MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Birchy on April 14, 2023, 08:58:23 pm
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Sooooo…I’ve got a new diff waiting to be fitted and a weighing up clutch options. Currently still on a standard clutch at stage 2+ and know it’s only a matter of time before it needs to be upgraded / impending death. Any thoughts/recommendations between TTRS vs Helix? Also…any ideas on actual cost difference and what is required for the TTRS option?
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Decimal tenths did a vid on it, you have to get a different centre disc as well as the TTRS kit.
Not sure on price.
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Not sure about cost. But apparently ttrs gives an OEM pedal feel. I have a helix and it's heavy with lurching creep. I'm used to it now but in traffic you still get a bit tired. For a weekend driver it wouldn't bother me. Tempted to change as I daily mine but can't justify the cost.
TTRS set up would require:
- TTRS clutch 07k141015b
- Sachs TDI clutch plate 1878005146
- LUK DMF 336444840
- Flywheel bolts 640440500
Or you can buy the kit from https://decimaltenths.co.uk/product/2-0-ea113-tfsi-tt-rs-o-e-genuine-clutch-kit-conversion/ (https://decimaltenths.co.uk/product/2-0-ea113-tfsi-tt-rs-o-e-genuine-clutch-kit-conversion/)
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Cheers for the info guys, much appreciated! Will give decimal tenths a look!
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What LSD did you go for?
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What LSD did you go for?
Gone for the quaife…couldn’t justify the wavetrac at nearly double the cost and can’t imagine it doing double the work of the quaife. Looking forward to fitting it all up and seeing the difference. Aiming to get to some track days at some point.
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I've got a Helix and don't find it heavy at all, I've had cars with much heavier clutches. The TTRS is popular and only slightly heavier than stock from what I've read but AKS are testing a Helix 2.0 version that has a much lighter pedal. At this moment in time I'd opt for another Helix, be it the original or 2.0 version.
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The Helix isn't heavy compared to some other uprated clutches, but it it's still a LOT heavier than a new OEM clutch.
The Helix is the most streetable clutch I've ever used. Yeah it can be a bit tiresome in heavy traffic, and I don't have chicken legs, but unlike a lot of other uprated clutches, it doesn't judder when loading up the bite pulling away, it's not snatchy, it doesn't chatter and it's reasonably priced for it's smoothness and torque handling capacity. It literally feels oem, just heavier. Can't ask for more than that.
I used version 1 with the steel sachs sporting pressure plate, and I also used version 1.5 with Helix's own billet pressure plate. Version 2 sounds interesting! Looking forward to some feedback on that one. Historically, Helix only ever made friction discs and used existing pressure plates, usually from Sachs. It's good to see they are now making their own plates to address a lot of issues with the existing ones falling apart, or just not working properly :happy2:
Version one wasn't great if I'm honest. The bite point was far too low as Kam760 mentioned, and if you have too much slack in the gearbox input shaft bearings, and/or too much crankshaft end play, you get clutch creep, and crunchtastic 1st to 2nd shifts.
Version 1.5 disappointingly wasn't any lighter on the pedal, but it felt more consistent. And bizarrely enough, the billet pressure plate felt the same weight as the steel one, if not a bit heavier. I was hoping for some reduction in rotating mass :grin:
Something to bear in mind - with aftermarket uprated clutches, you're doubling the pressure plate spring rate, sometimes more, which can kill off tired slave and master cylinders. I would also check and replace the little steel clips that hold the bleed T, delay valve and master cylinder lines in place. If they are rusty and falling apart, believe me, the stiffer clutch will rip those right out and blow the clutch line off. Don't ask how I know.
And if that isn't bad enough, do enough miles in heavy traffic and heavy clutches can destroy the crank thrust washer. It's a lame design to begin with, which just about copes with a stock clutch. Again, don't ask how I know.
My circumstances were perhaps a bit over and above the norm though, dailying it @ 20K miles a year. I suppose I was asking for some issues, and I knew that going into it :grin:
Not trying to put anyone off, because you NEED a stiffer clutch to handle remaps, just raising awareness of some seldom mentioned pitfalls.
As for the TTRS clutch, I nearly pulled the trigger on one but I read too many conflicting reviews about pedal weight. Some said it was OEM light, and others said it was extremely stiff. If you factor in Audi no doubt used bigger master/slave cylinders and a different pedal fulcrum to reduce pedal effort, you're not going to get a TTRS pedal feel in a Golf, so I leaned more towards the latter opinions and went with the Helix 1.5 instead.
If Helix version 2 is indeed lighter, then I would take that all day long because Helix put streetability ahead of outright torque capacity.
As for the diff, should have gone Wavetrac :wink: Quaifes aren't bad but what the marketing keeps quiet about is it's still an open diff if one wheel loses more than 90% traction, which is easily done if you have a lot of torque. They are more of a cornering grip aid than a straight line traction improver.
They need loading up to work You need to accelerate into corners to feel it working, otherwise you just get more understeer, which is counter intuitive. It takes some getting used to.
The Wavetrac addresses many of the shortcomings of a regular torsen ATB diff, but they're expensive, so it's a cost-benefit thing.
The most effective solution would be the Wavetrac or Quaife in combination with a MK6 XDS ABS upgrade :happy2: Wheel braking as a soft LSD is pretty effective, but the MK5's TC is very old tech only works up to 30mph I think, but the MK6 XDS works up to 60mph and is way more reactive.
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The Helix isn't heavy compared to some other uprated clutches, but it it's still a LOT heavier than a new OEM clutch.
The Helix is the most streetable clutch I've ever used. Yeah it can be a bit tiresome in heavy traffic, and I don't have chicken legs, but unlike a lot of other uprated clutches, it doesn't judder when loading up the bite pulling away, it's not snatchy, it doesn't chatter and it's reasonably priced for it's smoothness and torque handling capacity. It literally feels oem, just heavier. Can't ask for more than that.
I used version 1 with the steel sachs sporting pressure plate, and I also used version 1.5 with Helix's own billet pressure plate. Version 2 sounds interesting! Looking forward to some feedback on that one. Historically, Helix only ever made friction discs and used existing pressure plates, usually from Sachs. It's good to see they are now making their own plates to address a lot of issues with the existing ones falling apart, or just not working properly :happy2:
Version one wasn't great if I'm honest. The bite point was far too low as Kam760 mentioned, and if you have too much slack in the gearbox input shaft bearings, and/or too much crankshaft end play, you get clutch creep, and crunchtastic 1st to 2nd shifts.
Version 1.5 disappointingly wasn't any lighter on the pedal, but it felt more consistent. And bizarrely enough, the billet pressure plate felt the same weight as the steel one, if not a bit heavier. I was hoping for some reduction in rotating mass :grin:
Something to bear in mind - with aftermarket uprated clutches, you're doubling the pressure plate spring rate, sometimes more, which can kill off tired slave and master cylinders. I would also check and replace the little steel clips that hold the bleed T, delay valve and master cylinder lines in place. If they are rusty and falling apart, believe me, the stiffer clutch will rip those right out and blow the clutch line off. Don't ask how I know.
And if that isn't bad enough, do enough miles in heavy traffic and heavy clutches can destroy the crank thrust washer. It's a lame design to begin with, which just about copes with a stock clutch. Again, don't ask how I know.
My circumstances were perhaps a bit over and above the norm though, dailying it @ 20K miles a year. I suppose I was asking for some issues, and I knew that going into it :grin:
Not trying to put anyone off, because you NEED a stiffer clutch to handle remaps, just raising awareness of some seldom mentioned pitfalls.
As for the TTRS clutch, I nearly pulled the trigger on one but I read too many conflicting reviews about pedal weight. Some said it was OEM light, and others said it was extremely stiff. If you factor in Audi no doubt used bigger master/slave cylinders and a different pedal fulcrum to reduce pedal effort, you're not going to get a TTRS pedal feel in a Golf, so I leaned more towards the latter opinions and went with the Helix 1.5 instead.
If Helix version 2 is indeed lighter, then I would take that all day long because Helix put streetability ahead of outright torque capacity.
As for the diff, should have gone Wavetrac :wink: Quaifes aren't bad but what the marketing keeps quiet about is it's still an open diff if one wheel loses more than 90% traction, which is easily done if you have a lot of torque. They are more of a cornering grip aid than a straight line traction improver.
They need loading up to work You need to accelerate into corners to feel it working, otherwise you just get more understeer, which is counter intuitive. It takes some getting used to.
The Wavetrac addresses many of the shortcomings of a regular torsen ATB diff, but they're expensive, so it's a cost-benefit thing.
The most effective solution would be the Wavetrac or Quaife in combination with a MK6 XDS ABS upgrade :happy2: Wheel braking as a soft LSD is pretty effective, but the MK5's TC is very old tech only works up to 30mph I think, but the MK6 XDS works up to 60mph and is way more reactive.
Thanks for this mate! After much thinking I’ve decided that I’m going with the Helix setup…thank you for your feedback on your experience with it. All ordered up and hoping it’ll be here this week.
In terms of the diff…I did really want to go the wavetrac route but at nearly twice the price I couldn’t really justify it. Any improvement in traction in 1st and 2nd gears will be lovely 😂
Thanks again!
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Sorry mate, wasn't trying to put you off the TTRS if you had your heart set on it :grin:
Yeah the Wavetrac is silly money now. They used to be around the same price as the Quaife, so not sure what they're up to now with their pricing :surprised:
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Sorry mate, wasn't trying to put you off the TTRS if you had your heart set on it :grin:
Yeah the Wavetrac is silly money now. They used to be around the same price as the Quaife, so not sure what they're up to now with their pricing :surprised:
Being honest that was exactly what I was after! Clutch was a bit juddery pulling away to begin with but even after 150 miles is feeling much better. Another nail in the coffin for the TTRS kit after I’ve fitted the HELIX it is the description on the AKS website for the newly added TTRS clutch kit…worth a read! :grin: :grin:
https://www.akstuning.co.uk/shop/home/2590-20588-tfsi-20-ea113-ttrs-clutch-kit-conversion-07K141015B.html?fbclid=IwAR1OqCVtEvgNT4ASSRtwrGFoX8s2ky8TgyOhkp6U_UlxzdX2TfOFxNPc-B8#/2194-ttrs_clutch_conversion-no_slave/2198-ttrs_clutch_conversion-no_flywheel
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With all the positive feedback on the TTRS clutch setup (check online on your favourite social media platforms) I think you'd be mad to fit anything else unless you are going for big torque (425++) and/or doing hard starts with it. No need to tolerate a heavy pedal for your average 2+ car.
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Sorry mate, wasn't trying to put you off the TTRS if you had your heart set on it :grin:
Yeah the Wavetrac is silly money now. They used to be around the same price as the Quaife, so not sure what they're up to now with their pricing :surprised:
Being honest that was exactly what I was after! Clutch was a bit juddery pulling away to begin with but even after 150 miles is feeling much better. Another nail in the coffin for the TTRS kit after I’ve fitted the HELIX it is the description on the AKS website for the newly added TTRS clutch kit…worth a read! :grin: :grin:
https://www.akstuning.co.uk/shop/home/2590-20588-tfsi-20-ea113-ttrs-clutch-kit-conversion-07K141015B.html?fbclid=IwAR1OqCVtEvgNT4ASSRtwrGFoX8s2ky8TgyOhkp6U_UlxzdX2TfOFxNPc-B8#/2194-ttrs_clutch_conversion-no_slave/2198-ttrs_clutch_conversion-no_flywheel
AKS is clearly being a bit cheeky here. The reality of the TTRS setup is that it gets brilliant feedback from almost everyone that uses it and most people that bought Helix/Sachs etc in the past would be very happy with it. TTRS clutch is sold by lots of different places and you can buy parts yourself using dealers and parts lists online. It also doesn't need specialist kit to install and then explode to bits regardless like the RTS stuff. Fully built 500/500 motor running 1/4 miles then yes, you need something more substantial. But that is not the average TFSI tuning member...
AKS is brilliant by the way and I have used them a lot. Not knocking the company.
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@Pudding (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) did you write the ad for AKS? :signLOL:
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Sorry mate, wasn't trying to put you off the TTRS if you had your heart set on it :grin:
Yeah the Wavetrac is silly money now. They used to be around the same price as the Quaife, so not sure what they're up to now with their pricing :surprised:
Being honest that was exactly what I was after! Clutch was a bit juddery pulling away to begin with but even after 150 miles is feeling much better. Another nail in the coffin for the TTRS kit after I’ve fitted the HELIX it is the description on the AKS website for the newly added TTRS clutch kit…worth a read! :grin: :grin:
https://www.akstuning.co.uk/shop/home/2590-20588-tfsi-20-ea113-ttrs-clutch-kit-conversion-07K141015B.html?fbclid=IwAR1OqCVtEvgNT4ASSRtwrGFoX8s2ky8TgyOhkp6U_UlxzdX2TfOFxNPc-B8#/2194-ttrs_clutch_conversion-no_slave/2198-ttrs_clutch_conversion-no_flywheel
AKS is clearly being a bit cheeky here. The reality of the TTRS setup is that it gets brilliant feedback from almost everyone that uses it and most people that bought Helix/Sachs etc in the past would be very happy with it. TTRS clutch is sold by lots of different places and you can buy parts yourself using dealers and parts lists online. It also doesn't need specialist kit to install and then explode to bits regardless like the RTS stuff. Fully built 500/500 motor running 1/4 miles then yes, you need something more substantial. But that is not the average TFSI tuning member...
AKS is brilliant by the way and I have used them a lot. Not knocking the company.
I'm happy with my Helix and will fit another when needed. The pedal with the TTRS kit is only slightly heavier than standard so my biggest concern is how long will it last for those up around 400 ft/lbs? I'm no expert on clutches but my simple mind struggles to see how it can have significantly more clamping force and it's not transmitted to the pedals weight? It'll be interesting to see where the TTRS kit is in a couple of years time when they start having some decent mileage put on them.
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@Pudding (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) did you write the ad for AKS? :signLOL:
Loving the sarcasm :grin:
It's almost like they uploaded a draft by mistake as it's not their usual style :grin:
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I'm happy with my Helix and will fit another when needed. The pedal with the TTRS kit is only slightly heavier than standard so my biggest concern is how long will it last for those up around 400 ft/lbs? I'm no expert on clutches but my simple mind struggles to see how it can have significantly more clamping force and it's not transmitted to the pedals weight? It'll be interesting to see where the TTRS kit is in a couple of years time when they start having some decent mileage put on them.
Well, this is the thing. No one has run one long term yet, but personally I never buy anything off the back of forum praise because people ALWAYS leave out context and negatives.
It can handle 400lbft with the TTRS friction disc. With a GTI friction disc? Who knows.
And you're right, there is no way you can gain +120lbft in torque capacity with no increase in pedal heft without some kind of next level pressure plate trickery, or a very sticky friction disc. I checked and the TTRS uses the same master and slave cylinders as the MK5, so there is no trick parts used there either.
I've read some reports of the clutch being very grabby and chattery initially, and then smooths out after 1000 miles bed in. That suggests to me Audi's friction material is indeed very sticky. The TTRS has 4WD load to deal with, and extra gross vehicle weight to haul off the line, so it needs to be grabby compared to a less demanding FWD car.
Anyway, if people are happy to blow £875 + fitting on an experimental setup, that's up to them!
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Friction materials are part of it too
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Afaik, the TTRS clutch kits have been popular in USA for over a decade so there should be plenty of data points to google. I personally would sooner have oem parts than aftermarket.
https://www.golfmk6.com/forums/index.php?threads/build-your-own-rsr-clutch-kit-parts-list.273966/
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Shame the TTRS gearbox input shaft is bigger as it would be nice to use the friction disc as well for a like for like setup. The length of the pressure plate springs and their fulcrum point are tuned to the lining material thickness, which is why Helix use their own disc rather than a GTI one. So by using a completely different disc with a TTRS pressure plate, it's hard to say what the pedal consistency is going to be like after 30,40,50K miles and beyond.
You can get the pressure plate and disc for around £400, oem. I'm surprised no one has come up with an adapter sleeve to facilitate fitment of the TTRS disc.
The Helix whilst old school and hefty, is designed specifically for the application so feels exactly OEM, just heavier.
Maybe retro fit the servo assisted clutch master cylinder from a Nissan Patrol :grin:
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I’m sure people will be more than happy with the TTRS clutch setup and there’s a lot of positive feedback regarding it which, along with having as close to stock pedal feel made for a compelling argument for going that route. But as previously mentioned…it’s a collection of parts designed for other uses that have been adapted. I went for the Helix because it was designed for a specific use. Having put around 200 miles on the Helix, my own thoughts are that the ‘heavy pedal’ is less heavy than I expected and whilst SLIGHTLY heavier than stock it gives better feedback through the pedal.
At the end of the day…
When all’s said and done…
In an ideal world…
I’m very happy with my choice and am grateful for the advice I received.
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Using the braided clutch hose eliminates the swirl pot and gives a lighter pedal and a more positive clutch action. I fitted this after taking out the bleeder block restrictor and the gear change became altogether more snickety-snick.
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I’m sure people will be more than happy with the TTRS clutch setup and there’s a lot of positive feedback regarding it which, along with having as close to stock pedal feel made for a compelling argument for going that route. But as previously mentioned…it’s a collection of parts designed for other uses that have been adapted. I went for the Helix because it was designed for a specific use. Having put around 200 miles on the Helix, my own thoughts are that the ‘heavy pedal’ is less heavy than I expected and whilst SLIGHTLY heavier than stock it gives better feedback through the pedal.
At the end of the day…
When all’s said and done…
In an ideal world…
I’m very happy with my choice and am grateful for the advice I received.
I'm glad you're happy with it, which is all that matters at the end of the day :happy2:
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Using the braided clutch hose eliminates the swirl pot and gives a lighter pedal and a more positive clutch action. I fitted this after taking out the bleeder block restrictor and the gear change became altogether more snickety-snick.
Yep, completely agree with that. I used the Darkside clutch line and it was a great upgrade.