MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Technical Workshop => Topic started by: mattyw on May 07, 2010, 10:49:54 pm

Title: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: mattyw on May 07, 2010, 10:49:54 pm
hi all when you fit r32 front calipers do you use the gti brake hoses or do you need r32 brake hoses?
cheers matt
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Hedge on May 07, 2010, 10:56:26 pm
R32.
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Janner_Sy on May 07, 2010, 11:03:42 pm
probably not that much more expensive to get yourself a set of braided hoses instead of R32 hoses.    think daveB des good rates on them
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: mattyw on May 07, 2010, 11:25:11 pm
cheers for the reply's lads,i have sent dave b a few messages but never replies
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: gazbutS3 on May 07, 2010, 11:26:15 pm
he flys for a living so is away sometimes :smiley:
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on May 09, 2010, 07:35:10 pm
probably not that much more expensive to get yourself a set of braided hoses instead of R32 hoses.

Braided hoses will serve absolutely NO purpose on any road car!
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Dubtek on May 20, 2010, 07:18:12 am
And the theory behind that is??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :confused:

They serve as a great cost effective improvement to any road car....

Braided - Last a lifetime, all manufacturers offer a lifetime warranty anyway even if they didnt. Made with stainlesss steel braided hose and fittings, and dont expand under heat/pressure. Improve pedal feel, and remove 'spongey' element. Made in the UK.

Rubber - Expand under heat/pressure causing less efficient braking, corrode in 5-10 years without fail depending on usage/location, made with mild steel fittings. No warranty/guarentee against failure/corrosion whatsoever. Made in the Far East normally.

Oh, and as already said, braided replacements normally work out cheaper than OEM replacement rubber hoses!

Other than that, yes, braided hoses serve no purpose at all on a road car.... :happy2:


probably not that much more expensive to get yourself a set of braided hoses instead of R32 hoses.

Braided hoses will serve absolutely NO purpose on any road car!
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on August 30, 2010, 02:56:52 pm
And the theory behind that is??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :confused:
Proven automobile engineering - and not sales targets like you are chasing.


They serve as a great cost effective improvement to any road car....
They may provide a visual improvement, but they CATEGORICALLY do NOT provide any performance advantage.


Braided - Last a lifetime, all manufacturers offer a lifetime warranty anyway even if they didnt.
And . . . . I strongly doubt that ANY owner would - be they use standard rubber hoses OR braided hoses - wear out a brake hose!


Made with stainlesss steel braided hose and fittings,
Erm - many are NOT made with stainless steel fittings.  Many are made with annodised aluminium - and these corrode terribly!


and dont expand under heat/pressure.
And neither to OEM rubber hoses.


Improve pedal feel, and remove 'spongey' element.
Again - pure BS.  Any 'spongey' feel to a brake pedal is more likely to be down to flexing of single piston brake calipers - and has jack schit to do with OEM rubber hoses.


Made in the UK.
What, like Leyland/Rover cars . . . sorry, but I'd rather have something produced in Germany, to TUV standards.


Rubber - Expand under heat/pressure causing less efficient braking,
Sorry, but that is pure BS, and a categoric myth peddaled by sales peeps.  Perhaps you would like to inform all those you are misleading that OEM rubber hoses are internally braided (usually with a kevlar or nylon mix) - and do NOT expand.  (providing the rubber hoses have not suffered physical damage)/


corrode in 5-10 years without fail depending on usage/location,
Really - and your facts are from where.  I've worked on many 'ageing' fleets of vehicles - often parked up for many years, and then had to recomission them - and at no time, did I have to replace brake hoses within your 10 year timescale.


made with mild steel fittings.
More BS.  They are actually zinc plated.  And they will categorically outlast braided hoses with annodised alloy fittings.


No warranty/guarentee against failure/corrosion whatsoever.
Really - so why do new VAG cars have a three year warranty?  And why do all genuine VAG parts have a two year warranty?  And what about the Kia five year warranty, or the Vauxhall lifetime warranty?  I really think you have overloaded the 'Bull-sh!t-ometer'.


Made in the Far East normally.
Again, more BS.  Your facts are . . . .

For the record, VAG (along with Ford, Vauxhall, Renault, Peugeot, Sh!troen, etc) OEM rubber hoses are generally made in Germany by ATE - which is part of Continental AG.


Oh, and as already said, braided replacements normally work out cheaper than OEM replacement rubber hoses!
Comma engine oils are cheaper than OEM, Halfrauds engine oils are cheaper than OEM, CarPlan engine oils are cheaper than OEM, Champion spark plugs are cheaper than OEM.  They are all cheaper than OEM because they are INFERIOR to OEM.

So yes, braided hoses may be cheaper than OEM - but that categorically does NOT make them better quality or a better 'buy' than OEM - especially if said braided hoses come with alloy connections!


Other than that, yes, braided hoses serve no purpose at all on a road car.... :happy2:
The ONLY purpose braided hoses serve on a road car is simply aesthetics.

Another FACT for you to ponder - why is it that racing motorcycles (MotoGP, World Superbikes, etc) do NOT use braided hoses?  Incase you are still in denial, three specific reasons, (a) braided hoses are much heavier than the kevlar hoses which they use, (b) braided hoses are CONSIDERABLY stiffer, and offer less freedom of movement [meaning restricting the free movement of steering and suspension] compared to both racing kevlar hoses and OEM rubber hoses, and (c) braided hoses can severly chaffe and cause damage to adjacent components [yes, you can eliminate this by applying an external PVC sheath, but this then makes them even more rigid and even more heavy].


Over to you . . . .
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: RedRobin on August 30, 2010, 03:38:53 pm
^^^^
*cough*    :popcornsoda:
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on August 30, 2010, 06:30:58 pm
^^^^
*cough*    :popcornsoda:

Want some Benalyn?  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

Sorry I missed you at this years Inters, btw.  :notworthy:
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: vRS Carl on August 30, 2010, 06:47:14 pm
Foook me TT that was some response :surprised:.

Im getting the  :popcornsoda: :popcornsoda: for this one.

@ OP Yes you need R32 hoses as the GTi ones will be stretched taut if you use them. .:R32 are slightly longer :happy2:
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: edd666999 on August 30, 2010, 07:14:04 pm
OP R32 hoses as i found out the hard way!  :signLOL:
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on August 30, 2010, 07:55:05 pm
Foook me TT that was some response :surprised:.

Im getting the  :popcornsoda: :popcornsoda: for this one.

I just get absolutely and majorly fcuked off when peeps blatantly lie about products to get a sale.  Of course, if you like the look of them, go ahead and buy them, but don't let anyone be deluded thay braided hoses give any kind of performance advantage.

And just for the record, I have braided hoses on my motor bike - made by BSR (more highly rated by bikers compared to say Goodridge, due to their two-part end fittings).  But I bought them for looks - but they are much stiffer than the OEM rubber hoses, and the b.stards are wearing away my front mudguard and my rear hugger!  :fighting:
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: DaveB@Vagbremtechnic on August 30, 2010, 10:05:06 pm
Sean

In the interests of balance and only so thats not exactly the case. HEL actually fit a lot of lines to race bikes. Theres loads of race teams they supply from MotoGP through to the triumph triple challenge, I've recently come away from goodridge to HEL for a number of reasons. HEL ONLY supply lines with stainless fittings, all the lines are teflon lined and not PTFE like the vast majority of OEM lines. On their own they wont make as much difference as say a pad upgrade but not doing them when spending hundreds of pounds on brakes always seems like buying a ticket to Lime Street and getting off at Edge Hill.

In addition sometimes we dont have a choice, if you are for example looking for a Mk5 suitable hose to say fit some porsche calipers then the only OEM hose that might fit might be the ones from the RS6 or R8 they're too long and would more than likely be more expensive.

I'm with you though generally - you see a load of lads on the Mk4 forum who think nothing of spending 50 quid on some braided hoses and then not bother changing the fluid on schedule, sometimes the way they talk they imagine like theirs an egg shaped bubble in the line when they press the pedal  :stupid:

from the website regarding the IOM  TT: if you go to HEL performance website and then MEDIA there's loads more instances...

Quote
We have supplied many of the top riders and teams on the islands and have taken results with Dunlop, McGuinness, Laverty, Martin, Hutchinson, Donald, Amor, Farquhar, Lougher and are very fortunate to have both Maria Costello MBE and Jenny Tinmouth - both amazingly talented riders and mixing it at the front of the field. This year, just like 2009, was a great year for HEL Performance on the Island and included:

Senior TT | two podiums | eight top ten | fourteen top twenty | 65% of the field

Superbike TT | two podiums | nine top ten | fifteen top twenty | 66% of the field

Superstock Race | two podiums | eight top ten | thirteen top twenty | 63% of the field

Supersport Race 1 | two podiums | six top ten | thirteen top twenty | 56% of the field

Supersport Race 2 | two podiums | six top ten | twelve top twenty | 55% of the field

Five Fastest Lap | Fastest Female | Ten Podiums | Most Successful Brake Line On The Island
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on October 16, 2010, 10:16:54 pm
Sean

In the interests of balance and only so thats not exactly the case. HEL actually fit a lot of lines to race bikes. Theres loads of race teams they supply from MotoGP through to the triumph triple challenge,
Dave, I'm not gonna deny HEL supply some race bikes - but they categorically do NOT supply MotoGP teams (OK, I'll be pedantic - HEL braided steel brake lines are not FITTED to MotoGP bikes).

And I'll come back to 'race bikes' in general later in the post.


I've recently come away from goodridge to HEL for a number of reasons. HEL ONLY supply lines with stainless fittings,
Fairy-nuff on the full stainless issue.  BSR are also full stainless steel (and BSR have the advantage of 'two-part' end fittings - meaning you can align the hoses much more accurately).



all the lines are teflon lined and not PTFE like the vast majority of OEM lines.
You plonker - you have just made a right blooper.  Teflon and PTFE are identical - Teflon is just the trademarked common consumer name for poly-tetra-flouro-ethylene - or PTFE! :P

So steel braided hoses offer no advantages over OEM rubbers on that issue then! :P


On their own they wont make as much difference as say a pad upgrade but not doing them when spending hundreds of pounds on brakes always seems like buying a ticket to Lime Street and getting off at Edge Hill.
I don't agree.  I have the factory upgraded ceramics on my RS4 - and they have the rubber hoses.  And the R8 V10 with ceramics has rubber hoses, as does the V10 twin-turbo RS6 with ceramics, and the V10 S8 ceramics . . . . seems to be a pattern - even with some of the most technically advanced brakes - ie ceramics - there is categorically no need for externally steel braided hoses.

But again, I will re-iterate my POV on the 'asthetics' issue - yes, they do look good, and if you want to fit them based on their looks - then I'm 100% fine by that.
 

In addition sometimes we dont have a choice, if you are for example looking for a Mk5 suitable hose to say fit some porsche calipers then the only OEM hose that might fit might be the ones from the RS6 or R8 they're too long and would more than likely be more expensive.
Ahhhhh - that is a very different issue.  And yes, I'd fully back you up there on that particular point.  :happy2:


I'm with you though generally - you see a load of lads on the Mk4 forum who think nothing of spending 50 quid on some braided hoses and then not bother changing the fluid on schedule, sometimes the way they talk they imagine like theirs an egg shaped bubble in the line when they press the pedal  :stupid:
So the same sort of bull$hit which dubtek was trying to peddle!  :stupid:


from the website regarding the IOM  TT: if you go to HEL performance website and then MEDIA there's loads more instances...

Quote
We have supplied many of the top riders and teams on the islands and have taken results with Dunlop, McGuinness, Laverty, Martin, Hutchinson, Donald, Amor, Farquhar, Lougher and are very fortunate to have both Maria Costello MBE and Jenny Tinmouth - both amazingly talented riders and mixing it at the front of the field. This year, just like 2009, was a great year for HEL Performance on the Island and included:

Senior TT | two podiums | eight top ten | fourteen top twenty | 65% of the field

Superbike TT | two podiums | nine top ten | fifteen top twenty | 66% of the field

Superstock Race | two podiums | eight top ten | thirteen top twenty | 63% of the field

Supersport Race 1 | two podiums | six top ten | thirteen top twenty | 56% of the field

Supersport Race 2 | two podiums | six top ten | twelve top twenty | 55% of the field

Five Fastest Lap | Fastest Female | Ten Podiums | Most Successful Brake Line On The Island


Righty - back to the 'motorbike' issue(s).

Firstly, with the greatest of respects to those who race on the 'island', the vast majority are NOT top-tier professional race teams (such as MotoGP, World Superbikes, or even British Superbikes).  Many IoM entrants are privateer 'hobby' types (similar to one of my neighbors who race preps production bikes for track days - he is a supposedly qualified vehicle mechanic - yet he serviced his mates Audi A3 1.8 20vT with mineral oil! :fighting:).  To prove my point - what hoses does Michael Rutter (BSB rider) use?  And what about all the other 'factory' supported BSB teams who go to the island????.  No, most of the IoM teams/riders will simply get sucked into the same BS about rubber lines bulging.  I re-iterate the MotoGP issue - MotoGP bikes do NOT use steel braided brake lines - they use a kevlar/nylon/plastic type hose, and have done so for about 6-8 years.

Oh, and I don't actually see HEL claiming any silverware from the top steps of the podium.! :booty:


Onto the real 'engineeering issues' between cars and motorbikes.   An average car such as a Golf has about 8-10 metres of rigid steel brake pipes.  And they will generally have a total of less than half a metre of 'flexy' hoses.  So on an average car - the 'flexy' hoses generally account for about 5% of the total length of brake fluid system.  Onto motorbikes - motorbikes invariably have 100% flexy hoses - ie, the entire connection from the master cylinder to the caliper is a rubber flexy.  (This is usually accepted as the norm for rear brakes, but sometimes front brakes may have a metal 'bridge' section for the split between the two calipers).   So basically - the 'need' for steel (or similar) braided flexy brake lines is considerably more important on a motorbike than on a car.


Now, onto the 'human interface' issue between bikes and cars.  Unless you have had a car specifically adapted for disabled hand controls, then the brakes are applied by a foot.  But on a motorbike, the front brakes are applied by hand - the right hand, and invariably just two fingers.  Now, speak to any professional expert in the field of human ergonomics, and they will ALL state that the human being has massively more 'sensativity' in the 'mechanics' of operating things by hand, compared to operating the same things by foot (again, there is a very acute and distinct exemption - again disabled, referring to those folks upper limb deformities who use their feet for painting/writing/eating/typing etc).  What this means is that a motorcyclists 'brake hand' will be far more able to sense any 'bulging' (perceived or actual) in flexy brake hoses - compared to the numbed senses of the car drivers right booted foot.  To back up this issue, look at the many detractors of the DSG gearbox, and the particular issue of the 'kickdown' in manual mode - the kickdown switch is a very definate 'step' on the throttle pedal - yet these peeps can't seem to operate the throttle pedal, with the required foot dexterity, to wide open throttle without also mashing the kickdown switch.  A bikers hand is massively more sensative to the potential of bulging brake hoses compared to a dumb car driver!
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Hedge on October 16, 2010, 10:30:42 pm
:indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent: :indifferent:
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: DaveB@Vagbremtechnic on October 16, 2010, 11:00:51 pm
Hi Sean

Sorry had to bite  :signLOL:

From the HEL website (admittedly)

Quote
We have been very fortunate to have been connected to some of the teams in Moto GP, Moto 2 and the 125cc championships but due to confidentiality agreements we are unable to list all of those on our pages. Great result for the Mark VDS Team in Moto 2 at Indianapolis with Scott Redding on the podium with third place - and with HEL Performance lines.

Inmotec - Moto GP

Mark VDS - Moto 2

Maxtra - 125cc


But anyway.....

Good catch on the teflon - im an idiot no surprise - Goodridge used to use the convoluted lines on their brake kits - HEL use the smooth bore stuff. Terminology aside

But getting back to the practicalities of brake upgrades as mentioned above if you need a 90 degree M10x1 ended hose then the only ones I can think of are of an R8 or an RS6 hose from an OEM source,  which not having the lengths published makes buying OEM at £50 per corner a bit of a gamble.......Im sure you wouldnt advocate hoses either too long or too short, on custom hoses as well its possible to specify a mid line fitting which fits into the bracketry on the upright just as the OEM GOLF hoses do increasing safety. Rather that than an OEM R8 line tie wrapped to the ABS sensor wire

So in many ways theres no other option upgrade or not
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on October 17, 2010, 01:22:42 am
Hi Sean

Sorry had to bite  :signLOL:
We're all guilty of that!  :happy2: :grin:



From the HEL website (admittedly)

Quote
We have been very fortunate to have been connected to some of the teams in Moto GP, Moto 2 and the 125cc championships but due to confidentiality agreements we are unable to list all of those on our pages. Great result for the Mark VDS Team in Moto 2 at Indianapolis with Scott Redding on the podium with third place - and with HEL Performance lines.

Inmotec - Moto GP
WHO ????

Now they are banged to rights on 'fabricating' false claims.  Categoric proof - find Inmotec here please: http://www.motogp.com/en/teams/MotoGP

I've been a fairly avid follower of MotoGP (and 500GP) technology for many years.  There are NO braided steel lines on any 2010 MotoGP bike


Mark VDS - Moto 2

Maxtra - 125cc
OK, Moto 2, and 125GP are two very different classes of bikes to the big boys MotoGP bikes.  MotoGP are like Formula 1 on two wheels - the absolute ultimate in prototype technologies.  But 125GP, due to their diminutive power outputs, are not demanding on brakes - high corner speeds, and maintaining gained speed at all costs - is key to 125 riding style.  Moto 2 bikes basically have a standard 600cc Honda 'control' engine, with emphasis on custom chassis development - sort of going back to the old school ethos of building a bike out the back of a transit van - though granted things have moved on.

Anyway, were thrashing this issue do death.


But anyway.....

Good catch on the teflon - im an idiot no surprise - Goodridge used to use the convoluted lines on their brake kits - HEL use the smooth bore stuff. Terminology aside
Never been a fan of Goodridge, so cant comment on on them.  But HEL, just like BSR, along with OEM rubber hoses - are
all smooth bore.  :happy2:


But getting back to the practicalities of brake upgrades as mentioned above if you need a 90 degree M10x1 ended hose then the only ones I can think of are of an R8 or an RS6 hose from an OEM source,  which not having the lengths published makes buying OEM at £50 per corner a bit of a gamble.......Im sure you wouldnt advocate hoses either too long or too short, on custom hoses as well its possible to specify a mid line fitting which fits into the bracketry on the upright just as the OEM GOLF hoses do increasing safety. Rather that than an OEM R8 line tie wrapped to the ABS sensor wire

So in many ways theres no other option upgrade or not

I'm sure I've always agreed with you on these particular issues.  Custom hoses definately are the right way to go in these scenarios.  :happy2:




One final thing to ponder - remember the Metro 6R4 rally car?  Brakes were designed and made by AP racing (as were they on the original Metro road car) - even on the rally car, the hoses (two per front caliper, with a wierd 3 bleed nipples per caliper) were conventional rubber flexies with an external black plastic spiral reinforcement . . . .
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: G60s GO on October 28, 2010, 10:27:23 pm
WOW............. What a right old carry on.   :scared:

Got to love your passion TT, It certainly makes entertaining reading. :happy2:

Just for the record Inmotec are bidding to become the first Spanish manufacturer to compete in MotoGP, who originally had their racing debut pencilled in for the Catalunya Grand Prix in July before taking in a handful of other rounds over the remainder of the season. This hasn't materialised due to the ecconomic downturn, but development has continued with the plan to compete in 2011  :drinking:


Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Dubtek on August 28, 2011, 12:18:48 pm
Just spotted all this on the hoses and thought seen as its BSB time right now...

FYI.....

www.helperformance.com (http://www.helperformance.com) - See right hand column......Official BSB Suppliers. Our lorry is in the paddock at EVERY BSB round, and yes, Michael Rutters bike has HEL hoses on it right now at Cadwell. As does...

Byrne
Kiyonari
Jessop
Brookes
and 23 others.....

Not 100% convinced? See www.britishsuperbike.com (http://www.britishsuperbike.com) - Pumped money into BSB for 2 years now.

Totally agree with some of your comments and appreciate what you are saying BTW, not the bit about us trying to peddle a sale though, was merely putting my point of view across, exactly as you did. Only visit this forum out of personal interest in VAG products myself being an owner of a MK5, most of my working week is consumed with all things hose related so dont get to visit that often these days.   :happy2:

Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: rich83 on August 28, 2011, 12:24:56 pm
Im amazed that MotoGP bikes don't have braided lines. Even my brothers Triumph street triple R had braided lines.
Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Dubtek on August 28, 2011, 01:39:13 pm
Not looking to open another can of worms or interested in the I know more than you debate, but not everything that was written was 100% technically correct about Moto GP hoses. Lets just say when the value of a car (F1) or bike (MotoGP) is such that it is, teams tend to produce in house (works teams particularly) or at least have a strong 'closed door' involvement in their manufacture to know exactly in their own minds the spec of each part of the kit, rather than relying on someone like ourselves to produce it first.

That said the debate for fitting Kevlar covered lines to save a few more grammes at that level over braid is valid, but not on road bikes, if its of interest here's why, taken from our HEL site - http://www.helperformance.com/info/kevlar.php (http://www.helperformance.com/info/kevlar.php)

Title: Re: R32 Brake hoses
Post by: Andy on August 28, 2011, 02:48:00 pm
All I know is my r32 brakes are all oem flexi pipes and am happy with my brakes and better now I ave changee the brakes :signLOL: