MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Matto on February 09, 2017, 08:36:05 pm
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Evening all. Just wanting to pick your brains. For a while now I have been aware that the car doesn't seem to handle like it used to. I put this down to worn standard dampers which were replaced with VWR items which improved the ride quality somewhat but were not night and day. So a little back ground on the setup:
Tyres - Michelin PSS (Summers) Nokian WR A3 (Winters)
Suspension - VWR dampers with H&R lowering springs
SALK
Whiteline RARB on stiffest setting.
I know people speak highly of the PSS's but I think they are average at best. Always wanting to push on in the corners and straight line grip in non-existent. I initially put this down to the worn dampers but once replaced there didn't seem much change. Winters are worse and understeers like a pig.
Tyre pressures are fine as is the alignment so just thought I would ask the question to see what people on here came up with.
Cheers
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Is the alignment definitely right? Where was it done, and on what equipment? How long ago was it done, and has anything been fitted/replaced under there since?
How much torque are you running? And is it a big lump of it at 3-3.5k, or a smoother curve? Do you have a graph of your current map?
I personally found PSS were excellent in the bends. The car still behaved like a front driver should, but they reduced understeer massively over the Kumhos that were on the previous wheels. Fantastic tyres.
I did find they'd struggle with straight line grip once they were down close to 3mm or so. Replacing them with new PS4s improved that considerably. I'm running 350lb/ft+ and still get a bit of slip in 3rd at full throttle around peak torque, but only really if it's wet or colder than around 7-8 degrees.
I won't even entertain the idea of winter tyres when in all conditions except near enough freezing a good summer tyre like the PS4 outperforms them by miles.
Last possibility... Do you think the car might ever have been in a bump?
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TBH. I think the h&r springs are dog dirt. Put some coilovers on it and it will sort it.
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Maybe adjust the roll bar setting from stiffest setting?.
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TBH. I think the h&r springs are dog dirt. Put some coilovers on it and it will sort it.
Do elaborate, Rich. I'm on H&R springs and weighing up going for coilovers soon.
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Maybe adjust the roll bar setting from stiffest setting?.
If anything, reducing the rear roll bar stiffness would increase understeer even more. Stiff rear = more oversteer... theoretically.
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I know people speak highly of the PSS's but I think they are average at best. Always wanting to push on in the corners and straight line grip in non-existent. I initially put this down to the worn dampers but once replaced there didn't seem much change. Winters are worse and understeers like a pig.
That is just how Golfs are. Every MK of Golf I've owned understeers. All FWD cars do, and so do the Haldex cars, even worse in fact. Seems to me you are expecting something from the car it can't deliver. Having said that, extreme traction issues and / or push on understeer that occurs too easily usually always points to bad geometry. And you can't expect summer levels of grip right now, either.
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TBH. I think the h&r springs are dog dirt. Put some coilovers on it and it will sort it.
Do elaborate, Rich. I'm on H&R springs and weighing up going for coilovers soon.
Night and day handling wise. I never felt that confident on the h&r springs. Seemed to be too unsettled in the bends. The PSS10s are just better. Ok the ride is hard and it's a bit annoying on motorways but once you start pushing the car, they come into their own.
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TBH. I think the h&r springs are dog dirt. Put some coilovers on it and it will sort it.
Do elaborate, Rich. I'm on H&R springs and weighing up going for coilovers soon.
Night and day handling wise. I never felt that confident on the h&r springs. Seemed to be too unsettled in the bends. The PSS10s are just better. Ok the ride is hard and it's a bit annoying on motorways but once you start pushing the car, they come into their own.
Cheers. I think coilovers are inevitable for me at some point.
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TBH. I think the h&r springs are dog dirt. Put some coilovers on it and it will sort it.
Do elaborate, Rich. I'm on H&R springs and weighing up going for coilovers soon.
Night and day handling wise. I never felt that confident on the h&r springs. Seemed to be too unsettled in the bends. The PSS10s are just better. Ok the ride is hard and it's a bit annoying on motorways but once you start pushing the car, they come into their own.
Cheers. I think coilovers are inevitable for me at some point.
To be fair, stiffer springs with OEM dampers never was a good solution in the first place, but it suited peoples budgets a lot better. It's why the car feels choppy and unsettled when pushed. GOOD coilovers and GOOD fixed height kits will always work better.
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Thanks for the replies so far. Will jump back on here with a proper reply once I'm home from work and can get on the laptop :happy2:
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Maybe adjust the roll bar setting from stiffest setting?.
If anything, reducing the rear roll bar stiffness would increase understeer even more. Stiff rear = more oversteer... theoretically.
No I mean adjust the setting to the softer one may help?.
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Maybe adjust the roll bar setting from stiffest setting?.
If anything, reducing the rear roll bar stiffness would increase understeer even more. Stiff rear = more oversteer... theoretically.
No I mean adjust the setting to the softer one may help?.
Like I said, reducing the stiffness of a rear bar will not reduce understeer. It will increase it.
Soft rear = understeer
Hard rear = oversteer
OP is complaining of understeer. So making the rear softer won't help.
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Be careful with just an uprated rear ARB. They do improve turn-in, which gives the impression of increasing the understeer threshold, but I had a couple of 180 pirouettes on wet roundabouts years ago, at embarrassingly slow speeds :grin:
That's why they are sold as matched pairs :smiley:
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I'd really consider changing the tyres. I'm having similar issues with my C63. Currently running pilot super sports. Its a soft tyre so allows a lot of flex when cornering and traction isn't great. Previously I was running conti 5's which were great but were noisy and needed replaced.
A few owners on the merc forum have also had similar issues with pilot super sports yet some are fine with them.
I'm running pilot sport 2 or 3's on my Gti and it handles really well. Think I'll go conti 5 or eagle F1 next or maybe even uniroyal rain sport
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Maybe adjust the roll bar setting from stiffest setting?.
If anything, reducing the rear roll bar stiffness would increase understeer even more. Stiff rear = more oversteer... theoretically.
No I mean adjust the setting to the softer one may help?.
Like I said, reducing the stiffness of a rear bar will not reduce understeer. It will increase it.
Soft rear = understeer
Hard rear = oversteer
OP is complaining of understeer. So making the rear softer won't help.
right so there's no in between lol
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I'd really consider changing the tyres. I'm having similar issues with my C63. Currently running pilot super sports. Its a soft tyre so allows a lot of flex when cornering and traction isn't great. Previously I was running conti 5's which were great but were noisy and needed replaced.
A few owners on the merc forum have also had similar issues with pilot super sports yet some are fine with them.
I'm running pilot sport 2 or 3's on my Gti and it handles really well. Think I'll go conti 5 or eagle F1 next or maybe even uniroyal rain sport
It wont be the tyres... plenty of folk including myself have ran MPSS on the mk5 and found them to be excellent.
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Is the alignment definitely right? Where was it done, and on what equipment? How long ago was it done, and has anything been fitted/replaced under there since?
How much torque are you running? And is it a big lump of it at 3-3.5k, or a smoother curve? Do you have a graph of your current map?
I personally found PSS were excellent in the bends. The car still behaved like a front driver should, but they reduced understeer massively over the Kumhos that were on the previous wheels. Fantastic tyres.
I did find they'd struggle with straight line grip once they were down close to 3mm or so. Replacing them with new PS4s improved that considerably. I'm running 350lb/ft+ and still get a bit of slip in 3rd at full throttle around peak torque, but only really if it's wet or colder than around 7-8 degrees.
I won't even entertain the idea of winter tyres when in all conditions except near enough freezing a good summer tyre like the PS4 outperforms them by miles.
Last possibility... Do you think the car might ever have been in a bump?
Right so to tie up some loose ends. It hasn't been aligned for a while BUT I had it checked when the MPSS's were fitted, last year some time I think. I took with me the print out from when Alex @ AKS set it up upon H&R spring install. My mate that checked it said it was a little bit off the previous alignment but not worth messing with as it was not much different.
I am running around 350 torques but the curve is relatively smooth.
Car has never had a bump to my knowledge. I was the second owner at 10K miles.
The only other decent tyres I have had while owning the car are Hankook Ventus V12's. Now these were amazing when new with H&R's and standard dampers. Coilovers are not a option as I have no plans on keeping the car no longer than 2 years hopefully.
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Maybe adjust the roll bar setting from stiffest setting?.
If anything, reducing the rear roll bar stiffness would increase understeer even more. Stiff rear = more oversteer... theoretically.
No I mean adjust the setting to the softer one may help?.
Like I said, reducing the stiffness of a rear bar will not reduce understeer. It will increase it.
Soft rear = understeer
Hard rear = oversteer
OP is complaining of understeer. So making the rear softer won't help.
right so there's no in between lol
The inbetween is the settings on the front and rear bar to get the best handling
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@Matto If I was in your boots I'd try and get booked in with Alex again. Explain the situation, and let him have the car for a few days if he needs it. He might be able to identify the cause on the ramp or by having a drive.
As he's done work for you before I'd imagine he'd be happy to investigate it. Nothing really stands out to me as a potential major issue from what you've said. Things are often made clearer once the car is up in the air though.
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I guess some cars don't get on with some tyres. It's generally why OEMs fit a specific tyre at the factory, having done shed loads of testing. They put the cars through things 95% of customers never would.
Pilot Sports have always worked well for me on VWs, especially the Super Sport. Try the new PS4 S next time. It's supposed to be great :smiley:
350lbft in a FWD car is always going to be a challenge in the wet. I just wish the MK5 had EDL that worked above 25mph and we wouldn't have all these traction issues, or need a diff.
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Matto,
In my opinion your setup should be a rewarding drive. All I think you need to do is fit the subframe locking kit from 034Motorsport, got mine from Awesome, it's an amazing mod.
Read the sales blurb, it does exactly what it says on the tin, chassis comes alive.
Tip....as soon as it's fitted go for a fresh alignment.
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It was down there a few weeks ago to have the dampers fitted so was up in the air. Was also taken out for a test drive and nothing was mentioned about how it handled etc. Unfortuneatly I am unable to leave the car there as it is my only form of transport, plus it is 1hr 45mins away so can't just nip by.
The reason I tried them as a lot of people got on with them on here so thought they were worth a go.
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Matto,
In my opinion your setup should be a rewarding drive. All I think you need to do is fit the subframe locking kit from 034Motorsport, got mine from Awesome, it's an amazing mod.
Read the sales blurb, it does exactly what it says on the tin, chassis comes alive.
Tip....as soon as it's fitted go for a fresh alignment.
The locking kit does nothing in terms of handling.
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It was down there a few weeks ago to have the dampers fitted so was up in the air. Was also taken out for a test drive and nothing was mentioned about how it handled etc. Unfortuneatly I am unable to leave the car there as it is my only form of transport, plus it is 1hr 45mins away so can't just nip by.
The reason I tried them as a lot of people got on with them on here so thought they were worth a go.
Are there any forum members nearby who you wouldn't mind having a drive?
I think if you can get some second opinions on how it drives you might get some insight into it.
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Rich83,
Going from a subframe with movement to a subframe without movement will improve the handling.
I definitely felt an improvement after fitting :happy2:
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Rich83,
"This kit includes 12 stainless steel subframe locating collars and 6 new bolts, and can be installed in approximately one hour for a more rigid chassis and improved handling performance."
Honestly, it works :driver:
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Unless you are getting huge amounts of movement it won't help at all.
In mattos case it won't make a blind bit of difference.
I've got it on mine and yes it stopped most of the subframe noise but didn't do anything for the handling.
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Rich83,
Fair comment.
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Maybe adjust the roll bar setting from stiffest setting?.
If anything, reducing the rear roll bar stiffness would increase understeer even more. Stiff rear = more oversteer... theoretically.
No I mean adjust the setting to the softer one may help?.
Like I said, reducing the stiffness of a rear bar will not reduce understeer. It will increase it.
Soft rear = understeer
Hard rear = oversteer
OP is complaining of understeer. So making the rear softer won't help.
right so there's no in between lol
The inbetween is the settings on the front and rear bar to get the best handling
oops still haven't looked at my H&R properly :signLOL: