MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Technical Workshop => Topic started by: RedRobin on May 27, 2010, 12:03:45 am
-
.
This label suggests that the factory option Recaro has part # 1K0 010 615 K:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv291%2Fanimal87%2F22052010025.jpg&hash=cabed4f2bdff5d99db321cb002c1a581801921e4)
Can anyone please confirm this, and does anyone have a link or access to an exploded view on ETKA?
It's this seat version:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FCarbonfibre%2Fcarbonvinyl_Recaro_out.jpg&hash=59a1e7ca35fca819254757c7dda9e957aaebef93)
I'm wanting to investigate disabling the tilt-release mechanisms to avoid a potential issue when using a trackday harness.
Thanks as always :drinking:
-
^^^^
Guess what!? That part # is for the label, not the seat!
Nothing informative on ETKA my friendly neighbourhood VW dealer Parts Manager tells me.
TTshop to the rescue and bossman Dave tells me all is do-able - They've had the Recaro's apart from their TT-RS build. He also says I have a very important point about the potential danger if the tilt-release isn't disabled [Thanks to *animal* for bringing this to our attention].
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb308%2FRedRobin_05%2FTTRS_12.jpg&hash=a9020a42c153a66237fbe931303c56fcc6eb9383)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb308%2FRedRobin_05%2FTTRS_09.jpg&hash=dd386269351383291c3b2a40189c1e2b4704f859)
-
Good work Robin, get yours done as a test bed then i can get mine done. :evilgrin:
-
^^^^
It's gotta be done, TC :happy2: - I'll keep this thread up to date on it.
-
:happy2:
-
^^^^
Just thinking, TC..
Yours has a Schroth Quikfit harness like mine but is a 3-door and so you need to access the back seats by tilting your Recaro's. Disconnecting the steel cable which operates the tilt release will leave the seat back locked AFAIK and so severely restrict your rear seat access.
I'm hoping to see someone today, so more later..
-
^^^^
Just thinking, TC..
Yours has a Schroth Quikfit harness like mine but is a 3-door and so you need to access the back seats by tilting your Recaro's. Disconnecting the steel cable which operates the tilt release will leave the seat back locked AFAIK and so severely restrict your rear seat access.
I'm hoping to see someone today, so more later..
The tilt function is pants anyway, and i can still use the passenger side. The baby sits up front with me so i can get round the problem.
Also i think wearing the seat belt as well should allow the harness to work properly. :smiley:
-
Also i think wearing the seat belt as well should allow the harness to work properly. :smiley:
....I don't quite understand.. My Schroth harness uses some of the same attachment points as the oem seat belt, so I don't see how you'd wear both together. Or am I missing something?
Off out now to find my coachbuilder friend and ask him about taking my Recaro apart.
-
It was only what i worked out inside my peanut, but cant you just plug the harness into the passenger side seatbelt anchor point, allowing the seatbelt to have normal usage. :happy2:
-
It was only what i worked out inside my peanut, but cant you just plug the harness into the passenger side seatbelt anchor point, allowing the seatbelt to have normal usage. :happy2:
....Aha, I hadn't thought of that. Of course it might only work if you didn't have a passenger on board. I think you'd feel somewhat subjected to bondage if wearing both oem inertia belt and Schroth harness.
My coachbuilder friend appears to be on holiday so I won't have any more Recaro tilt mech disabling info until he gets back.
-
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FRecaroETKA.jpg&hash=a3028a6347aacbfed7c238963dc419d6384548c6)
^ Looking at this, I reckon that the removal of #10/11/12 might help. We don't want to create a rattle.
-
So is the weakness 100% addressed by removing the tilt mech. Presumed the original issue is that the seats are liable to folding due to the seat having a joint and not deigned to be pulled in a different direction caused by a harness. Surely this isnt addressed by removing the adjustment? Unless the only issue is the mech releasing itself if the worse should happen.
-
So is the weakness 100% addressed by removing the tilt mech. Presumed the original issue is that the seats are liable to folding due to the seat having a joint and not deigned to be pulled in a different direction caused by a harness. Surely this isnt addressed by removing the adjustment? Unless the only issue is the mech releasing itself if the worse should happen.
I agree. That will do nothing to address the problem. :smiley:
-
So is the weakness 100% addressed by removing the tilt mech. Presumed the original issue is that the seats are liable to folding due to the seat having a joint and not deigned to be pulled in a different direction caused by a harness. Surely this isnt addressed by removing the adjustment? Unless the only issue is the mech releasing itself if the worse should happen.
....I'm inclined to think that any one-piece seat structure is likely to be safer than a folding one in the event of a crash. However, both these Recaro's and the GTI's oem folding seats (tilt back) are TUV approved and tested when used with a standard inertia safety belt which doesn't pass through any seat slots.
The potential problem occurs in the event of the belt straps (as on track harnesses) being fitted through the seat slots and then lifting under duress such that the tilt release is actioned then allowing the seat back to tilt/fold. This isn't guaranteed to happen but it would be a wise safety precaution to disable the tilt mechanism and leave the Recaro locked in an unfolded state.
We'll see what we can do and if successful I'll post a How-To.
-
So is the weakness 100% addressed by removing the tilt mech. Presumed the original issue is that the seats are liable to folding due to the seat having a joint and not deigned to be pulled in a different direction caused by a harness. Surely this isnt addressed by removing the adjustment? Unless the only issue is the mech releasing itself if the worse should happen.
I agree. That will do nothing to address the problem. :smiley:
....Am I missing something here? (see my Reply #13)
-
Robin, removing parts #10/11/12 is surely going to leave a gaping hole in the cut-out where the release handle is meant to be located? You'd probably be better of bonding them in place some how so that they can't rattle without the tension of the cable.
-
I am by know means sure, but i think its a case of under serious g-force the seat collapses. I dont think the force will just lift the latch. :smiley:
Imagine yourself sat their and there is no seat back at all, just you being held in by the harness. If you then had a head on crash your top half would still go forward but downwards as well because your shoulders would just burn on the strap and compress you downwards. Side fixings eliminates this. :popcornsoda:
I could easily be talking sh*t though. :laugh:
-
I am by know means sure, but i think its a case of under serious g-force the seat collapses. I dont think the force will just lift the latch. :smiley:
Imagine yourself sat their and there is no seat back at all, just you being held in by the harness. If you then had a head on crash your top half would still go forward but downwards as well because your shoulders would just burn on the strap and compress you downwards. Side fixings eliminates this. :popcornsoda:
I could easily be talking sh*t though. :laugh:
For what it's worth I agree, but at the end of the day, what RR wants to do is entirely up to him. As I've said before, this isn't like fitting an illegal HID kit or dodgy brakes pads that could have profound consequences for other people on the road (i.e. possibly even cause an accident) - This is a track only mod that is never (in theory) going to effect anyone other than Robin.
To quote RR himself - ETTO :drinking:
-
There are a few of us using these harness's, with Recaro's and indeed with normal seats, but still on a 3 door so i am very interested as well, in finding a solution. I just think it is going to be a big undertaking dismantling the seat and stripping out the mechanism + adding in some sort of fixed version. :smiley:
-
Robin, removing parts #10/11/12 is surely going to leave a gaping hole in the cut-out where the release handle is meant to be located? You'd probably be better of bonding them in place some how so that they can't rattle without the tension of the cable.
....Yes, that occured to me as well. But I think that if either of or all of parts #10/11/12 are removed, #13 lines the slot.
Bonding is another alternative. We won't know until we (me! or rather, my coachbuilder friend) take the seat apart.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FDetailing%2FStickers%2FDummySeat.jpg&hash=fb41fc9e362648482ee0eed31b04425d97781ebd)
-
There are a few of us using these harness's, with Recaro's and indeed with normal seats, but still on a 3 door so i am very interested as well, in finding a solution. I just think it is going to be a big undertaking dismantling the seat and stripping out the mechanism + adding in some sort of fixed version. :smiley:
....Tedious and fiddly but not a big undertaking, according to those I've spoken to who have dismantled Recaro's.
There's nothing to be added to the seat as far as I can tell (also confirmed by TTshop) because the cables operating the tilt mechanism should be able to be unattached hence leaving the seat back locked.. rigid.
-
There are a few of us using these harness's, with Recaro's and indeed with normal seats, but still on a 3 door so i am very interested as well, in finding a solution. I just think it is going to be a big undertaking dismantling the seat and stripping out the mechanism + adding in some sort of fixed version. :smiley:
....Tedious and fiddly but not a big undertaking, according to those I've spoken to who have dismantled Recaro's.
There's nothing to be added to the seat as far as I can tell (also confirmed by TTshop) because the cables operating the tilt mechanism should be able to be unattached hence leaving the seat back locked.. rigid.
We are going round in circles, you are not getting my point, whether i am right or wrong.
In simple terms i am saying there may be a weakness in the actual point that tilts at the bottom and not in the workings of what makes it tilt. :rolleye:
-
I am by know means sure, but i think its a case of under serious g-force the seat collapses. I dont think the force will just lift the latch. :smiley:
Imagine yourself sat their and there is no seat back at all, just you being held in by the harness. If you then had a head on crash your top half would still go forward but downwards as well because your shoulders would just burn on the strap and compress you downwards. Side fixings eliminates this. :popcornsoda:
I could easily be talking sh*t though. :laugh:
....But harnesses work differently from inertia belts. Also, I will probably have a harness bar in my half-roll cage.
I think it's worth investigating if the safety aspects of our Recaro's can be improved when used with a trackday harness. It's still early days.
-
We are going round in circles, you are not getting my point, whether i am right or wrong.
In simple terms i am saying there may be a weakness in the actual point that tilts at the bottom and not in the workings of what makes it tilt. :rolleye:
....Yes, I am aware of the potential weakness at the bottom 'hinge' but that area is just as vulnerable in all the tiltable oem seats when a harness is used and we have already established that the Schroth with oem seat combination, as tony_danza's, is TUV approved and that the label which started all this points towards the tilt release as being the issue.
-
y dont u just call recaro and ask them about the harness holes :smiley: they should know as they will have tested the seats :smiley:
-
y dont u just call recaro and ask them about the harness holes :smiley: they should know as they will have tested the seats :smiley:
....Recaro's sole agents in the UK deal in zillions of different manufacturer's seats and aren't very knowledgable - It's like talking to a warehouse where the staff don't have a clue what's in the boxes they shift.
Perhaps an email to Recaro in Germany may get better results.
Btw, Recaro use the reference *cccls* (CCCLS) for our GTI seats.
-
I am by know means sure, but i think its a case of under serious g-force the seat collapses. I dont think the force will just lift the latch. :smiley:
Imagine yourself sat their and there is no seat back at all, just you being held in by the harness. If you then had a head on crash your top half would still go forward but downwards as well because your shoulders would just burn on the strap and compress you downwards. Side fixings eliminates this. :popcornsoda:
I could easily be talking sh*t though. :laugh:
....But harnesses work differently from inertia belts. Also, I will probably have a harness bar in my half-roll cage.
I think it's worth investigating if the safety aspects of our Recaro's can be improved when used with a trackday harness. It's still early days.
Agree with TC. Its the fact that the harnesses work differently that causes the issue in the first place. How about swapping the drivers side to a rigid back seat such as a pole position that is actually designed for a harness. Only takes 2 min to swap ready for a track day and would be a weight saving?
Otherwise just take the risk. We all take risks everyday and are still on here to post :happy2:
-
I am by know means sure, but i think its a case of under serious g-force the seat collapses. I dont think the force will just lift the latch. :smiley:
Imagine yourself sat their and there is no seat back at all, just you being held in by the harness. If you then had a head on crash your top half would still go forward but downwards as well because your shoulders would just burn on the strap and compress you downwards. Side fixings eliminates this. :popcornsoda:
I could easily be talking sh*t though. :laugh:
....But harnesses work differently from inertia belts. Also, I will probably have a harness bar in my half-roll cage.
I think it's worth investigating if the safety aspects of our Recaro's can be improved when used with a trackday harness. It's still early days.
Agree with TC cant see removing the release mech making it any stronger. Its the fact that the harnesses work differently that causes the issue in the first place. How about swapping the drivers side to a rigid back seat such as a pole position that is actually designed for a harness. Only takes 2 min to swap ready for a track day and would be a weight saving?
Not doubting your methods RR, I think its great your putting it out there for discussion.
Otherwise just take the risk. We all take risks everyday and are still on here to post :happy2:
-
Agree with TC. Its the fact that the harnesses work differently that causes the issue in the first place. How about swapping the drivers side to a rigid back seat such as a pole position that is actually designed for a harness. Only takes 2 min to swap ready for a track day and would be a weight saving?
Otherwise just take the risk. We all take risks everyday and are still on here to post :happy2:
Not doubting your methods RR, I think its great your putting it out there for discussion.
....A Recaro Pole Position, or similar, is my last resort - First I want to see if I can adapt my existing CCCLS Recaro and avoid the extra expense and storage. My garage is tight and at the very far end of my property so I'm thinking of the practical.
[Thinks]: Could I reupholster just the seat cushions in Interlagos on a Pole Position?
Am in the middle of drafting an email to Recaro in Germany. :happy2:
-
is there no way to put a lock pin through the handle stopping it from bein used and locking it in place, then it could be removed when not on a track..
-
or maybe use the recaro cs handle which is differant from the oe recaros as it is located in the seat rear and pulls out wards to the rear of the car rather than pressing up wards
-
is there no way to put a lock pin through the handle stopping it from bein used and locking it in place, then it could be removed when not on a track..
....Wow! Theoretically that could be a very simple and another very good solution. I think you meant to write your post above as a question: "Is there no way to put.. so you could..?"
I'll have to have a close look.
As TC and animal have said here, there would still be a potential for the VW oem seat to fold because it's not a single shell like a FIA seat. However, trackday safety precautions don't have to meet FIA standards and Recaro foldable seats do already meet rigorous TUV test standards.
Thank You, Paul - That's a good suggestion to investigate further. :drinking:
or maybe use the recaro cs handle which is differant from the oe recaros as it is located in the seat rear and pulls out wards to the rear of the car rather than pressing up wards
....I don't quite understand the handle differences you're referring to.
The fact is that being a 5-door car I simply don't need to tilt the seat. I do need to lift the tilt release in the slot whenever I pass the Schroth harness end through. In fact I didn't realise the seat backs tilted until I accidentally actioned the release while trying to pass the harness through the slot.
-
Not doubting your methods RR, I think its great your putting it out there for discussion.
Otherwise just take the risk. We all take risks everyday and are still on here to post :happy2:
....Thanks, ashley - Putting things out for discussion, even if minor, is exactly one of the many things which this forum is great for. It feels very rewarding to both help others and be helped :grouphug:
Re the risk, I know that a designed-for-purpose single shell seat would be more protective but I'm initially trying to see if I can lessen the seat collapse risks with what I've got.
I'm also trying to minimise the look of my car as a dedicated track car and avoid having to rebuild it every time I do a trackday.
-
.
Paulk's idea of a lock-pin looks like by far the simplest option. A solid bar through the upper left hand corner of the tilt release should do it nicely if it's say Allen key headed:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FTrack%2FTiltReleaseSchroth.jpg&hash=ee56b7ed24585dc16cf8ea2b0428d70fed9e89db)
It would take a heck of an smash up to break it and then break me. Without going into tedious detail I'm currently convinced that the folding 'hinge' won't fail unless the accident is very extreme:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FDetailing%2FStickers%2FDummyBent.jpg&hash=ed9a520f974649f80e9b51f4c94e2ae18dac48d3)
-
.
I just had a call from my coachbuilder friend and he says no problem: The tilt release cables are apparently easy to unhook and he suggests we go a step further and add bolts inside to make the seat and back more as one shell. He's a fireman on call and tends to think about safety.
This probably still won't measure up to the safety aspects of a single shell race seat, but it should greatly reduce the risks of injury we've been discussing.
It also saves me money I can put into a removable half-cage instead of an additional driver's race seat.
I'll report more as and when something is done, along with pics. If only one other person benefits, it's worthwhile sharing this info.
-
Good stuff, too many people take an "oh, it'll be fine" attitude. :happy2:
-
Sounds like youve got a good solution RR
-
the handle on our oe recaro pulls up into the seat....The handle on the recaro cs clip out wards to the rear of the car and is set more into the top of the bracket so if you rolled the harness would have to move backwards to release the seat fold. Hard to decribe sorry
-
.
I just had a call from my coachbuilder friend and he says no problem: The tilt release cables are apparently easy to unhook and he suggests we go a step further and add bolts inside to make the seat and back more as one shell. He's a fireman on call and tends to think about safety.
This probably still won't measure up to the safety aspects of a single shell race seat, but it should greatly reduce the risks of injury we've been discussing.
It also saves me money I can put into a removable half-cage instead of an additional driver's race seat.
I'll report more as and when something is done, along with pics. If only one other person benefits, it's worthwhile sharing this info.
Robin, as I'm sure you can tell, I've also been giving this a lot of thought. I was going to suggest taking measures to stop the seat articulating all together as well. However, I'm not sure a couple of bolts will really suffice.
I'm not 100% sure of how the seat frame is contructed, but perhaps you could look into the possibility of getting the hinges and/or the pieices of the frame (up-right back and the base) welded together? A weld will be a lot stronger than two bolts which will cause local stress and might not be very strong.
That said, the seat will still be inherently weak as the hinges on either side of the seat are the only points connecting the back and base together. Between these hinges there is nothing - just a gap. It is this lack of structure that makes these articulated 'bucket-style' seats weak and prone to twisting when they have harnesses threaded through them, loading the seat-back with forces it was never intended to cope with. Some sort of brace welded between the hinges might help, but it's the anchoring of the back of the seat to the base that needs beefing up.
One point to note - the second you change anything with the seat will cease to be TUV approved, so you'll need to make sure you insurance co. are aware of the modification.
I guess it depends how far you want to go with this, as very quickly it could become a lot cheaper to just buy rigid seat?
-
just sell them and get some recaro buckets. They will be lighter and stronger.They still have a small amount of tilt ....
-
just sell them and get some recaro buckets. They will be lighter and stronger.They still have a small amount of tilt ....
+1 :happy2:
RR doesnt need tilt, it's a more-door.
-
or get the porker wing back buckets :drool:
-
Robin, as I'm sure you can tell, I've also been giving this a lot of thought. I was going to suggest taking measures to stop the seat articulating all together as well. However, I'm not sure a couple of bolts will really suffice.
I'm not 100% sure of how the seat frame is contructed, but perhaps you could look into the possibility of getting the hinges and/or the pieices of the frame (up-right back and the base) welded together? A weld will be a lot stronger than two bolts which will cause local stress and might not be very strong.
That said, the seat will still be inherently weak as the hinges on either side of the seat are the only points connecting the back and base together. Between these hinges there is nothing - just a gap. It is this lack of structure that makes these articulated 'bucket-style' seats weak and prone to twisting when they have harnesses threaded through them, loading the seat-back with forces it was never intended to cope with. Some sort of brace welded between the hinges might help, but it's the anchoring of the back of the seat to the base that needs beefing up.
One point to note - the second you change anything with the seat will cease to be TUV approved, so you'll need to make sure you insurance co. are aware of the modification.
I guess it depends how far you want to go with this, as very quickly it could become a lot cheaper to just buy rigid seat?
....I can see all the good sense in what you say and it would quickly get to the point where a substitute rigid seat would be a better option.
Your info is very helpful and for now I'm not going to make a final decision but will still at least disable the tilt mechanism just to lessen/reduce the risks rather than entirely solve it.
I'd enjoy a further chat with you about it when we meet next week. :drinking:
-
just sell them and get some recaro buckets. They will be lighter and stronger.They still have a small amount of tilt ....
+1 :happy2:
RR doesnt need tilt, it's a more-door.
....Is the next post "Bagsy first dibs on your Recaro's, RR!" by any chance? :evilgrin:
-
just sell them and get some recaro buckets. They will be lighter and stronger.They still have a small amount of tilt ....
+1 :happy2:
RR doesnt need tilt, it's a more-door.
....Is the next post "Bagsy first dibs on your Recaro's, RR!" by any chance? :evilgrin:
I can't speak for Paul but I've got the .:R full leather, heated Recaros from the factory :happy2: