MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: MikeBee on April 07, 2017, 06:08:58 am

Title: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: MikeBee on April 07, 2017, 06:08:58 am
Hi all,

I'm trying to debug a flat spot on my ED30. Basically from 3.5k rpm to 5k rpm there's a lack of torque.

Logged data from some 3rd gear pulls in VCDS shows slightly low MAF values at the top end (peak 265 g/s) but the thing that looks wrong is that during the area that feels low in torque while I am at 100% pedal position I don't get 100% throttle valve angle. It drops to around 40% suddenly and only after 4.5k rpm is starts to come back up. Even above 5k rpm it still only ever gets to just over 90%.

The whole time the fuel rail pressure is 110bar and the fuel pressure a solid 4.5bar. Boost target tracks measured boost nicely too. I've also fitted a brand new G DV recently, but not checked the PCV or cleaned the MAF so these are on my list to look at today.

Is the throttle mapping behaviour normal?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: jhook661 on April 07, 2017, 06:17:56 am
Hi mike what's the spec and who's mapped the car ?
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: MikeBee on April 07, 2017, 06:36:23 am
Completely stock in terms of spec.

The only smell is the flash counter shows 1 but afaik it's never been mapped...
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: Tfsi_Mike on April 07, 2017, 07:02:48 am
Completely stock in terms of spec.

The only smell is the flash counter shows 1 but afaik it's never been mapped...

Could be a dealer oem update at a service?
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: MikeBee on April 07, 2017, 07:05:52 am
Yeah it's got a fairly full VW service history (up to Nov last year) so it could be.

I think peak air mass flow would be higher if it had been remapped. The value of 265 if anything is a bit lower than stock!
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: MikeBee on April 07, 2017, 07:29:59 am
Sorry ignore me I'm being an idiot. It's 165 g/s peak MAF value.
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: Tfsi_Mike on April 07, 2017, 07:38:01 am

Yeah, was about to say. That's a good figure! Haha
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: Dan_FR on April 07, 2017, 07:38:17 am
*edit* Ok... 165G/s is a little low for an Ed30, so something isnt right. Take a look at the APR logging guide, get them done and shared on here: http://www.goapr.co.uk/support/datalogging.php
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: MikeBee on April 07, 2017, 07:53:46 am
*edit* Ok... 165G/s is a little low for an Ed30, so something isnt right. Take a look at the APR logging guide, get them done and shared on here: http://www.goapr.co.uk/support/datalogging.php

Thanks, yeah that's what I followed to get the numbers. Glad to know I'm on the right page  :happy2:

Not sure the best way to post up the log, but below is the most consistent of the four pulls I did. The odd looking part is highlighted in green.

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F45naLyr.png&hash=36cae8abe1bbc8234f22100db8b31220b91e5b55)
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: pudding on April 07, 2017, 09:51:37 am
TC closing the throttle to control wheel spin?

Full throttle pulls should be done in 4th really as it's a 1:1 ratio, therefore the engine is doing all the work.

Everything looks normal there apart from Engine load not meeting the target.

ECU flash count should be zero on a totally standard car.  I don't think there were any updates for UK cars.
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: MikeBee on April 07, 2017, 11:24:20 am
Cool thanks.

There's not enough torque for the TC to come in although I can repeat with it turned off. Good shout.

If the flash counter should be zero then probably just a terribly done tune!
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: Dan_FR on April 07, 2017, 12:23:25 pm
Doubt its a tune as such, anyone with the tools to flash a map would be able to increase the load request without touching the fuelling, resulting in more boost and an ECU that can cope with a 25% fuel adjustment to give you a sizeable increase over standard

Could well be the stock mode from software such as Revo or APR that often defaults to a flatter boost profile and has less performance than standard. Found that with my car when I bought it, had Revo software that had been returned to 'standard' performance

Will look at the image above later, can't access any media in work
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: pudding on April 07, 2017, 02:52:35 pm
Cool thanks.

There's not enough torque for the TC to come in although I can repeat with it turned off. Good shout.

If the flash counter should be zero then probably just a terribly done tune!

Had another thought earlier.....it could be a sign of a throttle body on it's way out.  There is info on the net about MK5 throttle / throttle wiring loom issues, and the throttle part no. has changed a couple of times.

It could also be what Dan said.  My Revo map was like that when disconnecting the battery, it reverts to what they call a 'Stock like' map, so isn't the actual VW map, but a copy of it.  Maybe something in their version of it isn't quite right but a standard map felt better and more consistent to me.
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: MikeBee on April 08, 2017, 05:29:16 am
Cool thanks everyone, this is really useful.

I will keep investigating!
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: MikeBee on April 09, 2017, 06:49:45 pm
I may have found the issue while cleaning the MAF sensor and checking the PCV (which was fine).

The seal between the MAF sensor housing and the turbo inlet hose was pinched and not sealing properly, giving an air leak after the MAF sensor.

I've sealed it correctly now, but the seal itself is stretched and could do with replacing. Anyone know the exact part number?

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FV6avOl3.jpg&hash=403503007684635c2680bb7b7365b6ed49a001f0)
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: pudding on April 10, 2017, 10:13:42 am
Good spot!  I'm sure someone mentioned recently you can only get that O ring as part of the whole intake pipe assembly.

Best bet is remove the O ring, measure it, and see if ebay have something that matches it.
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: MikeBee on April 10, 2017, 10:35:57 am
Thanks, that's a good idea.

It would explain why I couldn't find the part number of the o-ring on it's own! To be fair the turbo inlet itself could do with replacing as one of the retainers for the metal fastening clips has been broken in the past.
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: MikeBee on April 11, 2017, 11:09:31 am
Okay so the flat spot has gone but I still have poor fuel economy and it feels down on power. (I am used to a 380bhp Evo)

I suspect it's got a remap on it but left in 'stock' mode so will do some more data logging and diagnosis.

Thank you to everyone for their help so far!
Title: Re: Throttle Valve Angle vs Pedal
Post by: pudding on April 11, 2017, 11:49:50 am
Sounds like it.  PM Alex Kerr at AKS Tuning, or ring him.  He's a Revo dealer and can tell you if it's ever been Revo'd at least.

If it's Revo'd, you can buy an SPS Switch and restore the remapped settings I believe.  Not sure why Revo revert the map back to a detuned version if the battery is pulled.  They say it's something to do with how MED9 ECUs handle it's memory, but other tuners don't seem to encounter this issue.