MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: b7unr on May 03, 2010, 03:30:51 pm
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Hi i`m looking to buy a new air intake system, i was wondering what is the best one to get as they seem to range from £60 to £250.
THanks
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best "almost" oem in noise= Carbonio
Best "moderat noise"=Forge twintake
Darth Vader=ITG
IMO :grin:
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Hopefully this is not hi jacking your post but I had pritty much decided to go for the itg but in the back of my mind is I don't want people thinking I'm some sort of boy racer with it making loads of noise would I be best to switch to the forge twin take is this a lot quiter?
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Carbonio does virtually nothing to improve performance which negates the purpose in fitting one IMO, especially when the noise does not change.
A good intake for decent gains and minimal noise is the Dbilas. There are always a few of these in the for sale section as people (wrongly) believe open cones are going to give them loads more bhp over the Dbilas and decide to jump on the ITG/Twintake band wagon because its what everyone else is doing and claims of higher bhp etc with them.
For what its worth, my car made 337bhp (at the wheels) with a Dbilas (Revo S2+ 2.0T K04 Cupra) :happy2:. I recently changed to an Evoms as I wanted more intake noise. I chose Evoms as it uses a large cotton cone rather than a foam filter as seen on the ITG, and it is less "home made" looking than the ITG. The Twintake is an expensive option, and being honest, I cannot see how the second intake is going to catch that much air having seen one fitted to a car.
There is also the 3" VF Intake option with the Evoms cone modification which is recommended for cars with the GIAC Extreme Plus file.
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The Twintake is an expensive option, and being honest, I cannot see how the second intake is going to catch that much air having seen one fitted to a car.
....The Twintake is only a little bit cheaper than the ITG and on back-to-back dyno runs has added 21bhp to my K03 GTI, so whether you understand the second filter or not doesn't matter.
The term "best" is somewhat subjective. We all like different sounds and different looks and not all of us have the same attitude about the money we spend.
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Hi Redrobin, is that the twintake gained 21bhp over the ITG with no other changes to the car? I thought from other posts that the ITG gave more power than twintake in back to back, but I think this was on k04 cars?
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if you bought the BSH, Evoms, twintake or ITG you wouldnt be disappointed. they are all good and will all give you good gains.
My order for purchase there would be
1)twintake or ITG (couldnt really pick a favourite there)
2)Evoms
3)BSH
the Dbilias wouldnt even be on my list despite making good gains. it uses the tiniest of panel filters to make the same sort of gains as a big cone filter.....i know id choose the bigger option everytime to ensure i was filter the air as much as possible. plus after hearing TFSImikes dbilias before we swapped it to the ITG and i thought it sounded weird
Hi Redrobin, is that the twintake gained 21bhp over the ITG with no other changes to the car? I thought from other posts that the ITG gave more power than twintake in back to back, but I think this was on k04 cars?
no he gained 21Hp over the stock airbox with the carbonio scoop and panel filter whilst at stage 2
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....The Twintake is only a little bit cheaper than the ITG and on back-to-back dyno runs has added 21bhp to my K03 GTI, so whether you understand the second filter or not doesn't matter.
The term "best" is somewhat subjective. We all like different sounds and different looks and not all of us have the same attitude about the money we spend.
I realise that, but you would probably have attained the same gain with any of the other intakes with the same test I bet. Also remember that r/r results can differ by as much as half the gain you saw on back to back runs, so its really not fully conclusive.
Agreed that the word "best" is subjective though :smiley:. I bought the Dbilas when it was the most expensive K04 option, but I am not sold on most expensive is necessarily the best. For example, I have Autotech anti roll bars on my car, the most expensive ones on the market as far as I know, and I genuinely dont think they are, if at all, much better than the standard anti roll bars were.
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^^^^
:happy2: 8) :happy2:
The bottom line is that the 2.0T FSI engines respond well to aftermarket high-flow tubular intakes with some impressive power gains and that we have three or four good ones to choose from.
For what it's worth, my top three "best" would be:
1) - Forge Twintake
2) - ITG
3) - EVOMS
They're all close in performance and it comes down to soundz, eye-candy and cost.
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How much differnce in sound is there between the twin take and itg I'm looking for some noise but not massivley over the top
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How much differnce in sound is there between the twin take and itg I'm looking for some noise but not massivley over the top
....They say the ITG is 'louder'. The EVOMS is def the noisiest, but:
The sounds each air intake makes will depend on the host car's whole package, which includes aftermarket mods. It also depends on what the individual driver's hearing range or focus is. It's a variable dynamic and a tube (high-flow tubular intake) will amplify various sounds and also do so according to the resonance of the materials used. Temperatures also influence the sounds.
In my case, the VWR engine mounts transfer a lot of sound to the cabin (something I love), not just the Twintake's.
As you may know, I'm a musician and also do my own recording and sound engineering/production (with someone else sat alongside who is very very experienced). So, I'll use that comparison to try to explain:
Imagine a song with several tracks. If you fatten up the bass guitar sound it might obscure some of the others such as rhythm guitar. If you reduce the level of a lead guitar it might reveal more of the singer's nuances. The whole is called the mix and the final mix is what you hear, and each of us might hear that mix slightly differently. And hear different parts on different occasions.
For my car and for me, I find the Twintake hits my sweet spot.
I hope this helps!
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Carbonio does virtually nothing to improve performance which negates the purpose in fitting one IMO, especially when the noise does not change.
A good intake for decent gains and minimal noise is the Dbilas. There are always a few of these in the for sale section as people (wrongly) believe open cones are going to give them loads more bhp over the Dbilas and decide to jump on the ITG/Twintake band wagon because its what everyone else is doing and claims of higher bhp etc with them.
For what its worth, my car made 337bhp (at the wheels) with a Dbilas (Revo S2+ 2.0T K04 Cupra) :happy2:. I recently changed to an Evoms as I wanted more intake noise. I chose Evoms as it uses a large cotton cone rather than a foam filter as seen on the ITG, and it is less "home made" looking than the ITG. The Twintake is an expensive option, and being honest, I cannot see how the second intake is going to catch that much air having seen one fitted to a car.
There is also the 3" VF Intake option with the Evoms cone modification which is recommended for cars with the GIAC Extreme Plus file.
I made a custom Twin set-up and i make 308 bhp and 307tq (280 bhp at the wheels) on my K03 along with my other mods, up from 280 bhp and 289 tq with Dbilas.
Twin-intakes definetly work.
Mine's is a mix of Forge and Dbilas.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FDSCN0031.jpg&hash=da7e4b8e05e9004cce51ee897879602606403a36)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FDSCN0039.jpg&hash=0b379815c8eadef434837e50a2c6cf82f6b84ded)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FDSCN0032.jpg&hash=d3f996315fff4dc17cc1bbc897d5312cc720341b)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FDSCN0038.jpg&hash=66ab7a2179da268ad0088005c3c4a3ba63dda174)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi864.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FIMG_0074.jpg&hash=922785ed7350d916a181f7aa087f01bc1d46452e)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi864.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FIMG_0072.jpg&hash=8396eac9772cac6a723fbb55446b637b3834caa1)
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^^^^ Nice. Whats the noise like? Have you modified your front Dbilas brackets?
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:scared: :scared:
I wouldnt want to hit a puddle or drive behind another cars spray with that lower filter. That must be a recipe for water ingress into the air intake system.
If you made gains then good for you, but there is no way id be happy with that. Also congrats on the output. thats the most powerful k03 ive seen to date :wink:.
Also another point as well is looking at your filters, you have two different brands/styles of filter-one panel/1 cone. these wil have different flow characteristic causing more disruption where the two air flows meet, there is an array of different sizedhose connections to disrupt air flow even more
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:scared: :scared:
I wouldnt want to hit a puddle or drive behind another cars spray with that lower filter. That must be a recipe for water ingress into the air intake system.
If you made gains then good for you, but there is no way id be happy with that. Also congrats on the output. thats the most powerful k03 ive seen to date :wink:.
Also another point as well is looking at your filters, you have two different brands/styles of filter-one panel/1 cone. these wil have different flow characteristic causing more disruption where the two air flows meet, there is an array of different sizedhose connections to disrupt air flow even more
.... x 2
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FDetailing%2FStickers%2Fsmiley_Eeek.jpg&hash=82c68a5e8566af3235e79535383c382a24044113)
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^^^^ Nice. Whats the noise like? Have you modified your front Dbilas brackets?
Sounds really meaty and Breathy, but not annoyingly so. Has a very nice sound along with exhaust that makes it sound alot more fruity than a 4 cyclinder has any right to.
Front brackets are unmodified.
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:scared: :scared:
I wouldnt want to hit a puddle or drive behind another cars spray with that lower filter. That must be a recipe for water ingress into the air intake system.
If you made gains then good for you, but there is no way id be happy with that. Also congrats on the output. thats the most powerful k03 ive seen to date :wink:.
Also another point as well is looking at your filters, you have two different brands/styles of filter-one panel/1 cone. these wil have different flow characteristic causing more disruption where the two air flows meet, there is an array of different sizedhose connections to disrupt air flow even more
This is england so i have already been through snow, wind, rain and sunshine, all with out any problems. I have had this intake for a while now.
I had the original Forge CAI and was to my knowledge the first Leon with it fitted, also allowing me it really, really cheap, as i was the Leon ginuepig in the Forge pic. I ran this intake for over a year (maybe more) with no problems at all, in the same location the second filter is located.
It just works mate.
I had two intakes lying around and could'nt decide which was better. My original Forge intake flowed better than my Dbilas up-top and sounded much better (IMO) but my Dbilas had better throttle response, especially at motorway speeds. I wanted the best of both worlds. I had an idea, grew a fat pair and tried it.
And it worked. :congrats:
Throttle response is much better, mid-range pulls very hard and top-end is nice and smooth, and it sounds much better than my Dbilas or Forge when they were on there own. Lots of Darth Vader noises.
Power band is very, very smooth and the car flows over 215gs at the maf. This intake will be following me to big turbo land.
Intake temps do not rise above 20*c and is at 17*c at redline.
Here is Dyno run note how smooth it is. :happy2:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FIMG_0067.jpg&hash=e2ae4e9b28e2ce23236076b04bfc5579c258c728)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FIMG_0063.jpg&hash=aadfd44153151c6277d2c8730f2e8a3e71157c82)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FIMG_0064.jpg&hash=afc8b6d95232b54c7ffd60160600997363c37b8b)
:happy2:
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I find it puzzling why your peak torque appears to occur at around 4.4k rpm on a k03. I would expect this with a bigger turbo and not a k03. :confused:
My peak torque occurs at around 3.2k rpm with a stage 2+ revo map allbeit with higher numbers than your results.
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bacilus is right about the peak torque as well.
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@acespizee : thats some intake thanks for sharing , well done :happy2:.
In terms of 'smooth' curves though thats just how the software is set, easily manipulated, the graphs from various tuners vary widely in the smoothing applied (as do power readouts lol).
however the numbers seem very healthy. Have you been on any other dynos
@everyoneelse : whilst I would agree water intake is a potential problem on low flung intakes, its worth considering that this may be reduced significantly on any 'twin' design.
I may be corrected here, but on a
1 : single design if you block the intake (with water) theres no option but for it to hoover the H20 into the bores :surprised:
2 : twin design , the lower intake may 'block' and attempt to suck but never get very high
(it takes a lot of vaccum to raise water x inches) , whilst the upper intake is still open.
you need a closed system to have a real detrimental effect.
I would liken it to trying to drink some diet coke from a glass using a Y piece with only one of the 'twin' side in the glass.....
makes sense to me but Im no expert!?!
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I find it puzzling why your peak torque appears to occur at around 4.4k rpm on a k03. I would expect this with a bigger turbo and not a k03. :confused:
My peak torque occurs at around 3.2k rpm with a stage 2+ revo map allbeit with higher numbers than your results.
I dont know why my torque peak is so high, i am Revo stg2+ aswell. I have never understood why some people make more torque than me. Car starts to shift at about 2200 rpm. According to boost gauge i get full boost around 2500 rpm. low-end seems really healthy on the road. I guess my car likes power more than torque. Still enougth to come on boost quicker and take down sub-360 bhp Evo's. :happy2:
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I wonder if you ever logged your requested and actual lambda with vcds as, IMO, after looking at the AFR on your printout, you should probably run your fuelling a tad richer i.e. use F8 instead of F9.
My understanding is that the RR AFR tends to be slightly leaner than when logged using vcds.
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@acespizee : thats some intake thanks for sharing , well done :happy2:.
In terms of 'smooth' curves though thats just how the software is set, easily manipulated, the graphs from various tuners vary widely in the smoothing applied (as do power readouts lol).
however the numbers seem very healthy. Have you been on any other dynos
@everyoneelse : whilst I would agree water intake is a potential problem on low flung intakes, its worth considering that this may be reduced significantly on any 'twin' design.
I may be corrected here, but on a
1 : single design if you block the intake (with water) theres no option but for it to hoover the H20 into the bores :surprised:
2 : twin design , the lower intake may 'block' and attempt to suck but never get very high
(it takes a lot of vaccum to raise water x inches) , whilst the upper intake is still open.
you need a closed system to have a real detrimental effect.
I would liken it to trying to drink some diet coke from a glass using a Y piece with only one of the 'twin' side in the glass.....
makes sense to me but Im no expert!?!
Thanks mate, I usually take the car to TSR in bridgewater. The car produced 203 bhp and 212 tq stock. With just Revo stg2+, Dbilas, S3 I/C, SFS hoses, Forge DV, 3" ATP decat D/P to stock cat-back, Neuspeed pulley and HPFP the car made 280 bhp and 290 tq on there MAHA Dyno.
I then took the car to circuit motors by Castle Combe for a dyno day with some friends from my car club Performance Bristol. The car produced 279 bhp and 289 tq on the Dastek Dyno, leading me to beleive it to be very accurate. I also had a sligt boost leak as i was only getting 18 psi.
Next added Forge I/C to S3, Milltek cat-back to my ATP D/P, Custom intake, RS4 Valve, PCV to exhaust, fixed boost leak and i now have 308 bhp and 307 tq on the same Dastek Dyno. :jumping:
I will post up:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FIMG_0075.jpg&hash=5b0f4b0e5593c42a64702487b6c598b885fd8b37)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FIMG_0077.jpg&hash=15633c820a151ce1e1fb403ab94f89f77b7945c4)
I had more torque low-down before but, the extra more than compensates. :party: :party: :party:
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I wonder if you ever logged your requested and actual lambda with vcds as, IMO, after looking at the AFR on your printout, you should probably run your fuelling a tad richer i.e. use F8 instead of F9.
My understanding is that the RR AFR tends to be slightly leaner than when logged using vcds.
I heard VCDS aint accurate for lambda on the Vortex. I hear you on the lean runninig as the dyno operator pointed this out to me aswell. I have been running fuel setting 8 since, i have not logged to check yet tho.
I may even start running fuel 7 but will log first, thanks for pointing that out tho mate. :happy2:
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@acespizee : thats some intake thanks for sharing , well done :happy2:.
In terms of 'smooth' curves though thats just how the software is set, easily manipulated, the graphs from various tuners vary widely in the smoothing applied (as do power readouts lol).
however the numbers seem very healthy. Have you been on any other dynos
@everyoneelse : whilst I would agree water intake is a potential problem on low flung intakes, its worth considering that this may be reduced significantly on any 'twin' design.
I may be corrected here, but on a
1 : single design if you block the intake (with water) theres no option but for it to hoover the H20 into the bores :surprised:
2 : twin design , the lower intake may 'block' and attempt to suck but never get very high
(it takes a lot of vaccum to raise water x inches) , whilst the upper intake is still open.
you need a closed system to have a real detrimental effect.
I would liken it to trying to drink some diet coke from a glass using a Y piece with only one of the 'twin' side in the glass.....
makes sense to me but Im no expert!?!
Thanks mate, I usually take the car to TSR in bridgewater. The car produced 203 bhp and 212 tq stock. With just Revo stg2+, Dbilas, S3 I/C, SFS hoses, Forge DV, 3" ATP decat D/P to stock cat-back, Neuspeed pulley and HPFP the car made 280 bhp and 290 tq on there MAHA Dyno.
I then took the car to circuit motors by Castle Combe for a dyno day with some friends from my car club Performance Bristol. The car produced 279 bhp and 289 tq on the Dastek Dyno, leading me to beleive it to be very accurate. I also had a sligt boost leak as i was only getting 18 psi.
Next added Forge I/C to S3, Milltek cat-back to my ATP D/P, Custom intake, PCV to exhaust, fixed boost leak and i now have 308 bhp and 307 tq on the same Dastek Dyno. :jumping:
I will post up:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FIMG_0075.jpg&hash=5b0f4b0e5593c42a64702487b6c598b885fd8b37)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fab210%2Facespizee%2FIMG_0077.jpg&hash=15633c820a151ce1e1fb403ab94f89f77b7945c4)
I had more torque low-down before but, the extra more than compensates. :party: :party: :party:
Nice work mate and nice figures... :congrats:
BUT, you stated this in your first post...
I made a custom Twin set-up and i make 308 bhp and 307tq (280 bhp at the wheels) on my K03 along with my other mods, up from 280 bhp and 289 tq with Dbilas.
Twin-intakes definetly work.
Then this..
I then took the car to circuit motors by Castle Combe for a dyno day with some friends from my car club Performance Bristol. The car produced 279 bhp and 289 tq on the Dastek Dyno, leading me to beleive it to be very accurate. I also had a sligt boost leak as i was only getting 18 psi.
Next added Forge I/C to S3, Milltek cat-back to my ATP D/P, Custom intake, PCV to exhaust, fixed boost leak and i now have 308 bhp and 307 tq on the same Dastek Dyno. :jumping:
I'm not sure you can claim over 20bhp difference over the 2 intakes when you have added all the new bits and more importantly fixed a boost leak :confused:. Which could make a difference of 1bhp upto who knows... :surprised:
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its a shame you fitted those SFS hoses along with everything else. I would have been really interested to see how they performed
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Nice work mate and nice figures... :congrats:
BUT, you stated this in your first post...
Sorry, was just answering questions. :happy2:
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its a shame you fitted those SFS hoses along with everything else. I would have been really interested to see how they performed
In short, they needed a bit of modification to stop the radiator fan from chopping it up when they swell, so they were not very well thought out. I think they went through two revisions.
They are quite large in diameter so they flow well compared to the crappy smashed and kinked OEM pipes.
They are even more modified now to suit the intercoolers.
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The Dbilas is proven to flow over 350 bhp so i am not saying it aint acheivable with one filter, im just saying my intake is performing way better than i ever expected, sounds nicer than i expected and gives the car a much more noticabley fully rich power band. I have had the Dbilas back on as i still have my black original pipe, gave the car about 2 days with it on to adapt, the car felt noticably flatter and did not have the same top-end or mid-range tug.
Twin-intake back on, response, character and performance was back. :fighting: