MK5 Golf GTI
General => Product Reviews => Topic started by: RedRobin on January 15, 2009, 09:13:58 pm
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We all love that lowered look on our modded GTI's. It makes our ride, and consequently us, look uber-cooool. Race cars are always slammed down on the deck as far as they can be, but always in consideration of the whole suspension's functionality - It isn't just for 'the look'. Sooner or later on that slippery slope of modding, you will make a pit-stop for suspension - It's a fundamental and important part of achieving a whole package which delivers a tactile and well balanced car which is a pure joy when driving enthusiastically. Responsibly driven, it also makes a safer car.
WHY:
Upgrading my stock suspension to KoniFSD dampers plus Eibach Pro-Kit springs and anti-roll bars was done at a very early stage. Koni's FSD system provided an excellent compromise between Harder-for-Performance versus Softer-for-Comfort and did so very cleverly by smartly (instantly) responding hydraulically (not electronically) to the road surface. I had one of the first KoniFSD sets for the Mk5 GTI, but 50,000 miles later they started to deteriorate and Koni had already revised their versions.
http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/suspension.jsp?make=Koni&model=FSD+Damper+Set (http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/suspension.jsp?make=Koni&model=FSD+Damper+Set)
So, they needed replacement. Awesome in Manchester, where I originally bought them, have been extremely helpful as always but explained that, though under lifetime warranty, they would have to go back to Koni in Holland for confirmation of their failure so they could be replaced. With the other mods my car now has I really couldn't face both the effort and extra cost of changing back to my standard VW suspension (Sachs dampers) and I had no guarantee that Koni would agree that their FSD's had failed. So I had the perfect excuse to upgrade to another suspension system.
SOURCING:
Obviously Bilstein are probably the best there is but are expensive and have more adjustability than I need as I don't do regular track days. KW's are probably the next best and having worked with Mark Farmer at VWRacing/RacingLine for my Quaife diff, it was a no-brainer to go to VWR. They run both the Volkswagen Racing Cup and Formula Ford competitions and probably have more experience of the Mk5 platform than anyone else in the UK. They also have close working relationships with VW in Germany.
If I needed yet more reasons to use VWR, they have a technical partnership with KW in Germany - They are twintube which is unusual for a 'street' damper but allows better adjustments. The valving and setting parameters on mine are as on the race cars. They are adjustable but to settings exclusive to VWR as a result of extensive testing on their race cars. My spring rating is exclusive too (hence the different colour). This particular version of the V3 has been produced exclusively for VWR and is designed for 'Fast Road' use.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR-KW-V3s.jpg&hash=1735b0ad7e0dd6888417d716cd152a3f2cf5bdbb)
Although they are growing their 'Fast Road' market, their priority is of course to racing commitments, and so it tends to be a matter of being flexible and fitting in with their busy schedules rather than "I want to have it done next Monday and it needs to be done in x number of hours". But rest assured that, in my experience on more than one occasion, VWR/RacingLine will treat you extremely well and give you their undivided attention regardless of whether you are paying them thousands to convert a brand new Scirocco to a full-on race car or just having a new set of brakes.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_Sciroccos.jpg&hash=6b9febc1ca58f47b739766233774341670125aa7)
INSTALLATION:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FRR_arrival.jpg&hash=0cdea54da464da23d79fec4ea342dc82721fa543)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_1.jpg&hash=b31f047df7f7875802e9801a603ad6fb065757e9)
^ On arrival it didn't take long to get working on my car ^
My existing suspension was pretty well 'stuck on'! Simon did most of the installation - He's a real enthusiast and is currently building a Mk2 GTI with a VR6 engine.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FWALK_UpsideDown.jpg&hash=e2f0a0f80c65b62020251d4f74f1c2afef213aad)
^ Simon was constantly smiling while working! ^
It made sense to fit my Whiteline AntiLift Kit in the same workshop session.
As VWR's experience is particularly race focussed, it results in a number of practices which have very positive advantages. One of them is assembling components with lots of appropriate grease so that they can be easily replaced in the future. Another is their eagle-eye for spotting wear and the condition of components. The racing environment puts everything under extreme stresses and it's important to maintain everything in best working condition.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR-KW-V3_front.jpg&hash=c1e14f470938e4f83bbac4fd70aab698121d2b14)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR-KW-V3_rearL.jpg&hash=8cb2f7451fd8349c0e861900d66a4ff80a41c236)
Mark anchored my KoniFSD's to the bench and discovered that he could compress the hydraulics by hand! He also pointed out evidence of leakage and suggested the seals had failed. Good news because it means that Koni will doubtless confirm the same and replace them with new ones without fuss.
We kept my Eibach Anti-Roll Bars.
Knowing he would get on with Mark, I had invited a good mate of mine - Dan, who started BIALI Motorsport - to join us for the day. So, encouraged (ordered!) by Mark, Dan and I spent quite a lot of time going off in their demo GTI - Very fully loaded and 330 neddies. Dan is used to a modified Mk4 R32 and so we shared driving. I'd drive out and he'd drive back. We went out three times and of course hated every second of it! Dan's .:R has KW-V3's too.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FBIALI%2FVWR_DemoDanR32.jpg&hash=e1c9615bfd7729df19cfbbb9145afdb1c159c386)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FBIALI%2FDan1_VWR.jpg&hash=29280b96a5a663368983e9c03bb9424db75fe91c)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FBIALI%2FRRBlackHorse.jpg&hash=ef6f6d3d9bd9bc49ff86be9ece1aec5b267d96ed)
SUSPENSION SETUP:
After the installation was done, it was time for Mark to apply his expertise in setting up the suspension. This involved alignment and corner-weighting - So it was string and bags of sugar (very BIALI-style). First the corner weighting which involves a weight scale under each wheel and a digital readout of the weight at each corner.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FCentre-Weighting.jpg&hash=ad37552ce2226205ab53080ac763f7a8b1f3cb32)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_Weightingpre.jpg&hash=49a37fadcce2fc342e018e231db2a13de7b957ff)
^ The corner-weights readout before adjustments were made ^
Mark then asked me to sit in the car to add my weight and also noted that there was three-quarters of a tank of fuel.
He then adjusted my suspension settings to take account of this info.
Next came the piece of string. I had asked Mark if they used a laser alignment rig such as BeissBarth and he said no, he used string, which is the 'old school' method. He pointed out that at a race you couldn't easily carry around a big laser rig.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_AlignmentSetup.jpg&hash=118325bdbf8682f13401c42f3815fa76815b1874)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_Alignment.jpg&hash=c09f9d826e3dba6b47598b83fa8fd86aee359379)
Then it was time to take the car out on the road to settle the suspension before checking alignment again.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_JobDone.jpg&hash=11058f98fcf48c8814699b2b3f13c988324a729c)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FIMG_4121.jpg&hash=70160c3c21ab165718279d98ef118a4e9e7867f3)
^ However, I didn't expect they would race my car around the workshop! ^
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_collection.jpg&hash=f3f80f5b44faf742d195145cab99d710a65cdcfd)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_FordRS_cockpit.jpg&hash=81fd9700926dd11518200ca483a6dddc7740253c)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_FordRS.jpg&hash=96dd7cb9a91c59ae7ac0697d71d2e83b0152b6e6)
^ But now I know why all those other race cars were there ^ [Yes, that Beetle is what you think it is!]
Then it was my turn to take my car out and check it was alright. Fortunately Milton Keynes has lots of roundabouts and so I was able to go round a few - Some I did several times at once! The road was greasy, she remained as flat as a pancake and the Quaife very quickly blew out the TC light. Nice!!!!
ALTERNATIVES CHOICES:
Obviously there are a lot of suspensions to choose from. Bilstein, KW are the top ones in my opinion but Eibach have a good reputation. The KoniFSD's are excellent and a superbly practical compromise. It's very much down to personal choice according to what you want to achieve and how you use your car.
I would strongly advise against the cheaper lesser established brands and also it's important to check the results of independent corrosion tests - Bilstein and KW do the best, though KW race dampers are galvanised and so not a good choice for a long term road car.
MINUS POINTS:
For me there aren't any except that I wouldn't dare use most indoor public carparks because of the steep ramp angle changes. But those were often dodgy in my car as it was.
For me this isn't a minus point, but some people wouldn't like the ride either as a driver or passenger - I can feel every manhole cover and cats-eye but I like the feedback and the ride isn't harsh - It's just 'nobbly'. My daughter doesn't know I've changed the suspension and has made no comment on the ride even on the rough road we live on, and she's very focussed on cars at the moment as she's learning to drive and will be taking her test soon.
Some may think that £1,550 (all inclusive) is expensive - I wouldn't! I'd say it's very good value for money and I feel both safer and happier to have had Mark's experience in setting it up. The V3's have a reputation for being tricky to get right.
My garage access is now a problem : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FGarageRamp_Problem.jpg&hash=8e9097e31e2bdbf32e7248931529cf38dc68c4f1)
But I solved that problem : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FGarageRamp_Solution.jpg&hash=de940da36d3e949e10f86090d9ebdc01948c1d2f)
^ A separate ramps review will follow [I'll link it from here when posted] ^
PLUS POINTS:
No bodyroll, extremely flatly planted, excellent feedback. The feel of the ride coupled with the sound of the Milltek add up to an even more taut and tactile driving experience. Although much less powerful than the VWR/RL 'Fast Road' demo GTI, my car now feels not that hugely different in the way that it handles, but although I'm more confident than I was in the VWR/RL car, I haven't explored its full potential but we didn't hang about! Both cars feel very controllable. But, of course, the demo GTI has extra camber and that will make a difference when pushed hard.
If I have any problems I know that VWR/RL will look after me very well. I absolutely love driving, so I love my car and I want to have the confidence of knowing it's well looked after by other enthusiasts who have the specialist skills and this also keeps me and my daughter potentially safer.
Yes, the lower look does suit the car better but it's the ride which I think is more important.
SUMMARY:
My brief to Mark had been to feel free do what he knows best but keep it practical for the road and not give me any uneven tyre wear problems and expenses. Clearly he has done exactly that and put a huge grin on my face.
I drove home the 170 miles in the dark and mostly on A-roads, so the next morning I spent out on some local B-roads which are slightly rough in places - I wasn't disappointed!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FMonza18s_Smoked.jpg&hash=5ca4caecc47ef4bdf5e33b66b2082dbe8bf66031)
^ BEFORE ^
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FRED_VWR-KW_sideL.jpg&hash=2b7240dd2bfaa3e626a43f834b1816e233280217)
^ AFTER ^
:happy2: 8) :happy2:
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Wow.... :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: Now thats what I call a write up - haven't read it yet, but wanted to be the first to reply :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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That is your best write up yet Red leader and i love the ramps to put it in your garage your neighbours must think you have finally flipped. :grin:
Excellent (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi294.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fmm104%2Ftomashandmilly%2Fimages-4.jpg&hash=6d659e056ce8a90176c9cdfeac4a7d0beb20ac22)
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Awesome write up Red :happy2: looked like a fun day.
1420kg def a useful number. Good to see VWR take pride in their work, waiting for the LSD GB :innocent:
Those ramps are gonna annoy after a while I reckon :grin: you need that adjustable suspension you posted a while back :wink:
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Really enjoyed reading that Robin, thanks mate :happy2:
P.S. Your car does look ready for business with that lower stance! :party:
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I wonder if JKM did this corner weight thing when I had Bilsteins put on. I knew about it at the time and just assumed they would.
Can't wait to get my Quaife, Brakes and Engine Mounts done in Feb/March - that should finish the car off apart from a lavishing of CF parts and rear LEDs though I'm going off the LEDs atm as they look too silver/bling esp on a black car.
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Looks great mate and great post :happy2:
Was that a New Beetle RSI in the background of one of the shots? Wicked car 4 wheel drive with the 3.2 out of the R32 :happy2:
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great write up :happy2:, are vwracing in milton keynes then red robin??
I dont live far from there :jumpmove:
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great write up robin and the ride height looks 8) i have found having to go 5 miles or less over a speed hump is worth it for the look and better handling when your out on the open roads.
as for corner weighting I really wanted this myself but regal did not offer it, most places will charge extra for this and is very difficult to find a place which does, though as gaz said best way to set up coilovers
so thanks for tip robin, and those extra blue polly bushes look especially :drool:
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That is your best write up yet Red leader and i love the ramps to put it in your garage your neighbours must think you have finally flipped. :grin:
....Yes! The neighbour who has the garage next to mine is an ex-Police driver, back in the days of the early Mk Jags - He was laughing out loud this morning but he respects my driving attitudes and knows I love my car.
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Awesome write up Red :happy2: looked like a fun day.
1420kg def a useful number. Good to see VWR take pride in their work, waiting for the LSD GB :innocent:
Those ramps are gonna annoy after a while I reckon :grin: you need that adjustable suspension you posted a while back :wink:
....Cheers, buddy - As I posted elsewhere, your structure guide is extremely helpful in writing a review :happy2:
Yes, pride and love of their work is exactly what VWR/RL are all about. We're all enthusiasts here, and that's what the guys at VWR are too. But so are others like JKM for example.
I know for certain that KW will bring out their High Lift System eventually and that through VWR they'll be able to substitute my springs and exactly match their rating. But until such time I'm happy to accept the ramps - I'm never in that much of a hurry nowadays.
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smashin write up RR, looks tops, and sounds like a top mod. Suprised you had it set that low to be honest, looks mint :happy2:
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Really enjoyed reading that Robin, thanks mate :happy2:
P.S. Your car does look ready for business with that lower stance! :party:
....Thanks, Nathan. Adding camber would make it look even more 'purposeful' but I don't want the extra tyre wear hassle. Afterall, I don't have a racing team's tyre budget!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FRED_VWR-KW_Abbotsbury.jpg&hash=04098fe9a40d03fc4778c91afb768b0325e512da)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_Mk4GT.jpg&hash=fe099d308be320afb46cc931b9403a84cfcabf02)
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What have they done to that red and white Rocco Robin it looks (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Ftomashandmilly%2FDaft_stuff%2Ficon-relax.gif&hash=4eb96fbd3f3c155ddc1698472221972f363fd5d0)
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I wonder if JKM did this corner weight thing when I had Bilsteins put on. I knew about it at the time and just assumed they would.
....I wondered that too.
Can't wait to get my Quaife, Brakes and Engine Mounts done in Feb/March - that should finish the car off apart from ....
....Are you planning on going to VWR for that? Their own brakes are expected to be ready in a few weeks.
I'm going for their VWR engine mounts next.
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Looks great mate and great post :happy2:
Was that a New Beetle RSI in the background of one of the shots? Wicked car 4 wheel drive with the 3.2 out of the R32 :happy2:
....It certainly is! There's a whole lot more interesting toys I haven't posted pics of.
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great write up :happy2:, are vwracing in milton keynes then red robin??
I dont live far from there :jumpmove:
....Yep - MK, the land of roundabouts!
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Great Write up Robin :happy2:
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great write up robin and the ride height looks 8) i have found having to go 5 miles or less over a speed hump is worth it for the look and better handling when your out on the open roads.
as for corner weighting I really wanted this myself but regal did not offer it, most places will charge extra for this and is very difficult to find a place which does, though as gaz said best way to set up coilovers
so thanks for tip robin, and those extra blue polly bushes look especially :drool:
....When going to someone like VWR who have proven expertise, it makes sense to outline what you would like to achieve but give them the freedom and trust to do what they know best. My brief was "practical for road use and no extra tyre wear". If I find it too low I know I can go back to them and they'll re-adjust it, but I think I would have already discovered problems yesterday morning when I went out looking for them!
If you insist on overriding expert advice, that's when you can get problems. It's also why I would never attempt this myself, even if I had workshop experience - It's not the installation which benefits so much from skill but the suspension setup afterwards which is all-important and actually critical in achieving results.
I'm very, very surprised to hear that Regal don't offer corner-weighting - Afterall they ran the winning VW Racing Cup Mk5 GTI last season! I'm assuming that Regal themselves did all the race preparation on that car.
When you think about it logically, corner-weighting does help.
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smashin write up RR, looks tops, and sounds like a top mod. Suprised you had it set that low to be honest, looks mint :happy2:
....Cheers, gaz :happy2:
I left it up to Mark - He knew I wanted it to be practical for fast road use and I trust his judgement.
Sure, there are places I can't go (like indoor carpark higher levels) but on Eurotunnel I can always go on the lower deck.
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What have they done to that red and white Rocco Robin it looks (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Ftomashandmilly%2FDaft_stuff%2Ficon-relax.gif&hash=4eb96fbd3f3c155ddc1698472221972f363fd5d0)
....I don't know the detail except that it's race prepared. The black one next to it is at strip-out stage and was supplied straight from the client as a new standard oem car.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_Scirocco_cockpit.jpg&hash=a64621ce7518bf7c694c8536da2e122fcab5dce3)
^ This is the interior - I think you might describe it as slightly hardcore!
Dan got a better pic - He had a digital big Canon kit, I just had a small pocket FujiThingy : -
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FDanR32%2FBIALI%2FIMG_4063.jpg&hash=33885f561654f37f81de74b8403b4e2779bcd57c)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FDanR32%2FBIALI%2FIMG_4066.jpg&hash=d500ec10fc67fff0ef98f2a6daa0c24cb92a674d)
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great write up robin and it's got me thinking of going to them for the diff doing
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great write up robin and it's got me thinking of going to them for the diff doing
....Well, I would certainly highly recommend them! They are about £50 more than others but very experienced.
And no-one better suggest asking for a group buy discount because they simply don't need it and it gets insulting. They stick to their original quotes and they give you a 200% job.
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I wonder if JKM did this corner weight thing when I had Bilsteins put on. I knew about it at the time and just assumed they would.
....I wondered that too.
They probably didn't :grin: :grin: :grin: Otherwise they'd told me and/or charged me. I'm at JKM on Monday to get an S3 Intercooler fitted and Revo Stage 2+ :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: I'll probably have two settings - one for when I want to take it easy with low boost and another for the track/enthusiastic driving. Won't be able to exploit the power until I get an LSD sorted though.
Can't wait to get my Quaife, Brakes and Engine Mounts done in Feb/March - that should finish the car off apart from ....
....Are you planning on going to VWR for that? Their own brakes are expected to be ready in a few weeks.
I'm going for their VWR engine mounts next.
I'm going to VWR for my Quaife, engine mounts and most probably brakes too... unless I can spend the money on brakes on a better set than they supply... I rang another well-known tuner regarding the Quaife just to see what they would charge and although they were £300 cheaper than VWR for the whole job, I felt uneasy talking to the guy as he really didn't seemed that clued up and they're meant to be VAG specialists! And no it wasn't JKM - they've been excellent so far.
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^^^^
£300 is a big difference! I went to VWR, JKM, and APS for quotes and there was only about £50 difference. I trust all those three.
DSG is more expensive than Manual Quaife - Mine is DSG.
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Absolutely first class write up.
Do you think the WALK kit has enhanced your diff any more, the poly bushes alone will give more control, but I'm interested to hear how the two compliment each other?
I did laugh with the string alignment job, I've seen something similar before and when it was stuck on a laser job at a later stage... it was bang on! You can't beat old school methods.
I have a firm belief (like you) thet you get what you pay for, sure VWR might charge £xx amount more, but they know what they're doing and you pay extra for the confidence. Some other tuners it just gets farmed out to the monkeys they have in the back on minimum wage and you just have to hope it was done right, a quick search on forums can provide plenty of examples of when they haven't.
In short, I love your car and I love your ethos to modding it. It sets a good example!
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And no-one better suggest asking for a group buy discount
lol , some muppet already did in a previous post :wink: , too late
Agreed that something like the LSD should only be fitted by a place thats done it before, I dont fancy being the guinea pig for that fitment. Given my location, the only place closest that has fitted one is VWR.
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good write up red good to see VWR really look after there customers
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great write up rr, may b tempted to go for a few toys from them in the summer. would you mind taking me out in your car at santa pod meet? there are some really nice twisties 2mins from santa pod.
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i have sent VWR an email for the diff and a clutch doing :happy2:
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good write up red good to see VWR really look after there customers
I know who I'll be taking my car to! :wink:
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great write up red car looks alot better as well :drool: i also dont think thats a bad price at all
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Absolutely first class write up.
Do you think the WALK kit has enhanced your diff any more, the poly bushes alone will give more control, but I'm interested to hear how the two compliment each other?
....Unfortunately, because it made sense to fit the WALK in the same workshop session, it's too difficult for me to assess in a meaningful way.
However, the steering does feel a bit firmer and she turns in extremely well. But my Quaife also plays an important (major) role in my car's handling. Mark and I still plan to go up to Bruntingthorpe and I think he will be able to judge it better than I can.
There's no doubt in my mind that the combination of the new suspension with the WALK and Quaife, all expertly setup by Mark, deliver excellent handling. But the trade-off is feeling every manhole cover etc - Not harshly but merely that it's there! I love that feeling of being firm and flatly planted, but not everybody does.
Friend Dan wrote this about the VWR/RL demo car : -
"We had a full tank and no time constraints so we just headed out with only one thing on our minds - to see how good this car was! First impressions were how civilised it was, even with a heavy duty clutch in there. I haven't driven a FWD car fast for a long time so thought I'd have to be wary of that much power going thru the front wheels. How wrong I was. The Quaife allied to a well sorted chassis had the power contained and although it was possible to spin the tyres in 3rd gear, it was all collected up before getting out of hand and you still made very rapid forward progress. Just ask the TT-S driver who we encountered (and subsequently left behind)!
In fact the Quaife for me was the most incredible part of the car. You could turn in to a corner, plant the throttle and the car just tightened its line and slingshot you down the road, giggling like a school kid. Personally speaking, this is the sort of car that would tempt me out of the MKIV R32. Its got the same rawness and feeling of connection with the road, yet its quieter cruising along, probably better mpg, and with the bodykit it has that stand out from the crowd look without being a Halfrauds special. The only complaint for me is still the noise. Whilst sounding awesome under load thanks to the uprated engine mounts, it still doesn't have that V6 warble I love so much, so fingers crossed VW get to use the 2.3 5cyl that Audi are putting in the TT-RS in the MKVI Golf.
In all we did quite a bit of a mixture of roads and both Robin and I were positively gushing about the car when we got back, so much so, I don't think Mark could take it all in so he got us to write down our thoughts to further help them focus this car for future customers. BIALI Stig - pah! Robin and Dan are Racingline test drivers! I said at the time I felt like a bit of a fraud - I mean what do I know about setting up a car but as Mark pointed out, we're real world drivers on real roads. The race track can only tell them so much about how to setup a car but this car is about being a fast road car and trackday weapon, and in this instance, Robin and I have valued input as to how it could be better. The answer for me was it couldn't get much better!"
This is from his thread on BIALI about our day : - http://biali.ritey.com/forum/index.php?topic=373.0
I did laugh with the string alignment job, I've seen something similar before and when it was stuck on a laser job at a later stage... it was bang on! You can't beat old school methods.
....I should have added in my OP that the 'string' is high-tech, hi-vis, elastic string!
I have a firm belief (like you) thet you get what you pay for, sure VWR might charge £xx amount more, but they know what they're doing and you pay extra for the confidence. Some other tuners it just gets farmed out to the monkeys they have in the back on minimum wage and you just have to hope it was done right, a quick search on forums can provide plenty of examples of when they haven't.
In short, I love your car and I love your ethos to modding it. It sets a good example!
....Cheers, buddy!
Trust, confidence, and shared enthusiasm is so important. Good aftersales service then naturally follows as simply a matter of course.
I'm not sure you'll like my 'modding ethos' when I put RACINGLINE graphics on my car!!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FBIALI%2FDan1_VWR.jpg&hash=29280b96a5a663368983e9c03bb9424db75fe91c)
My next mod is definitely VWR's 'Fast Road' engine mounts!
:happy2:
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Damn... I've GOT to stop reading threads like this, because I'm soooo tempted to spend my remaining pennies on the Quaife LSD/Engine Mounts/Brakes asap! I'll probably get the Quaife/Engine Mounts done first and then brakes last... :surprised: I should have done the brakes before all else, but my rationale is that I am driving with one eye on the limitations of the brakes.
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That's really good to hear. I'm certain it is doing something to improve it, as the dynamic camber will help the diff by providing more tyre footprint/grip, thus in turn giving it a bit more of a margin before it needs to intervene.
I honestly wish I could justify an LSD, I'm trying to keep everything on an 'easy to remove basis'.. so it's probably best if I never drive yours, or anyone else's LSD'd car!
I await with great interest to hear the Brunters results... hell, I'd be tempted to come and watch!
If I didn't have Votex, then I'd be at VWR for everything, but they're essentially the same business. Enthusiasts that set up and race cars and happen to make a living out of it on the side.
Oh, and graphics - the only sticker that should ever go on a car is small and ring shaped, once you've got your wings of course, otherwise it's bad luck! :wink:
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Damn... I've GOT to stop reading threads like this, because I'm soooo tempted to spend my remaining pennies on the Quaife LSD/Engine Mounts/Brakes asap! I'll probably get the Quaife/Engine Mounts done first and then brakes last... :surprised: I should have done the brakes before all else, but my rationale is that I am driving with one eye on the limitations of the brakes.
....Personally, I would have upgraded the brakes before Stage2 and certainly before an intercooler. A lot depends on your style of driving - I'm very light on my use of brakes except for spirited driving. But there have been inevitable times, and when you least expect them, that I've had to brake very hard and that's when I've been really glad of them.
I'd steady up and take your time and also enjoy each mod one at a time, but that's just me and we're all different.
:happy2:
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I honestly wish I could justify an LSD, I'm trying to keep everything on an 'easy to remove basis'.. so it's probably best if I never drive yours, or anyone else's LSD'd car!
....Quaife diff definitely not minor to remove! Expensive in labour to remove and replace too.
It sounds like you don't plan to keep your car as long as I do. I shan't be bothering to put my car back to standard.
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great write up rr, may b tempted to go for a few toys from them in the summer. would you mind taking me out in your car at santa pod meet? there are some really nice twisties 2mins from santa pod.
....Sure, as long as we don't miss the Phil vs Joe shoot-out.
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ROBIN, that was one awesome write up, and the car looks awesome. Very impressed and 15 mins well spent :happy2:
although i do remember about 12months ago when awesome fitted my coilovers and slammed them that when i posted pics, you slated it :laugh: and stated that its no good for the ride or the car, POT, KETTEL, BLACK? :P :P
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ROBIN, that was one awesome write up, and the car looks awesome. Very impressed and 15 mins well spent :happy2:
although i do remember about 12months ago when awesome fitted my coilovers and slammed them that when i posted pics, you slated it :laugh: and stated that its no good for the ride or the car, POT, KETTEL, BLACK? :P :P
....Cheers, Joe :happy2:
IIRC, I had the strong impression that you were only doing it for the looks, or at least primarily for the looks. I may have misinterpreted you of course.
I left how low my car would be or not, entirely to Mark's setup which took account of my brief for no uneven tyre wear or wheel arch problems and to be road-practical. The result is as it is.
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Damn... I've GOT to stop reading threads like this, because I'm soooo tempted to spend my remaining pennies on the Quaife LSD/Engine Mounts/Brakes asap! I'll probably get the Quaife/Engine Mounts done first and then brakes last... :surprised: I should have done the brakes before all else, but my rationale is that I am driving with one eye on the limitations of the brakes.
....Personally, I would have upgraded the brakes before Stage2 and certainly before an intercooler. A lot depends on your style of driving - I'm very light on my use of brakes except for spirited driving. But there have been inevitable times, and when you least expect them, that I've had to brake very hard and that's when I've been really glad of them.
I'd steady up and take your time and also enjoy each mod one at a time, but that's just me and we're all different.
:happy2:
I get what you're saying and I started on the slippery slope with the best of intentions to be sensible etc... that was before I put my foot down after having Stage 1 Revo... I wanted more and more and still do :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: The brakes aren't the cheapest of mods and my driving style is conservative most of the time so I thought I could leave them out until later - initially I had pencilled them in as one of the first things to do. Anyway, its all irrelevant as I just got a pm back from Keith at JKM who said that Stage 2+ has not been released for my ECU code as yet although he'ill keep me informed as to when it is available. :evilgrin:
I'm extremely tempted to go for the Quaife before Santa Pod though... and leave the engine mounts and brakes for one last modding session in March - does the quaife really make a very big difference in terms of wheel spin and handling?
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Also, are there any negative points regarding the Quaife?
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i spoke to vw racing today and am very happy with them and i think mine will be going there in the next few months for the diff doing and a better clutch aswell and all thanks to Robin :laugh:
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Great write-up Robin, couldn't have been any better! :happy2: :happy2:
You're just making me even more excited to get my Bilstein's and WALK fitted in March!! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
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Oh, also...
Are your V3's twintube or monotube dampers?
:smiley:
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^^^^
Illyun - In answer to your questions about the Quaife............
Absolutely no significant negative points I can think of. It's maintenance-free, not noisy though you'll hear it a little with aftermarket engine mounts. It's not practical to remove it if putting car back to stock.
It's obviously not quattro and having a Quaife doesn't stop you going off-road if you overdo it, but it greatly helps power delivery earlier out of corners. It grabs hold of slippage very very fast indeed and blows out your TC light quicker. It also greatly softens any juddering around your suspension might do, though I need more miles etc to test that with my new suspension.
It's beneficial to any FWD car with power and the fact that VW have an electronic LSD on the Mk6 confirms the need.
One of the most common road situations I see its benefits are simply when exiting a two-lane roundabout with dual carriageway continued on the exit, the road is a bit greasy and the character directly alongside you on the inside lane is wanting to get into your lane after the roundabout. Your car may have the power advantage to do it safely but you get wheelspin....Except that with a Quaife it's either no wheelspin or dealt with before you can say the word "traction".
Also if going through a fast bend you'll find that the Quaife gives you a lot of confidence in keeping traction.
Obviously it's very important to remember that your only point of contact with the road is four small patches of tyre rubber each only about the size of a CD case.
So, have fun but be safe!
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Oh, also...
Are your V3's twintube or monotube dampers?
....They look like monotube to me (see pics). < Ooops! Correction! They are twintube (shows how much I know!) which is unusual for a 'street' damper but allows better adjustments.
The valving and setting parameters on mine are as on the race cars. They are adjustable but to settings exclusive to VWR as a result of extensive testing on their race cars. My spring rating is exclusive too (hence the different colour). This particular version of the V3 has been produced exclusively for VWR and is designed for 'Fast Road' use.
I hope I'm not misrepresenting VWR when I say that most of the products they are able to offer are exclusively made for them and tested and developed on the race track. They're not a retail stockist like Awesome for example and they don't tend to stand behind anything which isn't proven directly by themselves.
Are JKM fitting your Bilsteins? Personally I wouldn't attempt the setup etc myself.
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i spoke to vw racing today and am very happy with them and i think mine will be going there in the next few months for the diff doing and a better clutch aswell and all thanks to Robin :laugh:
Ditto... spoke to Mark at VWR and he was superb from all angles - customer service/paying attention to what I saying, knew what he was talking about and a general feel of competence unlike this other tuner (not JKM I must add) that I spoke to the other day who are probably living off their past reputation... He said that VWR has had 4 e-mails and a number of phone call enquiries after Robin's write-up 8)
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Thanks for that Robin.
I'm hoping to get the Bilstein's done by Balance Motorsport, as I've heard nothing but good things about them on the forums!
Illyun - I hope this 'other tuner' doesn't end up to be Balance!!!!
:smiley: :smiley:
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^^^^
Chris - It's not Balance that Illyun is referring to.
I recommend that Balance do corner-weighting for you.
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^^^^
Chris - It's not Balance that Illyun is referring to.
I recommend that Balance do corner-weighting for you.
Good to hear!
Yeah, had a chat with them earlier this week, and they mentioned that they would do the corner weighting also!
The stance of your car looks spot on Robin! I'll be taking that photo along with me and asking them to replicate that sort of ride height on mine! But as you say, it's all about finding that balance between tyre wear, handling, looks and ground clearance! I'm much more interested in the handling aspect than anything else, but it seems that VWR have got both the handling and the looks spot on with yours! :happy2:
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^^^^
I didn't want to make too much of it in case Balance didn't do corner-weighting, but I now wouldn't go to anyone for an adjustable coilover who didn't do corner-weighting.
For what it's worth, I wouldn't tell Balance or anyone that you want a specific look or ride height - I'd be led by handling and tyre wear if for road use. The lowering will dial itself in and I think it's best to let the experts do what they know best.
But ETTO and it's not for me to tell people what they should do.
:happy2:
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Thanks for that Robin.
I'm hoping to get the Bilstein's done by Balance Motorsport, as I've heard nothing but good things about them on the forums!
Illyun - I hope this 'other tuner' doesn't end up to be Balance!!!!
:smiley: :smiley:
Nope, as RR says, its not Balance. TBH, I'm probably being a tad too harsh on them, but with garages like JKM and specialists like VWR setting the bar so high, you tend to spot anything thats less than what they offer.
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^^^^
Illyun - In answer to your questions about the Quaife............
Absolutely no significant negative points I can think of. It's maintenance-free, not noisy though you'll hear it a little with aftermarket engine mounts. It's not practical to remove it if putting car back to stock.
It's obviously not quattro and having a Quaife doesn't stop you going off-road if you overdo it, but it greatly helps power delivery earlier out of corners. It grabs hold of slippage very very fast indeed and blows out your TC light quicker. It also greatly softens any juddering around your suspension might do, though I need more miles etc to test that with my new suspension.
It's beneficial to any FWD car with power and the fact that VW have an electronic LSD on the Mk6 confirms the need.
One of the most common road situations I see its benefits are simply when exiting a two-lane roundabout with dual carriageway continued on the exit, the road is a bit greasy and the character directly alongside you on the inside lane is wanting to get into your lane after the roundabout. Your car may have the power advantage to do it safely but you get wheelspin....Except that with a Quaife it's either no wheelspin or dealt with before you can say the word "traction".
Also if going through a fast bend you'll find that the Quaife gives you a lot of confidence in keeping traction.
Obviously it's very important to remember that your only point of contact with the road is four small patches of tyre rubber each only about the size of a CD case.
So, have fun but be safe!
Thanks... I'll try and be safe :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
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....
I've been out to test my new suspension on a 44-mile circuit of local roads this morning - About 80% being twisty B-roads. The surface was damp, with wet patches but drying out - A mixture.
I'm finding that although she feels hard, not harsh or jolting, on rough surfaces at slow 10-25 mph speeds, she feels extremely smooooth at higher speeds. She feels so flatly planted that I hardly knew I'd been through those twisties, although I could occasionally feel the Quaife maintaining traction. The combination of the VWR-KW-V3's, Whiteline AntiLift kit, Quaife diff, and Mark's expert setting up, has resulted in my car feeling even more enjoyable to drive. Who cares about how big or small my bhp is!
I'm really pleased that my KoniFSD's failed!
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....
I've been out to test my new suspension on a 44-mile circuit of local roads this morning - About 80% being twisty B-roads. The surface was damp, with wet patches but drying out - A mixture.
I'm finding that although she feels hard, not harsh or jolting, on rough surfaces at slow 10-25 mph speeds, she feels extremely smooooth at higher speeds. She feels so flatly planted that I hardly knew I'd been through those twisties, although I could occasionally feel the Quaife maintaining traction. The combination of the VWR-KW-V3's, Whiteline AntiLift kit, Quaife diff, and Mark's expert setting up, has resulted in my car feeling even more enjoyable to drive. Who cares about how big or small my bhp is!
I'm really pleased that my KoniFSD's failed!
Can I be cheeky Red, if i make the pod, will you take me for a drive :smiley:
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Can I be cheeky Red, if i make the pod, will you take me for a drive :smiley:
....Not cheeky at all! My pleasure :smiley:
Luca has also asked. I shan't be putting her into a hedge though! It'll depend on conditions and I don't know the roads up there, but hopefully you'll get the general picture.
I hope you make The Pod :happy2:
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thats a great insight red, a great read! glad your happy and its money well spent! ;)
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thats a great insight red, a great read! glad your happy and its money well spent! ;)
....Yes, I realised today that just the Quaife and my new suspension has cost approx £3k. But would I do it again? - Hell yeah!!
It's good to know that my 'reviews' offer helpful/interesting info :happy2:
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Many thanks for the brilliant right up RedRobin - been very informative and interesting to read.
I was in touch with VWR couple of days before and spoke to Mark. Have to say, he really knows what he's talking about. I felt the peace of mind after speaking to Mark and now after reading your review, i'm satisfied that VWR is going to be my first port of call when modding commences. He did refer to you with the recent suspension set up you had done, and recommended to read your post about it. At first he referred to you as "Robin" so didn't know who he was talking about. Then it clicked - VWR......Robin......Forum......Red GTI......Quaife......Ah, RedRobin!
When i get the suspension sorted obviously there'll be a compromise in comfort, but how much of a difference do you think there has been from standard? Also, what difference is there between the VWR KW V3 suspension and the 'normal' KW V3?
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Many thanks for the brilliant right up RedRobin - been very informative and interesting to read.
....Thanks stiggy :happy2:
When i get the suspension sorted obviously there'll be a compromise in comfort, but how much of a difference do you think there has been from standard? Also, what difference is there between the VWR KW V3 suspension and the 'normal' KW V3?
1) - Difference in comfort from standard:
A huge difference in the feel of the ride but not seriously compromising comfort. It's never harsh, even on shallow potholes, but it is hard. The rebound is so good that even speed bumps are more comfortable because bounce is greatly reduced. Even when 'making progress' causes the car to leap a bit, she recovers so quickly and without any feeling of loss of stability - Lots of such moments might justify proper Recaro seats for more support.
At slow speeds over broken surfaces you can feel every ridge and bump but never causing discomfort. You get more intrusion from hearing the ridges than from feeling them. She is surprisingly smooth at speed and, unless you are really pushing onwards, a longer journey doesn't move you around in your seat, so it's potentially less tiring. I'm feeling road imperfections softly but definably, in the seat of my pants but not through to my back - That's what I feel but I can't speak for someone else who might tense themselves because they have a back problem or similar.
Some people (often wifeys and g'friends) prefer a softer ride (when it comes to cars!!) and this is much to do with their expectations. Sorry, but "Oooh, I felt so comfortable, I didn't feel a thing" doesn't float my boat.
It's possible that my suspension highlights any dashboard etc squeaks but that's also down to hot and cold expansions coming from an indoor garage to the cold outside.
My new suspension makes the GTI feel more tactile and gives you much more feedback than standard - Harder but not uncomfortable in my opinion. The biggest difference from standard which immediately strikes you when going through a roundabout or bend, is how incredibly flatly planted you feel. Of course the Whiteline AntiLift kit also contributes to the turn-in and anti-roll bars contribute too - It's a package.
If you are going to The Pod meet on 1st Feb you should join the queue for a ride with me!
2) - Difference between VWR-KW-V3 and standard KW-V3:
A very good question but I don't have much driving experience (mostly passenger) of the standard V3's. The VWR versions are twintube which is unusual for a 'street' damper but allows better adjustments.
The valving and setting parameters on mine are as on the race cars but mine are stainless steel instead of galvanised. They are adjustable but to settings exclusive to VWR as a result of extensive testing on their race cars. My spring rating is exclusive too (hence the different colour). This particular version of the V3 has been produced exclusively for VWR and is designed for 'Fast Road' use and durability.
VW Racing have a longstanding technical partnership with KW Germany and play a part in feeding KW information from their experience. Their working relationship allows VWR to specify what they want manufactured for themselves and so mine were ordered specifically by Mark at VWR.
All V3's are highly rated by all and their only rival is Bilstein imo. Their adjustability allows someone like Mark to apply their very valuable setting up skills and it's because of their variability that less experienced people can find them difficult to get right. You may get them good, but will you have found their sweetest spot? Doing corner-weighting is an added fine adjustment.
I'll edit this later if I find I'm wrong, but I think that VWR's versions cost the same as normal V3's retail for. VWR/RacingLine are NOT in the market of offering cheap deals - They're not an off-a-shelf retailer, they primarily build VW race cars and also organise races. Yes, I paid a total which was more than it could have been by going elsewhere but I don't have a clue how to set up a car's suspension to its optimum and I completely trust VWR's work and value their specialist skills and excellent aftercare. My GTI is in good hands, as indeed it is with JKM for tuning and my VW dealer Loders for servicing and general help.
Finally, we are all individuals on this forum and not everyone here wants their GTI (I include Ed30 of course) to feel 'tactile' and in touch with the tarmac! Not everyone here loves the sounds of exhaust music and an engine breathing. Not everyone wants to work their gears and exercise their suspension. But if you do, doing this suspension mod will transform your car and your driving enjoyment [together with a Quaife, big brake kit, etc etc etc etc....Sorreeeeeeee! :evilgrin:]
As you would expect, Mark at VWR/RL is always busy but he is a genuine lover of cars (and bikes) and if you are prepared to be flexible in fitting into their race priority schedules, they will give you 200% attention and apply very valuable skills based on VW experience.
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^^^
That has been really helpful - thanks :happy2:
What you say there is exactly how i would want the car to behave and i'm pleased to read how your car performs. While the original chassis setup of the car is very good, i do feel that the car "rolls" in corners especially when pushed hard - so it's reassuring to hear that the car is flatter in the bends. I would love to feel the grip more and the extra feedback in the steering wheel would be great. The only dilemma i now have is this - as it stands i am mostly a chauffeur when driving the car, mostly to my parents and they both don't like a hard ride - the oem setup is quite comfortable for them, so i don't know how this new setup is going to change things. Ideally i would like a demo of a car with this setup on and i'd love to come to the pod to see your car RedRobin (thanks for the offer by the way :smiley:) and see everyone else's beast (and all the faces that drive these beasts :driver:) but unfortuneately won't be able to attend. So i may ask VWR if i can have a demo in their car (if they will allow me to, whenever it is convenient for them). I was initially looking at the koni + eibach setup but have read reviews that the konis don't last as long as others (including KW) and i'd like a more long term suspension setup, so it's either the KW or Bilstein for me - and the Bilstein give a very harsh ride supposedly (anyone correct me if i'm wrong though).
I think this forum will get me bankrupt very soon :jumping: (Right, where's this thread about DSG remaps i've heard so much about....... :evilgrin:)
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Bilstein give a very harsh ride supposedly (anyone correct me if i'm wrong though).
I have Bilstein PS9s and on the softest setting, they are quite firm. I have them on a medium setting and on that, they are very firm :evilgrin: :evilgrin: Probably not the way to go if your parents like a comfortable ride.
I think this forum will get me bankrupt very soon
I'm almost there myself :scared:
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Bilstein give a very harsh ride supposedly (anyone correct me if i'm wrong though).
I have Bilstein PS9s and on the softest setting, they are quite firm. I have them on a medium setting and on that, they are very firm :evilgrin: :evilgrin: Probably not the way to go if your parents like a comfortable ride.
I think this forum will get me bankrupt very soon
I'm almost there myself :scared:
I know what you mean. We should give a prize to the first person to go bankrupt due to modding their GTI. :grin:
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^^^
That has been really helpful - thanks :happy2:
....Exactly why I've written it - To help by contributing to this forum which in turn helps me via the contributions of others.
Also there is always a selfish pleasure in giving to others.
What you say there is exactly how i would want the car to behave and i'm pleased to read how your car performs. While the original chassis setup of the car is very good, i do feel that the car "rolls" in corners especially when pushed hard - so it's reassuring to hear that the car is flatter in the bends. I would love to feel the grip more and the extra feedback in the steering wheel would be great.
....Indeed, the Mk5 chassis is very highly rated and the standard GTI's setup is excellent but it is nonetheless designed and produced for a mass market for numerous countries and 'enthusiasts' such as ourselves don't represent a huge percentage - Just consider the number of other GTI drivers you see on the road who never acknowledge another GTI and who drive like grannies - To them it's merely the top of the range Golf (excluding the R32 which is more obviously performance).
The only dilemma i now have is this - as it stands i am mostly a chauffeur when driving the car, mostly to my parents and they both don't like a hard ride - the oem setup is quite comfortable for them, so i don't know how this new setup is going to change things.
....It doesn't sound as if your parents will like the ride from what you say. It is very hard but not harsh. You don't achieve improved handling without those 'compromises'. But to some extent it's subjective and depends what you want.
There is also the factor of 'expectations' - How many others would notice without being told? Once told, they would naturally focus on it. It's like dashboard squeaks - Once you get going you don't hear them beacuse your brain is more focussed on driving, but they're still there!
Ideally i would like a demo of a car with this setup on and i'd love to come to the pod to see your car RedRobin (thanks for the offer by the way :smiley:) and see everyone else's beast (and all the faces that drive these beasts) but unfortuneately won't be able to attend. So i may ask VWR if i can have a demo in their car (if they will allow me to, whenever it is convenient for them). I was initially looking at the koni + eibach setup but have read reviews that the konis don't last as long as others (including KW) and i'd like a more long term suspension setup, so it's either the KW or Bilstein for me - and the Bilstein give a very harsh ride supposedly (anyone correct me if i'm wrong though).
....A long while ago I drove Ray West's Mk5 GTI which was specifically built for both road and track (he has an international race licence) and his had Bilstein - It wasn't harsh - It was hard. The car was cover feature in a past issue of Volkswagen Driver.
So much is down to how expertly setup a suspension is and not just the label on the damper. You can save money by shopping around for the cheapest deal and fit coilovers yourself - But how many of us here have the experience and knowledge to find that sweet spot?
:happy2:
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Robin,
Great write-up, and just the sort of detail that forums thrive on.
The only down side, in my opinion, is that the stance is now too low, for me that is. I like the before pic, and the uniform gap all the way around the front wheels, it just looks right!
As i say just my opinion, and once agian, thank you for taking the time and effort to write such an informative article.
As an aside, i replaced a lower wishbone on my old MK4, and whilst none too busy at work, tracked it the way VWR did, some string across the shoulfers of the front tyres, and get the gap the same at the rear. really high tech, and I was surprised that when I finally got around to getting the tracking sorted by laser, it required a 1/4 turn on one track rod to sort.
The old ways are still useful!
Cheers RR :happy2: :happy2:
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Robin,
Great write-up, and just the sort of detail that forums thrive on.
....Thanks, stoke - I shall continue my efforts. :smiley:
The only down side, in my opinion, is that the stance is now too low, for me that is. I like the before pic, and the uniform gap all the way around the front wheels, it just looks right!
....Yes, the stance is certainly low and Mark will very willingly change it for me if I ask. However, knowing his expertise, I didn't want his setup to be led primarily by 'the look'. My brief was : -
1 - To deliver good handling for 'fast road' use. [100% achieved!]
2 - Not to be so low it was impractical for normal road use. [So far so good, over 1,000 miles]
3 - Not to result in uneven or excessive tyre wear. [Too soon to tell]
4 - Not to result in needing wheel arch modifications. [So far so good]
VWR further fine-tuned my suspension using corner-weighting. There is slightly visible camber on the rears to help keep the back end from overtaking me! And no visible camber on the fronts.
There's a degree of irony in that I've always criticised others for slamming their cars down low, but it's not the lowness itself but being led primarily by the low look that I'm critical of. I'd rather have a car which handles extremely well regardless of its look rather than an aesthetically perfect car which doesn't handle as well as it could do with its aftermarket suspension.
But, as you say, it's ETTO and we all have our individual preferences :happy2: 8) :happy2:
As an aside, i replaced a lower wishbone on my old MK4, and whilst none too busy at work, tracked it the way VWR did, some string across the shoulfers of the front tyres, and get the gap the same at the rear. really high tech, and I was surprised that when I finally got around to getting the tracking sorted by laser, it required a 1/4 turn on one track rod to sort.
The old ways are still useful!
....I think Mark said he was only half a millimetre out and it could easily make it worse by trying to lose that.
He uses hi-vis elastic string.
I look forward to meeting you at The Pod :happy2:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FRED_RL.jpg&hash=8898169fbe9b357cb6d15ff1f15998d3c4292ef8)
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Bilstein give a very harsh ride supposedly (anyone correct me if i'm wrong though).
I have Bilstein PS9s and on the softest setting, they are quite firm. I have them on a medium setting and on that, they are very firm :evilgrin: :evilgrin: Probably not the way to go if your parents like a comfortable ride.
I think this forum will get me bankrupt very soon
I'm almost there myself :scared:
I think you have set the bankrupcy benchmark illyun, with all the mods you have recently done! I think i saw one of your alloy wheels at A1 wheels in Wolverhampton - black bbs with red stripe and red bbs centre cap. The guy showed it me as an example of the kind of job they do. Looked mint! (another possible future cause for me to get bankrupt - thanks alot! :fighting:)
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What you say there is exactly how i would want the car to behave and i'm pleased to read how your car performs. While the original chassis setup of the car is very good, i do feel that the car "rolls" in corners especially when pushed hard - so it's reassuring to hear that the car is flatter in the bends. I would love to feel the grip more and the extra feedback in the steering wheel would be great.
....Indeed, the Mk5 chassis is very highly rated and the standard GTI's setup is excellent but it is nonetheless designed and produced for a mass market for numerous countries and 'enthusiasts' such as ourselves don't represent a huge percentage - Just consider the number of other GTI drivers you see on the road who never acknowledge another GTI and who drive like grannies - To them it's merely the top of the range Golf (excluding the R32 which is more obviously performance).
To be honest, when I got the car I thought there was nothing out there that can improve on what is already a fantastic car - and I knew nothing about mods. It’s only when I started reading forums like this that i started to know more and more about my car and this has allowed me to appreciate the machine I drive more, while giving me a better understanding of my car’s potential. I think many people drive cars such as ours and don’t realise/appreciate what is actually under the skin and don’t know that forums like this exist.
The only dilemma i now have is this - as it stands i am mostly a chauffeur when driving the car, mostly to my parents and they both don't like a hard ride - the oem setup is quite comfortable for them, so i don't know how this new setup is going to change things.
....It doesn't sound as if your parents will like the ride from what you say. It is very hard but not harsh. You don't achieve improved handling without those 'compromises'. But to some extent it's subjective and depends what you want.
There is also the factor of 'expectations' - How many others would notice without being told? Once told, they would naturally focus on it. It's like dashboard squeaks - Once you get going you don't hear them beacuse your brain is more focussed on driving, but they're still there!
It’s actually my dad that’s not too keen on a hard ride (mostly), although he has been quite an enthusiast in the past - just some of the cars he’s owned in the past include a vw model 412 (which he claims has been one of his best cars), 2 old beetles, 2 mkII golfs (one of which was a golf driver that saw 210,000 miles without going wrong....much), a merc 200, a merc w123 (which is 25 yrs old, we still have and has only done 45,000 miles in mint condition....apart from some rust). But, i like your thinking - maybe if i change the suspension without letting anyone know, no-one will realise! I think the only way I can tell for sure is a demo in a car with the setup already on.
So much is down to how expertly setup a suspension is and not just the label on the damper. You can save money by shopping around for the cheapest deal and fit coilovers yourself - But how many of us here have the experience and knowledge to find that sweet spot?
:happy2:
That’s the reason why I’d like to go to VWR for the suspension and other mods. They may be slightly higher priced than the rest, but at least I know for sure i’ll get the car exactly how I want it. I think a demo in their car is the next step, which I'm going to try and organise in the next 3 weeks (after a CAT driver training course) :driver:
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....
1,000-mile REPORT:
The road where I live is very badly surfaced [I'll post a pic tomorrow] - It's used by large artic lorries and local chavs who drive too fast on it, and the council authority only ever do piecemeal repairs that don't last 12 months! It's full of ridges and shallow 'potholes' where the top surface has gone.
Everytime I drive out onto this public road my suspension feeds back this broken surface information. It's softly through the seat of my pants and via the sound - Very like a suburban railway carriage on track sections. And so I am always reminded at the beginning of a journey how hard my new suspension is and I often think that although it's neither harsh nor uncomfortable, my car is no longer a luxury hatchback. It's still got all the luxuries but it's a much harder ride.
By the time I'm onto the better surfaced roads, this is quickly forgotten. And by the time a safe opportunity comes up to drive a bit more enthusiastically and bends and roundabouts are involved, I'm reminded of my suspension again - But in the most positive way possible.
This first 1,000 miles is made up of all sorts of roads and journey times - Every kind of road except unsurfaced.
I don't know what a long journey as a passenger would feel like but I think it would only upset someone who was very fussy and probably had a pain in their arse anyway! It's limits are clearly beyond those I feel comfortable driving at on public roads and so it feels safe and very enjoyable.
It dovetails perfectly with the Quaife diff and also the Whiteline AntiLift kit. The diff greatly helped my failing Koni's but works far better with my VWR-KW-V3's. It's hard but never harsh and I really can't find fault or reason for any regrets. I'll have to wait and see how my tyre wear fares with the slight camber on my rears. Inevitably in road use circumstances, I do have to lift off in a bend sometimes and so it's reassuring to know that the camber may reduce the liklihood of me being overtaken by my rear end.
:happy2:
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....
4 months and about 4,000 miles later, I had my tyres checked yesterday and still no uneven tyre wear whatsoever due to extra camber.
This lad Mark at VWR knows what he's doing! :wink: :happy2:
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i would definatly agree with Robin here,
Ive had vwracing do alot of things to my car. new ko4 turbo, injectors, remap, LSD, engine and gearbox mounts, ptfe bushes all round. Their service is second to none. i have no complaints at all with their work. Mark is a really great guy and really knows his stuff. cant recommend them enough.
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and still no uneven tyre wear whatsoever due to extra camber.
Excuse my stupidity Robin, what extra camber have they put on your car. Have you got adjustable top mounts. :smiley:
I will be getting my set up adjusted soon and i am trying to get my head around what set up everyone has. :happy2:
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I think Robin may mean from the WALK?? Doesn't the WALK give a very small amount of negative camber also?
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i would definatly agree with Robin here,
Ive had vwracing do alot of things to my car. new ko4 turbo, injectors, remap, LSD, engine and gearbox mounts, ptfe bushes all round. Their service is second to none. i have no complaints at all with their work. Mark is a really great guy and really knows his stuff. cant recommend them enough.
Pics!!!!
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i would definatly agree with Robin here,
Ive had vwracing do alot of things to my car. new ko4 turbo, injectors, remap, LSD, engine and gearbox mounts, ptfe bushes all round. Their service is second to none. i have no complaints at all with their work. Mark is a really great guy and really knows his stuff. cant recommend them enough.
are u the guy with the grey one with the carbon bonnet?
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb308%2FRedRobin_05%2FJasonsCFbonnet.jpg&hash=0ce159b228dc45df175e02ec2916cf456d7412a6)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb308%2FRedRobin_05%2FJasonGTI_Combe_July08.jpg&hash=eed90519a8c6c06108da9de03d0959eaf986d5a3)
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and still no uneven tyre wear whatsoever due to extra camber.
Excuse my stupidity Robin, what extra camber have they put on your car. Have you got adjustable top mounts. :smiley:
....The stock GTI/Ed30 has up to 3º(exact degree needs checking) adjustable camber on the rear suspension.
I should have clarified my posted by adding that I was referring to camber on the rear and not assumed that everyone would remember my much earlier post about it.
I have no idea what camber or other settings Mark at VWR has put on my car - I leave it up to the experts.
:happy2:
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Thanks for posting my pics robin,
I forgot how good the car looked with the sun on it !!
Yes, the CF bonnet is mine.
Im putting out about 300bhp and approx 440 nm torque. before the car was all over the place with this power but now it handles like a dream thanks to the guys at racingline. needed a new ecu recently which mark put in for me.
there is a white GTI with a dark bonnet here in ongar/essex i think. ive been trying to find out who the guy is so i can have a chat about his mods....any guesses as to who this phantom might be?
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I think Robin may mean from the WALK?? Doesn't the WALK give a very small amount of negative camber also?
No, the WALK adds an extra half degree of CASTER, not camber. :wink:
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....
I had my suspension raised a small fraction yesterday to cure wheel arch rubbing (only when driving very hard) due to the change in offset between my ET51 Monza and ET48 OZ wheels. That's the beauty of adjustable coilovers.
This is a much more satisfactory way of dealing with rubbing than removing the wheel arch screws which can result in things working loose.
Trouble is that I find I'm now more inclined to push on harder through roundabouts and tight bends. I love Milton Keynes - So many roundabouts!
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RedRobin are you KW's set to full height? I've got mine on max and still is very low (it rubs on roundabouts)
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RedRobin are you KW's set to full height? I've got mine on max and still is very low (it rubs on roundabouts)
....When you say "full height" and "max" do you mean set to raise the car as high as possible or as low as possible?
It's not advisable to set adjustable coilovers to their maximum lowering. Mine are not at their maximum lowering and never have been.
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I mean that the height adjustment on the fronts is all the way up (spring is compressed)
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I mean that the height adjustment on the fronts is all the way up (spring is compressed)
....Again, never adjust all the way up (or down).
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I don't have a choice... Anything else and it rubs...
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I don't have a choice... Anything else and it rubs...
....Then, as far as I can tell from what you have said, it would seem that something is wrong with how your suspension is set up. I suggest going to see someone who knows what they are doing with suspension setups. Depending on where you are in the UK I recommend (not in order of preference):
- JKM (Portsmouth)
- AKS (Milton Keynes)
- Statller (Sheffield?)
- TTshop (Bedford)
- PDT (?)
I assume that your wheel arches haven't dropped and that the rubbing is only on the front arches. Do you have any photos of your car on its V3's?
Here's mine and it's pretty low (95mm ground clearance) and currently doesn't rub:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb308%2FRedRobin_05%2FRED_332.jpg&hash=863255dc67fe719bfc9a158cc5f2025dfb7474e1)
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1. I'm from Romania :)
2. I have an Audi A3 8P
3. mine looks pretty much the same as yours (but mine is raised!)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg195.imageshack.us%2Fimg195%2F7138%2F20263241153366890779389.jpg&hash=c625321ecb1df649158cdbc12910163c3d4971aa) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/20263241153366890779389.jpg/)
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^^^^
Sorry, but in that case I don't think I can help anymore. There's a couple of other guys on this forum from Romania who may be able to help. :happy2:
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Talked to VWR and told me that I have rear Scirocco springs which are softer (rocco is 150kg lighter on the rear). Don't know about front springs?!?
Do you know where I can get VWR springs for Golf? As VWR don't answer my emails anymore....
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Talked to VWR and told me that I have rear Scirocco springs which are softer (rocco is 150kg lighter on the rear). Don't know about front springs?!?
Do you know where I can get VWR springs for Golf? As VWR don't answer my emails anymore....
....VWR have never been good at answering emails or even phone calls but I have never experienced anything other than excellent service and work from them when at their workshop. Their principal priority has been the VW Cup race series. They are now working closely with APR and do very little workshop AFAIK.
'VWR' springs are KW. KW sponsor the VW Cup and have a "technical partnership" with VWR.
I find that the best way to communicate with VWR is to phone... phone... and keep phoning until you speak to someone there who can help. Matt Walker is extremely knowledgable.
Another thing you could do is to start a new thread (with pics) explaining your problem with as much detail as possible and asking for help. Your questions on this Review thread are probably a bit too 'buried' for many people to see them.
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Talked to VWR and told me that I have rear Scirocco springs which are softer (rocco is 150kg lighter on the rear). Don't know about front springs?!?
Do you know where I can get VWR springs for Golf? As VWR don't answer my emails anymore....
They did the reverse to me with golf springs on a rocco, fronts were practically the same, I had the reverse to ou itch back being high
They should be able to swap the springs
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Just order some KW rear springs for the V3 kit. They are exactly the same springs but yellow rather than blue.
The last 4 times I have gone to Racingline (VWR) to see APR there has been no Racingline staff there.
Speak to Adrian at Autosoft Romania as he will help you out.
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just what you need