.
Now because you have more front camber, you can apply the same kind of logic. The camber reduces the understeer effect, so you don't have to set the ARBs as aggressively as VRSY. You could run F-med/R-hard on a 26F/24R and I'd be willing to say the car will feel better than it does now. A 28mm ARB is far too stiff for a road car, it will make it too snappy in the wet and jump around on uneven surfaces. I'd soften your ARBs and get the coilovers set up to get back what you think you've lost in stiffness, you must let them do all the work instead. Cornerweighting will massively improve the balance of the car too.
Ottis' set up is different because he has got physically bigger-mm rear, so along with the wishbones he has a lot of oversteer potential, but I don't think it is making the car any worse for not having a stiffer front. depends how low/stiff he is coilover wise?
I can't read the review, the website is offline. I'll try later. However, I will add if it has been written by an American then I'm inclined to not take it as the final word on ARBs. They think everything is better bigger.
I'm not trying to tell you what you have is wrong, if it works for you then that's good :happy2: everyone has a different idea of a good handling car. But everything I have researched based on MK5 GTI race cars and discussions with a chassis engineer for a major race team agrees with the general theory advice VRSY and I have given.
I've done 8 days at the Nurburgring and 9 track days in the last year, so I do actually practice what I say too.
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way over my head but love the info guys :happy2:
Im confused though. So far I have the stats as
std arms = -1 deg
TT arms = -1.5 deg
Morego arms = -2 deg?
conventional wisdom has the morego arms as running too much neg camber that means excessive wear.
So how as the original poster managed so many miles without issue?
Have I missed something ? or have morego reduced the amount of camber they are putting into their arms?
or is there some other factor?
I take it for a road biased car being used daily for reasonable tyre mileage but with a nod to improved handling , -1.5 is the max?
on a side note , are welded arms uk MOT compliant ?
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The morego arms were producing 1.75 egrees negative camber
http://www.morego.co.uk/road_tests_item.php?road-test=9
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When I spoke to Morego way before the WALK, say about 18 months ago, I'm 99% sure they said were dialling it back.
Tyre wear, if you're scrubbing them on the track, you won't notice. If you're rolling up and down the motorway all week, you'll do the inside edges in. It's all down to usage.
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thnks guys , sounds like they have dropped it back a bit :happy2:
I can see no reason to fit them over the OE TT arms tbh :confused:
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I can see no reason to fit them over the OE TT arms tbh :confused:
....x 2
Ok for a car which does mostly track and just a bit of road (road legal track car?) but not for a car used principally for road and occasional track days. As I posted earlier, my friend had excessive tyre wear with the Morego's although that was some time ago and their first version IIRC.
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i think john_o has a really valid point
will the welded arms be valid from an MOT inspectors point of view.
as for morego dialing the camber back as well, i dont hink thyey have, that review link i posted up was from 2007. and it was 1.75 degrees then
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So, about Morego's wishbones, as it is the subject of this topic:
Morego claims 1.75° of negative camber on a stock car with standard suspension setup.
As you lower the car, you get negative camber due to the suspension geometry.
My car is lowered of about 30mm, so I got 2.1° of negative camber.
I don't have any tyre wear issue. I drive 80% on hight way, 20% on back road for fast drive and 27 laps around the Nürburgring.
Believe me or not but I even wear slightly more the outer of the tyre. Pirelli PZERO MO
My advice is to forget about the ugly, expensive yet very efficient Morego welded arms to TT lower arms.
And if you want more camber you can still get adjustable top mounts.
About sway bars, here we go again... :popcornsoda:
First point I already mentioned is the sway bars size or stiffness depend of car architecture.
And then you can need a (slightly) stiffer bar at the front to have a balanced car.
I’m going to give you an example:
Lotus Exige S... it only gets a front sway bar, nothing at the rear. And it doesn’t understeer that much…
Yes I know, you must hate me know. :wink: :fighting:
But that said, we can't really compare our setup.
These bars come from different factory, yours are alloy and mine are plain.
We don't know the lever size of each one.
So maybe your F25 Medium/R25 Hard is the same stiffness and balance than H&R F26 Soft/R22 Hard!!??
All I can say and what the review says, is:
1/Rear 22mm H&R only => understeer yet it sound surprising. Because front is too soft.
2/H&R F26mm soft/R22mm Hard => well balanced, throttle adjustable, fun and great for road use.
3/H&R F28mm soft/R24mm Hard =>very sharp, well balanced, slightly under- steer biased chassis, adjustable, good for road/track use.
My setup:
-2° front camber, H&R F28mm soft/R24mm Hard: Very sharp, amazing on fast road and on track. Very neutral and adjustable.
I tried H&R F28mm Hard/R24mm Hard it was not that bad, may be a beginning of slight understeer.
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Lotus Exige S... it only gets a front sway bar, nothing at the rear. And it doesn’t understeer that much…
Yes I know, you must hate me know.
that has to be one of the worst comparisons :wink:
extremely light weight car, extremely low centre of gravity, extremly stiff chassis, exremely stiff race suspension and most importantly rear wheel drive. not really comparable to the mk5 chassis.
-2° front camber, H&R F28mm soft/R24mm Hard: Very sharp, amazing on fast road and on track. Very neutral and adjustable
id agree with that, but id wager alot of that is down to the camber
what i do agree with though is that its hard to compare ARBs unless you know how much stiffer than the standard ARBs are they are in comparison to each other
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Laurent.d. If your car does what you want it to, doesn't eat tyres and and you're happy - then everything is achieved. I don't want to go around in circles and appear like I'm arguing with you, I'm not.
It is yours and the American's opinion on what ARBs work, and I completely agree that different makes have different tensile strength. You can't compare anything but the same, that's why I only every quoted theory. It differs from the opinion of me, VRSY, known MK5 racing cars set up here in the UK and the opinion of the chassis engineer I know.... it doesn't make either opinion right, it just means you choose what you prefer based upon the information available.
The Morego arms, they were developed in a time where TT/S3 arms didn't exist in the tuning world. They work, they may have compromises and we know a better alternative now. I wouldn't change them if I had them and were otherwise happy. But I wouldn't buy them over TT arms. We agree there.
Lets call it a day there.
Oh, you can't compare a spaceframed, mid-engined lightweight sportscar with double wishbone suspension to a FWD twice the height & weight car on McPherson struts and multilink rear.. That's insane!
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Lotus Exige S... it only gets a front sway bar, nothing at the rear. And it doesn’t understeer that much…
Yes I know, you must hate me know.
that has to be one of the worst comparisons :wink:
Yes, it's not very fair, I took this spécific exemple as a provocation to tease you. :signLOL:
@Tony_danza
No prob , I take it easy, we just having a topic discution is not matter about life or death. :wink:
I don't think we really disagree.
I had the same point of view than you have now, before I get my sway bar kit.
At the workshop I bought the kit (they are suspension spécialiste) they told me according to racing drivers that it was better to have a bigger front sway bar.
But they also told me that feeling about understeer or oversteering biased car also depende on the driver.
And I have to say that my setup works very well.
But to go on your side, I'm sure that replace my 28 FARB with a 26 FARB would give me a more oversteering biased car.
So I see only one solution, we have to meet at the Nürburgring to see which setup is the fastest. :driver:
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I don't think we disagree either, our theory is the same, I just don't think such a large bars are a good idea for a road car.
I am at the 'Ring from the 20th-26th of May.
If you are too, then we can jump in each other's passenger seats and see how they work :happy2:
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Ok, I'll try to be there.
But I think I'm not your man to get in the passager seat :scared: or maybe if you bring plastic bags :sick: :wink:.
But I will be pleased to (try) to follow you on the track if your are not too fast for me.
Otherwise I will be pleased to meet you and speak about our cars, our laps and this amazing track.
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It also sounded strange for me first, but I found out that sway bars sizes are not as simple as:
Small front/big rear = oversteer
Big front/small rear = understeer
It all depend of weight, weight distribution, and if the car is FWD, RWD, AWD.
For exemple for FWD A3 H&R provide (small kit) 26F/22R or (big kit) 28F/24R
For Quattro A3 it is 24F/26R
You'll find a long but interesting review there: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47137 (http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47137)
:happy2:
I thought as well that I need a softer setting at front and a stiff one at rear.
If the Whiteline 24/24 or the hollow APR 27/27 had TÜV at that time I'd have
gone for one of them.
When I first tried the hard setting on both front and rear I was really suprised.
Turn in was far better !!
In my case the loss of traction wasn't remarkable :wink:.
With stiffer springs on front this will be different of course. So try by your own.