MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Members Rides => Topic started by: poko on February 26, 2010, 08:55:10 am
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Ok, here we go,
After several years of driving some larger and less sporty cars (my last one is an Audi A6) I have decided that the wife should drive those and I will get myself a new toy.
After some considerations and test driving several cars like the STI , GTI and the S3 the decision has been taken to go for a new Seat Leon Cupra.
but I wanted my new toy to be special, and found a listening ear at the local SEAT distributer. That's why the car was taken with 10 miles on the clock directly to SEAT body shop for a new coat of paint.
once it got there the shop manager and Israeli VAG service manager immediately called me to a meeting , to meet the crazy guy who is going to do a paint job to a brand new car.
2 hours later and after signing a form declaring that I am the insane guy who needs to be committed and it's none of their fault the work began.
a week and a half later and after the arrival of a shipment from Germany of OEM Lamborghini Nero nemesis Matte black color , this is the result :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2FDSCF1533.jpg&hash=81daa158a57a58c7845c34b26a0eaef33b0f6084)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2FDSCF1542.jpg&hash=712af50ebe55bb1948479f41f1a989683eefa65b)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2FDSCF1545.jpg&hash=88b4557257e9364c4424ccb5d4a9f663e5770a2a)
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Ok, now I have got the car.
First drive and the car really don't feel like it has 240bhp. Yes, I am fast, but it is all so linear that it really doesn't feel that way. It is really time to tuning the car.
It all began very modestly, and you can see that in some posts I made some month ago. I really learned what was possible and considered my options and tuning company to go with.
Than, unfortunately, I began talking with Keith from APR and with the local distributer. Those talks were followed by some more talks with Seat motorsport division, KW suspension motorsports division and a few other guys you will learn about in the near future.
After all those talks , I had several more talks , this time with my bank manager , who also advised me to get some pills for my disease and forget about the project , but somehow he was convinced and the madness began.
This is really going to be one of the largest projects you have seen recently and it will be also very interesting since I am going to do it in stages.
The stages concept was conceived in order to really let me appreciate every step of the tuning process and decide for myself if it really improves or degrades.
The ultimate goal is to get a Race car for the road which means I will have loads of power , yes, but I will also care about how it is delivered . Handling and suspension tuning are also major parts of this project and you will soon see some unique stuff.
Ok, the car has already 300 miles on the clock, it is really time to begin.
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Well Poko I'm looking forward to seeing this thread develop! :happy2:
The car is looking very moody so far! Do you have any plans to change the wheels as the silver rims stick out like a sore thumb for me! :smiley:
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Well Poko I'm looking forward to seeing this thread develop! :happy2:
The car is looking very moody so far! Do you have any plans to change the wheels as the silver rims stick out like a sore thumb for me! :smiley:
no plans to change them until monday.
Since the new ones are also being painted , the plans might be non existant even until tuesday or Wednesday.
there are also no plans for new turbos , suspensions and many other things :laugh:
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So without further a due, here is stage 1
For stage 1 I just wanted to see how much can a software really do on those engines.
So a 10 minutes stop at the local APR dealer and Version 2.2 of APR stage 1 software for the S3/ED30 k04 cars is installed.
I then drove the car around 100 miles of to finish the learning phase and off we go to the dyno.
The Dyno I choose to use for this project is one owned by the local Sparco distributer who also prepares all of the rally teams.
The dyno is a Dynapack which measures HP At the wheel and is considered extremely pessimistic. All of the EVO and STI guys are spending their time in the local forums bitching on this dyno and the low numbers it yields.
So, the car goes on the dyno and here are the numbers :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Foriginalecuedit-1.jpg&hash=fb02c516eed7c4a6d872d963c10c61956df220a5)
Since torque is calculated in KG/M in Israel, in conversion to LB/FT it comes to 224 LB/FT.
So around 210 WHP and 224 LB/FT at the flywheel is exactly what the manufacturer prescribed , and estimated drive train loss here is around 12% which also sounds about right.
Ok, now moving on to the APR stage1 Dyno :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fchipedit.jpg&hash=d130b36fabc999e551b66f1e7a11eda99fe31c6d)
We did 6 dyno pulls on this since the numbers are unbelievable.
300.1 WHP and 304 LB/FT of torque
That comes to over 90 WHP and 80 Lb/FT of gain on just software.
completely stock car with just 500 miles on the clock.
Truly unbelievable numbers, and that's on a Dynapack , not some MAHA or a DynoJet.
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Now i would love to do that paint job to my Octy.
How much was the paint. I know your in Israel but it will give me a rough idea.
Looks great in the matt black. Very stealthish
Carl :happy2:
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well comparing israel to uk prices is not really viable.
it was around 2,500 Pounds in work + Metrials.
it is a dfficult paintjob to do.
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Is this the correct name for it?
Lamborghini Nero nemesis Matte black
If so you don't happen to have a part no./workshop code do you so i can enquire about it.
Carl :happy2:
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Lamborghini Nero Nemesis
Color code : Lamborghini 0109
please make sure they use specialty matte lacque and not a reducer.
i worked closely with STANDOX on this.
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Ok will do some enquiries
Cheers
Carl :happy2:
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looking good fella!!
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Paint job is lush mate :congrats: :drool:
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Great work :happy2:
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Looking very nice. Agree with nousey about the rims. Need to be changed.
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Looking good so far!
Get the badge and rims sprayed black. Will look even better then!!
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hello and welcome, very nice and some good info.
personally I would have just had it vinyled matt black, you crazy man :signLOL:
I too have the v2.2 APR stg1 K04 file and its pretty epic compared to earlier versions :drinking:
I think your gain seems a bit excessive but I did see +60 hp gain on an earlier file.
Dont forget your car will also get stronger as its run in :happy2: , so maybe your baseline figures has crept up a bit :wink:
All in all top work though and good luck with the future mods :happy2:
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Looking very nice. Agree with nousey about the rims. Need to be changed.
next week there will be an update on this.
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hello and welcome, very nice and some good info.
personally I would have just had it vinyled matt black, you crazy man :signLOL:
I too have the v2.2 APR stg1 K04 file and its pretty epic compared to earlier versions :drinking:
I think your gain seems a bit excessive but I did see +60 hp gain on an earlier file.
Dont forget your car will also get stronger as its run in :happy2: , so maybe your baseline figures has crept up a bit :wink:
All in all top work though and good luck with the future mods :happy2:
i actually didn't belive it myself .
so i sent the raw dyno logs both to APR and seat sport in Spain.
they looked at the dyno raw data and logs (i logged the car while on the run) and it looks fine.
the OEM run is also on the money - let's say 10% power loss . so 210X1.1 is 231bhp which looks around right for a car with that low milage.
so we have to accept the 300whp , which at the same 10% factor translates into 330bhp.
stage 2+ will be done this week , but on a minimal level since i am already eager to move from the k04 turbo.
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Nice work mate look forward to the progress.
I would have gone vinyl tho :stupid:
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Looks lovely matey, looking forward to see the progress :pomppomp: :drool:
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Looks good Poko good to see some other countries tuning exploits.
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Ok , it's time to move on with my project.
I moved to the second phase of my project which also includes some more power mods, but since I am still waiting for parts I will update later.
Right now it was time to start upgrading my suspension setup.
Since the car project definition is a "Race car for the road" I was going to go for an extreme setup ,but one that can still cope with daily driving on Israeli roads, which are not renowned for their paving quality (very bad).
After much contemplation between JIC Cross competition , Bilstein and some TEIN options I have decided to go with KW.
The decision to go with KW is not only due to their high product quality but also because of their amazing technical service which is extremely important in a part like suspension.
Of-course I went for the Club Sports due to the option to have them with pillow top s , camber plates and linear springs.
Pic :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fclubsport_box2.jpg&hash=9560571688151580d10770203d4cc2877967b286)
In order to complete this suspension setup I have chosen to go with APR's front and rear anti roll bars , 27mm diameter and with 3 hardness levels :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Farb_box.jpg&hash=5b3bf6a046d67d9cf95f721716bf7076f1841e9c)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Farb_accessories.jpg&hash=f0cd0a73f7d88ad3a07cdee347a5a525b86a9a8a)
The entire setup :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fentire_setup.jpg&hash=1b202139ebb97109c0ccaafc26f248ebe4370944)
And going on the car :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Ffront_kw1.jpg&hash=657a46901e5be629c95cc10b553bb1c202f856c3)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Ffront_kw2.jpg&hash=2c10ef4d05ab4ccb435aa181c3644e1ddd4c1f23)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Frollbar_1.jpg&hash=ddde87db996beaadf96dd714b5449549d5ac0aac)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Frear_kw2.jpg&hash=99b55acb60be73326c7cc2a95b04591385c8950d)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Frear_kw1.jpg&hash=ac27682819a840bc629e8daa5acfa99ebf5971d8)
Now to the important part, how do they feel.
Let's start with the good stuff.
Body roll becomes something you read about, no matter at what speed , no matter how hard you take the corner, there is absolutely no body roll.
The nose also keeps pointing straight forward, no matter how hard you accelerate or brake, it is absolutely awesome.
handling wise, this is now purely a race car. It feels it just came off the world championship and was allowed to drive on public road, everything is sharp and immediate , nothing like the stock suspension.
However (you knew it was coming didn't you ?)
With Israel's horrible road , such a track based setup is not so ideal for public roads. And I am really not discussing comfort issues here.
The combination of very short suspension travel with extremely quick rebound and damping doesn't allow for safe handling of bumps and potholes , and let me explain.
the car never loses its grip, but the driver does. Without racing harnesses and an FIA approved bucket I have already met the ceiling not once or twice and found myself hanging on to the steering wheel instead of choosing a corner line.
hitting a bump at very high speeds will even cause the car to lift all 4 wheels off the road. The cool thing about it is that the land is perfect and it never reached the bump stop.
all that I could have accepted , but the real problem is the grip , which is too high for the public road.
you have as much traction as you want as long as the tires hold , but once they let go the car will just "jump" a lane until it gets traction again. It will stay composed , but nevertheless you are now in the next lane.
on the race track that is desirable and fine , but on the road , that's not something you wish to happen , especially if there is a car in the lane you just went into.
So what do I do ?
With the help of Pit stop, the local KW distributor we had several long discussions with the MOTORSPORTS division about a solution.
after clarifying that this is really a matter of national security and they are putting the peace in the middle east on the line if they don't sort out my suspension , they have told me to wait a day and they'll get back to me.
after internal discussion they thought that the clubsports can be set up in a good way for my needs , but not excellent , and being German engineers , that wasn't really accepted.
Therefore as I write those lines, the Clubsports are being taken off the car to meet a plane to germany and give birth to a new KW variant.
now you all know Variants 1 , 2 , 3 and the clubsports.
MEET VARIANT POKO :
1) Club sports shell , retaining pillow tops and camber plates.
2) shortened and re-valved V3 shock fitted to CS body.
3) Linear , Race springs with lower spring rate , fitted for the V3 internals.
4) custom tuned for my cars exact weight (by axle) by KW themselves.
I guess that in 3-4 weeks variant Poko will be on the car and I can update you some more on how good they are.
but I must give it to KW for some awesome customer service.
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:congrats: Amazing suspension write up. :happy2:
Just a thought, would it have not been easier to get the Israeli Government just resurface all roads throughout the country. :driver:
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:congrats: Amazing suspension write up. :happy2:
Just a thought, would it have not been easier to get the Israeli Government just resurface all roads throughout the country. :driver:
doesn't need to be all roads , just where i drive.
let me just give them a quick call and see if i can cancel that shippment to KW :signLOL:
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looking forward to seeing the rest of this build, lots of good info so far. a good picture of the cupra rear brakes showing they are the same as the GTI, also showing the they are a package with steel suspension parts on the rear, and the R32/Cupra fronts are parred with the alloy susp. parts of the S3/TT. So vag goes after a certain weight across the brake platforms, thx Poko :popcornsoda:
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Really enjoying this so far, keep it up Poko :notworthy: :happy2:
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looking forward to seeing the rest of this build, lots of good info so far. a good picture of the cupra rear brakes showing they are the same as the GTI, also showing the they are a package with steel suspension parts on the rear, and the R32/Cupra fronts are parred with the alloy susp. parts of the S3/TT. So vag goes after a certain weight across the brake platforms, thx Poko :popcornsoda:
yes :)
wanna know something extra , front suspension parts actually have "AUDI" written on them.
i'll try to take a closeup pic of that.
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just a little addition.
i got the car back with the OE suspension but with the APR ARB's.
the thing is a can't belive how much just the ARB's diminish body roll.
it's not at zero body roll like the KW setup but actually there is so little of it right now , its amazing.
however riding back on the Stock shocks after the track like feel of the KW is a real bummer.
and the car went back up of-course and looks again like a Jeep.
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Ok , some updates.
As far as the suspension goes, I have decided to re-install the Clubsports as they are and try to work a setup with them since i don't want to compromise on handling.
If after trying the best I will still find them too harsh , than I will go to the uprated V3 conversion.
Engine wise, the car is making progress on getting to stage 2+ and dyno , hopefully some info on that next week , and then its bye bye k04.
In the meantime I have decided , that after almost 1500 miles it was time to change the wheels and tires.
The wheels were changed to LENSO Drag series D1R's at 18X8 with an offset of 38.
The wheels are also painted (original from LENSO) in matte black and although it is not the same shade as mine, it works really nicely.
As for tires, as temps I have installed TOYO R1R in original fitment of 225/40/18. And I must say those tires are a massive improvement over the Dunlop sportmaxx with a treadwear of 140 compared to the dunlop's 280.
Those tires and probably wheels will be changed again as the project moves along , since I am really trying to find in Israel 18.5X18 wheels with an offset of 45 and higher in order to fit 255's.
BTW, at 38 offset and with my height , the wheels rub. But that will be sorted out real soon.
And now for some pics :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fwheels5.jpg&hash=135cd1592269670d66f690c1669fadd714e132ca)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fwheels6.jpg&hash=55654b5c3e81456798ef6db84c24d9b367092cc3)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fwheels7.jpg&hash=cf074e7e627508575236c93ebccbe9c33983d796)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2FWheels2.jpg&hash=8107064dcbba801d3fb640bedccad91b6d12d8c2)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fwheels4.jpg&hash=4b1281cc09abbb5ce1bb66b1dd51d76988e23f81)
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The wheels work for me Poko! :happy2:
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Very nice, that colour is superb, ive driven a Lamborghini Gallardo Nera and the mix of matt and gloss black works well. :notworthy:
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Nice tyres, i have just recieved the same. have you had any time driving with them??
How are you finding them if you have??
:happy2:
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Looks really nice that pal :drool: :drool:
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Nice tyres, i have just recieved the same. have you had any time driving with them??
How are you finding them if you have??
:happy2:
really only a few miles and i can't press the car hard now since all 4 wheels rub at hard cornering / bumps. i need to get the cambers sorted.
they have tons more grip then my OEM dunlop sport maxx but they also produce a lot more road noise. but i don't really care about that a lot.
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ooo nice wheels :happy2: any idea of the weight?
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haven't really weighed them , but i estimate them at about 9kg each.
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You not getting any rubbing with them, they look wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
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Loving this :) very nice one mate :star:
SEAT power :rolleye:
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Nice car there pal :happy2: the stealth look really works well IMO :congrats:
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You not getting any rubbing with them, they look wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
do get rubbing on hard corners.
will sort camber setup this week.
also , planning on widening the arches and re-painting them as i plan to run a wider wheel/tire combo.