MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: J5BWS on January 24, 2010, 12:48:41 am
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Hi
Over the past few months I've done some subtle mods on my car (pics will follow over the next few more weeks) and I've pretty much got it where I want it to be, however one thing that has come to my attention more-so than ever now that the car is feeling rapid, is that the standard brakes are pretty poor. I was on a bit of a spirited drive today and had to really stamp (like as much pressure as I could put on them!) on them before they did anything at one point.
I was wondering what would significantly improve my braking setup on a tight (£300-£700 tops!) budget?
I do intend to fit my new wheels in the next few weeks, with some Michelin Pilot PS3 tyres so obviously that will help a bit but any advice would be really appreciated please...
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http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10942.0 get your these, then buy a good set of pads. DaveB1978 will be able to advise on good pads. you wont get anything better value than that
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Thanks, but are the R32 brakes really that much better than the standard GTI setup?...
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I think so yes. The brakes on my S3 are much better than the Octavia's I had.
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Thanks, but are the R32 brakes really that much better than the standard GTI setup?...
Dave B put it well. You get £400 worth of improvement. I had S3 brakes (same as R32) Front snd Rear, and I was impressed by the improvement over stock.
:happy2:
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I agree, for your budget the R32/S3 upgrade is about the best you'll get (especially new). In combination with some fast road pads you'll have much better braking than a GTI
312mm v's 345mm discs
286mm solids v's 310mm vented
The calipers are still single pot, but the pots are slightly larger and give more force to the pads.
:happy2:
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Thanks for the comparison there, much appreciated.
I have however also seen the Porsche BBK's now, god what I'd give for them however, budget, not wanting to go daft and wanting to keep things fairly standard means the R32 setup is the main contender so if that set is still for sale at the end of the week I'll probably be treating my Geet! :happy2:
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Porsche brakes for £700 is doable maybe a bit less.
They are sizeable calipers and can be made to fit effectively, here are some GT3 RS calipers on a Mk4, these are over 90mm wide but with some wisely chosen wheels and some adaptors we managed to get them on a mk4 with no poke
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FDentReform%2FConversion%2FExhaust-2.jpg&hash=09bc01ca48bf5241806300def240bdc4c216c447)
Ive been toying with the idea of doing a carrier for 312's on boxster fronts calipers which would be a cost effective 1/2 way house between the S3/R32 stuff and a Fullon BBK with a little Bling thrown in cos we like it. Theres good pad choice for that caliper and the boxster fronts have the same piston surface area as the 996 Carrera 2/4 calipers but are limited to a 25mm thick disc so it would work well.
If anybody wants to guinea pig it for me I'd do it as cheap as I could, but it wouldn't really validate it unless somebody was tracking it with some 1/2 decent pads which aren't cheap. The geometric limit for the caliper is about 320mm on disc diameter and we all know we like to think biggest is best which again we all know isn't really the case. The 996 only gets 318mm brakes and they're phenomenal.
The big problem with the S3/R32 kit is pad availability - theres just not much out there for them, Beddie brought my attention to some Carbon Metallics for a Mazda Race Series that would fit but they contaminate your disc when it comes to your driving to work pads
PM me if you fancy guinea pigging that setup.
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Carbotech stuff Dave?
I run them and agree, you can't use them on a used disc and you can't swap back to normal unless you have it re-ground. Luckily I dropped on a spare set of rotors, so I can have a set just for the XP8s. I will say though, they do have plenty enough cold bite to be a good daily pad.
I ran these at Oulton yesterday, I was doing 2:05-ish laps and at one point stayed out for 25 minutes... they didn't fade once.
Tabs and I had some good scalps yesterday :wink:
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HEL Braided brake lines? Best £60 you'll spend on your brakes :happy2:
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Carbotech pads are one of the best, but unfortunately unkind to alloys regardless of how often you clean them.
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Carbotech pads are one of the best, but unfortunately unkind to alloys regardless of how often you clean them.
Really? But then I suppose mine are powdercoated rather than painted and they're bladdered in rim-wax. Bit of Bilberry wheel cleaner and they're sparkling again.
You use brakes hard, you've got to expect mess I suppose.
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comes down to your anticipated usage tbh, more than an occasional track day then go BBK.
I went R32 setup as it suited my needs and budget at the time.
as stoke said, DaveB hit the nail on the head , its an improvement overstock but only to a certain extent.
R32 : relatively cheap , VW OE parts but increased unsprung weight.
I went road an wet Oulton Park just fine with them (albeit not at tony d's pace :signLOL:) without fade (which I would have had in stock 312mm discs)
I like them alot (apart from the weight issue , which can be partially negated by fitting lower TT alloy arms :happy2:)
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Pace - I don't know what you mean? ha ha.
Check this pic From Saturday, if you look hard enough, you'll see the discs are glowing red - that's how good XP8s & RBF600 are not to have faded!!
I might have been bullying some rather modded & LSD'd Focus STs at the time. The working class GTI scalps again!! :evilgrin:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FTrackdays%2FOulton_23-01-10%2FIMG_8188.jpg&hash=3cb41ec27479ac1247b68c7f7c7eef271985b401)
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I've heard loads of people say a decent set of pads make a huge difference on standard brake, why not give some a go and potentially save hundreds... IMO a lot of people go for bigger brakes for show, and theres nothing wrong with that but its a lot of money!
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^^ agreed, don't go buying bigger brakes and then put crap pads & fluid in them - you'll have no more advantage than someone on 312s with something really aggresive pad wise for half the price.
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....
True perhaps that some people might go for a BBK for show but if they buy a well designed and tested kit by an established manufacturer and don't change what the manufacturer recommends, they're going to get vastly improved braking whether they want it or not. And, very importantly imo, they'll get aftersales support.
Unless someone really knows what they are doing, like DaveB and tony_d, I think it's dodgy to mix and match. That's why the oem R32/S3 option is very worthwhile considering. DIY has its downside.
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Dodgy to mix and match what? discs and calipers??
I agree, there's some very complex calcs need doing on master cylinder size, piston size and many other things. I don't possess that skill.
A BBK is largely pointless unless you're using your car on track. There's plenty of OEM+ upgrades that will more than suffice for a fast road car. Pads & fluid being the main.
There's also plenty tracking just 312 set ups and having plenty of fun, staying within the limits of what you have isn't a show stopper. SteveyD has no less of a good time on track as me on his 312s, it isn't racing, it doesn't matter. You don't NEED big brakes, they're just very nice to have.
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I know that Msportman also used to run agressive pads on the stock 312mm setup on the track and was very happy with them :happy2:
albeit with reduced life of the discs (which are rel cheap)
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A BBK is largely pointless unless you're using your car on track.
You don't NEED big brakes, they're just very nice to have.
....I have had moments on the road (last Saturday being the most recent) when I've been more than happy to have my BBK - Someone objected to me holding them up in a 40 mph roadworks with active Specs and then when I was able to change lane and let him pass he braked to a standstill in an effort to make me run into the back of him! I'd rather have big brakes and not need them, than need them and not have them.
But I don't disagree with you about how they greatly add to the enjoyment of track days etc. :happy2:
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Good thread and some great input thanks lads!
The options I'm considering at the moment are:
Boxster Custom Setup
996 Setup
R32 Front & rear although the weight puts me off...
Or of course I could stick with the standard setup with uprated pads and even discs as you say...
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What can uprated pads for the R32/S3 setup be purchased? Mine should(ha ha) be going on this week, but my workshop is just so busy at the moment to fit it in!
I have changed up because at 300+BHP the standard brakes are just poop! - Just so wooden when braking hard, and I remember my S3 and R32 stopped so much better. I might do one, maybe two track days, and at that point will evaluate whether to upgrade the pads, and fluid. :happy2:
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What can uprated pads for the R32/S3 setup be purchased?
Ferodo DS2500 come in an R32 fitment, as do Pagid RS 4-2 (Blue) and RS-19 (yellow), Carbotech can also do them in any of their compounds (AX6, XP8 etc) but would ideally require a spare set of discs unless you plan on running them for both road and track, Hawk also cover the R32 with their HPS, HP+ ceramic range :happy2:
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What can uprated pads for the R32/S3 setup be purchased? Mine should(ha ha) be going on this week, but my workshop is just so busy at the moment to fit it in!
I have changed up because at 300+BHP the standard brakes are just poop! - Just so wooden when braking hard, and I remember my S3 and R32 stopped so much better. I might do one, maybe two track days, and at that point will evaluate whether to upgrade the pads, and fluid. :happy2:
VWR also do a pad upgrade for the R32/S3. Not cheap though but the ones I had for the GTI caliper were the nuts! :happy2:
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Sorry typo - I meant 'where' can I buy them and which are best for mainly fast road driving, os shall I stick with the standard S3 brakes, as they were fine on my 330BHP S3!
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i reckon if your upgrading to S3 discs now, you may as well get some good pads at the same time.
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Sorry typo - I meant 'where' can I buy them and which are best for mainly fast road driving, os shall I stick with the standard S3 brakes, as they were fine on my 330BHP S3!
Camskill, motorsportworld and most of the Ferodo online dealers can get hold of the DS2500's, APS and Vagtech can get the Pagid Blues and Carbotech Europe will supply the AX6/XP8 etc, as nathan has said VWR can supply a fast road set (project MU related iirc)
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I've been using Carbotech XP8s on the road for the past 6 months and they're absolutely fine as a daily pad. Only buy them though if you have a brand new disc, or it has been re-ground.
They work perfectly on track as you can see from my pic on the previous page, however when I run track tyres or if it is a really warm day, I can fade them with the increased heat. I doubt an S3 caliper/disc combo has the capability for the kind of braking power my Alcons have, so I can't see you ever getting close to fading them.
Pagid blues and VWR pads I'd equally choose, and more flexible in terms of being able to put them on used discs. DS2500s I'd avoid if you're tracking, although an excellent fast road pad. They have a habit of melting, leaving deposits all over the discs and causing vibration if you take them past the point of their heat capability. Other pads just glaze and simply need a cool down and re-bedding.
For my hot days on stickies I use Carbonne Lorraine RC6s. I do not recommend these for a road car, they'll smash your face in and ruin OEM discs in a week.
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DS2500s I'd avoid if you're tracking, although an excellent fast road pad. They have a habit of melting, leaving deposits all over the discs and causing vibration if you take them past the point of their heat capability. Other pads just glaze and simply need a cool down and re-bedding.
....Interestingly, AP Racing now supply their own pads instead of DS2500's in their brake kits. For my style of driving I've been very happy with my DS2500's but will try the AP pads next time.
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Oh dear...I got the DS2500 pads under the recommendation they were good for track day use. Are they pretty bad, what alternative would you suggest tony?
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They'l be fine Mojo, just don't push too hard - I say use them and see how you get on, if you feel them getting a bit long in the pedal, do a cool down lap and give them a little rest... they only knacker if you keep pushing past that and cook them.
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I'm running Zero Sixty grooved and dotted discs with Hawk HPS pads all round on the standard calipers, BIG improvement over stock without shelling out for BBK, although for the price of the discs and pads and fitting (unless you do them yourself) you could probably get a second hand set of R32/Leon/S3 brakes without the fitting costs!