MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Sunglasses Ron on May 12, 2010, 12:32:56 pm

Title: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Sunglasses Ron on May 12, 2010, 12:32:56 pm
Very interesting against VW's claims.  :surprised: Especially as Steve Sutcliffe is the boy at these tests and knows how to get the best out of a manual car..



Or can be a good comparison for the Mk5 I suppose. Only other comparisons i've seen are these ones (which we've all seen)..




Not sure if this is on the Mk6 Forum yet, but thought you boys who are thinking of changing may be interested ( + don't think it's a repost  :ashamed:).
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: mackit on May 12, 2010, 12:44:55 pm
Yay...DSG.  :congrats:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Poverty on May 12, 2010, 12:47:34 pm
The only thing that worries me with DSG, is that they occasional some cars get syncromesh issues, and obviously if the car is modded, and the stealers look hard enough they might just blame it on the mods.

DSG is amazing stuff though
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Hurdy on May 12, 2010, 12:58:19 pm
You see, this is what all us DSG fanboi's have been banging on about for aaaaaaggggggeeesssss!!

Also the Manual would be knackered after slipping the clutch constantly and flatshifting to try and achieve what the DSG does naturally :P
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: NB07 on May 12, 2010, 01:05:22 pm
DSG rulez!  :congrats:

Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: tony_danza on May 12, 2010, 01:07:15 pm
The gamble of a broken DSG not getting repaired is only the same as the clutch upgrade cost when you've reached a certain BHP modding it... swings and roundabouts.
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Saint Steve on May 12, 2010, 01:31:55 pm
Oh dear!!!. Im gonna sit on my "old Mans" hands on this one  :signLOL:

Great Find Ben :happy2:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Top Cat on May 12, 2010, 01:34:55 pm
Not point going the pod though in a DSG.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: PDT on May 12, 2010, 01:36:55 pm
Test is a big fail anyway, looks like it was tested on a very wet road with a poor surface. as a comparison between the 2 transmission options its a valid test but for 0-60 timings its not.
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Saint Steve on May 12, 2010, 01:46:52 pm
^^^^ Same conditions for both cars??? No doubt same tyres, age and mileage.

I think a very good comparision personally......

But there again, i collect my Bus pass and Heating allowance next week  :wink:

Dam quick us old buggers

Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: mackit on May 12, 2010, 01:55:19 pm
Very true.  Where i live the roads are pretty poor generally speaking and lets face it in this country....blummin wet roads most days!! 

I guess what it possibly shows is the DSG is easier to get the full performance out of the car from standstill as well as being more consistent.

I well rehearsed, competent manual driver may well be able to achieve consistent times.  Having said that, Steve Sutcliffe is a pretty competent driver so contradicts that argument.  :rolleye:

Anyhow...I'm a hand fisted so and so, so DSG makes life easier for me.   :happy2:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Sunglasses Ron on May 12, 2010, 01:56:35 pm
Test is a big fail anyway, looks like it was tested on a very wet road with a poor surface. as a comparison between the 2 transmission options its a valid test but for 0-60 timings its not.

Same car, same conditions, but more importantly they're both 4WD.. If it the same test with the Rocco R then I could undersatnd. But I don't think the wet would make any odds with regards the difference in times.
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: NB07 on May 12, 2010, 02:19:54 pm
i can see what PDT means its the fact the 0-60 times are not valid due to the surface. everyone knows DSG is faster  :happy2:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Sunglasses Ron on May 12, 2010, 02:36:52 pm
i can see what PDT means its the fact the 0-60 times are not valid due to the surface. everyone knows DSG is faster  :happy2:


Yeah hairy muff. Didn't read his post properly to be fair.. Still don't think it'd make up 6-7/10ths on a dry road though..
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: tony_danza on May 12, 2010, 02:40:07 pm
Manual was a more-door lard arse, probably had a sunroof too.... *whistles whilst walking away.
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Hurdy on May 12, 2010, 02:41:04 pm
Not point going the pod though in a DSG.  :laugh:

Please explain  :confused: :grin:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Hurdy on May 12, 2010, 02:42:01 pm
Manual was a more-door lard arse, probably had a sunroof too.... *whistles whilst walking away.

You know you want one Mike :wink:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: tony_danza on May 12, 2010, 02:44:26 pm
Manual was a more-door lard arse, probably had a sunroof too.... *whistles whilst walking away.

You know you want one Mike :wink:
Ha ha!

I was going more along the lines of VW supplying different press cars to stack the cards in one's favour, to make more people buy DSG.
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: mackit on May 12, 2010, 02:50:02 pm
What is the weight difference between a 3 and 5 door variant? 

One thing to perhas balance the cards is that the DSG gearbox is 20-30kg heavier than the manual isn it not?
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: tony_danza on May 12, 2010, 02:57:39 pm
I don't know, t'was more tongue in cheek and you're right about the box.

Stands to reason more doors and a big lump of toughened glass with the mechanisms etc weigh more than 1mm steel though.
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: PDT on May 12, 2010, 03:19:47 pm
My comment regarding the times being invalid is based on the presenter having a whinge that the times he achieved werent anywhere near VW's claimed times.

Fair point, but I bet VW didnt get their times on a soaking wet road with what looks like a bad surface. A bit like me dyno testing a car with a claimed 200bhp and it only achieving 180bhp because I dyno'd it with wet tyres that causes slip.
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: mackit on May 12, 2010, 03:37:57 pm
Fair point, but I bet VW didnt get their times on a soaking wet road with what looks like a bad surface. A bit like me dyno testing a car with a claimed 200bhp and it only achieving 180bhp because I dyno'd it with wet tyres that causes slip.

Very true.  :happy2:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: TonyZed on May 12, 2010, 04:21:36 pm
^^^^ Same conditions for both cars??? No doubt same tyres, age and mileage.

I think a very good comparision personally......

]But there again, i collect my Bus pass and Heating allowance next week  :wink:

Dam quick us old buggers



That can't be right, I thought I was the oldest Gti driver in Southampton!! :jumpmove:

TonyZ
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Saint Steve on May 12, 2010, 04:36:53 pm
Another fellow Southamptoner :happy2:

Welcome again Tony  :happy2:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: animal on May 12, 2010, 04:37:26 pm
The gamble of a broken DSG not getting repaired is only the same as the clutch upgrade cost when you've reached a certain BHP modding it... swings and roundabouts.

£300-400 for an extended third party warranty is well worth it IMHO - I will be sure I take one out. More than pays for it's self if/when the MCU gives up.

It's somewhat ironic that some 90% or so of the problems with DSG are actually design faults (faulty MCU) rather than people blowing them up by exceeding the mythical torque limit of the box due to sending too much power through it, which is what everyone seemed to be worried about in the early days. Mechanically they seem to be pretty robust - its the mechatronics that are the weak link.

Despite VW UK's attitude to the DSG problems, I can confirm that VW are very very aware of the problems that exist. Just like they are VERY aware of the issues with FSI engines gunking up their inlet valves.

EDIT: I'm from Soton orginally too... And my R was registed at Peter Cooper as well  :happy2:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: chungster on May 12, 2010, 05:03:20 pm
until they bring the premium of the DSG option down a bit...i won't be speccing it (however good it is)

well unless i start earning mega bucks then the £2k won't bother me  :signLOL:

Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Hurdy on May 12, 2010, 05:05:52 pm
until they bring the premium of the DSG option down a bit...i won't be speccing it (however good it is)

well unless i start earning mega bucks then the £2k won't bother me  :signLOL:



it is a £1350 option. :happy2:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: chungster on May 12, 2010, 05:18:13 pm
still needs to come down a bit more  :grin:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Poverty on May 12, 2010, 06:05:19 pm
The gamble of a broken DSG not getting repaired is only the same as the clutch upgrade cost when you've reached a certain BHP modding it... swings and roundabouts.

£300-400 for an extended third party warranty is well worth it IMHO - I will be sure I take one out. More than pays for it's self if/when the MCU gives up.

It's somewhat ironic that some 90% or so of the problems with DSG are actually design faults (faulty MCU) rather than people blowing them up by exceeding the mythical torque limit of the box due to sending too much power through it, which is what everyone seemed to be worried about in the early days. Mechanically they seem to be pretty robust - its the mechatronics that are the weak link.

Despite VW UK's attitude to the DSG problems, I can confirm that VW are very very aware of the problems that exist. Just like they are VERY aware of the issues with FSI engines gunking up their inlet valves.

EDIT: I'm from Soton orginally too... And my R was registed at Peter Cooper as well  :happy2:

yeah they seem to handle the power fine, just seems that some people, especially on the TT forums keep having reoccuring issues with the dsg
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Poverty on May 12, 2010, 06:07:15 pm
The gamble of a broken DSG not getting repaired is only the same as the clutch upgrade cost when you've reached a certain BHP modding it... swings and roundabouts.

Last I heard VAG wont repair dsg boxes, but just fit replacements? Can people work on the DSG unit yet?

The clutch of the DSG doesnt worry me, its just the mechatronic units which can be troublesome,

New manual box is 2k, and they will want the old one aswell, new DSG box must be about 3-4k?
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: animal on May 12, 2010, 06:29:04 pm
The gamble of a broken DSG not getting repaired is only the same as the clutch upgrade cost when you've reached a certain BHP modding it... swings and roundabouts.

Last I heard VAG wont repair dsg boxes, but just fit replacements? Can people work on the DSG unit yet?

The clutch of the DSG doesnt worry me, its just the mechatronic units which can be troublesome,

New manual box is 2k, and they will want the old one aswell, new DSG box must be about 3-4k?

MCU is £1600 on it's own and is normally what they replace first. I know of one instance on an R32 where VW stumped up £1000 even though the car was out of warranty. In the US I think there was a formal recall and the replacement MCU is warranted for 10yrs! Shame we don't have the Class Action Law Suit over here otherwise we might get a similar result!
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: jamiekip on May 12, 2010, 07:43:33 pm
Nice find Ben ;)


 :signLOL:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: candy turbo on May 12, 2010, 07:52:25 pm
6 or 7 tenths of a second!!!!!! , how could you live with that  :laugh: you speed freaks make me laugh  :grin:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Sunglasses Ron on May 12, 2010, 08:16:52 pm
Nice find Ben ;)


 :signLOL:

Tell you what mate, if I wasn't on the ball...  :signLOL:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Sunglasses Ron on May 12, 2010, 08:22:33 pm
6 or 7 tenths of a second!!!!!! , how could you live with that  :laugh: you speed freaks make me laugh  :grin:

Believe it or not Ian, that would be fairly noticeable on the road, especially if the difference also continued to get greater as the speed rises and more changes were involved.
It depends which way you look at it I suppose. I would class say 4 car lengths between 2 cars to 100mph for instance, as being a fair bit quicker. Where as some people who can still see the other car a mile up the road class that as being "not a lot in it"..  :signLOL:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: jamiekip on May 12, 2010, 08:23:08 pm

Tell you what mate, if I wasn't on the ball...  :signLOL:

 :happy2:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Poverty on May 12, 2010, 08:50:43 pm
my mates s3 dsg used to nearly make up for the fact that mine was revod and his wasnt. Awesome stuff.
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Rich on May 12, 2010, 09:09:31 pm
DSG is the way forward...


They didn't even do the new Ferrari Italia in Manual  - only DSG   :innocent:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Vick N on May 13, 2010, 10:30:01 am
Wish I got dsg :( stupid mrs didn't like the sound of not habit a clutch!!! Lol. 
 :fighting:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Sunglasses Ron on May 13, 2010, 10:56:02 am
my mates s3 dsg used to nearly make up for the fact that mine was revod and his wasnt. Awesome stuff.

Same when my two mates had a side by side blast at Brunters. One had a Revo Stage 2+ S3 3dr, the other had a Revo Stage 1 S3 Sportback S-Tronic (DSG) and upto about 120-30 there was less than a car length between them..  :surprised: The Stage 2+ was clearly the quicker car in gear and noticably made ground. But as soon as he changed gear, the ground he made was near enough completely cancelled out and he wasn't slow on the stick either (bloody quick in fact).  :surprised:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: cmdrfire on May 13, 2010, 12:15:31 pm
DSG is the way forward...


They didn't even do the new Ferrari Italia in Manual  - only DSG   :innocent:


DSG is the way forward, but the 458 Italia has a single-clutch sequential manual 'box. The Ferrari California has a twin-clutch unit similar to BMW's DSC as it was more in line with the character of that car.
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: T88OMM on May 13, 2010, 12:29:22 pm
my mates s3 dsg used to nearly make up for the fact that mine was revod and his wasnt. Awesome stuff.

Same when my two mates had a side by side blast at Brunters. One had a Revo Stage 2+ S3 3dr, the other had a Revo Stage 1 S3 Sportback S-Tronic (DSG) and upto about 120-30 there was less than a car length between them..  :surprised: The Stage 2+ was clearly the quicker car in gear and noticably made ground. But as soon as he changed gear, the ground he made was near enough completely cancelled out and he wasn't slow on the stick either (bloody quick in fact).  :surprised:

Stage 2+ S3 S-Tronic is blindingly quick.............................................when the turbo works  :scared: :scared:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: jonnyc on May 13, 2010, 12:38:51 pm
DSG is the way forward, but the 458 Italia has a single-clutch sequential manual 'box. The Ferrari California has a twin-clutch unit similar to BMW's DSC as it was more in line with the character of that car.

458 Italia uses a 7 speed dual-clutch gearbox developed by Getrag..  :happy2:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: cmdrfire on May 13, 2010, 12:54:22 pm
DSG is the way forward, but the 458 Italia has a single-clutch sequential manual 'box. The Ferrari California has a twin-clutch unit similar to BMW's DSC as it was more in line with the character of that car.

458 Italia uses a 7 speed dual-clutch gearbox developed by Getrag..  :happy2:

Crap, you're absolutely right, my mistake. I was thinking of the 599GTO.
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Sunglasses Ron on May 13, 2010, 01:48:42 pm
my mates s3 dsg used to nearly make up for the fact that mine was revod and his wasnt. Awesome stuff.

Same when my two mates had a side by side blast at Brunters. One had a Revo Stage 2+ S3 3dr, the other had a Revo Stage 1 S3 Sportback S-Tronic (DSG) and upto about 120-30 there was less than a car length between them..  :surprised: The Stage 2+ was clearly the quicker car in gear and noticably made ground. But as soon as he changed gear, the ground he made was near enough completely cancelled out and he wasn't slow on the stick either (bloody quick in fact).  :surprised:

Stage 2+ S3 S-Tronic is blindingly quick.............................................when the turbo works  :scared: :scared:

Can't wait to test mine now..  :jumping:
What's up with your blower Tom???  :confused:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: jonnyc on May 13, 2010, 01:49:47 pm
Crap, you're absolutely right, my mistake. I was thinking of the 599GTO.

Ha no worries.. That 458 is just beautiful.. Absolute master piece!
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: animal on May 13, 2010, 01:53:14 pm
The gamble of a broken DSG not getting repaired is only the same as the clutch upgrade cost when you've reached a certain BHP modding it... swings and roundabouts.

Last I heard VAG wont repair dsg boxes, but just fit replacements? Can people work on the DSG unit yet?

The clutch of the DSG doesnt worry me, its just the mechatronic units which can be troublesome,

New manual box is 2k, and they will want the old one aswell, new DSG box must be about 3-4k?

Yes
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: T88OMM on May 13, 2010, 01:59:20 pm
my mates s3 dsg used to nearly make up for the fact that mine was revod and his wasnt. Awesome stuff.

Same when my two mates had a side by side blast at Brunters. One had a Revo Stage 2+ S3 3dr, the other had a Revo Stage 1 S3 Sportback S-Tronic (DSG) and upto about 120-30 there was less than a car length between them..  :surprised: The Stage 2+ was clearly the quicker car in gear and noticably made ground. But as soon as he changed gear, the ground he made was near enough completely cancelled out and he wasn't slow on the stick either (bloody quick in fact).  :surprised:

Stage 2+ S3 S-Tronic is blindingly quick.............................................when the turbo works  :scared: :scared:

Can't wait to test mine now..  :jumping:
What's up with your blower Tom???  :confused:


It's fooked I think  :scared: :scared:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: Sunglasses Ron on May 13, 2010, 02:04:43 pm
Bits off and back to Audi then?  :wink:
Title: Re: Manual Vs DSG (Golf R)
Post by: T88OMM on May 13, 2010, 02:25:48 pm
Bits off and back to Audi then?  :wink:

Indeed  :wink: