MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: OllieVRS on April 04, 2023, 12:21:40 pm
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I'm sure this question is as old as time itself. But I want some quick recommendations based on Irish prices :grin:
127k miles, stage 1. Track day coming up on Easter Monday. Halfords won't have my usual Millers NT+ for €75 in stock on time, nor any non-NT+, so I have to consider other options. I change my oil every 5000km, 3.1k miles.
(All are 5L, available to buy locally):
€91 Miller's 5W40 CFS NT+
€59 Shell Helix Ultra 5W40
€67 Castrol Edge Titanium 5W40
Called the local VW dealer here and they don't do anything besides 0W30/5W30.
Millers NT+ did reduce my oil consumption by nearly half compared to the Shell Helix Ultra I used before, which makes me slightly biased towards it. But buying it meant I didn't have to spend and extra 20-25 quid on an additional 1 litre bottle to top up since it burnt so much less oil.
Cheers!
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If your changing your oil that frequently I'd be tempted to go for the cheapest.
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I think I'll going to succumb to the Millers stuff again. After all it brought my oil consumption down from 0.4 to 0.25 litres per 1000km.
Considering the fact I push the car quite hard, and even more so doing a full track day on Monday, it just makes sense to spend a little extra. It may be difference between the engine lasting till the end of my ownership or not, and they're not cheap engines to replace in Ireland.
Also might as well add €20 to the price of the other ones since another 1L bottle will be needed anyway. So it's only €4-12 more in the long run anyway.
Apologies for making this useless post when I subconsciously knew my choice the entire time. I think I was just looking for positive confirmation bias :grin:
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Mobil 1 0W40, Quantum Platinum 5W40, Fuchs GT1 Flex 3 5W40 were all good for oil consumption in mine......and much cheaper than Millers!
Millers vs Shell is a bad comparison unfortunately as Shell is well known for burning off quickly, and their diesel is sh1t as well :grin:
Interestingly enough, I was watching REPerformance's RS3 engine rebuild video the other day and he mentioned that a particular oil with the word "Nano" it can't handle the heat of track days / 1/4 miles etc.
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Thanks for the reply Pudding, good to hear from you again.
Of those you mentioned, I think I could've only gotten my hands the Mobil 1 0W40 - €65 from Halfords. The others aren't sold in Ireland afaik.
Yeah the Shell was an annoying b*stard - burnt 0.416L/1000km if I remember correctly :grin:
Also just to update my previous figure of 0.25L on Miller's - that was a miscalculation. It used only 0.8L/5000km, and that's accounting for 100ml of oil left over around the engine when doing the change. That's 0.16L/1000km.
About the oil REPerformance mentioned that has a strange resemblance in name to what I just put in - I'll keep an eye on it. I have driven quite aggressively since I originally put in the oil and it's felt fine.
On a side note - is it normal to here a clackity sound for ~1 second when starting the engine from cold? Sounds like the cam chain not having pressure momentarily, but can't be sure. Or maybe it's the Miller's :scared:
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The clackity sound at startup may be due to the gooeyness of Millers...stay tuned. I would stay away from using Millers for the duration of an interval used on a daily. You might consider Millers for a trip to the track and then drain it for your normal VW 502.00 approved oil. I use Liquimoly Molygen 5w40, although Mobil 1 is slightly better against friction in a test. Millers responded to someone and said "there's is more of a race oil and should not be used in a daily...it is not VW 502.00 approved. Millers does provide good protection against friction, but it isn't meant for longer intervals or even for 5k mile intervals." Also...Millers, in a test where Millers and Pennzoil were heated and then cooled, can get a bit gooey. This is a pic of a cold pour test performed with both oils new poured beside themselves after heating and poured when chilled;
(https://i.postimg.cc/htJt0Y0N/oil-test.png) (https://postimages.org/)
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On a side note - is it normal to here a clackity sound for ~1 second when starting the engine from cold? Sounds like the cam chain not having pressure momentarily, but can't be sure. Or maybe it's the Miller's :scared:
My wife's Golf Mk5 does this most of the time and has done for years, but my Mk5 GTI has never had a single clatter on start up........but I do oil changes every 3 to 6 months and the wife's once a year :evilgrin:
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Yeah mine used to clackety clack for a second or two for years, but only when really cold or if left for a week. To me it just sounded like a couple of tired tappets taking a while to re-pressurise.
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For track work, I would use an ester oil without nano bits in it. I'm really not convinced by that stuff. Engines have managed fine for a century without bits in the oil, and modern engines picky with their fluids.
Fuchs Titan Pro S is a great oil and good for daily use as well, although it's not VW approved.
Motul 300V is another good one, but again, not VAG approved as they're both classed as racing oils.
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Thanks for all the replies!
I like that boil and cold test that you posted @ROH ECHT (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3794) , it gives quite an interesting insight. Pouring out the Miller's with 3k miles on it, seems as viscous as any other used oil that's come out of there, bar the 5W30 that was originally in the car when I got it. Thankfully Ireland rarely goes below freezing temperatures so the cold use of it isn't something I'm worried about, especially considering this is pretty much gonna be my oil for the whole summer.
But the common consensus is that I should dump the €91 Miller's as soon as the track day is over, right?
EDIT: This is the right Mobil 1 you mentioned earlier, @Pudding (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) ? https://www.halfords.ie/motoring/engine-oils-fluids/engine-oil/mobil-1-fully-synthetic-0w40-engine-oil-5l-390633.html
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Yeah that's the stuff, although it's £48 in the UK Halfords. Halfords Ireland appear to be ripping you off! Have they not got an Easter sale on over there?
There are no right or wrongs, only what suits your wallet and driving style, consumption rates etc. Oil is funny stuff because it can be so divisive like tyres, brakes and suspension brands. Everyone has a preferred brand, in spite of smoother running etc being placebo :grin: The only metrics to compare oils with are, consumption and wear rates. We can't measure wear rate obviously as it happens so gradually.
Anyway, this is probably what I would use on track days, if you can get it over there - https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-68897-fuchs-titan-race-pro-s-5w-40-ester-fully-synthetic-engine-oil.aspx
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Yeah that's the stuff, although it's £48 in the UK Halfords. Halfords Ireland appear to be ripping you off! Have they not got an Easter sale on over there?
That IS the Easter sale price :grin: normally it's €75. Everything motoring related in Ireland tends to always cost 20% more than in the UK.
Will keep that Fuchs oil you mentioned in mind, although it ends up working out to £71 or €81 once delivered. Essentially the same price as Millers normally costs from Halfords, before my 8% work card discount. And it'd probably be stuck in customs for weeks.
I think I'll actually go pick up that Mobil 1 on the way home from work to take advantage of that Easter discount, and to have it ready in case the track day does really toast the Millers oil.
Cheers :happy2:
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Told the Halfords fella that I've got an 8% discount with my Perks card from work, he couldn't find on it on the system so he gave me a 10% discount instead - cost €57, now that's closer to UK prices :grin:
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Good stuff :happy2:
I don't think I'll be moving to Ireland any time soon! I thought England was expensive :grin:
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Thanks for all the replies!
I like that boil and cold test that you posted
But the common consensus is that I should dump the €91 Miller's as soon as the track day is over, right?
Right....race oil is not meant for running normal to long intervals. Any "Race" oil you use is probably not going to be factory approved...but will likely protect better under track conditions and use.
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Thanks for all the replies!
I like that boil and cold test that you posted
But the common consensus is that I should dump the €91 Miller's as soon as the track day is over, right?
Right....race oil is not meant for running normal to long intervals. Any "Race" oil you use is probably not going to be factory approved...but will likely protect better under track conditions and use.
Just posted in my other thread https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,133432.0.html about how the oil performed. Spoiler, I'm a bit disappointed, considering what it cost. Or maybe I just expected a little too much. I dunno :stupid:
But I have a bottle of Mobil 1 5W40 ready to put in, just need to get a new filter.
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I commented on that post just now...to point out that engine oils today are known to evaporate and lose between 5% and 13% depending upon the brand, etc..
So, from 5L, you can expect a loss of 0.25L to 0.65L by the time an oil has completed its evaporation *caused by heat.* Obviously, the variation is determined by: brand, type, grade, etc..
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And heat, so maybe an external oil cooler might be a useful mod for track work.
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And heat, so maybe an external oil cooler might be a useful mod for track work.
LOL... :happy2:
I see I forgot to add "heat" as being the main cause of evaporation. I assumed "heat" was a given.
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If if I were doing more track days I would definitely look into an oil cooler, good suggestion. Doubt I'll have the confidence to go back though after yesterday :grin:
But speaking of oil coolers, what are the symptoms of one failing?
@ROH ECHT (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3794) you seem to know a lot about oils. Running my Miller's for 3100 miles resulted in a loss of 0.7L, the best oil consumption my car's ever had during my ownership. Are you suggesting it may have been even better in reality, since 0.25 to 0.65 evaporates anyway?
Thanks :happy2:
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If if I were doing more track days I would definitely look into an oil cooler, good suggestion. Doubt I'll have the confidence to go back though after yesterday :grin:
But speaking of oil coolers, what are the symptoms of one failing?
@ROH ECHT (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3794) you seem to know a lot about oils. Running my Miller's for 3100 miles resulted in a loss of 0.7L, the best oil consumption my car's ever had during my ownership. Are you suggesting it may have been even better in reality, since 0.25 to 0.65 evaporates anyway?
Thanks :happy2:
Well, I think those rates of loss at 5-13% per 5L, can only be accurate if no other means of loss factors in. So a 0.7L loss is 14% suggests the Miller's is either at the higher end of that '5-13% loss-rate' of today's oils, or there is another means of loss caused by your engine. You just won't know unless the Miller's was first tested for evap loss. That is to say, hypothetically, if the Miller's you used was tested and known to have a 6% evap loss, you would know the other 8% was due to something else.
But everyone can expect to see a loss of between 0.25L to 0.65L from modern oils of today. Anything greater would suggest there's more going on to cause their loss.
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I would personally consider 0.65L to be a huge and unreasonable loss to evaporation.
I think people watch Project Farm boiling his oil samples on a stove and think that is representative of an engine, which of course it isn't. His vapours are flashing off to atmosphere, which is not what happens in an engine with a particularly well designed and sealed PCV system like the EA113's. Most of the vapours are trapped by the crankcase and the rest is caught by the primary oil separator, and fed back into the sump.
When choosing an oil, look at it's 'Flashpoint' specification. The higher the number, the better in terms of boiling off. Ester base oils are generally the best for that, and mineral oils being the worst.
If an engine isn't leaking it's oil, then it can only be going one way - down the exhaust via the combustion chambers, or weeping past worn out turbo seals.
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Just to clarify; I didn't come up with percentages of evaporation from Project Farm. I believe the one test Project Farm did (and I shared), he said was to resemble temps at near the piston face and rings.
The range I gathered is from information, I could find, shared by oil companies when searching this a short time ago. They did mention the same, in that oils with mineral oil evaporate at a higher rate.
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Yeah fair enough, I wasn't pointing the finger at you specifically :happy2:
From my own research, which to be fair wasn't exhaustive by any means, was that these stupid efficiency/pumping losses driven 0W20 oils evaporate the most. A decent quality 5W40 should resist evap' pretty well, especially ester oils as they were designed to lubricate jet engines originally, so can handle a decent amount of heat. Pretty much why top racing engines tend to use Motul 300V :smiley:
Some engines just blow through oil more than others, but it depends on the conditions. Low revving diesels barely use anything at all between changes, especially modern ones with DPF ash build ups to consider, but high revving BMW M and VTEC engines can absolutely chew through it on track days. Probably why BMW specify 10W60 :grin: