Post by: OllieVRS on June 16, 2023, 11:54:57 pm
eature=share3
Video says it all. Can only be heard inside the car, with the bonnet open I can't hear it, let alone locate it. Goes away as soon as the revs are above idle. Makes me paranoid it's the cam chain, but I'm not sure as I can't hear it if I stick my ear to the cam chain cover with the bonnet open.
Any ideas lads?
Post by: GVK on June 16, 2023, 11:57:36 pm
Post by: Clarkj93 on June 17, 2023, 12:00:39 am
Post by: OllieVRS on June 17, 2023, 06:09:46 pm
(https://postimg.cc/DWG8d4VH)
I would think this could be the cause? Up to temp engine. Rattle is inconsistent, sometimes it's there but sometimes goes away.
My engine has a history of low oil pressure, but I'm only after fixing it 1000km ago, could this -6.0KW be caused by low oil pressure again it's something with the tensioner or chain? I know the tensioner runs on oil pressure.
Gonna shamelessly @Pudding (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) here, because I know he's the expert on these kinds of things :happy2:
Appreciate it
Edit: Adding a picture of the cam chain, I only checked it 1000km ago and it seemed fine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4bJ7DJq/PXL-20230502-184813520.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MvsqF71N)
128k miles, shoddy service history, probably original chain and tensioner
Post by: OllieVRS on June 19, 2023, 07:18:30 pm
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWd85s8M/PXL-20230619-175005210.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3WKjJsMq)
Anyway, gave it some revs. Goes quiet as revs go up, and clackity as they come down. Scaring me into thinking it's rod knock :scared:
eature=share3
Anyway, that's all for now. I'll double check the oil pressure to make it's not a factor. Replacement FEBI chain and tensioner, OEM VVT bolt have arrived, just waiting on the cam locking kit and T40080 bit. As always, appreciate all responses :smiley:
Post by: OllieVRS on June 19, 2023, 08:57:33 pm
Interestingly, throughout my whole oil pressure testing I didn't hear the rattle once!
To complicate things even more, have a look at this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rphKdgzK/PXL-20230619-194140972.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SXMy366h)
Back down to -4.0°KW, oil at 85°C. And block 91 act. is within 1°KW of spec. Self repairing engine?
Mustn't be rod knock then :drinking:
Post by: OllieVRS on June 19, 2023, 10:31:36 pm
The rattle stops when I open the bonnet
What mechanisms are affected by opening the bonnet?
Post by: bobby_fodge on June 20, 2023, 12:18:37 pm
Little drive done and she's still at -4°KW, block 91 within spec too.
The rattle stops when I open the bonnet
What mechanisms are affected by opening the bonnet?
That's odd.
Is the locking mech where the hook on the bonnet sits coming loose?
Have you left a hand tool in the engine bay that the bonnet rests on when closed?
Any witness mark on the underneath of the bonnet from anything rubbing it?
Post by: pudding on June 20, 2023, 02:44:55 pm
You can't hear it in the engine bay due to all the other noises going on under there, and noises bounce off other hard surfaces and also transmit from one end of the engine to the other, so it's just noise soup under there.
It could also be DMF rattle as it's hard to tell with smartphone microphones, but that you definitely will hear in the engine bay.
I recommend getting a stethoscope from Amazon!
Post by: OllieVRS on June 20, 2023, 07:29:47 pm
Little drive done and she's still at -4°KW, block 91 within spec too.
The rattle stops when I open the bonnet
What mechanisms are affected by opening the bonnet?
That's odd.
Is the locking mech where the hook on the bonnet sits coming loose?
Have you left a hand tool in the engine bay that the bonnet rests on when closed?
Any witness mark on the underneath of the bonnet from anything rubbing it?
No tools left in the engine bay, good suggestion though.
Started her up today. No tapping sound. Starting to think it's the RAMAIR cone filter's metal edge bouncing off the bonnet, as it's adjusted quite high up to avoid bouncing off the coolant pipe. Although from a not-so-technical inspection it seems impossible, nor did I find any witness marks under the bonnet or on the edge of the cone.
At 128K miles, it could very well be the chain. The classic symptom of that is a diesel like clattering at a hot idle, which is most noticeable inside the car.
You can't hear it in the engine bay due to all the other noises going on under there, and noises bounce off other hard surfaces and also transmit from one end of the engine to the other, so it's just noise soup under there.
It could also be DMF rattle as it's hard to tell with smartphone microphones, but that you definitely will hear in the engine bay.
I recommend getting a stethoscope from Amazon!
I know what you mean Pudding, but as far as I can tell it otherwise sound like a run-of-the-mill, average mileage TFSi. No diesel sound. I have a friend with a low mileage AXX that runs quieter, somehow.
I forgot to answer this earlier, but being in neutral, pedal in/out or in gear had no affect on the sound on my drive. Sound at idle, sound on over-run, little to no sound on accel. Clutch pedal feels absolutely perfect since my shim fix.
Anyways, on that startup today I logged the degrees again, started off at -4°KW and went up to -6°KW as the engine warmed up. Bizarrely no rattle.
I'll aim to replace the chain tomorrow, because rattle or no rattle, -6°KW means the chains on 'borrowed time', if I can quote you correctly @Pudding
I'll post an update again tomorrow, hopefully with concrete results.
Cheers guys
Post by: OllieVRS on June 23, 2023, 11:07:51 pm
First problem was the cheap Chinese cam locking tool's legs were bending.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4d1r6F9Y/PXL-20230621-161532938.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mztXRjV4)
Second problem was the bolt almost immediately stripped, despite using the correct VW bit. Resorted to bashing in a T55, also didn't work, just stripped it more.
Couple days passed, I've tried drilling the bolt to get a bolt extractor bit in, no luck as the extractor's threads don't want to catch on. And I've now get metal fillings everywhere :sad1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0QtKLVq3/PXL-20230623-205001819-PORTRAIT-ORIGINAL.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLKvFcbc).
Tomorrow I'm going to go buy a 12mm metal drill bit, then attempt to bash in a T60 as one guy has done already on YouTube. That's really my last option, I don't see how else I can do it.
Also, advice for stopping the cams from moving other than the cam locking tool? Thanks.
Post by: pudding on June 24, 2023, 02:45:44 am
Post by: OllieVRS on June 24, 2023, 02:57:03 am
Don't worry about movement in the cams with the locking tool. That is intentional because you need to tweak the inlet cam anti clockwise a few degrees when fitting the new chain to get the correct tension/timing.
No, but the cam locking tool I got is so week that it's legs are getting bent out of shape as I'm trying to undo the cam bolt (as the cam is still rotating). I need another way to stop them moving.
Post by: pudding on June 24, 2023, 01:17:40 pm
Post by: OllieVRS on June 26, 2023, 10:22:22 pm
So, I spent 13 hours drilling out the effing bolt, over a span of 2 days. Yes, 13 hours on one bolt, including three journeys to the hardware store for drill bits. Bashing in a T55/T60 didn't work, it kept slipping out, so it had to be drilled all the way to the base of the head. And the bolt's material was so hard it dulled 4/5 of the 12mm drill bits I bought.
Anyway, enough talking, here's the picture of the bolt after I was done with it (I was nearly crying tears of joy when I finally got it out, it was one of those moments):
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLG9S4s1/PXL-20230624-190821510.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xJPCB4cP)
Minimal damage to the base of VVT phaser. Disassembled and cleaned out the phaser after with brake cleaner and oiled it up.
Cam chain specs after reassembly, pretty sweet right?:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kX920vgN/PXL-20230626-191244929-MP.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SjTQ888j)
Also, I think I've solved an old mystery while doing this job. @ROH ECHT (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3794) and @Clarkj93 (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=98143) you guys might find this interesting, since you guys commented on my post a year ago (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,132769.0.html) trying to help. Hopefully this gives some closure, perhaps :grin:
Have a look at my cam chain tensioner, notice something is missing?
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0wtGNcd/PXL-20230626-190856933.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qhWbVjSz)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JnHdY1Dz/plastic1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WFjnhcwB)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dw3pjkn2/plastic2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vcXvTK4j)
Not sure if it's placebo, but the engine sounds quieter and I'm not even talking about the mysterious phantom rattle that started this post (which is gone now btw). Just sounds 'less angry'.
That's all. Cheers :happy2:
Post by: OllieVRS on June 27, 2023, 11:17:36 am
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pcZBBWQ/PXL-20230624-195128924-3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CRZ5NTfy)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLwQQTQb/IMG-20220521-143933.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/p9zdwfZq)
Post by: ROH ECHT on June 28, 2023, 02:48:05 pm
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5w6XN2g/aa.png) (https://postimages.org/)
There's been a noticeable number of pads breaking there in the exact spot.
Then the other additional factors one might think of: brittleness of pad material__time and heat cycles__any stress applied during the assembly of the unit...etc.
Post by: G-olf on June 28, 2023, 08:01:05 pm
Did you also replace the cambelt?
What make was the locking tool that was not up to the job?
Did you replace the 3 oil rings on the centre of the cover?
Thank you
Post by: OllieVRS on June 28, 2023, 08:23:14 pm
looking at doing this job myself so reading the thread with interest.
Did you also replace the cambelt?
What make was the locking tool that was not up to the job?
Did you replace the 3 oil rings on the centre of the cover?
Thank you
Hi G-olf,
This a pretty tough job, just fair warning. It's very easy to mess it up (as I did with the cam bolt). So only go ahead if you are comfortable with taking those risks, and are confident in your experience level. And you can hear you timing chain is rattling and/or is due based on a VCDS scan of Block 091 and 093.
That being said, I'll answer your questions:
I replaced the cambelt 2 years ago, it has no relation to the cam chain job as it's on the opposite side of the engine. So there's no benefit to doing it at the same time. Cambelt interval is 4 years/60k miles iirc.
The locking tool was a cheapo Chinese one of Amazon UK, I'm sure it will come up under different names as many retailers will brand it as their own. Here's what it looks like:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTwPbvX7/Capture.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JGQXfBcc)
You can buy official ones from VW, T10252 (the locking tool) and T10020 (timing bar). Just the locking tool was 113 euro from VW, I didn't even bother getting a quote after that for the bar because I'm a stingy b*stard. In hindsight it would've made the job a lot easier.
Also for the VW polydrive bit, T40080, I'd recommend an OEM one as they're only 15 from VW. I bought a Draper one off Amazon, was pretty loose in the cam bolt, that may have contributed to me stripping the bolt. Avoid.
As for the oil control rings, mine were intact so I didn't replace them. I've never had any problems with a rough idle or misfires, but if you do you should replace them. It's a 'while you're in there' kinda job, but I wasn't bothered.
Top tip: If you don't want to disconnect the small coolant pipe that runs over the top of the cam chain housing, remove the VVT sensor from the cam chain housing for more wiggle room, which isn't mentioned in the cam chain guide (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=106158.0). It's the thing with the plastic connector on top, held in with two T25s. And even with it out the cam chain cover will still probably be a tight removal, so careful when you're taking the cover off you don't break the end of the previously mentioned coolant pipes connector, which is what I did the first time I took it off. And be gentle putting the cam chain cover back on, so you don't break the control rings.
Good luck!
Post by: G-olf on June 28, 2023, 08:33:34 pm
Post by: ROH ECHT on June 30, 2023, 02:56:49 pm
ThanksHere's one of many diy vids. He does both the belt and chain, so you can skip to about midway for the chain. As said, it can be difficult when it comes to the cam adjuster bolt on the exhaust cam. A good number have stripped them and then needed to drill the bolt in order to use an extractor to remove the bolt.
Post by: OllieVRS on June 30, 2023, 03:02:16 pm
ThanksHere's one of many diy vids. He does both the belt and chain, so you can skip to about midway for the chain. As said, it can be difficult when it comes to the cam adjuster bolt on the exhaust cam. A good number have stripped them and then needed to drill the bolt in order to use an extractor to remove the bolt.
Yep this combined with the cam chain guide on this forum is what I used when doing mine. That YouTube channel also has a video of him removing a stripped/rounded cam chain bolt, where he first drills it then bashes in a T60. I tried recreating his trick but I couldn't get the T60 bashed in "4-5mm" like he suggests, only 2mm. So of course the bit just slipped out :doh:
Good video though, the way he shows the installation of the new chain is very easy to follow.
Keep in mind, in his video he's removed that top coolant line that runs over the cam chain housing, so he's got an easier job. I don't think he mentions it in the video.
Post by: pudding on June 30, 2023, 09:04:53 pm
Mate, I drilled out 4 f'cked locking wheel bolts on my Bimmer in 1 hour :grin:
How I hear you ask? Cheap cobalt drill bits from Machine Mart :laugh: Honestly, like a hot knife through butter.
Anyway, glad you got there and yes, your post KW results are fine and dandy :drinking:
I hate to keep harping on about it, but the reason the plastic guide fell to pieces is due to extended oil services and the worn chain slapping about, hammering on it. These engines need 5K changes, max. 3K if you can afford it and/or can be arsed. Plastic and rubber parts drenched in fuel saturated oil just degrades super fast and become mega brittle. You will also want to replace the primary oil separator PCV tube as they snap like dry reeds if you just look at them the wrong way.
I could post a video where the chief engineer on the Nissan GTR project also recommends 3K oil changes, but I won't as it's boring :grin:
Anyway, happy days, you did it and you did it without f'cking up the timing :happy2: :grin:
Now that you have addressed the common things, and well done on the piston oil jets by the way, you can keep on top of the maintenance and these things won't happen again :happy2:
Post by: OllieVRS on July 03, 2023, 12:17:18 am
13 hours, wow!
Mate, I drilled out 4 f'cked locking wheel bolts on my Bimmer in 1 hour :grin:
How I hear you ask? Cheap cobalt drill bits from Machine Mart :laugh: Honestly, like a hot knife through butter.
Anyway, glad you got there and yes, your post KW results are fine and dandy :drinking:
I hate to keep harping on about it, but the reason the plastic guide fell to pieces is due to extended oil services and the worn chain slapping about, hammering on it. These engines need 5K changes, max. 3K if you can afford it and/or can be arsed. Plastic and rubber parts drenched in fuel saturated oil just degrades super fast and become mega brittle. You will also want to replace the primary oil separator PCV tube as they snap like dry reeds if you just look at them the wrong way.
I could post a video where the chief engineer on the Nissan GTR project also recommends 3K oil changes, but I won't as it's boring :grin:
Anyway, happy days, you did it and you did it without f'cking up the timing :happy2: :grin:
Now that you have addressed the common things, and well done on the piston oil jets by the way, you can keep on top of the maintenance and these things won't happen again :happy2:
Great to hear from you as always Pudding. You really make me think I was drilling wrong since it took that long, but who knows, maybe VW cam bolts are made of a much tougher material than Bimmer wheel bolts :grin:
I used 3 'professional grade' Bosch Straight Shank 12mm bits and all three of them went blunt very quickly, probably 3mm of drilling done between them combined. Used a generic Stanley Hss Crownpoint 12mm bit and it was an absolute weapon, getting 5mm in alone without dulling. Weirdly the same situation as yours, cheap works best.
Yep, been doing 3k mile or less (forced oil changes when the sump has to be dropped, haha) oil changes since I bought her, 12k miles in now. Because of the oil pressure shenanigans with this car I've probably at least 10 oil changes.
Which PCV tube are you talking about? I've already been thinking of replacing the short one that runs to the top of the intake manifold from the PCV as it looks like it's weeping oil.
Currently as it stands, every single possible item on this engine has been serviced. It can literally only fail now if the engine bearings spontaneously disintegrate. :laugh:
Post by: pudding on July 07, 2023, 08:57:47 pm
Not sure what material the Bosch professionals are but Cobalt or Carbide drills are what you need for drilling steel :happy2:
If I'd used those brass coloured £20 for a set of 10 drills from B&Q, I'd have been there for hours and probably got through half a dozen bits, but 1 cobalt bit drilled out 4 bolts and it was still sharp at the end of the ordeal, can't grumble at that. These are what I used, but they were £40 when I bought them years ago.... inflation is a killer - https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cht384-25pce-cobalt-steel-drill-bit-se/
It's the one that comes off the front PCV and disappears down under the intake manifold. It joins onto the oil filter housing. A bit of a swine to get at but when I removed mine to inspect it, it fell to pieces in my hand and was almost completely blocked with baked carbon! Well worth replacing even just for preventative maintenance.
it's getting there! Props to your perserverence and regular updates :happy2: