MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: OllieVRS on September 17, 2021, 10:27:07 pm
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I'd like to start this off by saying I probably bought a 'lemon'. It's not a mk5 GTI, but rather a 2006 MK2 Octavia vRS 2.0 TFSI with the same BWA engine as the GTI. I thought this would be the best place to post this as this forum has the most knowledge about this engine. Any help is greatly appreciated :smiley:
Here's the backstory:
The day after I bought the car (unfortunately from a private seller) I got a flashing low oil pressure light when I was driving back slowly through my housing estate. There was a slight burning smell that scared me, show I turned off straight away. This was after a spirited drive on the main road, going up to 5k revs twice. It disappeared as quickly as it popped up. I checked oil level (was fine) and turned it back on. Drove it back home through the estate with no light.
The next day I got a friend with VCDS on his laptop to come over and check it and he said it's best to try and recreate the issue while driving, since it was intermittent. We went on a drive, and I tried to drive exactly the same way as I did the previous day. It somehow didn't come back.
Went on two drives, one 10km and the other 40km without giving it any serious revs and it didn't pop up.
Then while picking up a friend from work, I was showing off and accelerating harshly through each gear, it was fine was fine until I started slowing down to a light, going down to about 1k revs at 30kmh when the light popped up again. It was late in the evening so I pulled over in the bus lane and turned off the engine. Turned it back on, drove up to the red light, it popped up again as I was slowing down. I made it in to the estate just off the junction and as I stopped in the estate it popped up again. You can probably imagine how embarrassing whole ordeal was :sad1:
I called the same friend that has the VCDS and he arrived 10 minutes later. He started the car and revved it, but the light didn't come back. He took off the oil cap with the engine running and nothing changed. He told me to limp it the local garage under 1.5k revs but to stop if the light came back. It didn't.
Mechanic checked it out but said he only had time to check the oil and he said that he thinks someone had added and oil additive to raise the oil pressure to mask some kind of issue. He advised me to contact the local engine rebuilder :scared:. I phoned the rebuilder and he said he was too busy to take on anymore work, so I decided to try my best to fix it myself.
After getting it towed home, I changed the oil and filter and did a simple compression test. All cylinders were in the 140-145 psi range. VW says it should be 170psi+ for new engine and it's time for a rebuild under 109 psi so I think I'm ok that front.
After doing some research, I replaced all the different components, such as the pick up pipe inc. o-ring, oil pump chain cover (which some of the plastic had broken off of), cam follower inc. stretch bolts and o-ring and finally the PCV and its rubber seal. While I had the sump off I checked the pump chain for tension and it seemed fine. I tried wiggling the balance shaft of the pump but there was no play whatsoever.
After the nightmarish task of getting the oil pressure switch connector off and switch out, I installed the US.PRO oil pressure tester kit. I then filled it up with some Castrol Edge 5W-30 LL. Also to add the sensor wasn't filled with oil on the connector side, so I don't think it's the problem.
Testing:
The oil pressure gauge is a bit strange. The pressure only goes up, never down by itself. To get and accurate reading you have to press the relief valve at the bottom of the gauge, which squirts out a little oil but 'updates' the oil pressure reading. I am not sure if this the intended behaviour, as it didn't come with any instructions nor could I find any on the web.
60psi on cold idle. This gradually goes down to 20psi as the engine warms up.
When revving while hot, it increases to 60psi, or 80psi if revved even higher than that.
But measuring it after revving it, it drops to 19psi.
The verdict:
I don't know where to go next - I know it's a bit low, but I can't find any reliable info online for minimum oil pressure. It passes the "39-65psi @ 80 degrees @ 2000RPM" guideline, which is the only official guideline I could find.
The oil pressure gauge may not be deadly accurate since you have to release some oil pressure to get an updated reading.
Should I maybe put in a different viscosity oil to raise the pressure a bit? I know inevitably it will need a rebuild, but I just couldn't afford to that at the minute. Trying to get a replacement engine from a scrapyard in Ireland is tough, as only one scrapyard across the country has the engine, and they weren't willing to give me a quote over email. When I looked the scrapyard up, it just looks like a metal shed at the back of someone's house :confused:. I doubt they'd give a warranty on it.
The oil pressure gauge is still connected to the car. I haven't taken it out yet as Pelican Parts advises to replace the oil pressure switch every time you remove it due to the washer needing to be replaced each time on the switch.
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated :happy2:
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Balance shaft fix needed, see AKS tuning.
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The oil pressure on these engines is well known to be weak at low rpm. The only specification from VW is '39psi @ 2000rpm' which you've also found from some research.
Most tuners in Europe ditch the whole pump/balancer assembly and fit the pump from a 1.8T, but that goes hand-in-hand with a balancer shaft delete, which is essential on highly tuned engines with extended rev limits. They spin at twice crank speed and don't like being over revved.
The only other reason the balancers seize up is due to neglect. There are 1000s of very high mileage GTIs/Skodas/Audis etc out there still on the original pump. It's a massively exaggerated problem, mostly by tuners trying to sell you a delete kit.
Anyway, going off a tangent there a bit :grin: What state was the sump in when you did the pickup pipe? All dark brown and varnishy? If so, it's probably not received the best care and attention over the years. Perhaps an oil squirter or 2 has partially blocked reducing the pressure a bit.
Did the PCV fix the oil cap issue? If the PCV is good, the engine should try and stall when removing that (or the dipstick) when it's running.
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Apologies for the late response, I was positive I posted a reply before but it seems to have disappeared.
I have since put 5W-40 in and it has improved the hot idle oil pressure by about 1-1.5 psi. The 5W-30 I drained out didn't have any sludge or metal particles, albeit I only ran it for an hour or so with it.
I wanted to get a 'realistic scenario' road test so I got my friend to sit in the passenger seat and stick his arm out the window to hold the gauge. After driving to warm the car up for 20 minutes or so, I did some hard pulls to try and get the oil as hot as it realistically could be. We did 15 minutes or so of harsh acceleration to roughly 5-6k revs each time, and measured the oil pressure at a dead stop at idle. On a side note, throughout the entire testing the engine sounded completely fine, no weird knocks or noises.
In latter half of the 15 minutes the lowest the hot idle got to was 17.5-18 psi, which is just in spec according to a reply in https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/oil-pump-balance-shaft-delete-info-to-decide-if-how-you-should-do-it.9418861/#post-114539301. The poster says "17-30psi at for idle oil pressure at normal operating temp and 39-65psi for 2K RPM rev at normal operating temp."
Not once during the testing the oil pressure suddenly drop below 17.5, a symptom of the balance shaft seizing afaik. I am keeping in mind this test was in 12 degree weather, so I don't know how much lower the pressure would be if it was warmer outside.
I consider this outcome good enough to put her back on the road. I should be getting a new sensor by Friday so I can report back then if anymore lights pop up.
What state was the sump in when you did the pickup pipe? All dark brown and varnishy?
There was a little bit of 'dirt' on the edges of the sieve in the pipe, but nothing significant enough to have blocked oil flow. Yes, the sump was quite dark brown and varnishy, which is a probably as a result of the previous owner not having done a service for the last 15k miles, which I somehow missed while looking at the car. Yes, I know I'm an idiot.
Did the PCV fix the oil cap issue?
Yes, the engine revs drop quite a bit now with the oil cap removed.
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I had a similar issue when the oil was hot the pressure would drop and cause the dash light to come on.
Tried loads of different things but the only that solved it was a balance shaft delete kit from AKS.
https://www.akstuning.co.uk/shop/home/550-tfsi-oil-pump-balance-shaft-delete-modification.html
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While the switch hasn't arrived yet, I've had a brain wave - the minimum hot idle oil pressure for this engine is 17.4psi, as that's when the Oil Pressure switch toggles. Meaning if I put the sensor back in right now, it would
probably definitely come on at idle once the engine is properly warmed up. :sad1:
@bobby_fodge (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=26224) you said the balance shaft delete fixed the issue for you, but did you measure the oil pressure difference in psi/bar before and after the delete? I'd do a balance shaft delete but as I live in Ireland (within the EU), sending my current oil pump to the UK is simply out of the question. There's also the option of a €175 Freewheel from VIS motorsport.
I'd prefer to replace the pump if I had to rather than deleting/disabling the balance shaft though, as I read online it makes the engine very loud, and generally the engine constantly vibrating isn't good for it's lifespan.
If I remove the oil pump, how do I check the condition of the balance shaft? Would replacing the pump actually increase the oil pressure? I read online that the oil pressure isn't made by the pump, but by the bearing tolerances etc. Apologies if that's a stupid question, I'm just getting really desperate to fix the issue without replacing the whole engine.
EDIT: I've just realised from looking at a picture of my oil pressure gauge that I've been misreading it. Between 0-20 psi there are 2 separating thin red bars, whereas between 20-40 psi and above there are 3 separating bars. Meaning instead of me calculating 17.5 psi, it was actually 16.6 psi on hot idle, definitely below minimum. Now it makes sense that the previous owner added an oil additive to mask the issue. I'm going to drop the pump as soon as I have time and investigate, hopefully I find a problem with the pump otherwise it's time for a replacement engine :scared:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xv7QWPLY/IMG-20210920-114704.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Yeah it is the bearing clearances, turbo oil feed, cam bearings, cam phaser supply holes etc that creates the oil pressure. The pump just provides the flow. That said, if the pump is restricted by a clogged pick up pipe, it can have the same effect.
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The only pressure testing was when the car was stationary which was pointless as the oil pressure light on came on when driving, the engine was fully up to temp and the revs were very low. Changing gear to keep the revs from dropping too low meant the oil pressure light didn't come on. But that was obviously not a long term solution.
I replaced the oil pressure sensor, pick up pipe, cleaned the sump oil and changed oil and filter a couple of times even though I always change oil/filter well before the VW interval. None of these work made a difference. I was thinking I'd need an engine rebuild.
I'm on another car forum and an engine builder said it'd be the oil bleeding past the balance shafts.
The engine doesn't seem any louder with the delete kit fitted and the oil capacity is now a little larger also. AKS can sell you the deleted unit and then you send them your old one back. That would keep you on the road.
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Well, I was really hoping I'd find a problem with the oil pump, but when I took off it was perfect, both shafts rotated very smoothly.
But what was unfortunate was what I found above the oil pump (). :sad1:
In addition to that, here is what the underside of each piston looked like:
Piston 1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wxwkRWbm/Piston-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Piston 2:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTWyvR75/Piston-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Piston 3:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nz0q7zTJ/Piston-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Piston 4:
(https://i.postimg.cc/D00LcTYb/Piston-4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Piston 2 looks very burnt, as also evident from rocker cover on camshaft where the cam shaft looks burnt above piston 2.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDwDrWxy/rocker-cover.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Since the oil pump seemed perfect, is it time to start looking for a new (used) engine? Or is there any chance this one can still be saved? The blue scorch marks and wiggle in the rod ends make me think it's pretty terminal.
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Looks fine - the discoloured area on the cam is the oil fill location.
You may be better off going direct to VIS for your free wheel -but the modification that AKS do is remove as much of the balance shaft as possible and plug up certain oil ways and they use the VIS freewheel too
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@LC5F (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=49808) @bobby_fodge (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=26224) Just uploaded a video of my oil pump, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems fine? There's no resistance or wiggle in the balance shaft. Also just to note, the first time I took off the sump there was a bolt in it, that had fallen out of the oil pump, meaning someone has already removed the pump before.
Also, I've showed the video to a friend who's been working as a mechanic for a couple years tell me that he thinks the rod end bearings are gone and "definitely looks like the engine was running in a lean condition causing scoring and that discolouration". Since it passed the compression test at 140 psi a cylinder and the oil pump seems fine (from what I can tell) it has to be the rod bearings or oil squirters, no?
I've had afterthought from reading a post on another forum saying that 17.4psi isn't the minimum oil pressure, as the switch isn't read by the ECU under 1500rpm, could this be true? I was getting 16.6psi at hot idle on 5W-40. :thinking:
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As I was out of ideas I bought the AKS part without checking my current balance shafts. I was at the point of looking for engine rebuild prices so was desperate and willing to just try it.
What about trying this, just the sprocket and much cheaper than the full AKS delete kit?
https://www.vismotorsport.com/copy-of-ea113-oil-pump-balance-shaf
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I'm not seeing a whole lot wrong there. Con rods are supposed to have horizontal play (but not vertical play!) and the clean areas on the pistons just look like where the oil squirter were doing their job?
The dark staining is typical of engines on long life servicing, but not necessarily a sign of terminal damage.
Was the 140psi compression reading on a hot or cold engine, and was the throttle wide open? The spec for a new engine is around 14 bar (200psi), so yours is way down if the test was done hot at WOT. 140 isn't too bad though. You only notice reduced compression at idle and part throttle.
I don't think you're at the new engine stage just yet.
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The 140psi compression was at cold.
I talked to my local mechanic who said I should take the conrod caps off and have a look at the rod bearings for any pitting/wear signs on them, as well as pitting/wear on the crankshaft. If there's only wear on the bearings and not the crankshaft, then it can be saved. Wear on the crankshaft would probably warrant a rebuild/engine replacement.
He also mentioned if I put it back together I should use 10-40W Instead of 5W-40.
I'm 99% sure the pump is fine, and there's no vertical movement in the conrods, could it be the oil squirter?
I've just realised as I was writing that last sentence that you can see one of the squirters in the picture of piston 2.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jS5MY779/piston-2-squirter.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Are you able to take the squirters out without removing the crankshaft (a.k.a tearing apart the engine)?
I really wouldn't have the tools or environment necessary to take the engine apart much more than I have already. And getting an engine rebuilt professionally costs nearly double that of getting a replacement used one.
According to a user on another forum, taking out his oil squirters and cleaning them raised his idle oil pressure from 0.4 bar to 1.2 bar, so this is something I'd be interested in looking into, before emptying my entire wallet for a replacement engine. Also wanted to give a quick thanks for sticking with me so far guys :happy2:
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All looks OK to me too -
You would have to drop bearing caps to see if there is any wear in there.
If the squirters were blocked they would increase oil pressure.
Watch this YT vid it shows the issue of balance shafts not being snug enough in the housing, the oil feeding the shaft can easily flow out - not holding oil pressure:
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I think you have to remove the oil pump to access the oil jets. You can give it a go but I doubt they are blocked. The bolts that attach them to the block are pressure relief valves and don't fire oil at the pistons until 3 bar. An entire set of 4 with new bolts/valves is only £70ish, so not worth bothering with a clean up, just replace them if in doubt.
I wouldn't use 10W-40. VW specify 0 or 5W. You want the oil to be thin when cold. 10W is too stodgy over winter. If anything, increase the hot end of the oil temp range and try a 5W-50.
Don't be too surprised to find the con rod journals and bearings are still in spec. These engines aren't known for rod knock unless they've suffered complete oil pressure loss, and even then it's the cam journals that seize up first.
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I'm not able to have a look at the engine until tomorrow, so meanwhile, I just wanted to go back to what you said earlier @Pudding (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) about the oil pressure earlier
The oil pressure on these engines is well known to be weak at low rpm. The only specification from VW is '39psi @ 2000rpm' which you've also found from some research.
Would you happen to know any specific numbers for the minimum oil pressure psi/bar?
This is what a poster on Audizine posted, for an Audi A4 B7 which came as standard with the 2.0 (T)FSI engine in the US. Since the Oil pressure switch opens/closes at 17.4 Psi, how come these are the right specs? Or is it dormant below 1500 rpm? The Audizine poster says it is "NOT monitored at idle".
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYt5VWcK/psi-numbers.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Must I have been above 1500 rpm and also been below 17.4 psi simultaneously? Since the red oil lights, I never tested the car with the oil pressure switch in again.
Maybe in the meantime by replacing the PCV, Oil filter, and Pick-up pipe I've fixed the issue and I've not even realised? I only measured the oil pressure with a mechanical gauge after doing all of that work.
If the Audi forum poster is correct in what he's saying, could there be absolutely nothing wrong with my engine's oil pressure? :stupid:
Edit: Audizine poster says switch activates at 1200rpm
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This is the only information I can find. It's a really crappy website full of adverts but the information is direct from VW, so will be correct.
It's a bit vague but from what I can gather, the oil light comes on below 1.2 bar and at 2000rpm (oil at 80 deg C), pressure should be between 2.7 and 4.5 bar.
https://workshop-manuals.com/volkswagen/golf-mk5/power_unit/4-cylinder_injection_engine_(2.0_l_engine_turbocharger)/engine_lubrication/parts_of_lubrication_system/checking_oil_pressure_and_oil_pressure_switch_(single_pin_oil_pressure_switch)/
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So I've just finished work on the car and am happy to report no up and down (vertical) play in the conrods. The crankshaft also looks clean (I only took off the piston 2 and 3 conrod caps).
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZLTq6Tx/IMG-20211013-171826.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/43fdrNHL/IMG-20211013-174854.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Whereas the bearing looks a bit 'cloudy', I tried to use brake cleaner to clean them up, but I don't think it made a huge difference. I didn't want to risk scratching them so I didn't put much force in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jqcTL02N/IMG-20211013-173303.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NkMSBw2/IMG-20211013-174812.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Luckily there's no pits in them from what I can see. Do I need to replace them?
Apologies for the photo quality, I must've had oil on the camera.
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If the bearings and journals are smooth and your finger nail doesn't catch in any of the scratches, it's safe to sling them back in.
How ever, as you've gone that deep into it, it might be worth checking the clearances with a plastigauge kit and stick new bearing shells in if necessary.
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Thanks for the reply Pudding.
There is one bearing-long groove that does catch my nail on one of the two bearings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GtY1015z/Screenshot-20211014-140402-com-android-gallery3d.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
On the advice of my mechanic friend I'm going to be replacing all of them, not just because of the groove or cloudiness but as a preventative measure too (and since I've already done all the work taking off the bottom of the engine).
Hopefully Skoda Ireland has them and if they do, for a reasonable price.
EDIT: Just called Skoda Ireland, they couldn't find anything for 'connecting rod bearings', but found 'Big end bearings' for €46 for 4 pairs, and it'd take a couple weeks for them to arrive. I told him I'd call back tomorrow when I'm sure they're the correct parts.
Are these 'Big end bearings' conrod bearings?
EDIT 2: I should've realised that the crankshaft bearings are the main bearings and conrod bearings are called big end bearings. I just missed my chance to order them today as the parts department just closed.
The sales person I spoke to when I called back the second time said he can arrange for the parts guy to call me first thing tomorrow at 08:30. I'll double check my car is definitely coming up as a 2.0 TFSi BWA in their system before I order though.
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Just spotted a clue as to the car's history while looking at the oil pump to reference stretch bolts I needed for when I put it back.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1h4kXN2/oil-pump-sprocket-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kVH8djLN)
I think one of the previous owners had the balance shaft sprocket bolt snap or come loose, as can been seen by the chip on the 'timing' hole on the top, also on the hole on the right and a slight chip below to the right of the right hole. This could also have been a source for the metal fillings in the sump I found when I dropped it for the first time.
Also, would anyone know if the bolt for the sprocket in question is a stretch bolt and what part number it is? It came off easier than a stretch bolt would, leading me to believe it isn't one or the previous person that put it in had reused it. Maybe I should reuse it but with some thread locker? I've attached a picture of the bolt I'm talking about (not my picture).
(https://i.postimg.cc/zf8JwFRM/Capture.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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It is indeed a stretch bolt. 20nm + 90 degrees. The 10 bolts that hold the pump to the block are also stretch bolts, 15nm + 90 degrees.
The upper left bolt hole looks suspiciously like a helicoil insert?
It does definitely look like someone has been in there before.
That bolt shearing off was actually a known issue on very early GTIs. I don't know if VW ever addressed it but I do recall stories of VW having to replace the entire oil pump on several cars under warranty, and sometimes the whole engine. It's a possibility that happened to yours. The bolt shearing off I mean. In which case, reuse yours.
I can't find any info on the sprocket bolt, so you'll need to get one from the dealer unfortunately. Any reference to that bolt online looks completely different, so I wouldn't trust the internet on that one.
Edit - had another look for the balance shaft sprocket bolt and can't find it. The internet only lists the bolt for the oil pump sprocket. Now that I remember, I did try and get that bolt last year when I suspected my balance shafts were rattling....and I'm pretty sure the parts guy said it only comes with the whole pump/balancer assembly, and not available on it's own.
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Good spot on the helicoil Pudding.
Take the pic of the bolt to TPS, I've done a similar thing when I can't find a part number.
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Called Skoda earlier this morning and have ordered 4 pairs of big end bearings for €46, and I confirmed with the guy my car was coming up as an FSI with a BWA engine on their system.
I also think I have found the bolt for the oil pump balance shaft. I used another forum's findings of the bolt being an M10x22mm (and from my findings uses a size 12 spline). It's a flywheel bolt and it comes up under two numbers: N90665001 and 034-H01-6009 , where the latter number seems to be specific to the 1.8t engine. I'm going to order two of the first number from the website in the last screenshot, so I have a spare in case I ever need to take the oil pump off again. EDIT: Have just measured my bolt, and it is indeed M10x22(.3)mm, and says 12.9 (grade) on the bottom. EDIT: THIS IS THE WRONG BOLT, I HAVE FOUND OUT THE HARD WAY
(https://i.postimg.cc/28q0MDkg/flywheel-bolt.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZZrGrmR/flywheel-bolt-american.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gr98114P/flywheel-bolts-skoda.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
As for the oil pump to block bolts I found a post here on Audizine (https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/680111-So-you-want-to-build-your-engine…-Well-here’s-how-to-do-it/page2) stating the different bolt numbers so I'm going to repost them here if anyone ever needs them. The Skoda dealer only had the bolts starting with WHT and were about 5 euro a piece, so I'm only ordered the first WHT bolt from them as it's near impossible to buy it online in the EU.
Set it down on the locating bushings & tap it down until it is seated. You want to use new bolts for this guy as they are stretch bolts & should not be reused, especially if you are retaining the balance shafts like I am. I have numbered the bolts to coincide with the ETKA part diagram that Charles.waite provided me in a different thread. (The silver bolt labeled as #16 is actually #17. The black #16 bolt is correct.)
Part numbers
#6 – WHT 000 360 A
#14 – N 911 495 01
#15 – WHT 000 006
#16 – N911 496 01
#17 – N104 305 02
Torque all of these bolts to 15 Nm or about 11 ft-lbs plus an additional 1/4 turn.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2MT3JTV/image-zpshfboftse.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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A neighbour has advised me that I should also change out the main bearings while I'm in there, as new connecting rod bearings will somehow negatively affect main bearings? Is this true?
Even if it is true, is it possible to change the main bearings on this engine without removing the crankshaft?
I'm not too concerned with oil pressure anymore ever since I read the Audizine post with the oil pressure specs. I'm only changing out the conrod bearings as a preventative at this point.
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Well done on finding the bolts mate, top man, very useful :happy2:
No don't touch the main bearings. You have to drop the crank to do those. Main bearings never wear as they only deal with very light rotational loads, unlike the rod bearings which have to deal with very severe push-pull loads....especially the upper half.
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Appreciate the reply, Pudding. Puts my mind at ease :drinking:
I called the Skoda dealer who told me that the guy I'd spoke to ordered the wrong bearings, meaning the actual cost was going to be 114 euro instead of 46. I told him to forget it and that I'd only go to pick up the weird WHT 000 360 B bolt. The bolt ended up being an eye-watering 16 euro, but it was worth it as I couldn't find it anywhere online within Europe.
I ordered the bearings online from the Czech Republic instead for 80 euro + 18 shipping (and also since they do 4 Litres of Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 for only 30 euro :happy2:).
But the bolt I just mentioned isn't some ordinary bolt, it looks like it's critical for the oil flow/pressure. It has an O-ring to stop oil leaking at the bottom. It also positioned right next to the pump itself and seems to be connected to its flow. I wonder if I didn't replace it (as it's a stretch bolt) and it came loose, would I suddenly loose oil pressure? Just a rhetorical question, if anyone else is replacing/reinstalling the oil pump on their car, make sure you replace it ;)
I have attached some pictures of the used bolt (bottom) and the new one and where it goes in the oil pump, in case anyone finds these useful or knows anything about the exact function of it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPRMsFFx/WHT000360-AB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/c6TQ1bL4)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3rYpsLN/oilbolt1edit.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XGjkQSYm)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJjSY8ph/oilbolt2edit.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R6gQYs3F)
Close up of the where I think the oil enters/leaves the pump via the bolt:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZmVqf5M/oilbolt3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CRnDNMHz)
Here's a picture of the oil pump and my friend pointing to where the bolt we found in the sump had fallen out off. I doubt the bolt that had fallen out had anything to do with the low oil pressure.
But this picture is also a good reference as to the position of the WHT 000 360 A or B bolt and its positional relevance to the oil pump mechanism itself.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvHZg531/pointingatmissingboltedit.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0b7gTDfv)
Also, I'm preparing to do the big end bearing change next week, will I need to buy special assembly lube or will some putting engine oil on them do just fine?
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That's all new to me mate, I've never seen that bolt before! It does look like it's a bit special though!
With everything else we've seen so far, and that bolt falling out, it does seem like someone has been in there before and botched it up. Hopefully when it's all back together as it should be, your pressures should be better.
Yeah some assembly lube will keep the bearings better protected during cranking whilst the pressure builds up. It's very gloopy and lasts a longer than regular engine oil :happy2:
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Just ordered some Liqui Moly LM48 Assembly Lube from Amazon for 16 euro.
I've read online that after a few minutes of running the engine with assembly lube in it you should change both the oil and filter. Is this true?
Considering I've already got a bottle of good quality Shell Helix Ultra ready to go and already have a genuine filter in there, should I instead by the cheapest 5W-40 and filter for 43 euro and run those at first instead?
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Their web site says nothing about flushing - https://products.liqui-moly.com/lm-48-installation-paste-3.html?___store=limo_b2b_com_en (https://products.liqui-moly.com/lm-48-installation-paste-3.html?___store=limo_b2b_com_en)
I would say it should be fine just staying in the oil - it says use a brush to apply.
You will need another litre of oil too - 4.25 litres is a normal oil change amount, but even with the sump drained there is 0.25 litres still sat there - as you have had the sump off you probably will need need 4.5 litres
Hope this work sort your pressure out.
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Thanks for the reply LC5F. I'm going to send Liqui Moly an email and also do some further research on whether or not an oil flush and filter change is necessary.
As for the oil, I have a spare 1 litre bottle of cheap Millers' 5W-40 that I'll use if it's is too low.
Now, I wanted to add another topic to this post about the oil pump balance shaft timing:
As I've removed the balance shaft sprocket when taking off the pump (I should've taken off the pump sprocket instead) I no longer have the timing mark lined up accurately for the balance shafts. I know it can cause terrible vibrations if not timed correctly, and I want to get it right on the first go.
As everyone else online seems to have taken off the pump sprocket (not balance shaft sprocket), not many people have the same issue as me. I did find one Youtube comment though:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjRCfdhH/timing-balance-shafts.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gLbMktJV)
Basically says, that the balance shafts should be facing straight down or 'BDC' while piston 1 is at TDC. This same idea is reaffirmed by this scientific video about how balance shafts work:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXrdwgDN/balance-shaft-science.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w3kPjHX3)
Also on a side note, the big end bearings I ordered which are being shipped by FedEx have magically been stuck the Netherlands since Saturday, which is a bit annoying, so I can't guarantee I'll be working on the engine this week.
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Just received an email from Liqui Moly's support :smiley::
Re: Correct Usage of Liqui Moly LM48 Installation Paste
Inbox
Steffen Niemietz <steffen.niemietz@liqui-moly.de>
1:30 PM (4 minutes ago)
to me
Oliver, thank you very much for contacting us and your interest in our LIQUI MOLY products.
No worries, when applying our LM 48 Installation past with the necssary amount, there will be no harm inside the engine / the engine oil and there will be no need for an immediate oil and oil filter change.
We hope we could help you with our information. Should you have further questions regarding our products we would be very pleased to get contacted from you again.
Freundliche Grüße / Best regards
i. A. Steffen Niemietz
Anwendungstechniker
application engineer
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Assembly lube is made to blend into engine oil, so no need for a flush. Hell you could even use axle grease or vaseline and it would still meld into the oil no probs :happy2: It's only stuff containing, shall we say, 'particles' that a flush would be wise.
'Wrecked Revival' is spot on :happy2: Most people taking the sprocket off are fitting free wheeling sprockets and don't care about the balance weights being aligned.
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Was just doing some research in preparation for the job, and came across a guide from ECS Tuning showing how to replace the clutch. The reason I was looking at this guide in the first place is because the flywheel uses the same bolt the balance shaft sprocket does.
Pudding mentioned earlier that the torque for this bolt is 20nm + 90 degrees, but I think he mistakenly found the torque for the pump sprocket bolt instead, which is a narrower M8x22 bolt (unlike the M10x22.3 bolt I'm going to be installing).
Here is an extract from the ECS Tuning guide showing the same M10 bolt being torqued to 60NM + 90 degrees :surprised:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jh0pTY4f/flywheelbolt.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/GB0PtQDK)
I know the bolt wouldn't snap if torqued down that much, but I'd be afraid of stripping the threads in the oil pump. I can't find a manual that states what it should be torqued to.
On Youtube people use red loctite on the bolt when installing a balance shaft delete freewheel, and one said that it's hard to torque down because it keep spinning, even with a screwdriver stuck in one of the holes on the pump to stop the balance shafts from spinning. So maybe I just aim for above 20nm + 90 degrees but not much more?
I'm just paranoid I'm going to get something wrong in this repair job that will lead to catastrophic consequences for my wallet and engine :smiley:
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You're absolutely right, I did mistake that bolt for the oil pump sprocket, my bad!
As you can see in the diagram below, there is no reference to the balance shaft sprocket bolt. Probably because that bolt is not available separately and therefore not relevant to a repair manual, as you'd have to buy the whole £1500 assembly to get a new bolt! Crazy! The sprocket isn't available either. VW really don't want people messing with it do they!
I don't think 60nm + 90 (that's a bit over 100nm total in reality) is achievable DIY. The factory must have some special rig to torque that bolt up, hence why the sprocket and bolt are non serviceable parts.
As you say, all you can do is use high strength loctite, tighten it as much as you can, and hope for the best!
https://workshop-manuals.com/volkswagen/golf-mk5/power_unit/4-cylinder_injection_engine_(2.0_l_engine_turbocharger)/engine_lubrication/parts_of_lubrication_system/assembly_overview_parts_of_lubrication_system/part_2/
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Quick update, the WASA freewheel bolt is 50NM, so I'll be aiming for that now.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGr4Bjb7/wasafreewheel.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Alright, after working in 5 degree weather I've replaced the connecting rod bearings with the help of a friend. Here are pictures of two of the top half bearings, quite pitted as you can see (crankshaft looked fine):
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYwZrYgC/topbearing1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PPQJCHQS)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLm7dZ9S/topbearing2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zydfkkMW)
All was going well (bar my low range torque wrench not clicking anymore) until we got to putting the balance shaft sprocket back on with the pump already installed.
The bolt was quite resistant but I thought nothing of it, as I had the idea of '50 NM' in my head and it definitely wasn't going in crooked. Just under half way in, and struggling for torque I removed it to see what was going on, and this is what I found. Left bolt is new one, right is original one that I took out:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHQ00hnd/balanceshaftbolts.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w3G5vhFW)
Thankfully, the balance shaft threads seem fine, they must be much stronger than the bolt material as the seem to have carved into the bolt threads.
So it turns out I'm a bit of a idiot when it comes to making sure which bolt came from where.
While writing this post, I double checked on google images for reference to what the bolt should look like. Notice how they have washers and how the thread is much further apart than on the bolt I tried inserting.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sf9cGLXR/referencesprockets.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This also means I have screwed the correct spline bolt into the the wrong place on the oil pump, marked as 'WT' on the bottom right of oil pump diagram I posted earlier. :doh: Probably completely stripped the thread on that, thankfully it only holds the plastic thing to the sump so I don't think it's too vital, I could be wrong though.
Now I need to see if I can get a replacement for the bolt with the washer or just stick the old bolt in and hope for the best.
EDIT: Have now ordered some 'JB Weld JB27136 Perma-Lock High Strength Thread Locker' from Amazon as after a few hours of searching, it turns out it is impossible to buy that bolt.
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Apart from the pitting, the old bearing shells look fine. Not sure what the pitting is all about. Acidic corrosion from lots of short journeys?
Yes indeed, one cannot buy that bolt. I would just reuse the old one, but just give it a set torque figure as high as you dare. Obviously you can't do the 90 degree bit again as the bolt has 'stretched' once already.
Getting there!
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I'm going to cut straight to the chase before I say anything else: THE ENGINE IS NOW FIXED!
I was going to post earlier but I had to make sure it was fine by doing some endurance and stress tests, and after roughly 60 kilometres (37 miles) of driving I am fairly certain it's fixed. :grin:
I'll just mention a few things about the reassembly job before I go into detail about what caused the low oil pressure and costs/time etc.
I got away very lightly with screwing in the wrong bolts in earlier - The correct bolt (which I screwed into the hole marked WT) was barely even scratched from being inserted into the wrong thread. The thread it was screwed into looked slightly mangled, but nothing a little threadlocker couldn't solve. If anyone is using this post as a guide, always remove the pump mechanism sprocket, not the balance shaft sprocket, and make sure you put the in pump chain tensioner and sprocket simultaneously, as otherwise they won't fit.
Once the bottom of the engine was assembled back together and filled with oil, I cranked it without the coil packs plugged and the HPFP fuse out, to circulate the oil around. Then came the nervous part of actually running it. It ran rough for about 3 seconds, then became smooth. All perfectly normal behaviour.
After about 15 minutes of running at idle, an oil drip developed from the pressure switch area. After a further 10 minutes it started trickling, so I shut the engine off. The pressure gauge showed 20 psi with the oil not fully warmed up, so the bearing change didn't affect the oil pressure, which is what I expected. I will go into detail later about the correct specs for oil pressure.
I've circled a free-spinning part of the gauge where the leak most likely came from. It lost about half a litre of oil through this connection.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4gW4J8s/leaklygauge.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Upon putting the new pressure switch back in, no more oil leak, confirming the gauge was at fault (although there is a minute oil leak from the vacuum pump).
After letting the car warm up I did some harsh test driving, and I would hold the RPMs at 1200-1500 after giving it the beans to gauge if the pressure is good. If the pressure was bad, it would toggle at these RPMs. I then did an endurance test of 30km on the motorway to see how it would hold up on a longer journey. Neither of these tests made any lights pop up, and the engine sounded perfectly smooth.
Now the car has failed the NCT (Ireland's version of the MOT) on the two front rearmost wishbone/control arm bushings and the rear discs, as the pads are not fully touching the disc due to a lip on the disc. Not a bad verdict as it could failed on so many other things, considering it's dodgy history. I'm having my mechanic friend (same one that was with me when I bought the car) change out the previously mentioned items, and the NCT is now booked for this coming Wednesday.
THE VERDICT:
Unofficial oil specs from an Audizine forum post are as follows:
Idle 1-1.2 bar or (14.5-17.4 PSI )
2000 RPM 2.7-4.5 bar (39-65 PSI)
3000 RPM 3.5-4.5 Bar (51-65 PSI)
My car achieved (on 5W40):
Cold Idle: 55 PSI
Hot Idle (After harsh driving): 16.6 PSI
I don't remember the measurements for the PSI at higher RPMs, as it was the idle oil pressure I was concerned about.
If your pressure is lower 17.4 - 23.2 PSI @ 1200RPM/1500RPM for over 0.5 seconds you will get a low oil pressure light that will disappear if the pressure improves. If it remains in this condition for over 1.5 seconds then the oil pressure light will stay on no matter what RPMs you are at (I have conflicting info about which RPM the ECU polls the pressure switch at).
The oil pressure switch is not polled by the ECU at idle.
What caused the low oil pressure for me?
To be honest, I'm not 100% sure, but I think one of these or a combination of these was the culprit:
Faulty PCV: With the Oil Filler Cap off the RPMs didn't drop, indicating it was faulty. AFAIK, this causes too much crankcase pressure, putting strain on the pump, reducing oil flow or something like that.
Over-filled Oil: The oil in the car was overfilled when I bought it, which strangely enough can cause low oil pressure.
Blocked Pick-up Pipe: The pipe itself wasn't too blocked, there was some dirt/sludge around the edges. I found some broken off plastic pieces in the sump that had broken off the oil pump chain guard, likely from when the balance shaft sprocket bolt sheared in the past. These could've floated into the pick-up temporarily blocking it.
The oil filter was also old and filthy, but nothing that would stop oil flow.
Changing out the connecting rod bearings didn't affect the oil pressure, so it definitely wasn't those either.
I inspected the oil pump when I took it out and it was perfect, bar the scars from the balance shaft sprocket coming loose in the past.
So how much did all of this work cost?
€1,115. This cost includes 2 torque wrenches, about 20L of different quality engine oil, at least €150 of just VW stretch bolts, engine components and expensive shipping fees from the Czech Republic.
All of the work was done by myself and the help of a friend, so none of this cost includes labour. If a mechanic were to do the same work I did, I assume the total cost would be €2500+.
And how long did it take?
Roughly 3 months, or about 100 hours of my spare time lying on the ground under the car. I could've had it fixed by the start of October had I known the oil pressure specs before diving into the guts of the engine.
That's all from me. I seriously owe you a pint @Pudding (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) for your help in all this. :drinking:
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Blimey, what a journey that was! Glad it's all sorted now :happy2: