MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: skkane on January 19, 2023, 12:30:41 am
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Hi everyone
My ED30 is making the diesel sound, gets crap fuel economy (13.4 MPG in heavy traffic / 25 mpg in highway stuff driving it gently), spark plugs look petroled as hell and it generally leaves a pretty heavy petrol smell in my garage (no leaks).
Being my first GTI (only TDI's so far from VWs lineup) I've been pulling my hairs out not knowing wtf was wrong as vcds gave no faults.
The car is stage2 with the previous owner saying it has around 310-320bhp. It has an S3 intercooler, 3" de-catted downpipe, evoms intake, pcv delete, r8 coils, bkr7eix spark plugs and a stage2 tune. I took the car to the dyno and to my shock, and everyone elses who was there, the car only managed to eek out 264bhp.:signLOL: The torque was fine at 422Nm, so it felt like it pulled good to me. Keep in mind I had a remapped 1.9 tdi bkd 105hp previous to this so I couldn't really compare or know how 310bhp on a mk5 is supposed to feel like. I had a 645ci bmw many years ago with the 333hp v8 and this felt about as fast as the bimmer except at over 180kmh speeds (probably due to the golf being ~300kg lighter).
The dyno guy looked in his vcds at group 91 and found out that my timing was 18 degrees off, showing 10 KW instead of the specified 28KW. So the chain is probably one tooth or less out of allignment. I will have it in the garage on friday to have the chain, solenoid, tensioner and those 3 little orings on the cap I believe replaced and the cams realligned properly, I'm pretty sure they will be looking funny when they take the cover off.
Now on to my question, the mechanic says that in order to replace the chain I should also have the timing belt done with the waterpump and rollers, as he will need to remove the belt in order to reallign the cams. On all videos I saw on youtube, I have no mechanical experience, I didn't see anyone take the timing belt off when doing the chain. Was it because the alignment was good to begin with and they did not have to reallign everything correctly?
If it's really needed (pretty short on cash to have the timing kit done also) can I get away with just getting a new belt and leave the waterpump and rollers for a later date? I know it's a big no no to put on the same belt that he will take off and a belt in itself is not as expensive as the whole kit required.
Thanks!
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It depends if the timing actually is wrong at the belt end. As he'll have to remove the engine mount bracket and pull it all apart to retime the belt, it would make sense to swap it all out whilst you're there.
What is more likely is the chain is so slack, the inlet cam timing has drifted wildly. The cam belt is only connected to the exhaust cam, and the chain connects the two cams together via the VVT adjuster sprocket. You can remove the vacuum pump and get a scope on a rope in there to see how extended the chain tensioner piston is, and/or if the plastic pad has fallen to bits and dropped into the sump.
Bad timing certainly won't be helping the power.
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Thanks! Hopefully the exhaust cam didn’t drift off and he can leave the belt alone. I’ll report back tommorow with some pics.
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The intake cam was off by a slight bit.
Didn't manage to finish the car today. Covers, hoses, battery, hpfp to put back, should be a couple of more hours, on Monday... I just hope group 91/93 test out ok when we put the VCDS on it.
Man, that cam adjuster bolt is a fkn pain in the ass, we wasted almost 3 hours trying to get that sh*t out, using multiple drill bits untill we figured out to use a small thin one to go thru the bolt itself, not the 13 size as recommended by someone. Apparently the tool VW sells to get them off / tighten them back up breaks easily and it's pretty expensive and not in stock anywhere over here. We had one but didn't try to take it out with it in case we broke it... the guy who borrowed it to us would've been a sad panda. So we had to go full ghetto on it.
Hopefully it turns out fine, wish I could just sleep untill monday to make the time pass quicker.
Last pic is how it looked when we opened it.
(https://i.ibb.co/9wRJS6v/7e69091f-a5cf-407a-b08a-2e5f7d2cafc2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9wRJS6v) (https://i.ibb.co/VxGRPgd/IMG-6994.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VxGRPgd) (https://i.ibb.co/kJgY8kJ/IMG-6982.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kJgY8kJ)
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Good stuff, that will hopefully sort it :happy2:
It's the ebay posidrive bit that breaks easily. I've used the VW one 3 times and it stayed in one piece :smiley:
The trick to getting that bolt out is to have someone press hard onto the breaker bar whilst you, the second pair of hands, loosens the bolt slowly. It's only done up to something like 50nm from memory, but it seems to need about 4,000,000nm to undo it :stupid: And the bolt head is so frickin shallow, it rounds out like it's made of cheese, hence the second person needed to apply pressure on the tool to prevent it slipping out and butchering the bolt head.
I've heard rattle guns make short work of it, but you run the risk of shattering the posidrive bit as they aren't impact gun rated.
It's looking pretty varnishy under the cam cover......oil servicing left way too long by the looks of it.
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I hope so too. My buddy thought the VVT needs changing also as he doesn't trust it and always puts a new one but I have to chance it, that thing is expensive as hell. 548 EUR for OEM and 200 EUR for aftermarket cheapest I could find. I heard its around 300gbp for OEM in the UK. Hopefully it's good, can't afford to have it changed right now.
Yeah, it's looking a bit adams family in there. The previous owner was bragging about how the head has been redone and only has 10k kms on it... cool story bruh. :signLOL: Hopefully it won't crap out on me, I plan on doing it every 8000km's, if it lives that long :evilgrin:
I'll keep the trick in mind for when we redo it, It's only 45nm + half a turn I believe the mechanic said. 4MM nm for undoing sounds about right :grin:
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Stage 1= 15 ftlbs Stage 2= 1/8 turn
That’s what I did mine up to…. Maybe it’s loose :signLOL:
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I hope so too. My buddy thought the VVT needs changing also as he doesn't trust it and always puts a new one but I have to chance it, that thing is expensive as hell. 548 EUR for OEM and 200 EUR for aftermarket cheapest I could find. I heard its around 300gbp for OEM in the UK. Hopefully it's good, can't afford to have it changed right now.
Yeah, it's looking a bit adams family in there. The previous owner was bragging about how the head has been redone and only has 10k kms on it... cool story bruh. :signLOL: Hopefully it won't crap out on me, I plan on doing it every 8000km's, if it lives that long :evilgrin:
I'll keep the trick in mind for when we redo it, It's only 45nm + half a turn I believe the mechanic said. 4MM nm for undoing sounds about right :grin:
Yeah VW sell a 'repair kit' which consists of the VVT adjuster, chain cover and oil control solenoid. It was about £700 a couple of years ago but I got it from a Skoda dealer for £550 :smiley: That isn't too bad when you price up the parts individually. The VVT adjuster is £450 on it's own! None of that has to be replaced though if it all comes off OK and was working fine beforehand.
Hope it all goes well :happy2:
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I had to replace my variator, I was fixing timing belt failure & the pin was sheared, the mad price for a genuine one pushed me towards ebay special maxpeedingrods ebay clone - it has been fine for a good few k miles.
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Yeah that adjuster thing is really expensive. Hopefully it will work fine with the new solenoid and timing set correctly.
Managed to find some $ to get the belt done also, ordered a new kit with waterpump and rollers, getting that done in the morning.
Anyone knows how much hp you lose per degree of timing wrong? I read it’s like 2-4hp / degree… on a ls1 forum. So I would be off by ~50hp with -18 degrees.
Can’t wait to dyno it again after all is fixed properly :laugh:
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What is the mileage on your car and could the job have been mis timed before?
Let us know how you get on.
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Yes, I think the previous owner mistimed it. Don't think it jumped off on its own. I heard it's easy to mess up if you don't have that alignment tool / bridge thing to check. It should screw in perfectly for a job well done.
I'll report back tonight.
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Yeah that adjuster thing is really expensive. Hopefully it will work fine with the new solenoid and timing set correctly.
Managed to find some $ to get the belt done also, ordered a new kit with waterpump and rollers, getting that done in the morning.
Anyone knows how much hp you lose per degree of timing wrong? I read it’s like 2-4hp / degree… on a ls1 forum. So I would be off by ~50hp with -18 degrees.
Can’t wait to dyno it again after all is fixed properly :laugh:
Interesting theory, never heard of that before, but it does sound like American forum stuff :grin: So if your intake cam is one tooth off, that's 19 degrees at the cam end, but as the cams run at half crank speed, it's probably ony 9 degrees in reality, in terms of crank - cam correlation. So the yanks reckon your engine should be down 18hp then, but that still puts it way under where Stage 2 should be, so yeah, they can keep that stupid theory :grin:
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Bad news. Car still runs like crap, same 10 degrees. Most likely not set right again, will retry it and 2nd time lucky hopefully. BTW, I have no idea why group 93 shows nothing...
(https://i.ibb.co/dG2PSrQ/8-F27117-D-6-CB3-43-AA-8038-2-B6265358006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dG2PSrQ)
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It's a dark art! - I tied myself in knots getting mine right - at one point I was out at both crank and chain, but in my defence, I had no benchmark of existing timing marks to start
Doesn't help that in a correctly timed state the belt top & bottom marks don't line up 100%
IIRC no value in 93 is too far out
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Yep, if 93 is blank, the ECU has no idea where the cam is in relation to crank rotation......and then it's a big portion of limp mode for you, sir. With ketchup.
It's time to start over I'm afraid. Start at the cambelt end and confirm the timing is correct. The crank and cam sprockets both have to be bob on. Spin by crank 4 times by hand and if the marks line up again, you can move onto the chain end.
The issue at the chain end is there's an element of chance to it. Sometimes, after you have located the VVT's alignment pin onto the exhaust cam, the inlet cam will simply fall into place with the right chain tension/roller count between the two sprockets.
But on other times, the inlet cam sprocket is slightly off and needs tweaking a few degrees to get it into the right chain link, but most folk just fit it into what ever chain link goes on, which is usually 1 tooth off.
It depends how well the cams are locked into place. Most of the locking tools are sh1te, but they have an element of slack in them (including the VW one) to allow said adjustment mentioned above, and VW sell a tool for that as well...... it's handle that slots into the vacuum pump notch on the inlet cam, allowing you tweak the cam a few degrees.
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Got it done today. 91 sits at 28kw, no more diesel noise, only the hfpf tap tap can be heard (guessing that's the hpfp anyway). Seems to pull harder also but weather out here was pretty crap with 0C and bad rain, no traction what so ever. Gonna have it dyno'd again next week and see how much she does. :drinking:
Thanks for all the tips!
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42 horses that bad timing ate :party:
(https://i.ibb.co/QbQXR3h/826-A3549-F910-41-BC-9-C4-E-7-BCA95365-C88.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QbQXR3h)
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:happy2:
You got there in the end! Timing makes a massive difference to the power as all that lovely boost is basically leaking away through poorly timed valves!
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Yup, couldn't really test it out as the weather out here is really crap with snow and sludge, no traction anywhere... but it does feel to pull harder and is smoother running in general.
I also had something really weird just happen earlier, first time it happened also. I was pulling away and gave it around half throttle from like 2k revs and the car started "surging", "lurching" badly, the dv kept making that woosh sound over and over (the car has a spacer with some holes in it, guess that's what makes that woosh sound when discharging part of the boost in the air). It felt really violent, nearly crapped my pants. :signLOL:
On WOT it doesn't do it or if I'm in manual mode and give it steady gas from 3k+ rpm. My first thoughts was that oh how nice, I may need new clutches or a new dsg box but after researching a bit I heard it can be caused by the DV not holding boost. Not sure on what revision it currently has, I will check it out a bit later. Could it be from that Spacer thing? I like the sound it makes (sounds like a rally car when I lift off at 3k rpm doing that whistle type noise) but many people told me to get rid of it as it can cause leaks and make the car run badly. I will try it with it off after I see what Rev DV it has. I heard good things about that GFB DV+ so may give that a go and get rid of the spacer. Would be a cheap fix vs dsg clutch pack and what not, that would suck. Car shifts great though.
And one more thing, sometimes when the car sits for a while and I put it in reverse to get going it will show R in the dash as normal but upon lifting my foot of the brake the car just sits there. It's really random, had it happen like 3 times so far in ~5k KMs. If I give it gas to try to force it to go it tries to but the engine just dies. Could it be the mechatronic or bad clutches? Never does it in D, only in R.
Just had a look. My DV is a revision D. Should I order the G one? Heard D's lose boost or something and are not really good for remapped cars.
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Yeah I'd get rid of that spacer. Sounds like it's one of those vent to atmosphere + recirculate specials. I would just put a brand new standard Revision G DV back on. There shouldn't be any chuffing noises at all, especially on part throttle.
It could be remapped. Best way to check is with VCDS and see what the flash count is, which is under "Advanced ID". It should be zero if it's standard.
I'm no DSG expert but it does sound like a lazy solenoid to me. Same thing happens on slush box autos and generally a good service and a solenoid and seal kit is needed to get things ship shape again, but not sure what the process is on DSGs as I think the mechatronic pack is only sold as one big unit.
I keep hearing that about Revision Ds but I never saw that personally on my old ED30. If anything it seemed to pull better with a Rev D!
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BTW, forgot to ask From those 3 pics I posted on the 1st page, how do you reckon my cam lobe looks?
I didn't know when I had it done that it can "wear out" and don't really trust it. Guy who fixed my chain issue said he changed the cam follower as it looked like 10k kms but it only had like 2k on it. I'm getting paranoid that my inlet cam is fkd but can't really tell from those photos I took and not really keen to take that cover apart to have another look.
I'll be checking this "new" cam follower soon and see what the wear is like, i've done like 2k kms since the chain was adjusted properly. I'll try to look thru the opening with it out to check the lobe but I will only see 1 side out of 3.
Getting bad fuel cuts and limp mode in the mid range. Changed LPFP and that HPFP sensor (I already had the latest revision so more money thrown out the window for nothing). The HPFP is stock and I'm either guessing that could be the culprit or if the cam follower is really worn out I might need a new inlet cam. Getting the P310B / P0087 stuff after it does the fuel cut / limp. Car was pulling fine everywhere when the timing was off and it was only making 260hp... now with 308hp it seems dangerous as fk, if you try to overtake and it does it you can get your ass wasted, so I'm mainly cruising like an old lady keeping it below 2500 rpm. It sort of runs good for the first 15-20 mins and can go WOT but as soon as things heating up I always get cuts past 3000 RPM.
Anyway to tell which cylinder head part no I have without getting the top cover open? Is there a code anywhere to be seen? I have no idea if it has a BYD head with BYD camshafts or the CDL head with CDL cams... no idea wtf the prev owner did but he said the cylinder head was "rebuilt" or "swapped". To what only God knows and he's been telling one lie after another and I can't trust anything coming out of his mouth.
Found some better pics of the lobe and uploaded them here in high res -> https://imgur.com/a/8UYdkvT needs right click open in tab :) Looks okish to me I guess?
Also forgot to ask you, did you switch to the roller cam follower kit? How was it?
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Well. Checked the cam follower, it looks like new, almost 2000 kms on it. Cam lobe looks ok also, felt it with my fingernail and i couldn't sense any scratches, HPFP piston looked alright also... So guess it's the HPFP after all not keeping up with the stage2 requirements of the map and cutting out like a :evilgrin:
(https://i.imgur.com/BExUKSJ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ED6fuiL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5R8hmZ4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yeRKt0O.jpg)
It was easy enough taking it out, minus the bottom screw which connects the fuel pipe but I had a massive fail when putting it back on. Guess I didn't tighter the bottom screw enough and ended up with Niagara Falls :signLOL: :signLOL: :signLOL: I am still laughing like an idiot, lmfao.
Waiting for mechanic friend to come save my ass :grin: