MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: harveym3 on January 18, 2018, 10:17:59 pm
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Hi all I'm doing a ko4 conversion and was wondering what is the highest power and torque made on a standerd ko4 turbo ??
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400 + 420ft lb but not every tfsi can achieve this safely. Ask AKS or R Tech
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..... and all depends on what dyno being used . They can vary quite a bit .
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Im currently half way through. 2008 BWA DSG, 2+ hardware. Im on a base map at the moment from R-tech, will be going back for the full custom mapping once other little niggles have been sorted. Ill be hoping for 350 / 350 ftlb. Nikki has tuned BWA engines to over 400 hp/ftlb - but it really is a ticking time bomb. Torque should be capped as that is what kills the rods NOT the peak hp figure.
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..... and all depends on what dyno being used . They can vary quite a bit .
This.
400hp with some creative coast down calculations, or 350hp measured properly on an industry standard bench tester.
The trouble is, people who have spent £1000s on hardware and software can't handle the truth. And software sellers don't want to tell you the truth either :grin: Even OEMs do it. They quote PS because it's a much bigger number than KW.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fconcentuswealth.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FJackNicholson.jpg&hash=848dc1ca800af2ee2173945754e63d3c1b026553)
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Hitting 400 bhp imho isn't a safe way to play it if you're looking for numbers as in the end you'll probably end up with a rod popping up to say ello mate how's you been, long time no see :grin: or you'll have a massive power band and lots of fun for years to come, either way I would be worried about it everyday :popcornsoda:
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400hp with some creative coast down calculations, or 350hp measured properly on an industry standard bench tester.
...Unless a good, tfsi knowledgeable tuner tunes it to 400bhp. Then it will be 400bhp on the bench tester.
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Thats cool I'm just asking as mine will be goings on the rollers soon and I'd like to see how well it dose . I've done a few new bits that I've not seen done so it could all go tits up :laugh:
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If you want maximum power you may need to replace the lpfp as a member on fb has done to achieve higher numbers :happy2:
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Thats cool I'm just asking as mine will be goings on the rollers soon and I'd like to see how well it dose . I've done a few new bits that I've not seen done so it could all go tits up :laugh:
Go on...(!)
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Its mainly breathing upgrade I'll let you know more when it's finished I need a 3 bar map senser and a 200 bar fuel pressure senser but in still trying to sorce them .
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038 906 051 C- 3 bar map sensor
https://www.akstuning.co.uk/engine-components/375-fuel-pressure-sensor-for-20-tsi-and-fsi.html (https://www.akstuning.co.uk/engine-components/375-fuel-pressure-sensor-for-20-tsi-and-fsi.html)
done
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400hp with some creative coast down calculations, or 350hp measured properly on an industry standard bench tester.
...Unless a good, tfsi knowledgeable tuner tunes it to 400bhp. Then it will be 400bhp on the bench tester.
Would you put a tenner on that? I can guarantee an engine showing 400hp on a rolling road would not measure even close to that on VW's factory bench tester.
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400hp with some creative coast down calculations, or 350hp measured properly on an industry standard bench tester.
...Unless a good, tfsi knowledgeable tuner tunes it to 400bhp. Then it will be 400bhp on the bench tester.
Would you put a tenner on that? I can guarantee an engine showing 400hp on a rolling road would not measure even close to that on VW's factory bench tester.
Fair play. Not going to disagree - just didnt know whether you were including claims of 400 by good tuners in the statement. So presumably your day in day out stage 2+ 350/350 (not pushed to the absolute limit) is actually nowhere near that either?
Also that statement leads to the assumption that the inaccuracy is exponential as you go up, as stock cars on the dyno make stock figures.
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I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.
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I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.
I havent seen many forge for 350/350. I personally think a K04 can and has produced 400/400+ figures. I'd forge for that.
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I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.
I havent seen many forge for 350/350. I personally think a K04 can and has produced 400/400+ figures. I'd forge for that.
350/350 with caped low range torque won't need forging, yeah. Just for top numbers the forged internals would be very advisable. :smiley:
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400hp with some creative coast down calculations, or 350hp measured properly on an industry standard bench tester.
...Unless a good, tfsi knowledgeable tuner tunes it to 400bhp. Then it will be 400bhp on the bench tester.
Would you put a tenner on that? I can guarantee an engine showing 400hp on a rolling road would not measure even close to that on VW's factory bench tester.
Fair play. Not going to disagree - just didnt know whether you were including claims of 400 by good tuners in the statement. So presumably your day in day out stage 2+ 350/350 (not pushed to the absolute limit) is actually nowhere near that either?
Also that statement leads to the assumption that the inaccuracy is exponential as you go up, as stock cars on the dyno make stock figures.
I just go by science and experience mate. It's not an attempt to discredit tuners. You can only do so much with the standard engine configuration.
To make a genuine 400hp at the standard rev limit, you would have to shove about 2.4-2.6 bar of boost into it from a KO4 sized turbo. A KO4 cannot make 2.6 bar for long without grenading itself. Even pushing it to the usual 1.8 - 2 bar Stage 2+ pressure levels, it's waaaaaaay out of it's efficiency zone and merely super heating the intercooler. Hence why even with an S3 intercooler, after 4 hard WOT pulls the timing starts getting backed off. It's not a crap intercooler, it's the turbo. It's too small.
A genuine 400hp might be achievable if you hogged out the head ports, ported the manifolds, fitted bigger valves, wilder cams and revved it to 8000rpm.....but even then, the more times you run it flat out, the power will start to reduce. And the balancer shafts will sh*t themselves.
Consistency is the name of the game, not an arbitrary peak number which is entirely questionable in the first place.
400hp with a big turbo, then absolutely. With a K04, no way.
Direct injection does have some power advantages, but not to THAT degree. Not even the Focus RS can comfortably do 400hp with it's 300cc bigger engine, and they are cracking blocks and blowing gaskets at standard power, let alone tuned, so you have to use common sense really. VW did not build 400hp worth of headroom into the EA113. There is zero financial incentive for them to over build and engine to that degree. I mean, look what they did to the BYD/S3 engine to run just 30-60hp more than the AXX. That's a lot of mechanical changes for a small increase.
350 is a sensible and realistic expectation from a KO4 with all the bolt ons running 2 bar peak, holding 1.5. You could potentially get a moment of greatness with a whopping great 2.2-2.3 bar 400lbft boost spike, but as you say, that amount of cylinder pressure can and does indeed smash people's pistons. Loads of evidence of that on the facebook group.
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I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.
I havent seen many forge for 350/350. I personally think a K04 can and has produced 400/400+ figures. I'd forge for that.
350/350 with caped low range torque won't need forging, yeah. Just for top numbers the forged internals would be very advisable. :smiley:
You just agreed top numbers were 350/350 for a k04? :laugh:
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I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.
I havent seen many forge for 350/350. I personally think a K04 can and has produced 400/400+ figures. I'd forge for that.
350/350 with caped low range torque won't need forging, yeah. Just for top numbers the forged internals would be very advisable. :smiley:
You just agreed top numbers were 350/350 for a k04? :laugh:
No, I agreed that for those 350/350 you won't need to forge the internals. For me those aren't the top numbers for a K04. There's always WMI to increase timing advance, for example. Better fuels, etc.
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400hp with some creative coast down calculations, or 350hp measured properly on an industry standard bench tester.
...Unless a good, tfsi knowledgeable tuner tunes it to 400bhp. Then it will be 400bhp on the bench tester.
Would you put a tenner on that? I can guarantee an engine showing 400hp on a rolling road would not measure even close to that on VW's factory bench tester.
Fair play. Not going to disagree - just didnt know whether you were including claims of 400 by good tuners in the statement. So presumably your day in day out stage 2+ 350/350 (not pushed to the absolute limit) is actually nowhere near that either?
Also that statement leads to the assumption that the inaccuracy is exponential as you go up, as stock cars on the dyno make stock figures.
I just go by science and experience mate. It's not an attempt to discredit tuners. You can only do so much with the standard engine configuration.
To make a genuine 400hp at the standard rev limit, you would have to shove about 2.4-2.6 bar of boost into it from a KO4 sized turbo. A KO4 cannot make 2.6 bar for long without grenading itself. Even pushing it to the usual 1.8 - 2 bar Stage 2+ pressure levels, it's waaaaaaay out of it's efficiency zone and merely super heating the intercooler. Hence why even with an S3 intercooler, after 4 hard WOT pulls the timing starts getting backed off. It's not a crap intercooler, it's the turbo. It's too small.
A genuine 400hp might be achievable if you hogged out the head ports, ported the manifolds, fitted bigger valves, wilder cams and revved it to 8000rpm.....but even then, the more times you run it flat out, the power will start to reduce. And the balancer shafts will sh*t themselves.
Consistency is the name of the game, not an arbitrary peak number which is entirely questionable in the first place.
400hp with a big turbo, then absolutely. With a K04, no way.
Direct injection does have some power advantages, but not to THAT degree. Not even the Focus RS can comfortably do 400hp with it's 300cc bigger engine, and they are cracking blocks and blowing gaskets at standard power, let alone tuned, so you have to use common sense really. VW did not build 400hp worth of headroom into the EA113. There is zero financial incentive for them to over build and engine to that degree. I mean, look what they did to the BYD/S3 engine to run just 30-60hp more than the AXX. That's a lot of mechanical changes for a small increase.
350 is a sensible and realistic expectation from a KO4 with all the bolt ons running 2 bar peak, holding 1.5. You could potentially get a moment of greatness with a whopping great 2.2-2.3 bar 400lbft boost spike, but as you say, that amount of cylinder pressure can and does indeed smash people's pistons. Loads of evidence of that on the facebook group.
You know a hell of a lot more about this then me, im purely going on what i've seen in the past. If Niki says X is X, I tend to blindly believe him. Perhaps I misinterpreted/ not fully understood the claims. I know you're not trying to discredit any tuners - didn't mean to imply that. Will have a good read through of above reply at lunch :happy2:
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I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.
I havent seen many forge for 350/350. I personally think a K04 can and has produced 400/400+ figures. I'd forge for that.
350/350 with caped low range torque won't need forging, yeah. Just for top numbers the forged internals would be very advisable. :smiley:
You just agreed top numbers were 350/350 for a k04? :laugh:
No, I agreed that for those 350/350 you won't need to forge the internals. For me those aren't the top numbers for a K04. There's always WMI to increase timing advance.
Oh, I thought you were agreeing here (bold) that a k04 cant make 400bhp. What were you agreeing with?
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I like the topic and I agree with Pudding. Forge the BWA if you want to reach top numbers with a K04.
I havent seen many forge for 350/350. I personally think a K04 can and has produced 400/400+ figures. I'd forge for that.
350/350 with caped low range torque won't need forging, yeah. Just for top numbers the forged internals would be very advisable. :smiley:
You just agreed top numbers were 350/350 for a k04? :laugh:
No, I agreed that for those 350/350 you won't need to forge the internals. For me those aren't the top numbers for a K04. There's always WMI to increase timing advance.
Oh, I thought you were agreeing here (bold) that a k04 cant make 400bhp. What were you agreeing with?
I agree with Pudding about claimed numbers from some dyno benches. I'd trust more benches that work on the inertia principle.
I agree that a K04 can reach 380 bhp with a 99 octane fuel and a good engine setup. You can get more not by adding boost but from timing advance.
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You can work out the maximum possible engine power from a particular configuration with math equations and unquestionable physics.......if you have access to the relevant data......which we don't, sadly.
As above, 400hp (on a rolling road, so 370-380 in reality) could be tickled out of the engine with extended rev limiters, race gas, straight thru exhaust and intake / turbo manifold work.
Any claims of a 400+hp KO4 with just intake, exhaust and intercooler I would take with a healthy pinch of salt.
Put 10 dyno operators / tuners in a room and they will all say theirs is the best and most accurate. People selling you something rely on marketing, and to draw people in with marketing, you need big numbers, but being the unregulated industry that it is, they are not obliged to prove unequivocally that 400hp really is 400hp. The whole motor industry is built on lies and false promises to one degree or another.
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Very close
(https://preview.ibb.co/nbn9mw/IMG_5835.png) (https://ibb.co/k3CaRw)
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^ but you put the same car on a different dyno and you might get a result 50 bhp less !
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^ but you put the same car on a different dyno and you might get a result 50 bhp less !
Agreed, but thats not what we're debating. Atleast I hope that's not what we're debating :laugh:
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I’m not out to discredit anyone ..... but from my short time around here R/tech are getting a considerable better results than anything else I’ve seen . Not to say they are not genuine ... but would love to get a comparison of a r-tech powered car on a few other dynos to see comparisons. Again all I’ve heard from and about r-tech have been very good and if they were closer I’d have a map off them .
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^ but you put the same car on a different dyno and you might get a result 50 bhp less !
Agreed, but thats not what we're debating. Atleast I hope that's not what we're debating :laugh:
I guess we are debating what is physically possible, and measurement discrepancies in general. Questioning one particular tuner's results just gets too messy on forums :grin: And then the tuners themselves jump in and start getting defensive, because as paying customers, how dare we have an opinion, right?
The error margin on rolling roads is huge, both across dyno manufacturers and dyno operators, which is why OEMs don't use them. I for one believe the OEM way more than I do anyone in the aftermarket.
So, let's just say VAG applied 1.2 bar to a naturally aspirated CDL engine to extract 261 PS DIN certified, how likely is it that a further 140PS can be found from adding another 0.8 bar? Not very.
If one tuner is knocking out considerably more power than their rivals, Occam's Razor has to be applied. Which is more likely - Tuner A can defy physics, or their dyno is optimistic?
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^ but you put the same car on a different dyno and you might get a result 50 bhp less !
Correct :happy2:
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My K04 numbers on a Dyno-Jet: 350 bhp and 354 lb*ft and boosting 27 psi and a 3 bar MAP sensor. I have swapped back to my original tune and tuner, because had to rebuild my engine with that tune, and with the oem 2.55 bar MAP sensor now get 330 BHP and 364 lb*ft at 25 psi and does a better 1/4 et and trap.
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My K04 numbers on a Dyno-Jet: 350 bhp and 354 lb*ft and boosting 27 psi and a 3 bar MAP sensor. I have swapped back to my original tune and tuner, because had to rebuild my engine with that tune, and with the oem 2.55 bar MAP sensor now get 330 BHP and 364 lb*ft at 25 psi and does a better 1/4 et and trap.
With you being in America, is that at the tire or crank? I know the US tuning scene favors WHP over crank power, but your numbers are what I'd expect to see at the crank for that boost pressure :smiley:
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Well I've put my Edition on Unicorn motors dyno for 2+ mapping. I did ask for a soft and gentle map - dont want to be breaking anything too soon and Rick told me that the brand new tyres I was using would cause me to lose power as well.
Made 340bhp and 375ft/lb which I was initially disappointed with until I drove it, cant say I need any more power at all, getting it down from 1-3rd gear is a challenge even in the dry and with all the suspension mods done. Ive also heard that its considered quite a harsh dyno comparatively. I know at end of the day numbers mean everything to some people but I do plan to head to R-tech at some point and take advantage of their injector/walnut blast cleaning so will get it on their dyno and see what it makes.
As a note I've run it next to my friends Ed30 which is 377/402 and it held its own just fine so numbers do vary from one dyno to another (I did have ALK and he didnt plus I'm DSG and he isnt so that might answer it.)
For comparison I'm running
Forge twintake (considered restrictive on ko4)
Vis HPFP - no problems
Airtec stg 1 IC (slightly better than s3 apparently)
BCS full tBE with sports cat - could get a bit more with a decat
So I could upgrade a cpl of mods (namely intake and run a second IC or a bigger one) and I need to get a FPRV put in when I get manifold cleaned. Car is on 130k miles so will undoubtedly benefit from carbon cleaning but the mileage is also why I'm not pushing like crazy. Rick did say that fixing those mods would improve my numbers but I might not notice a vast difference on everyday use.
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My K04 numbers on a Dyno-Jet: 350 bhp and 354 lb*ft and boosting 27 psi and a 3 bar MAP sensor. I have swapped back to my original tune and tuner, because had to rebuild my engine with that tune, and with the oem 2.55 bar MAP sensor now get 330 BHP and 364 lb*ft at 25 psi and does a better 1/4 et and trap.
With you being in America, is that at the tire or crank? I know the US tuning scene favors WHP over crank power, but your numbers are what I'd expect to see at the crank for that boost pressure :smiley:
Crank HP, yes. :happy2:
My WHP was 300 to 315 with each tune on the dyno. Best figure for crank HP I could do was "mass air/0.8"...268 g/s with one and 281 g/s with the other. So, that Dyno-Jet must've been a 10% reduction from HP to WHP. This is off-the-shelf GIAC(300whp) and DriverMotorsport(315whp) K04 tunes without additives of any sort.
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Well I've put my Edition on Unicorn motors dyno for 2+ mapping. I did ask for a soft and gentle map - dont want to be breaking anything too soon and Rick told me that the brand new tyres I was using would cause me to lose power as well.
Made 340bhp and 375ft/lb which I was initially disappointed with until I drove it, cant say I need any more power at all, getting it down from 1-3rd gear is a challenge even in the dry and with all the suspension mods done. Ive also heard that its considered quite a harsh dyno comparatively. I know at end of the day numbers mean everything to some people but I do plan to head to R-tech at some point and take advantage of their injector/walnut blast cleaning so will get it on their dyno and see what it makes.
As a note I've run it next to my friends Ed30 which is 377/402 and it held its own just fine so numbers do vary from one dyno to another (I did have ALK and he didnt plus I'm DSG and he isnt so that might answer it.)
For comparison I'm running
Forge twintake (considered restrictive on ko4)
Vis HPFP - no problems
Airtec stg 1 IC (slightly better than s3 apparently)
BCS full tBE with sports cat - could get a bit more with a decat
So I could upgrade a cpl of mods (namely intake and run a second IC or a bigger one) and I need to get a FPRV put in when I get manifold cleaned. Car is on 130k miles so will undoubtedly benefit from carbon cleaning but the mileage is also why I'm not pushing like crazy. Rick did say that fixing those mods would improve my numbers but I might not notice a vast difference on everyday use.
That's the thing, the difference between 400hp and 350hp out on the open road is negligible. The tuning industry is very one dimensional and driven by marketing numbers. 350hp is the real stage 2+ number with bolt ons, I think everyone knows that deep down. The figures above that have had pixie dust sprinkled onto the dyno.
The only way to get a real picture is to take one of these 400hp cars and measure it independently on 5 different brand of measuring device. 3 x rolling roads, 1 x hub dyno and 1 x bench dyno. Take the average across the 5. It definitely will not average 400hp, that's for sure! I think the bench dyno would cause some blokes to cry.
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That's the thing, the difference between 400hp and 350hp out on the open road is negligible. The tuning industry is very one dimensional and driven by marketing numbers. 350hp is the real stage 2+ number with bolt ons, I think everyone knows that deep down. The figures above that have had pixie dust sprinkled onto the dyno.
Agreed, as has been suggested throughout the thread :happy2:
So we agree that day in day out 2+ figures of 350 are accurate and relaible, but then, on the same dyno, an exceptional one off, tuned car produces figures of 400, but this figure, on the same dyno - is now all of a sudden not reliable?
In other words
standard 2+ CAR A goes on dyno and produces 350. Everyone happy and reliable
maximum power test CAR B goes on dyno and produces 400. Not reliable?
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You mean if the 400hp car measures 400hp on a different dyno to where it was tuned? Well it would certainly be more credible if the same result is seen twice on 2 different (make) dynos than a one off reading :happy2:
I'm not too concerned with dyno numbers because an average across several of them would level the playing field, I'm just more interested in whether a genuine 400hp is possible or not, from a KO4 engine with the usual bolt ons. It would be nice if it could do it, but I don't think the turbo is anywhere near big enough for it. Other tuners barely manage 400hp with a TTE420, and yet, some tuners are measuring way past 420, into the 440s. That turbo is a fair bit bigger than a KO4. The main problem is getting the exhaust out of the same size housing and manifold volume, so again, there's always questions to be asked when the figures are outside of the realistic expectations.
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You mean if the 400hp car measures 400hp on a different dyno to where it was tuned? Well it would certainly be more credible if the same result is seen twice on 2 different (make) dynos than a one off reading :happy2:
Nope – the same tuner, same dyno.
Tuner X normally produces 350 from a stage 2+ tune with all the hardware. This is the norm – we all agree this a reliable and trustworthy figure.
Tuner X then decides to max the turbo out today with a few little extra tricks and with disregard for engine safety/longeivty, and cracks 400. If the normal 350 was reliable, why is the exceptional 400 not reliable?
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Because it's the same dyno, same operator, same margin for error. Nobody sees the coast down adjustments the operator applies to the figure measured at the roller, which is why the measurement needs to be done on a number of different dynos with different operators, all using exactly the same coast down calcs.
Some assessment into why one car makes 350 and the other 400 would need doing as well :smiley:
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Presumably the operator applies the same adjustments to the roller for each and every dyno run... (?)
If the 400 figure is not true and down to the specific adjustments of the operator - then every reading that dyno takes is also unreliable. Which lead to my question why do stock cars make stock power figures, or why do we trust the normal 350 stage 2+ figure, on the same dyno producing the 400 figure.
Some assessment into why one car makes 350 and the other 400 would need doing as well :smiley:
Because one car is pushed to absolute max, the other is your standard, day in day out tune with regard for engine safety/longevity...
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You key in the barometric pressure and ambient temp for each run......but who's to say some operators don't make the temp -20 C to make the numbers higher? Different wheels, tyres, brakes etc can affect the coast down calcs, as can the gear used for the run.
Plenty of videos on you tube discussing this and how easy it is to manipulate the numbers.
Not all dynos record factory power though. I hear so often of standard ED30s measuring 250-260hp, and that is a clue right there about rolling road accuracy, but again, it's quite easy to dial back a stock over read and dial up a tuned under read to give customers a much bigger before and after difference.
Yes but I don't believe a KO4 is even capable of a genuine 400hp in the first place. Dyno manipulation is a different subject.
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Number chasing...
It's fun to analyse different RR graphs of different setups and learn a bit along the way. But it's really only any use if you can be objective about it, ie comparing graphs from different setups on the same dyno (and to be honest even then there's so much variance in ambient temp and all sorts of things from one day to the next).
Can a k04 TFSI make an indicated 400bhp? Maybe. But it'd have to be done in the knowledge that something will break and it was being done strictly as an experiment for a bit of fun. IIRC a member on here a while ago called James did just this with Mr Gower. I can't remember the figures, but it did make notably more than the usual R-Tech k04 numbers, with a lairy looking torque curve.
Predictably, something broke.
But a reliable 400bhp? No.
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Can a k04 TFSI make an indicated 400bhp? Maybe. But it'd have to be done in the knowledge that something will break and it was being done strictly as an experiment for a bit of fun. IIRC a member on here a while ago called James did just this with Mr Gower. I can't remember the figures, but it did make notably more than the usual R-Tech k04 numbers, with a lairy looking torque curve.
Good to see that I didnt imagine these one-off tests, and am not the only one who's come away under the impression that k04s can crack 400 if you wring its neck
But a reliable 400bhp? No.
Never the question. Purely maximum power of a k04. Posts that allude to the question being about the reliability of the engine at X power will surely confuse the topic. Doesn't matter if it blows a piston up :grin:
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Haha I know it's been 'measured' on that particular dyno a few times, but if you revert back to science for a minute......to make a genuine 400hp, you need around 45lb/min mass flow rate through the engine - airbox inlet to tailpipe. On a modern engine like the EA888 which has variable lift and duration on both cams, you can possibly push that much through with a big enough turbo. Even they max out at 380ish with bolt ons with the IS38 snail.
On the EA113 with only variable timing on just the inlet cam, and a KO4-061 that can only manage 36lb/min mass flow rate. How is 400 possible?
If you push that snail way into Choke, you'll get massive back pressure at the exhaust valves, and 1 of 3 things will happen. You'll bend a rod, break a piston or bend the exhaust valves slightly. I can see that happening pushing for a real 400.
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This is my latest map update. I've changed house, now it's from RPM Engine Power Management based in Italy but it dealers in a few countries. Still a custom tune but from a remote tuner.
(https://i.imgur.com/79uDxuw.jpg)
It was done with BP Ultimate with 98 octanes.
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Nice. Any change in hardware? You were at 340ish before?
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Nice. Any change in hardware? You were at 340ish before?
No hardware changes. Just different boost pressure and fuel injection (much more of both). The real IAT in that bench were around 50ºC. It's not the best vented one but the results at the wheels are identical with the old one.
I was at 346 CV without octane booster and 355 CV with octane booster.
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Haha I know it's been 'measured' on that particular dyno a few times, but if you revert back to science for a minute......to make a genuine 400hp, you need around 45lb/min mass flow rate through the engine - airbox inlet to tailpipe.
You keep saying lets revert back to science and maths, as if you are offering irrefutable calculation and maths when in reality I think you are offering crude and basic maths and presenting it as proof. Im an engineer, so I don’t omit calculation for fun. I may be wrong, but I would have thought the amount of specifics involved with calculating the difference of 50bhp, would be mind boggling (?) If the calcluation really is that simple, and an accurate maximum, minimum, whatever, can be obtained fairly simply from calcuation based purely on the few physical attributes we have, I take it all back and will concede 400bhp is impossbile from a k04 turbo :smiley:
Its for this reason I keep going with testing over calulcation. If you can’t calculate it easily, test it. Which is obviously where the debate lies, the accuracy of testing.
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Well as you are the engineer, why don't you prove 400hp *is* possible then, ffs.
I've not once said I am the all seeing overlord and stated everything as fact. You are just coming out with ridiculous statements like that because you can't come up with a counter argument. I also said I'm basing my opinions on experience and science, the science of engines being able to make a certain amount of power for a given air and fuel input. I don't believe a standard KO4 configuration is capable of 400hp measured on a bench tester to DIN calibration. Prove me wrong.
And yes, the accuracy of testing. Rolling roads are riddled with inaccuracies, that much we all know. What other rolling roads have seen 400hp from a stock KO4 engine?
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Well as you are the engineer, why don't you prove 400hp *is* possible then, ffs.
I 100% knew this was coming :grin:
Clearly stating that proving, or disproving (it really doesnt matter) based purely on calculation is NOT feasible (for me and you). Hence the need for testing...
Seems like its just going to disolve into insult and a personal based arguement, im out.
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..... seems to me you both need to stop flirting and get a room :love:
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i'm just trying to win his approval. Is this not how flirting works?
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i'm just trying to win his approval. Is this not how flirting works?
Well I think that’s how it works ..... I generally just drug them , saves on time :happy2:
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I'm just more interested in whether a genuine 400hp is possible or not, from a KO4 engine with the usual bolt ons. It would be nice if it could do it, but I don't think the turbo is anywhere near big enough for it.
I agree and believe the 350 bhp number is more realistic for a K04...guys over here work very hard at getting to 375/380 bhp (330 to 340 whp) with a K04; adding W/M injection and running E85 in order to accomplish even getting close to 400 bhp with a K04. And yes...even with the TTE420 and BW EFR 6758; people are lucky seeing 400 to 420 bhp (355 to 370 whp).
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Here's what APR's Arin had to say: "Careful comparing US to European figures. Most all European tuners claim crank figures which are calculated using dyno coast down procedures. In some cases we'll see over a 100hp increase using this method, which is insane and inaccurate, thus not comparable to what people measure here in the states." ...on discussion of the same topic of 400 bhp with a K04. http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121909
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I'm happy with 299 WHP and tested in 5th gear the bench measures almost 100 HP of drag. It's less if tested in 4th gear but my wheels kept spinning in the rolls. I need the LSD fitted, I guess...
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I'm happy with 299 WHP and tested in 5th gear the bench measures almost 100 HP of drag. It's less if tested in 4th gear but my wheels kept spinning in the rolls. I need the LSD fitted, I guess...
LSD :confused: ...you and me both :drinking:
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I have one of this lsd things fitted and even with my modest 315bhp it struggles in anything less that nice dry weather
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Haha I know it's been 'measured' on that particular dyno a few times, but if you revert back to science for a minute......to make a genuine 400hp, you need around 45lb/min mass flow rate through the engine - airbox inlet to tailpipe.
You keep saying lets revert back to science and maths, as if you are offering irrefutable calculation and maths when in reality I think you are offering crude and basic maths and presenting it as proof. Im an engineer, so I don’t omit calculation for fun. I may be wrong, but I would have thought the amount of specifics involved with calculating the difference of 50bhp, would be mind boggling (?) If the calcluation really is that simple, and an accurate maximum, minimum, whatever, can be obtained fairly simply from calcuation based purely on the few physical attributes we have, I take it all back and will concede 400bhp is impossbile from a k04 turbo :smiley:
Its for this reason I keep going with testing over calulcation. If you can’t calculate it easily, test it. Which is obviously where the debate lies, the accuracy of testing.
Poke with a stick, poke with a stick, poke with a stick BITE!! That mofo bit me how DARE he!!
WHERE IS THE POPCORN :party:
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Interesting... how did I miss this? :popcornsoda:
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I thought you were just staying clear Dan. I probably would if I could go back :laugh:
Interestingly, topic was brought up on the TFSI tuning page the other day
438bhp 500+ lbft of toqrue measured on Hurdys old stock ed30 engine with a 200 shot of NOS…
Also, some suggested the theoretical limit of the k04 was way under what it produced when tested. All or most of the top TFSI tuners/builders (in the UK atleast) believe 400 is possible from a k04 if the engine is flowing efficiently enough. They dont think the turbo or engine will last forever, but believe its possible.
All for theoretical limits and calculation, but when the tfsi pros have already been there done that, i'll take their word for it.
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I don't get on here much these days... Don't find a lot of time at all at the moment :sad1:
Problems with this are the variables.... aside from individual setups, mods etc. and the occasional freak of nature setup that just makes power for no known reason..... :signLOL:
Longeivity - push it hard, it'll go bang.
Engine compression - higher compression lumps like the BWA can make more power if you can contain the knock and likelihood of terminal piston/rod bending/melting and/or ejecting. Seen a Built (properly - Forged)BWA K04 be pushed to over 400hp after fiddling with knock control just to see what is possible. Meth or race fuel dependant....different ballgame :signLOL: :driver:
Air density (pressure/temperature/IC efficiency) and knock supression/quality of fuel play the next biggest factors in determining any peak value after you have reached the airflow ceiling. Race fuel and/or the help of N2O will surpass the 400hp mark by quite a margin, as measured in the way predominantly used in this country using coastdown measuring etc.
Measuring on a bench is a different ballgame and is just changing the goalposts to be honest. No aftermarket tuner bench tests these for numbers. Then again adding N2O and race fuel is also changing the goalposts.
My two pence :signLOL:
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I was toying with running 75 bhp noz jets in my ko4 gti but how much extra stress would the put on the engine?
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I don't get on here much these days... Don't find a lot of time at all at the moment :sad1:
Problems with this are the variables.... aside from individual setups, mods etc. and the occasional freak of nature setup that just makes power for no known reason..... :signLOL:
Longeivity - push it hard, it'll go bang.
Engine compression - higher compression lumps like the BWA can make more power if you can contain the knock and likelihood of terminal piston/rod bending/melting and/or ejecting. Seen a Built (properly - Forged)BWA K04 be pushed to over 400hp after fiddling with knock control just to see what is possible. Meth or race fuel dependant....different ballgame :signLOL: :driver:
Air density (pressure/temperature/IC efficiency) and knock supression/quality of fuel play the next biggest factors in determining any peak value after you have reached the airflow ceiling. Race fuel and/or the help of N2O will surpass the 400hp mark by quite a margin, as measured in the way predominantly used in this country using coastdown measuring etc.
Measuring on a bench is a different ballgame and is just changing the goalposts to be honest. No aftermarket tuner bench tests these for numbers. Then again adding N2O and race fuel is also changing the goalposts.
My two pence :signLOL:
I think you meant the AXX engine, which has an higher CR. :wink:
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The k03 engines (AXX and BWA) both have higher CR then the k04 based engines, which I think the point was. Although AXX does have higher CR then BWA.
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The k03 engines (AXX and BWA) both have higher CR then the k04 based engines, which I think the point was. Although AXX does have higher CR then BWA.
Right! Thanks for the correction. :happy2: