MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: OllieVRS on November 20, 2021, 04:55:54 pm
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I have the worst luck when it comes to buying cars it seems. The car I've just spent 3 months on, 100 hours under the car and over a grand in parts (thread here: https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,132008.0.html) has just developed a second major issue. TFSI BWA engine.
Barely-blue grey smoke from the exhaust.
While fixing the oil pressure issue, I shrugged off the problem as simply moisture/steam as it was only during the cold start it was there. After hard driving it seemed to be gone (at least on idle anyway, there wasn't enough of it to see in the mirror either).
Now that I fixed the car, first I noticed that there was a oil-burning kind of smell every time I got out of the car after leaving it, and so I decided to check the oil level.
Over 100km of driving, it had lost approximately 500ml of oil, way above VW's specification. There is no visible oil drip from the car.
The car somehow passed emissions during the NCT (Ireland's MOT) when I put it through it on Wednesday.
The next day, after decelerating coming off a motorway and stopping at a roundabout, I noticed a small cloud of smoke catch up to me on the driver's side. This is when I decided I need to investigate.
I need to figure out if it's a blown turbo, or worse, valve stem seals. The latter would probably mean it's time for a replacement engine. I've invested so much time and money into this car already, just for it to let me down once more. :sad1:
Here are some videos of the smoke when revved:
I also got some pictures of piston 1 and 4 using my cheap endoscope. I know the photo quality is atrocious, but it was the best I could get. I can't tell if what I can see it oil or simply carbon build-up.
Piston 1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLhP88XF/20211120154554992.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DWB5Zdxd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yfSgnWQ/20211120154552245.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8JYHdkQ7)
Piston 4:
(https://i.postimg.cc/c1kmHDCS/20211120155654956.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BtDD7B2Y)
(https://i.postimg.cc/02L0Gb7X/20211120154545405.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Ln3P24Cj)
and also a picture of a leak I spotted on the turbo, I'm not sure if this indicates it's blown or not
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMSkNMW0/turbo.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CBC85FMy)
As always, an input is appreciated :smiley:
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Sorry to hear the continued problems.
Could be turbo oil seal - check the inside of the intercooler pipe - there normally is some oil, but if there is excessive it points to oil seal on the cold side.
Next thing to check is turbo shaft for play - easiest side to get at is the hot side - undo the down pipe and have a feel for play in the turbo shaft.
My turbo was shot, I used https://www.turborebuild.co.uk/webshop/ (https://www.turborebuild.co.uk/webshop/) rebuilt it myself with a kit £22, it's surprisingly easy to rebuild - but I did send the rotor out for balancing £45+ postage - they spotted scoring in the turbine shaft, and replacement was £32.
Any leaks will be making the oil consumption seem worse, the last picture is the leak at the banjo is the turbo oil feed - try cleaning it off to see if it returns - but the oil on the left could be cam cover or leaking breather pipe.
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Thanks for the reply @LC5F (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=49808) - I'll have a look on Monday at the intercooler pipe, and I'll see if I'm able to access the downpipe while only having two axle stands.
Were you getting similar smoke out your exhaust when your turbo was shot?
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No - but I could see a plume off stour when I booted it and had a good amount of oil in my intercooler.
All 4 downpipe nuts can be got off from up top, you are only needing to expose the hot side of the turbo, you don't need to remove the whole downpipe from the car. Hardest is bottom one nearest the block - battery out and a few extensions in under the back of the head and it is just gettable from up top too - if you have penetration fluid start spraying the nuts now
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Just back from spraying all 4 nuts/studs with the best penetrant I had, WD-40. Hopefully it does the trick :happy2:
Also, I was wondering, can the turbo still be making normal power if it's seals are gone/leaking? I never noticed a lack of power at any stage when driving it in this "smokey" condition.
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No real drop in power, its just oil pushing past seals - but you haven't had the car long, so difficult to bench mark.
Hopefully this is the main problem and not valve seals.
Check the bottom intercooler pipe first if you have more than say a teaspoon of oil you can stop there and assume turbo seal blown.
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That's good to know. I did previously drive a Volvo V50 1.8 petrol, so I think I'd be able to tell if it was driving like a naturally aspirated 2.0 car, but I wouldn't be certain though.
I just sprayed the turbo downpipe nuts with another layer of WD-40 in preparation for tomorrow, and while in there I had a look at the spark plugs to check for any fouling.
Plug 1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDtxKHwF/Plug1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wy8bm3n6)
Plug 2:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXqFzg6H/Plug2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xJvpynSL)
Plug 3:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qB6VL2qP/Plug3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0rvB5Mpn)
Plug 4:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0NpR0YQ/Plug4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JyJpMM0S)
Another picture of plug 4, because I thought it looked a bit suspicious:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6dzywbd/Plug4-5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vgtXxhWz)
And here's a chart (may be a bit outdated) of what they're supposed to look like. What do you guys think?
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsjJ3ZXp/guide.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Apologies for any spelling/grammar errors, am writing this on mobile.
After an hour and a bit of swearing getting the 4 nuts off, I've gotten the downpipe off.
I can only reach the turbo shaft with the tip of my finger as there's not much space to get my hand in after moving the downpipe out of the way. But from I can tell there's very little play.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1yCY6Z1/IMG-20211122-140826.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/d7BZj6jP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/52BbnXwR/IMG-20211122-140946.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SnxBKN16)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PHV62D2/20211122135337526.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Lnn7d0JD)
As you can see it's quite dirty but I can't tell if it's carbon or oil (or both).
I didn't have time to jack up the car and take the intercooler pipe completely off of the turbo but I did separate it at the bottom to half a quick look. It was dripped a few drops of oil as I was taking it apart (can be seen in the first pic).
(https://i.postimg.cc/vm87m6XR/IMG-20211122-141058.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w1PRfMSF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxhW9LYL/IMG-20211122-141903.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kR4nPFSS)
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0rDDZhV/Screenshot-20211122-154212-com-huawei-himovie-overseas.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Z9tpY0Vn)
And one of the downpipe bolts fell down somewhere in the engine bay as I was putting them back, so that's fun.
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it looks like the oil seal on the cold side has blown - the oil dripping outside the pipe is a give away suggests a seal is leaking too - then that puddle in the outlet pipe - suspect the bottom of your intercooler is filled with oil.
Little play means the turbo bearing is still good, but that would be replaced with rebuild.
If you decide to rebuild it yourself, I found the compressor wheel was glued onto the turbine shaft, needed heating to expand the alloy - difficult to keep aligned.
The CHRA cartridge has a peg to align the hot side to the manifold, mine was very tight fit and the peg stops any rotation, you need to wiggle it off the manifold.
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Got some lovely pics of the turbo (cold side) today :smiley:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfhL3J4Q/turbocold.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/14H96K2d)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTh3gXfL/turbocold2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SJxmGMpx)
Also, I replaced the valve cover gasket which had about the same texture as dried glue. Took an hour of attacking it with a flat-head to dig out :grin:
While replacing it I was also checking for cracks in the cover, but unfortunately found none.
So, back to the turbo. Tightened everything back up, and started the car. I ran straight to the back of the car to watch the exhaust's behavior.
No smoke for about 10 seconds, then back to the usual. Just as interestingly though, with the hood open (and at night with a head torch on) I could see there was some faint smoke coming from the back of the engine bay, a.k.a where the turbo is.
So it safe to assume it's the turbo causing the smoke?
I drove with quite a heavy foot back I was testing the oil pressure, so I may be part of the reason the smoke got worse :innocent:
Also, just wanted to throw in a bonus problem the car has (of course my car has more problems :grin:) , timing belt gets a bit noisy when the car is warmed up. I changed it myself two months ago so it shouldn't be acting up so soon. It's tough to hear over the noisy alternator belt tensioner, but it's the low-pitched rumbling you can here at the end of the video.
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Unfortunately that's looking like turbo has gone 😕
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I'll have a look at the pics later (work block image hosting sites) but 0.5L used over 100km sounds horrendous! Was it that bad before all the oil pump shenanigans?
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The smoke looks like steam to me. Was that from cold? Smoke lingers in the air, whereas the 'smoke' from yours evaporates almost immediately, just like steam.
The oil in the boost pipes looks normal. The rear PCV pipe dumps a load of PCV gases/oil vapour into the turbo cold side by design.
Oil leak on the turbo looks external, maybe from the oil feed line? It does look like it's spraying out from there but I can't be sure.
Plugs look spot on. Dry and the right colour.
God knows where 0.5L of oil went over 100km! Are you sure the oil level didn't just settle after filling it up? After draining the oil pump, sump and oil filter, it might take a little more oil to get it to max compared to a regular change. If it really did use that much, there would either be a huge leak or plumes of smoke out the back.
How many miles on the engine?
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Thanks for the replies guys,
the mileage on the engine is 117k miles, but based on its history I can tell oil changes weren't frequent enough and also it's had low oil pressure in the past based on the scratches on the oil pump balance shaft sprocket.
It has to be oil smoke as the smoke is still there on idle after driving. You can smell the burnt oil after getting out of the car after driving it too. There are some small oil leaks but nothing that should cause such a drastic oil usage. I did a small blast on the local motorway towards the end of a 20 minute drive, where a cloud of smoke from my own car caught up to me when I stopped at the end a slip road coming off it. After driving the long even in cold weather, it definitely couldn't have been moisture.
I read somewhere that it takes the mk5 gti 10 seconds for the turbo to get oil pressure, and the smoke starts about 10 seconds after turning on the engine. The video I recorded is with the engine idling for over 20 minutes. The smoke disperses quickly because it's quite windy here at the minute.
I replaced the PCV when fixing the oil pressure, and now I have checked the valve cover for cracks and found none and also replaced its gasket.
Unfortunately I don't have the time or space to take the turbo out (8 hour job according to pelican guides) and combine that with 5 degree weather and rain.
I've gotten a quote of 700 euro to replace the turbo, labour included.
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Ah OK, if you can smell burning oil, it's definitely shot then.
700 with labour sounds a bit on the cheap side. Maybe they underquoted not realising how big a job it is! A brand new turbo ranges from £750-£1000 in the aftermarket (BorgWarner reseller) and £1500ish from the stealer. Recons range from £450-£600 for a decent job. OEM Gaskets, nuts and studs come to about £70.
I recommend you replace the turbo oil feed and return lines whilst you're there.
Should feel like a new car afterwards with some added pep :happy2:
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You could go with just replacement CHRA cartridge as a saving, but can't imagine swapping just that out in situ.
I would say 8 hours is a bit generous - 6 is more like it
I thought everyone in the R of I know someone with a shed...that you could use, that is if not filled with JDM cars?
In case you take it on - the bits I struggled on refitting my turbo were:
-Connecting the oil drain onto the turbo -that F'ing gasket! - next time I would do that off the car, all the other lines were easy.
-I should have removed the turbo support, I left it in place, couldn't seat the manifold properly until I found the problem.
-Wish I had undone the drive shaft from the box earlier, it blocks straight access to several fasteners - in fact do that first.
-Heat shields are a PITA because working blind and weird bolt sizes/locations.
@Pudding (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) - replace oil feed/return?? is there an issue with these?
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Good tips for removal :happy2: It's a job I have to do myself at some point, so that's helpful.
I'm not aware of any specific issues with the return/feed lines on the TFSI, it's just good practice as on other cars, the feed line can get blocked with baked-in oil deposits over the years, which would obviously wreck a brand new turbo pretty sharpish! Obviously you can just do a check with an airline or what ever, but on mine I'd just replace both of them. Fit and forget. Providing they're not £150 each of course :grin:
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OK - on mine I had soaked both lines in degreaser, and left the feed off till last moment filling up the turbo with oil + disconnected the coil packs to crank over a bit to get oil circulating - this was before fitting heat shields & temporary install intake
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Thanks for the tips guys. I'll give you a run down of my current options:
1. Take it to mechanic 1, who as you mentioned before probably underestimated the cost at €700. He had no idea that the coolant has to be drained for the job. I tried calling him today to ask about what the job would entail but he was too busy to talk. He would offer a 6 month warranty,
2. Take it to mechanic 2, who would first diagnose whether the turbo is definitely the problem or not for a cost of €85, and then if it's the turbo that needs replacing it would be €885 (including inspection cost), but this also includes the price of necessary gaskets, nuts and studs that would need to be replaced. The turbo used for the replacement would be a "remanufactured, not reconditioned" turbo. He also didn't know that the coolant has to be drained but says they can just block off the line so they don't have to drain it if that's the case. The catch is he'd only have time to do the job after New Years. He would offer a 1 year warranty.
3. Do it myself it outside my house in a shared car park where I've done all the oil pressure fixing up until now and the car would be subject to the risk of contamination of rain. I would need to spend between €150-200 on a floor jack as my current crappy one only barely lifts the wheel off of the ground. I would also need to buy a ratchet strap to pull the engine forwards to get the turbo out. This is obviously the cheapest option as then I can have my current turbo professionally rebuilt for under €150 with a warranty just on the turbo but I would have no guarantee that my reinstallation process will be successful. I also don't have the tools to extract a stud or bolt if it snaps.
I'm gonna order the replacement gaskets, nuts and studs anyway and have them ready no matter what option I choose. I can't find the bolt part numbers for the dogbone mount which you have to take off in order to move the engine forwards, so that'd be great if someone could let me know :happy2: . I'll check to see if I can buy those replacement return/feed lines too.
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Whatever option you choose I'd want to be the one buying/supplying the new/recon turbo so you have control over the quality of the turbo.
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2. Take it to mechanic 2, who would first diagnose whether the turbo is definitely the problem or not for a cost of €85, and then if it's the turbo that needs replacing it would be €885 (including inspection cost), but this also includes the price of necessary gaskets, nuts and studs that would need to be replaced. The turbo used for the replacement would be a "remanufactured, not reconditioned" turbo. He also didn't know that the coolant has to be drained but says they can just block off the line so they don't have to drain it if that's the case. The catch is he'd only have time to do the job after New Years. He would offer a 1 year warranty.
He definitely sounds more clued up - as bobby says:
Whatever option you choose I'd want to be the one buying/supplying the new/recon turbo so you have control over the quality of the turbo.
The fact he's offering a years warranty suggests he is confident the parts installing are of reasonable quality - you could further enquire about where the part is being sourced - plus if he's fully booked into the new year means they are doing something right.
BTW - not that much coolant needs to be drained down - only 1.5 to 2 litres
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Come to think of it, mechanic 2 said the turbos come remanufactured from the OEM producer. He didn't mention whether it was Borg Warner or not. He also gave me the option of getting a new OEM turbo but at a price €1800 total, so obviously not going down that route.
I forget to reply to the suggestion of renting a garage/shed to do the work in. Thanks to Dublin's uncontrolled urban sprawl in the early 2000's, not a single house in the area was built with a garage/car sized shed, I'm not even joking. I'd say that route is out of the question unfortunately.
I guess I'll just have to be patient until New Year's then.
Also, before I ended the call with Mechanic 1 he said "I gotta go, I just f*cked something up" :grin: . Maybe it is indeed better to go with the mechanic offering the longer warranty. I'd be looking at other mechanics that are further away but I don't want to be driving the car far when it's blowing oil smoke that could damage the cat.
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I'd go for option 2, let them supply the turbo so that if something goes wrong they can't say you bought a dodgy turbo. Most garages I know won't fit customer supplied parts anymore. I think all turbo suppliers insist on the oil feed lines being replaced with proof or they'll declare the warranty void.
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Try these guys. Pricing seemed good last time I looked and 2 year warranty on new units. https://turbo-diesel.co.uk/
It'll be the same BorgWarner fitted at the factory, just minus the VAG branding.
OK - on mine I had soaked both lines in degreaser, and left the feed off till last moment filling up the turbo with oil + disconnected the coil packs to crank over a bit to get oil circulating - this was before fitting heat shields & temporary install intake
That should be fine then. I just like to replace stuff that is sensitive to 1000s of heat cycles, like rubber hoses, plastic parts etc etc. Have you seen Diagnose Dan on YouTube? He had a Saab 9-3 or something in the workshop that kept eating turbos. Turned out the oil feed line was blocked which previous shops didn't check. This discussion made me think of that, but I've also seen that happen on other brands of turbo engine.
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Option 2 is sounding better.
Plus they guy doesn't want your car sat on a ramp because of a problem part supplied.
I forget to reply to the suggestion of renting a garage/shed to do the work in. Thanks to Dublin's uncontrolled urban sprawl in the early 2000's, not a single house in the area was built with a garage/car sized shed, I'm not even joking. I'd say that route is out of the question unfortunately.
Ah - your in Dublin, mad congestion, all the sheds will have been turned into data centres!
Also, before I ended the call with Mechanic 1 he said "I gotta go, I just f*cked something up" :grin:
Good marketing skills there! :grin:
I may be being cynical, but in the UK they make money on the parts, when I use my Halfords trade card I get 2 receipts, one with the true charged amount as much say 80% less on their own products, the other receipt is to give to the customer with full price.
Then there is the VAT, you can charge customer 20% vat, but certain businesses can register to not have to pay the full amount to HMRC - but some some companies may legally pay as little as 12%.to the tax man.
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I'd go for option 2, let them supply the turbo so that if something goes wrong they can't say you bought a dodgy turbo. Most garages I know won't fit customer supplied parts anymore. I think all turbo suppliers insist on the oil feed lines being replaced with proof or they'll declare the warranty void.
That's a really good point - I don't think they'd want to install a turbo I bought myself. But what about the replacement gaskets, nuts, bolts, washers and studs? I'll enquire on Monday, but do you think they would bother replacing them unless I provide them to them? I haven't even considered the oil feed lines yet.
I'll hold off on buying those turbo reinstallation parts myself for now until I know more.
Also, it's great to be getting so much advice, thanks again guys :happy2:
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Got some proper videos of the smoke on cold start, after not being ran for 3 days. Keep in mind it's 5 degrees outside though.
EDIT: I've just noticed there's a strange knocking sound when I start up the car????
Harder to see in this second clip, but about half way through there's a tiny puff of smoke coming from the back of the engine bay, presumably because I reused the same turbo to downpipe gasket when putting the down pipe back on. It's very difficult to spot, a small puff every few seconds. In this video there's a tiny puff at 0:04 on the top right.
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To me the rattle at the start does not sound unusual - just sounds like normal TFSI engine.
Smoke at the back of the engine - likely to be burning off the remains of the penetrating oil - for some reason mine took a day or 2 to stop smoking.
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Just found another mechanic a few kilometres into the country side, the owner of the garage does the repair quotes usually and he wasn't there so they'll ring me back when he comes back. On their website they state "We only use fully accredited OEM parts and lubricants with full warranty", so that's good.
Looking back at the exhaust video I last posted, does the smoke appearing after 35 seconds actually suggest any problem in particular? I'm just paranoid it could be the valve seals or rings.
EDIT: Have dropped off car to mechanic friend who has offered to do it for €750 with 1 year warranty. He'll check if it's the turbo first before replacing anything. If it's the turbo he will have the current turbo rebuilt, and replace the gaskets etc if necessary.
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Yes - I could see the smoke start after a certain time.
Suspect that is just the amount of time it takes to fill up the exhaust.
Runs clear initially as all the smoke particulates will have fallen out of the air when it cooled.
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Merry Christmas everyone!
It's finally time for an update on the smoke situation. Long story short I still am not sure whether it was just moisture at the start and still moisture now.
The turbo's now been rebuilt and replaced and it may be just placebo but I feel it's become a bit more responsive, but not faster.
Here's a video of the exhaust valves my mechanic took, and look a bit dodgy on piston 1 and 3:
As for the smoke/steam, it's still there. Except in this following video, where I spent a good half hour flooring it up and down the local dual carriage way at 1am :grin:
If the valve seals are to blame it would make sense, since when the engine's really hot they would swell and stop the leak, right? But it's the same result as if I had cleared out all the water out of the exhaust. Still a mystery that requires more testing.
I also got a check engine light that gave me a fright, but my mechanic friend confirmed it was just the N249 Valve (Diverter Valve) acting up since it's old. There's no loss in power or change in engine sound whatsoever. He cleared it 40 miles ago and it hasn't come back since.
I've done nearly 100 miles in the car and I can tell the oil consumption has improved, but to what extent it's too early to tell. It's tough for me to measure the oil level accurately as all the local shared parking spaces are on slopes.
The reason for this improvement could also be that two of the three external oil leaks have been fixed, the leaking turbo banjo bolt and the valve cover gasket. The only external oil leak left is the vacuum pump.
In the 6 months of owning this car I have driven it a grand total of 2 weeks, and I want nothing more than to simply drive it at this stage. I'll post again once I get an accurate oil consumption figure and/or if they're are any more problems.
Once again thanks everyone who chimed in to help me with this issue :happy2:
Happy Holidays :smiley:
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Done just over 200 miles now without any problems bar the random CEL that popped up at 40 miles, and have measured the oil at 10 miles and at 190 miles on the trip meter (nearly 300km between measurements).
Here's the photo at 10 miles:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCbY2R7P/Oil10-Miles.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/phx3QDP9)
Here's the photo at 190 miles:
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhjRd9M6/Oil190-Miles.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7fbdNPrN)
I can't guarantee the accuracy since this on a slightly sloped parking space, but both measurements were done with the same car orientation and on a completely cold engine.
By visually guessing I'd say it's used 15% of the dipstick, so 150ml if it's 1 litre between max and min which is would make the oil consumption ~0.5L/1000KM, and that's with me doing 26mpg on average :grin: Do also keep in mind this is on 5W40 oil.
But that's much better than the ~5.0L/1000km it was doing before the turbo repair and valve cover gasket replacement, so I'm over the moon.
This almost sounds to good to be true :smiley:
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That's great news, sounds like it was the turbo oil seal - wasn't the guy going to check for valve leaks before doing the turbo?
This almost sounds to good to be true :smiley:
Don't tempt fate! - I think you have been through enough with this Skoda
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That's great news, sounds like it was the turbo oil seal - wasn't the guy going to check for valve leaks before doing the turbo?
He sure did, but decided to go ahead with the repair job anyway. He said he was certain it's the turbo based on how much oil there was coming out of the turbo and in the boost pipes. He's the one that took the video of the exhaust valves I posted in my reply on the 25th. Strangely enough he got the turbo rebuilt before sending me the video of the valves, which I think was a bit dodgy.
This almost sounds to good to be true :smiley:
Don't tempt fate! - I think you have been through enough with this Skoda
:grin: