MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Technical Workshop => Topic started by: AnSGTI on August 10, 2010, 07:30:52 pm
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I have a cold start problem on my Edition 30. If the car's been left overnight it will turn over but sounds as though it hunts/struggles for a second then idles normally for a while, but every now and then I get a slight shudder/vibration on idle as well. If the car has been running for a few minutes and is turned off then restarted it starts straight away. Car is an 07 plate with 21K miles on the clock - FVWSH
I'm taking the car in to be checked tomorrow under warranty as I've only owned it a week. I want to be sure I can give the mechanic enough things to check so I have some questions.
I've come from a MKIV 1.8T and every time I used to get in it I could hear the fuel pump prime, I haven't heard my Edition 30 do this once not even on turning the key - is this right? I never drove any other MKVs or Edition 30s so I have nothing to go against. I'm sure I read somewhere how to check the fuel pressure using VAG-Com, what should it be?
A failed PCV valve has been suggested - would this account for a poor cold start and dodgy idle. How can I check this is faulty, or ensure the mechanic that has a look checks?
Sorry - typical newbie, loads of questions.
Thanks in advance!
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The symptoms you describe could point to a failed PCV.
They are quite easy to check. If you take off the PCV (Takes 2 mins to take off), wipe clean the pipe ends with a lint free cloth (as they usually have oil residue in them) and then blow in both directions into the pipework. You should only be able to blow through in one direction. If you can feel any "blowthrough" in both directions, then the PCV is faulty. :happy2:
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the mk5 should prime the in-tank fuel pump when you open the drivers door to get in, have a listen next time :happy2:
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Thanks for the replies guys.
No I was listening as carefully as I could this evening, when opening the door I hear nothing. As I say the MKIV was pretty audible when I opened the drivers door and when I used to turn the key to the battery position. Will the pump throw up any error codes if there's a problem?
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Well the garage called to say they had checked everything, they said they couldn't fault the car but had adjusted the fuel pressure.
I left the car there overnight last night so it would definitely be cold when first turned over today. I went there this morning just to check it did it when the mechanic turned it over - he agreed something was amiss.
I mentioned the PCV valve but I'm still positive I don't hear the fuel pump prime on opening the drivers door, or turning the key in the ignition. I'm going back tomorrow as they wanted to keep the car overnight and turn it over in the morning to make sure they've fixed it but I really have my doubts
I wouldn't be so :sad: but I've only owned the car a week - at least hopefully I'll be able to claim on the warranty
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Did they say how they adjusted the fuel pressure? :rolleye:
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They adjusted the duty cycle - software adpation. It was out on it's specified value.
Car didn't seem to start any better but it seems to be idling much better after a 20 mile run. Guess I'll wait and see what happens next time I start it up.
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Well that made no difference what so ever - and the tech's I saw haven't got a clue what it could be. Inherent design of the engine he says, I'm not having that as a reason to sound like a bag of spanners on intial start up from cold. The S3 my dad had used to start up no worries and sound smooth.
I can't believe a 3 and a half year old car with 21K on the clock starts up worse than my old MKIV.
Is it pretty natural when filling with petrol not to be bale to squeeze the trigger on the pump as tight as it can go for maximum flow - it just locks on me and I have to start again squeezing the trigger gentley to about half way and even then it can lock again. I'm putting the nozzle in so it's vertically and not at any angles, I also noticed I'm getting a lot of air escaping when I'm taking the nozzle out of the filler pipe - I thought petrol tanks had breathers so the air could escape this way?
I really do feel like rejecting this car as I've not even had it two weeks and I'm not happy with my latest VW
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Your nozzle problem is common, a few people on here have had this, its just a matter of finding the correct angle, its down to the pumps you use and not the car.
As for the cold starts, mine has always struggled (from new)when left for more than 2 days, all i do is keep the key turned that tiny bit longer. :happy2:
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Is it pretty natural when filling with petrol not to be bale to squeeze the trigger on the pump as tight as it can go for maximum flow?
Depends on the pump. I use only Shell garages and even then, there's differences between the pumps - on some I can fully squeeze the trigger and on others, squeezing too much causes it to cut out.
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Thanks for the replies - yeah just done some reading on the pump thing and had come to the conclusion I'm just not used to the car yet. :ashamed:
If I crank it for longer on the key, the starter motor just ends up running on when the car fires. It's not the catching that's the problem, it's when it does catch it runs very roughly for a split second and is very noticeable from the cabin and even outside of the car but then smoothes out. Simply it's just not a smooth start. I've tried leaving the key in the ignition with the battery on for about 60 seconds before starting but it's no different. I'm getting the odd judder on idle thats felt in the cabbin as well - I think I'm going to pull the PCV valve myself tomorrow and check it.
My girlfriend commented on it last Saturday and she doesn't know much about cars - it has to be something to do with the start-up process but as there's no fault codes registered the tech responce is it maybe just like that which I have trouble believing.
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I can def hear my pump prime on drivers door opening :happy2: (in fact its a common gotcha what NOT to do when fitting a fuel pump when its apart!)
asides from that, what they are telling you doesnt quite ring true.
Duty cycle is detemined by the ECU, what they may have done is reset the adaptation values but not duty cycle (AFAIK that isnt possible its calculated on the fly by the ECU).
What it may point to though is something like a leaky injector thats dropping the fuel rail pressure when the engines off, so that when you come to restart, it all needs to get up to pressure again before it runs smoothly.
And why it needs a few days to 'leak'
would suggest getting someone close to you using VAGCOM to measure rail pressure at idle, then if possible 1/2/3 days after (to see how far its dropped)
you could also log duty cycle for the injectors (all) during idle and running to see if one of them is 'different'
does the car run smooth and hard to the redline?
you 'could' consider injector cleaner
you should also consider wider issues and get a full diagnostic like compression test if nothing obvious comes up (e.g. head gasket etc)
odd judder at idle can be normal depending on your engine mounts and if your coil packs are OK etc
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Sorry I may have got it wrong to be honest, I like to think I know a fair bit about cars but when the tech told me what needed doing I may have got the words jumbled up - how you have phrased the explanation seems to ring true with what I was told they'd adjusted.
No I can't hear the fuel pump prime at all, and I couldn't on the MKV Golf GTI they had in for a service which they also let me fire up. They tested both car after they'd both been sat overnight. The tech put his hand on the underneath of my fuel tank and sai he could feel the pump prime when the door was opened.
I don't have VAG-Com and I live in Herefordshire, I was a member of MKIVs before joining here and there doesn't seem to be any VAG Com user based anywhere near me that could help. I really need to get myself a cable quick smart as I think the only was I can get this sorted is by doing the diagnostics myself the taking it back into the garage and telling them what to replace as they really are a bunch of uselss numpties - I have 2.5 months of warranty left.
I think your theory sounds the best I've heard so far - is there anyway I could test this, what if I turned the key to the battery position, turned it off, then back again serveral times before starting - is this likely to help the system build up pressure by having the pump prime a few times? This way I can see if it's any better and put it down to a fuel pressure problem.
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hey no apologies needed :happy2:
they cant adjust adaptation only reset it, in fact its advised after doing any mods to the car (e.g. air intake) to see how it adapts.
huge adaptation values indicate there can be an issue, anyway I digress...
you really need VCDS to be able to read rail / pump values, not much you could by turning the key.
The fuel system is 'split'
Theres a low pressure fuel side (in tank pump which you hear running) which feeds fuel to the high pressure side (pump that runs off camshaft/fuel rail).
The hp side feeds the injectors.
So when you have issues you need to diagnose both sides.
the pump priming the low pressure side isnt going to make one bit of difference to the high pressure rail side if you get my drift.
So , no doing the 'key' thing isnt going to make any difference or tell you anything imho.
maybe just take it back to the dealer and say the starting is unacceptable? and push them a bit more...
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As I thought, I'd read about these engines having a high pressure fuel pump that runs off the CAM. I thought these engines were fairly reliable so I could see it being a component issue - if the injector wasn't up to pressure on start-up, would you expect a miss fire on the cylinder?
Yeah I think that's all I can do is take it back - the car has only got 21K on the clock and full VW service history on time/distance. The previous lady owner was only doing 6-7K a year. Do you think I'd be best getting a compression check or trying to steer them towards monitoring the fuel rail pressure? As it only does it on cold starts (has to be left for a few hours) the problem is catching it. If the cars started a few times close together, on maybe the third try it will start fine then you have to leave it standing for a few hours for it to do it again on startup. This is why to me a fuel pressure problem fitted as I can imagine the pressure (leaks and) dips once the engines left but builds up after it's been running for a few seconds and stays that way for a few hours.
To answer an earlier question you had before I haven't redlined it to be honest, but it pulls well - I've just been getting used to the car. Once it's moving I can't fault it.
I just don't have any faith in VW and I'm not too sure about the specialists around this way.
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Another Edition 30 owner recently replied to one of my threads on another forum saying he was also having the same cold start problem as me, but that he was also getting a whine from the CAM belt - this was diagnosed as the CAM tensioner. He's had the CAM belt and tensioner replaced and apprently this cured his cold start problem. When I first felt the judder I get on idle my gut instinct was the timing feels like it's out.
As the high pressure fuel pump is driven by the CAM - if my timing was out would this fit with the porblems I have with cold starts? Is it easy to check the timing (Marks on CAM) without having to remove to much from the engine bay?
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Well I've tried numerous forums to no avail - I started the car yesterday and it was the worst it's ever been. It turned over but spluttered at 400rpms for a second or two then jumped straight upto 1100prm.
I've dumped it back at the stealers who are trying to help me but I just know they won't find the problem - I think they're going to try a compression check after checking the fuel pressure and checking the injectors.
I have found another person who recently bought an Edition 30 who has exactly the same cold start problem I have, he is now in the process of returning the car to the stealers he got it from due to a string of other issues as well as the cold start stutter - I really hope I don't have to go down this route.
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=159660.0
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Well small update from the stealers - VW technical have been in touch and want some measuring block data, namely block 032 I believe.
They think they can pinpoint an injector problem by measuring this block - can anyone explain to me if this is true please?
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It turned over but spluttered at 400rpms for a second or two then jumped straight upto 1100prm.
Mine does this too. Been like this for a while but i'm not particularly worried as mine is still covered under warranty - May 08 car with 19k miles.
When I had the service done in May this year the dealer advised a minor fault that needs rectifying under warranty - both intercooler pipes leaking - recommend seals.
Could this have anything to do with the cold start problem?
This i'll get them to fix the above and look at the cold start issue before winter.
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Thanks for your reply - I have no idea to be honest, to me that would be a boost leak I'd have thought so depending on how big your leak is I guess you should just be down on power. Can you hear anything as your driving?
I hadn't even considered a boost leak but don't see how it would cause a problem with Cold Starts
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No change in performance. Think it's a 'weep' not a leak but now i have two minor issues i'll get them sorted soon hopefully.
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You may find your problem is your PCV valve, mine has been checked but yours may have failed and so I'm told causes cold start problems.
If you get anywhere with it though, please let me know
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Thanks for the replies guys.
No I was listening as carefully as I could this evening, when opening the door I hear nothing. As I say the MKIV was pretty audible when I opened the drivers door and when I used to turn the key to the battery position. Will the pump throw up any error codes if there's a problem?
OK, if you have a 5 door, remove your rear seat squab (the bit your ar$e sits on), and try again to hear it. Mine is quite noticeable.
Also, if you have VCDS, you can actually test cycle the in-tank pump.
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Your nozzle problem is common, a few people on here have had this, its just a matter of finding the correct angle, its down to the pumps you use and not the car.
As for the cold starts, mine has always struggled (from new)when left for more than 2 days, all i do is keep the key turned that tiny bit longer. :happy2:
Agreed - this thread http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,498.0.html may give further advice.
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hey no apologies needed :happy2:
they cant adjust adaptation only reset it, in fact its advised after doing any mods to the car (e.g. air intake) to see how it adapts.
huge adaptation values indicate there can be an issue, anyway I digress...
you really need VCDS to be able to read rail / pump values, not much you could by turning the key.
The fuel system is 'split'
Theres a low pressure fuel side (in tank pump which you hear running) which feeds fuel to the high pressure side (pump that runs off camshaft/fuel rail).
The hp side feeds the injectors.
So when you have issues you need to diagnose both sides.
the pump priming the low pressure side isnt going to make one bit of difference to the high pressure rail side if you get my drift.
I think it will. It is the low pressure side which provides the large 'volume' of fuel. If this is lacking, then the high pressure side (which delivers considerably smaller volumes) will suffer.
So , no doing the 'key' thing isnt going to make any difference or tell you anything imho.
Disagree again. Turning the ignition on, then leaving it for say 20-30 seconds (ideally until all the usual warning lights have gone out - airbag springs to mind), not only allows the low pressure to re-prime if needed, it also allows the throttle body alignment to complete (which occurs every time the ignition is turned on).
maybe just take it back to the dealer and say the starting is unacceptable? and push them a bit more...
Agreed.
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It turned over but spluttered at 400rpms for a second or two then jumped straight upto 1100prm.
Mine does this too. Been like this for a while but i'm not particularly worried as mine is still covered under warranty - May 08 car with 19k miles.
When I had the service done in May this year the dealer advised a minor fault that needs rectifying under warranty - both intercooler pipes leaking - recommend seals.
Could this have anything to do with the cold start problem?
This i'll get them to fix the above and look at the cold start issue before winter.
You taking it to Preston VW ??
Could do with comparing mine with your also, as mine is in warranty too, and doesn't start clean either
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Yes it would go to VW Preston. How do you suggest a comparison between our cars?
Cheers Phil
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Well VW have checked measuring blocks 032 and say everything is OK so they now want to do a compression check next.
I'm gutted, the cars just over 3 years old with 21K on the clock and FVWSH. I expected more I guess, I'm not sure I want to keep the car if they find something wrong. I'm pretty sure theirs a ceiling on the maximum amout I can claim on the warranty and engine work is going to suck it dry pretty quickly.
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Well VW have checked measuring blocks 032 and say everything is OK so they now want to do a compression check next.
I'm gutted, the cars just over 3 years old with 21K on the clock and FVWSH. I expected more I guess, I'm not sure I want to keep the car if they find something wrong. I'm pretty sure theirs a ceiling on the maximum amout I can claim on the warranty and engine work is going to suck it dry pretty quickly.
I'd seriously consider getting a 2nd opinion from a trusted VAG indie specialist, or even a fellow forum member. I'm sure you need no reminding on how inept many VW stealers can be at diagnosing faults - if you ain't carefull, they could reach the warranty threshold just from their attempts to correctly diagnose the prob.
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hey no apologies needed :happy2:
they cant adjust adaptation only reset it, in fact its advised after doing any mods to the car (e.g. air intake) to see how it adapts.
huge adaptation values indicate there can be an issue, anyway I digress...
you really need VCDS to be able to read rail / pump values, not much you could by turning the key.
The fuel system is 'split'
Theres a low pressure fuel side (in tank pump which you hear running) which feeds fuel to the high pressure side (pump that runs off camshaft/fuel rail).
The hp side feeds the injectors.
So when you have issues you need to diagnose both sides.
the pump priming the low pressure side isnt going to make one bit of difference to the high pressure rail side if you get my drift.
I think it will. It is the low pressure side which provides the large 'volume' of fuel. If this is lacking, then the high pressure side (which delivers considerably smaller volumes) will suffer.
agreed, but my thinking was around cold start initial turns not during general running. the issue of the low pressure side not giving enough volume seems a common check once the high pressure side has been ruled out during remap issues. in some cases the in tank pump fuel filter has been implicated.
the owner talks about problems during start not during general running
So , no doing the 'key' thing isnt going to make any difference or tell you anything imho.
Disagree again. Turning the ignition on, then leaving it for say 20-30 seconds (ideally until all the usual warning lights have gone out - airbag springs to mind), not only allows the low pressure to re-prime if needed, it also allows the throttle body alignment to complete (which occurs every time the ignition is turned on).
fair enough , try it and see if the cold start is any different
maybe just take it back to the dealer and say the starting is unacceptable? and push them a bit more...
Agreed.
thinking about this again you dont live on a steep drive do you???
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No I'm fully aware of this but I just don't know where to take it where I'm based (Hereford/Worcestershire) - it's currently in South Hereford Garages VW and they are consulting VW Technical concerning diagnostics. Basically if they can't find anything wrong then I'll be putting my hand in my own pocket for the diagnostic work as the warranty will only cover diagnostics if a repair is recommended, and at present it isn't.
I called the garage where I got it from today and explained how since I bought the car at the begining of August Ihave had nothing but worry concerning the problems with it. VW have had it since last Thursday now.
I appreciate your help/advice - if you can think of anything I can try I'm all ears. I've read a few articles saying people who've had similar problems have replaced their low pressure fuel pump. The tech held his hand on the bottom of my tank and said he could fell it but I can't hear it at all, not like I could on my old MKIV 1.8T
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hey no apologies needed :happy2:
they cant adjust adaptation only reset it, in fact its advised after doing any mods to the car (e.g. air intake) to see how it adapts.
huge adaptation values indicate there can be an issue, anyway I digress...
you really need VCDS to be able to read rail / pump values, not much you could by turning the key.
The fuel system is 'split'
Theres a low pressure fuel side (in tank pump which you hear running) which feeds fuel to the high pressure side (pump that runs off camshaft/fuel rail).
The hp side feeds the injectors.
So when you have issues you need to diagnose both sides.
the pump priming the low pressure side isnt going to make one bit of difference to the high pressure rail side if you get my drift.
I think it will. It is the low pressure side which provides the large 'volume' of fuel. If this is lacking, then the high pressure side (which delivers considerably smaller volumes) will suffer.
agreed, but my thinking was around cold start initial turns not during general running. the issue of the low pressure side not giving enough volume seems a common check once the high pressure side has been ruled out during remap issues. in some cases the in tank pump fuel filter has been implicated.
the owner talks about problems during start not during general running
So , no doing the 'key' thing isnt going to make any difference or tell you anything imho.
Disagree again. Turning the ignition on, then leaving it for say 20-30 seconds (ideally until all the usual warning lights have gone out - airbag springs to mind), not only allows the low pressure to re-prime if needed, it also allows the throttle body alignment to complete (which occurs every time the ignition is turned on).
fair enough , try it and see if the cold start is any different
maybe just take it back to the dealer and say the starting is unacceptable? and push them a bit more...
Agreed.
thinking about this again you dont live on a steep drive do you???
Nope I don't - the street outside my house is flat, as is the car park at work and these are the palces this occurs at the moment
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you would need someone with VCDS to log the fuel data aluded to at the bottom of this link.
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/2.0l_TFSI_(AXX/BGB/BPJ/BPY/BWA)
unless your low pressure in tank pump is somehow being lazy I wouldnt get hung up on not hearing a sound when turning the key, if it wasnt running you wouldnt get very far :signLOL: so it must be running as a minimum while you are driving....
take it to a specialist (non VW) or buy/borrow VCDS and have a play around yourself
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Oh, don't forget the basics. The low pressure fuel pump is fused via Fuse 27 in the fuse box in the end of the dash (drivers side). Look in the free workshop manuals thread to confirm which one is F27.
Also, remove your rear seat squab, fold up the flap of carpet on the right side, and check all the connections. The pump ECU fits into the cut-out recess in the black plastic access cover. Remove this access cover to also reveal the actual connections on top of the fuel tank. You'll be amazed at the amount of crud under there - quite a rust trap (for the fuel pump & sender unit fixing ring).
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OK - Update compression is fine, VW technical are now recommending that the fuel injectors are replaced. To be fair, the service desk manager has been so helpful about this and has called the warranty people and explained the situation and costs. The warranty people have said they want to send their own engineer (in the next 48hrs) to check the car over before they authorise the work. It’s looking like 4 new fuel injectors basically though according to them....
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Well the engineer came to the garage where the car is on Thursday and the technicians demonstrated the problem to him. He didn't bother to submit his report to CAR PLAN (warranty people) until this morning and they called me to say he's rejected the claim. He has basically said the problem is not worthy of a 'fix' and that "I must have purchased the car with the problem". They hadn't got all the facts straight for starters, there's dodgy idle and the car does not perform as I think it should.
I called the Alfa Romeo dealership where I got the car from and the sales rep I purchased the car through isn't in until Monday now - I spoke to someone else and explained I wanted this sorting in one way or another only to be told no one of authority to make decisions about my problem was available until Monday so I may as well call my sales rep then.
When I purchased the car I was told the 3 month warranty was pretty bullet proof - what a bloody joke!
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Well I spoke to trading standards to see where I stand - I've owned the car 35 days and it's been in the Stealers in Hereford for 12 days now in total and if I'm honest they "hope" replacing the injectors will fix my dodgy cold starts.
I spoke to the dealer I got it from and he questioned why VW can't have the injectors tested, and also how confident they are that it's an injector problem. Basically the dealer I got it from can argue with the warranty company that the car did not have the fault when the car was purchased, and that they have a duty of care to fix it under the terms and conditions of the warranty (even though they say as the fault only occurs on cold starts then I should live with it which is such BS).
I'm also told that as I authorised investigations I have to pay the bill - so how the heck am I supposed to find out what’s wrong with the car so I can make a claim of the warranty - should I shake my magic ball so it tells me so I can then call the warranty people and get authorisation.
Do all Edition 30 owners get hesitation/stutter on start up? The engine catches and hunts/splutters at 400rpm for a few seconds before jumping to 1200rpm and idling normally? The VW garage have told the dealer I got the car from that "most people would just live with it" but I'm sorry no other car I've had before this had any starting problems so why should I except this. Catching is not the problem, it's when it catches and judders like a crack bitch on speed and is noticable from inside and outside
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AnsGTI - any update please?
Mine also gets hesitation/stutter on start up and catches and hunts/splutters at 400rpm before jumping to 1200rpm and idling normally.
Some days are better than others. I've started to leave the key turned on the starter for slightly longer which seems to be working.
My car is in next Monday for the other warranty work I mentioned but not this problem as I'd have to leave the car with them the day before. They said they would check for any fault codes.
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I´m currently away and trying to forget about it to be honest. South Hereford VW have had the car three weeks now. The supplying dealer (Alfa Romeo Dealership) are now involved and have insisted they get the injectors tested - as far as I´m aware this should have all been happening this week but given how long everything has taken I´m not holding my breath.
Oh, if I hold the key for longer I just hear my starter motor continue (while engine begins to try and run) which probably isn´t very good - someone did mention to me to check my starter motor but as I have said in previous posts my problem is when the engine catches, it seem to be startved of something for those initial few seconds.
I get back Saturday and will be heading to the dealer to see where we are - I really hope they´ve found it by now becuase my love for vdubs has slowly vanished given the worry I´ve had with this car
I´ll update more on Saturday
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personally I would not recommend holding the starter any longer than reqd, it achieves nothing (other than risking damaging things!)
did leaving the key for 20-30 sec make any difference like TT suggested?
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No, not with mine it didn't. Holding the starter on for what is only another half to one second longer does seem to work though.
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I can leave the key in for minutes (on battery) before starting and it makes no difference to mine either - I get back to the UK tomorrow morning so I´ll have to call the garage and see what they have to say.
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OK I spoke with the workshop manager at the garage yesterday, my injectors were removed this week and they noticed straight away that every injector had a fair amount of carbon build up. The car only has 21K on the clock, what would this point to - poor additives in a particular brand of petrol used by the previous owner?
Anyway the injectors were sent off to a local company earlier this week where they were tested. The companies test equipment would not test passed 5 or 6 BAR but they believe there is a problem with all of the injectors from testing. The injectors were returned to VW and they have now sent the injectors off to another company (sent Thursday) and they expect to get the test results verbally tomorrow. I've had the supplying (Alfa Romeo) dealer acting on my behalf while I've been out of the country this week but wasn't able to speak with them yesterday, so I'm not sure under who's instruction they decided that the injectors needed to be sent to two different companies. From what I understand it's due to the first companies limited test equipment, or at least this is what the workshop manager confirmed to me. Someone has obviously questioned the test results so this may possibly be the warranty company but I will confirm all of this tomorrow.
It is looking like my car needs 4 new injectors as VW first suggested (which my warranty company declined) - the supplying dealership has said they can get the warranty company to pay but what they need from VW is for them to confirm that fitting four new injectors WILL fix my problem, of course they wouldn't confirm whether it would or not.
Anyway what would cause all the carbon to build upon the injectors on so few miles?
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Could it be due to the fuel being used? What fuel do you put in?
Mine has 100% Shell V Power and has this issue. Thought this fuel cleans not leaves carbon deposits on the injectors?
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I have no idea what fuel was used before I purchased the car on the 2nd of August - I have used BP Super Unleaded since I have owned it, I know it's only 97RON but the price of V-Power at my local shell it about 10p per litre more expensive than a Shell 30 miles away (which is not on my route)
I never had any problem like this in my MKIV and ran that on BP Super
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Injector test results are in - they cleaned one injector and found a 10% increase in dispersal at various RPMs. They found no leaky injectors. They also said they had not seen carbon build up like this on other GTI injectors they had tested in the past and that this may point to a combustion problem. I've had a compressions check (which was fine) so what could this mean? Or could it just be a combination of poor fuel and short journeys?
Anyway the workshop manager and I spoke for some time and he recommends getting them cleaned professionally (£30 each) and then re-fitting and running some cleaner through the car. I explained to the garage that I didn't think it was fair that I would have to pay for this, plus the work to date I'm guessing.
I now have a case (manager) with VW Customer Services after I wrote to them complaining about the quality of this car - it has FVWSH, serviced on time and is only 3 year 4 months old with 21K on the clock. Anyway they said they'd speak to the VW garage and give me an answer tomorrow after I updated my case with the info above.
Failing that I guess I try my luck with Car Plan again (who the 3 month warranty is with that I got when I bought the car), but given they turned down VW's original recommendation to replace all the injectors I'm guessing they'll just reject this claim too.
This Thursday my car will have been in the garage 4 weeks :sad:
I can't find much information about what would cause carbon deposits other than the additives in fuel but guessing combustion/timing problems as stated previously
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Interesting stuff, keep the updates coming. I've been running on Shell V-Power for almost a year now since i've had the car but do alot of short journeys.
The confusing thing in all this though is that once normal idle has been reached the car performs faultlessly in all driving scenarios.
If the injectors were carboned up then surely performance would be hindered all the time?
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The report, which I hope to get a copy of, suggested a 10% increase in dispersal once they had cleaned an injector. Under a cold start I'm guessing the injector will be using a slightly different spray patterrn so maybe this accounts for my problem, I hope. The report did also suggest that these large carbon deposits could point to a combustion issue so I'm guessing this could be timming/spark issue - a compression check was fine so that all I can think of really.
Anyway I now have the battle on my hands of trying to get VW to pay for this work, if that fails it's back to Car Plan through the supplying dealer to see if they'll foot the bill for all this
I've searched high and low for what may cause excessive carbon deposits on Injectors - I have threads on other forums but I'm mainly talking to myself. I may try the Vortex forum
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All sounds very annoying mate, hopefully you will get back a working car and it can slowly re-build your faith and joy in owning it. In an earlier post you said the previous owner was a lady doing 7-8k a year, if that was all low speed round town driving without ever stretching its legs then I am under the impression that this could cause a build up of deposits especially if she was using crap fuel.
And surely you only need to get 3 injectors cleaned since the testing company clearly cleaned one to do their testing :wink:
Mine is only a KO3 car so has different internals to yours, on start up it catches fine and the revs head straight up to 1100-1200 but as they slowly drop down after this there is an occasional lump to the idle which transfers into the cabin which goes once the revs reach normal idle, so even when the initial fire up issue is fixed expect an occasional lump as the engine settles down :happy2:
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ok, Id still keep an open mind as to the primary cause.
In terms of the injectors , 10% seems a relatively small variance (but depending on the required tolerance it could have no or a huge effect i dont know). Have VW or the testing company confirmed that +/- 10% would definitely exhibit your issue?
The ECU can adapt with correction as well.
(if i took injectors off any GTI would they not also show a dispersal issue at this level due to normal use?)
what oil has been used in it
(I know TT always stated poor quality oils can cause deposits on the valves etc , dunno about the injectors themselves though being DI)
deposits may have nothing to do with your problem.
bottom line get the injectors back in and see if the problem is fixed.......
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Thanks for the replies - yes I am keeping an open mind about this. The engineers report said that they 'hadn't seen this level of build-up on other GTI injectors' - they also said 'in their opinion this wouldn't have caused a miss fire at start-up' and that it may all indicate some combustion problem.
I have no idea about the type of Oil I'm afraid - it's on time/distance and all been done by Halifax VW. I'm working away so can't get to an invoice at the moment to get the oil part number.
Problem I have is who pays for the injectors to be cleaned
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OK - well some good news.
My injectors are being cleaned, I have received a gesture of goodwill from VW of 70% costs - I accepted this meaning all work to date will cost me £75. Considering everything that's been done I don't think I can grumble and at least I don't have to try and argue it with the warranty company.
I'm going to try and get the supplying dealer to cover the remaining costs, but I'm not holding my breath.
The injectors will be cleaned and tested and sent back to the VW garage and re-fitted. They are also going to inspect the intake valves for carbon deposits after I spoke to them about it. They want me to run a fuel cleaner once I get the car back.
Hopefully they'll get the injectors back on Friday
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Mate, reading through this thread there's been some horrific news. But at least it's getting sorted finally.
I think sometimes it's more fortune. I know someone who bought a Ford Fiesta and hasn't had a problem with it. I've heard about people who've had issues with brand new Aston Martin DB9.
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Yeah I know these things happen, just never had it happen to me before :signLOL:
I am feeling generally happier about it now - especially as I just had a curtsey call from the workshop manager and he said he'd given them the 'all go' to get them cleaned and he expects them back Friday, maybe Saturday. Something interesting he told me was that the injectors were tested at 400RPM pre/post clean and at this level they saw a 14% increase, the 10% increase was at a higher RPM. It's around 400RPM that my golf splutters on start-up, anyway as JOHN_O has rightly stated I shouldn't get ahead of myself and we need to see what happens when the injectors are re-fitted.
I have also asked the garage to check the intake valves while the intake is off - if carbon levels are high here, rather than getting them to clean them would I be right in thinking a good thrash with V-Power (over 3K RPM) for a long drive may help loosen these deposits? Or is a manual clean the only way?
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Well, 5 weeks 1 day and I have my car back :driver:
The judder on idle has gone, it picks up smoothly and seems to be a better drive but it's only had 30 miles put on it and I'd imagine the battery has been disconnected for a fair while so the ECU will still be adapting.
When I first started it there was a slight hesitation in picking up revs but it didn't stutter like it used to. The head tech told me this is what he'd seen on a similar Ed30 that they serviced and said he didn't think it was anything to worry about. I'm going to stick some Forte in it and give it a good run. I'm not completely convinced to be honest but I can't argue that it's as bad as it was prior to taking it in. I guess all I can do is run it for a few days and see how I get on.
I'm still annoyed that a car supplied with a warranty has cost me money - VW have agreed to cover 70% of costs but I still have to find the other 30%. I think the supplying dealer should cover this
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now get out enjoy the car, if it were me Id be making sure I used Shell 98 for a few tanks, let it warm up and fully exercise the car :evilgrin:
then remap it :signLOL:
glad its better than it was :happy2:
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.
Glad to hear it's getting sorted :happy2:
Frankly, it's not worth saving 10p per litre by not using a good petrol such as V-Power - The FSI engine much prefers such fuels and especially if you remap.
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Yeah I know these things happen, just never had it happen to me before :signLOL:
I am feeling generally happier about it now - especially as I just had a curtsey call from the workshop manager and he said he'd given them the 'all go' to get them cleaned and he expects them back Friday, maybe Saturday. Something interesting he told me was that the injectors were tested at 400RPM pre/post clean and at this level they saw a 14% increase, the 10% increase was at a higher RPM. It's around 400RPM that my golf splutters on start-up, anyway as JOHN_O has rightly stated I shouldn't get ahead of myself and we need to see what happens when the injectors are re-fitted.
I have also asked the garage to check the intake valves while the intake is off - if carbon levels are high here, rather than getting them to clean them would I be right in thinking a good thrash with V-Power (over 3K RPM) for a long drive may help loosen these deposits? Or is a manual clean the only way?
As your injectors spray directly into the cylinder under the compression stroke and the v-power doesn't get anywhere near your intake valves a manual clean or water/meth injection is the only options for cleaning of the intake valves :sad1:
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I friggin give up with this car - I've managed to make a video of it starting this morning - I'm told this is a characteristic of my car. Yet if the car is warm, or has been running it starts silky smooth.
I'd be extremely gratefull for any comments please about it:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16099319@N03/5053369573/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/16099319@N03/5053369573/)
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That's not quite as noticeable as mine! Sometimes mine holds at 400-500rpm for longer and sometimes stalls.
Characteristic my arse!!!!
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Couldn't agree more mate - I'm not having it.
Does yours do it all the time or just on cold starts? I assume you haven't taken it in under warranty yet?
Edit: Also I should have mentioned mine used to bounce around 400RPMs for quite some time before I got the injectors cleaned - this is marginally better
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Does it on cold starts only, first thing in morn and after work bout ten hours later.
It only stalls on odd occasions. Had my Ed 30 for a year now and has been run on shell v power for 95% of the time.
If it was a characteristic then surely they'd all do it???
One positive though, pointed out to me by a mechanic; at least when the engine oil has not reached around the engine, it's only doing 4-500 rpm and not 1200+ rpm!
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And no, not taken in under warranty yet as I was hoping you'd obtain the answer for the issue (sorry that you appear to be the guinea pig in this!)
I have mentioned it to two vw dealers in passing and neither are aware of a known problem in this area.
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My VW dealer is sick of the site of me - I'm going to see if it gets any better as my fuel tank empties (fuel cleaner) although from what alot of people say it won't make that much difference to these engines.
Someone on the ukmkivs forum posted this back:
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I had a similair start up issue where it took a while to start up in the morning as if it was running on 3 cyclinders for a second. I ran an adapation on the manifold intake runner with VAGCOM and it cleared the fault. I have scanned several MK5 GTIs and over half of them had faults showing for this which an adapation cleared the fault with two owners reporting it starting much better from cold.
It may not be your fault but you have nothing to loose asking the dealer to do it with there VAS tool I am sure under the circumstances they will do it for free. When they are at it I would get them to do the throttle body adapation aswell.
Instructions from ross-tech.
Intake Manifold Runner
Prerequisites:
◦Ignition ON
◦Engine OFF
◦System voltage at least 11.0 V.
[Select]
[01 - Engine]
[Basic Settings - 04]
Group 142
[Go!]
Activate the Basic Setting.
[ON/OFF/Next]
Wait until Field 4 shows "ADP. O.K.".
[Done, Go Back]
[Close Controller, Go Back - 06]
◦Switch Ignition OFF for at least 60 seconds.
Throttle Body
Prerequisites:
◦Ignition ON
◦Engine OFF
◦System voltage at least 11.0 V.
[Select]
[01 - Engine]
[Basic Settings - 04]
Group 060
[Go!]
Activate the Basic Setting.
[ON/OFF/Next]
Wait until Field 4 shows "ADP. O.K.".
[Done, Go Back]
[Close Controller, Go Back - 06]
◦Switch Ignition OFF.
---
I may try and find someone with vagcom and see if they can do the above for me
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Sounds promising! Anyone with vagcom nr Blackburn fancy giving this a go with mine?!
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to be honest the issue doesnt look too bad in that video, but can imagine its REALLY annoying nonetheless.
@Ans : At this stage, Id probably just try and ignore it , or cut my losses and go to a VW specialist (not a dealer) and agree a plan with them.
or maybe get VCDS and try logging the start up yourself? (for rail pressure/fuel trims etc)
its seems better you say, but its hard to work out if the improved injector flow is a primary help (as its the real problem) or just helps a bit for a different issue. theyd still have to be suspects though as they havent been replaced !
@Mako : Im not sure what rpm the oil pump becomes effective in properly priming the system , but I wouldnt necessarily see sitting at 400rpm as a good thing compared to 1200 rpm , at least then the oil pressure is maxed and providing full film protection.
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its seems better you say, but its hard to work out if the improved injector flow is a primary help (as its the real problem) or just helps a bit for a different issue. theyd still have to be suspects though as they havent been replaced !
The injectors were tested and found to be working 'as they expect' although with reduced dispersal - they were cleaned and re-tested but yes I hear what you're saying
One thing I have noticed, or it maybe just me being pedantic, I was in stationary traffic this morning on hill pointing downwards and I didn't get any judder on idle like I've been experiencing. I'm sure you asked way I parked on hill while trying to start a few posts back? Anyway there's a hill on a street just down from my house I'm going to try parking there tonight facing downwards and I want to see what it starts like tomorrow with gravity on my side. I am begining to come round to the fact that I may just have to live with it but Ido also plan to get my throttle body and intake manifold runner re-calibrated over the next few days to at least see if that makes any difference
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by all means dont stop looking for the root cause, was just suggesting VW dealers prob isnt any use any more :happy2:
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Well it's getting worse what ever it is - I don't want this car anymore so I'm going to speak to trading standards
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16099319@N03/5061478161/
Look how it shakes on start-up - it's an embarrassment
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Having seen that vid, mine does do that from time to time. Sometimes it's better than that. Once this week the engine caught at 300rpm then stalled.
I'm unsure whether you're blowing this out of proportion. Yes, it's slightly annoying but lasts only for a split second. The car drives absolutely fine in every other way so surely can't be that (mechanically) serious can it?
Certainly not a reason for returning the car?
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Just a few things to look at if they have not been looked at already:
Correct fuel pressure when cranking
Fuel pump follower
Cam timing
Cam chain tensioner is ok
Spark Plugs
Air leaks, do a pressure test
Diverter Valve
Cat is still in one piece
Turbo spins freely
You mentioned carbon build up on the intake valves, did they find anything?
How does the car perform when driving?
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Having seen that vid, mine does do that from time to time. Sometimes it's better than that. Once this week the engine caught at 300rpm then stalled.
I'm unsure whether you're blowing this out of proportion. Yes, it's slightly annoying but lasts only for a split second. The car drives absolutely fine in every other way so surely can't be that (mechanically) serious can it?
Certainly not a reason for returning the car?
Maybe your right, in fact I know you probably are - all I know is I bought a car with a warranty and it's of no use what so ever. My problem is somewhat better after it spent five weeks with VW and they cleaned the injectors (after I fight from me with VW UK) but it's certainly not gone. Would I have bought this car having seen the problem when I test drove it, probably not. When I bought the car it drove really well, yet had a slight judder (like the timing was out) then after a week I get this 3 cylinder start-up exactly how you have described. Anyway all I can think is whatever it is that's wrong, is going to cost me a bloody fortune to fix when it eventually goes kaput. Please I'm not trying to cause offence here - I've just had an email from the supplying dealer basically and my blood is boiling as they say it's a characteristic of the car and simply I should stop looking for a problem that doesn't exist.
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BDMAlex has some good suggestions for you there :happy2:
In all honesty I dont generally see warranties as any good anyway, unless its for obvious/serious failures, your issue falls into the 'could take lots of hrs/money to find' category. The way around it is to find an acknowledged specialist.
I doubt very much that your car has something wrong that will cause a serious failure.
Chances are the fault will change very little but car will run as normal
OR
whatever is causing the problem will just get worse, where it wont start/lots of ECU fault codes then it will be a lot more obvious whats wrong = it can be fixed straight away
Where are you in the UK? JKM are the kind of people who have found these kind of 'tricky' faults, so its worth a long drive.
In all honesty approach a specialist, discuss what the problem is/whats already been done, then agree a diagnostic cost.
(e.g 3 hrs labour to start then an update as to whether theyve found an issue or need more time)
(I wouldnt normally recommend it but you could also say 'what the hell' and get it remapped, any flaws sensors/fuel etc are going to be highlighted sooner :laugh: ) But Id strongly recommend go to JKM get the fault fixed AND get the car remapped :happy2:
Yes it may cost some of your cash (which in an ideal world you shouldnt have to spend) but then you can then enjoy the car :happy2:
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Sorry I'm in Hereford - where are JKM based?
I can't really afford to chase this fault anymore anyway - I've just paid VW £150 (my outstanding 30%) for what can only be described as guess work. I need new rear tyres and my insurance is up for renewal this month so it's going to have to wait. I streched myself buying this car anyway - I appreciate I probably come across as a moaning old goat but I try and take care of my stuff and as soon as something goes wrong I get it fixed. I don't like faults, especially ones that I don't know how to fix which is exactly what this is.
Just a few things to look at if they have not been looked at already:
Correct fuel pressure when cranking
Fuel pump follower
Cam timing
Cam chain tensioner is ok
Spark Plugs
Air leaks, do a pressure test
Diverter Valve
Cat is still in one piece
Turbo spins freely
You mentioned carbon build up on the intake valves, did they find anything?
How does the car perform when driving?
It feels better once the injectors have been cleaned, but the idle is far more lumpy than it was before. If I tried to redline the car I would shift up well before 6K usually due to the engine noise which was loud. It seems to hit higher rpms a bit better but I'm still not convinced it sounds great at 6K + rpms
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http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/services.htm
3hrs roughly.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Hereford&daddr=PO3+5RD&hl=en&geocode=FbhPGgMdlYjW_ylBU26qJdRvSDGWbDz9S5qc1Q%3BFYCDBwMdOObv_ylhMq6S3Fx0SDFbV4_KPr2aCA&mra=ls&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=16.837555,36.035156&ie=UTF8&ll=51.6998,-1.724854&spn=2.202751,4.504395&z=8
ok forum people , any other suggestions that are closer to home for AnsGTI ?
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If I tried to redline the car I would shift up well before 6K usually due to the engine noise which was loud. It seems to hit higher rpms a bit better but I'm still not convinced it sounds great at 6K + rpms
....On the 2.0T FSI engine it's much better to shift gear at about 5,500 max - There's less power at higher revs and it's not great for the engine longer term.
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Although he does have a K04 so he might have a stronger power higher up.... Although im with you robin and avoid over revving unless required, love a bit of low down grunt, if I wanted to rev the nuts off a car I would have an RX8
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Cheers fort the replies guys - :signLOL: I'm not this mad guy that drives cars to the limit, it was just when I started making enquirees about my issues a lot of poepl asked how the car accelrated to red line. I could do this in my 1.8T quite easily but in the ED30 I bail out - just wondered if all of my issues were related thats all. Anyway think I'm just going to take the advice of the kind people on here and enjoy the car and wear ear defenders when I'm starting up from now on :grin:
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just buy a boost gauge , that will take your eye off the rev counter needle :happy2: :signLOL:
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personally I would not recommend holding the starter any longer than reqd, it achieves nothing (other than risking damaging things!)
Huh - what in a starter motor can be damaged by simply using it ????? It is perfectly OK to crank with the starter for upto 20 second continuous bursts. The issue then is that you need to 'rest it' for 30 seconds between each operation.
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The report, which I hope to get a copy of, suggested a 10% increase in dispersal once they had cleaned an injector. Under a cold start I'm guessing the injector will be using a slightly different spray patterrn so maybe this accounts for my problem, I hope.
Injector spray pattern is fixed. The only variables are duration, and number of actual injector cycles per engine stroke.
The report did also suggest that these large carbon deposits could point to a combustion issue so I'm guessing this could be timming/spark issue - a compression check was fine so that all I can think of really.
Could it be the place who tested them is not familiar with FSI direct injection. Old skool manifold injection will basically have zero carbon on the injectors. But on our FSI engines, because the injectors are sited in the actual combustion chamber, then they will have the same amount of carbon as spark plugs. Carbon deposits on FSI injectors, and spark plugs is not really unusual.
What they need to do is check the spark plugs too - and compare injector tips with spark plugs. And more importantly - confirm what type of carbon it is - ie, is it from petrol or oil? Simple basic fundamental diagnosies which any basic vehicle mech/tech should be able to do.
And rather than fannying around with old skool injector testing - they should just authorise a new set and be done with.
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Yeah I know these things happen, just never had it happen to me before :signLOL:
I am feeling generally happier about it now - especially as I just had a curtsey call from the workshop manager and he said he'd given them the 'all go' to get them cleaned and he expects them back Friday, maybe Saturday. Something interesting he told me was that the injectors were tested at 400RPM pre/post clean and at this level they saw a 14% increase, the 10% increase was at a higher RPM. It's around 400RPM that my golf splutters on start-up, anyway as JOHN_O has rightly stated I shouldn't get ahead of myself and we need to see what happens when the injectors are re-fitted.
I have also asked the garage to check the intake valves while the intake is off - if carbon levels are high here, rather than getting them to clean them would I be right in thinking a good thrash with V-Power (over 3K RPM) for a long drive may help loosen these deposits? Or is a manual clean the only way?
As your injectors spray directly into the cylinder under the compression stroke and the v-power doesn't get anywhere near your intake valves a manual clean or water/meth injection is the only options for cleaning of the intake valves :sad1:
Not always. During cold start mode, the injectors are fired 3 times per cycle - during the induction stroke, then near top of compression stroke, and then with a long squirt during the exhaust stroke.
Secondly, the aromatic additives in V-Power/Tesco 99/BP Ultimate etc, along with the high levels of concentrated detergents in the fuel cleaning additives such as Wurth/Forte etc - will all eventually find their way onto the back side of the inlet valves - simply down to oil dilution from FSI-specific over-fueling.
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One positive though, pointed out to me by a mechanic; at least when the engine oil has not reached around the engine, it's only doing 4-500 rpm and not 1200+ rpm!
Then he isn't a very competent mechanic - and certainly doesn't understand how either actual lubricants, and/or lubrication systems work.
Why do engines 'fast idle' when started from cold?
What do synthetic polarised oil molecules do?
What does boundary lubrication vs hydrodynamic lubrication mean?
I bet he can't even stab at an answer to those three points!
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Well it's getting worse what ever it is - I don't want this car anymore so I'm going to speak to trading standards
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16099319@N03/5061478161/
Look how it shakes on start-up - it's an embarrassment
Whilst I agree it shouldn't shake like that - I really think you are coming off the starter way too quickly. You should NOT release the key until the engine has fired and is running under its own steam.
And don't worry about damaging your starter - because they will automatically kill the voltage to the starter when teh engine reached a certain revs (figure taken from the crankshaft position sensor).
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Just a few things to look at if they have not been looked at already:
Correct fuel pressure when cranking
Agreed.
Fuel pump follower
Don't really agree. Problems regarding the fuel pump follower are only likely to be evident during high revs, high engine loadings. Starting and idling will put a negligable duty on the HPFP.
Cam timing
Cam chain tensioner is ok
Hmmmm . . . if they are out, then VCDS will log a fault, and the MIL will light up, pushing the engine to limp home mode - so no, don't agree.
Spark Plugs
And . . . again, just like the high pressure fuel side - faulty spark plugs will generally show up under hard engine loads.
Air leaks, do a pressure test
From where? You are now just clutching at straws!
Diverter Valve
Yeah . . . . rite . . . . so just how much boost, on an Edition 30 is being generated at tick-over? :stupid:
Cat is still in one piece
Does it rattle? And what about closed-loop lambda control?
Again, clutching at straws without actually thinking . . .
Turbo spins freely
Have you been geting your technical advice from Ceebeebies? :stupid:
You mentioned carbon build up on the intake valves, did they find anything?
All FSI engines will have carbon build up on the intake valves.
And all non-FSI engines will also have carbon on said valves. . . . .
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ok forum people , any other suggestions that are closer to home for AnsGTI ?
Auto APS at Brackley
R-Tech at Hinckley, Leicestershire
VW Racing at Milton Keynes
Awesome GTI at Manchester.
Or bring it along to the Santa Pod meet next sunday for the rest of us forumites to ponder over.
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Just a few things to look at if they have not been looked at already:
Correct fuel pressure when cranking
Agreed.
:happy2:
Fuel pump follower
Don't really agree. Problems regarding the fuel pump follower are only likely to be evident during high revs, high engine loadings. Starting and idling will put a negligable duty on the HPFP.
I have had a broken follower cause starting issues as the cam wasnt pushing the fuel pump enough to get correct starting pressure
.
Spark Plugs
And . . . again, just like the high pressure fuel side - faulty spark plugs will generally show up under hard engine loads.
You can still get miss sparks when cranking, but yes it should show up under driving too.
Air leaks, do a pressure test
From where? You are now just clutching at straws!
You can pressure test before the turbo and after the turbo. If there are any leaks then they can cause starting ussues.
Diverter Valve
Yeah . . . . rite . . . . so just how much boost, on an Edition 30 is being generated at tick-over? :stupid:
Its not about producing boost. If there is extra air getting in then it takes more for the engine to start.
Cat is still in one piece
Does it rattle? And what about closed-loop lambda control?
Again, clutching at straws without actually thinking . . .
If the cat is blocked then it stops air getting out of the exhaust. May not show a starting issue, but the car also isnt driving that well. I guess you have put your foot on the end of an exhaust before and it can cause the engine to stall.
Turbo spins freely
Have you been geting your technical advice from Ceebeebies? :stupid:
:fighting:
You mentioned carbon build up on the intake valves, did they find anything?
All FSI engines will have carbon build up on the intake valves.
And all non-FSI engines will also have carbon on said valves. . . . .
Yes they will all have carbon build up on the valves, but some have excess amounts of carbon build up on the valve. This restricts air flow to the engine.
I want to give as many suggestions as possible to help the guy out. A starting issue could be one of many different things and if i can help then I will. Im cool with constructive critisism with realistic resoning.
Dont forget that we are in MK and can try and help you with you problem.
BDMAlex
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OK, lets go back to basics, and more importantly, look at the thread title - Large Carbon deposits on Injectors - and then try to tailor advice to fit the symptoms - rather than throwing absolutely every conceiveable cause of non-starting into the melting pot. I trust you've heard the phrase 'less is more'. :happy2: :smiley:
Fuel pump follower
Don't really agree. Problems regarding the fuel pump follower are only likely to be evident during high revs, high engine loadings. Starting and idling will put a negligable duty on the HPFP.
I have had a broken follower cause starting issues as the cam wasnt pushing the fuel pump enough to get correct starting pressure.
OK, fairy-nuff, but a broken follower is likey to make a noise. However, in this specific instance, the OP has not reported any 'noise' which is likely to be a broken cam. Also, if there was an issue with a broken fuel pump follower - the ECU would log DTCs relating to low fuel pressure, and is highly likely to go into limp home mode - I don't recall the OP indicating any such actions. :smiley:
Spark Plugs
And . . . again, just like the high pressure fuel side - faulty spark plugs will generally show up under hard engine loads.
You can still get miss sparks when cranking, but yes it should show up under driving too.
Agree - fully. What I am trying to state is that faulty spark plugs do not exclusively affect starting issues - the OP (IIRC) said it goes like stink when running normally - so it is increadibly unlikey that dodgy spark plugs are the cause of the OPs problems. :smiley:
Air leaks, do a pressure test
From where? You are now just clutching at straws!
You can pressure test before the turbo and after the turbo. If there are any leaks then they can cause starting ussues.
Huh - a pressure test BEFORE the turbo will reveal exacty what???? Exactly the same as your baramoeter in your porch! ALL Bosch MED ECUs include atmospheric compensation - so this test is as good as useless.
But again, whilst I agree that air leaks will potentially cause starting issues, they will also be more than apparent under load - and the OP reported no such issues. :smiley:
Diverter Valve
Yeah . . . . rite . . . . so just how much boost, on an Edition 30 is being generated at tick-over? :stupid:
Its not about producing boost. If there is extra air getting in then it takes more for the engine to start.
Huh - from that explanation, you seem to not know how the diverter valve works. It does NOT vent to atmosphere, it is a closed loop recirculating valve - so a faulty DV (unless it has been physically smashed off with a big rock) will NOT have any effect on starting, nor on tickover, nor upto about 2,250 (on a K04 car).
Cat is still in one piece
Does it rattle? And what about closed-loop lambda control?
Again, clutching at straws without actually thinking . . .
If the cat is blocked then it stops air getting out of the exhaust. May not show a starting issue, but the car also isnt driving that well. I guess you have put your foot on the end of an exhaust before and it can cause the engine to stall.
I agree if the cat was blocked, it would prevent exhaust gasses exiting. But the dash would be lit up like a christmas tree LONG before any sniff of a cat blockage. And I certainly don't recall the OP stating his car wasn't driving well.
Secondly, do you know how cats get blocked? Even if an engine is burning masses of oil (ie, serious smoke screens in your rear window), the cat blocks quite slowly, and progressively. It is highly unlikely that a cat would ever get totally blocked from burning oil.
The usual way for a cat to block is if they have sustained a very hard impact - either by driving over quite a large rock - or a dodgy mechanic hitting them hard with a club hammer. Both instances will clearly show impact damage on the outer metal casing of the cat!
Turbo spins freely
Have you been geting your technical advice from Ceebeebies? :stupid:
:fighting:
Sorry - perhaps I should have added a naughty smiley! :evilgrin:
:drinking:
You mentioned carbon build up on the intake valves, did they find anything?
All FSI engines will have carbon build up on the intake valves.
And all non-FSI engines will also have carbon on said valves. . . . .
Yes they will all have carbon build up on the valves, but some have excess amounts of carbon build up on the valve. This restricts air flow to the engine.
Sorry - but this has got to be THE greatest load of internet bull$hit about FSI engines.
IF there was any substancial build up of carbon, this would still NOT affect low speed or starting issues.
I want to give as many suggestions as possible to help the guy out. A starting issue could be one of many different things and if i can help then I will. Im cool with constructive critisism with realistic resoning.
Fairy-nuff. But there are plenty of stories of incompetent main dealers who can NOT correctly diagnose problems, and charge customers for completely needless diagnostic proceedures - and many of your suggestions do NOT fit the symptoms the OP described. Surely, we should all be trying to save other fourmites money, not encouraging them to spend more!
:smiley: :drinking:
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Surely, we should all be trying to save other fourmites money, not encouraging them to spend more!
:smiley: :drinking:
....Sorry to go off-topic for a second but I need to remind you of what's written:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FRED_INK%2FGTIforum_HelpSlipperySlope.jpg&hash=84efac0c69de7d6ccf6d3b434354e0f596c81722)
Back on topic: A most interesting and educational discussion and am glad it's calm and not heated! :drinking:
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She can nursey me any day! :ashamed:
:evilgrin: :evilgrin:
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Never any need to get heated. :P
I think the main issue is trying to find a fault from behind a keyboard. Its much easier to have a car infront of you to then see fault codes, listen to how its running/starting etc to then use your knowledge to find the fault. I mearly listed parts that the OP should be able to look at himself. By the sounds of it, most things have already been looked at, which leaves other things that may or may not contribute to the starting issue.
There have been quite a few reports of poorly running cars due to excessive build up on the intake valves. Maybe I should have changed it from carbon to sludgy oil. The title has been changed from the original to have the 'Large Carbon deposits on Injectors' added after that issue had been found.
The DV could be letting in air from atmosphere if there is a substantial crack etc. So its worth giving it a visual check.
When I say you can pressure test before the turbo I dont mean just checking the intake, i mean you can add the pressure before the turbo which will then pressure test the whole system up to head. Just a miss understanding of what I meant. Everyone should be able to read my mind :evilgrin:
Cats also get damaged from excess heat. They can shrink and then block pipework. More common on aftermarket cats, but ive seen collapsing on oem cats too.
Im not trying to cause extra expenson on the OP.
:notworthy:
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Never any need to get heated. :P
True - I'm probably well guilty of that, sorry. Anyhow, I'm not getting heated - just 'pasionate'! :P :grin:
I think the main issue is trying to find a fault from behind a keyboard. Its much easier to have a car infront of you to then see fault codes, listen to how its running/starting etc to then use your knowledge to find the fault.
You are so right! 'Suppose that is one of the main perils we run as forumites!
I mearly listed parts that the OP should be able to look at himself. By the sounds of it, most things have already been looked at, which leaves other things that may or may not contribute to the starting issue.
I guess you meant well with your intentions :happy2: - and I suppose you wanted to make sure you touched all 'bases'. I just reckon that too MUCH info can potentially be as bad as too little. I suppose you are damned if you do, damned if you dont! Anyway, peace mate! :drinking:
There have been quite a few reports of poorly running cars due to excessive build up on the intake valves. Maybe I should have changed it from carbon to sludgy oil.
I'm not convinced this as big a problem as is being made out. Don't forget, the vast majority of these claims come from America - where they have very poor fuel quality (compared to Western Europe), and use poor quality oils. North American fuels still contain very high levels of sulfur (which is the reason why North American FSI engines can't run in lean-burn mode, and why ALL European cars in North America are not recommended to use longlife oils - which are invariably mid- or low-SAPS).
Threre must now be millions of direct injection cars on Europes roads (VW Group with their FSI, Mitsubishi with their GDI - and now Porsche, BMW and Ford are all introducing the technology), yet there is not a sniff of an 'epidemic' relating to sludged up valves!
The title has been changed from the original to have the 'Large Carbon deposits on Injectors' added after that issue had been found.
Sorry, didn't realise that.
The DV could be letting in air from atmosphere if there is a substantial crack etc. So its worth giving it a visual check.
Hmmmm . . . technically, you may be right. But I'd find it hard to believe it possible to cause that kind of physical damage - weather bolted onto the K03, or remote on the K04. And if is was like that, you'd hear it leak, and feel the performance loss.
When I say you can pressure test before the turbo I dont mean just checking the intake, i mean you can add the pressure before the turbo which will then pressure test the whole system up to head. Just a miss understanding of what I meant. Everyone should be able to read my mind :evilgrin:
Oi - I think like that too!!! :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
Cats also get damaged from excess heat. They can shrink and then block pipework. More common on aftermarket cats, but ive seen collapsing on oem cats too.
Hmmmm. OEM ceramic cats should never get damaged from excess heat. Ceramics have a truely massive thermal tollerance - sommat like 2,500 degC. Indeed, modern cars actually inject fuel during the exhaust stroke to then burn in the actual cat to quicly ramp up its operating temperature.
You may be right with steel substrate cats though. But then OEM-wise, no Volkswagens have steel cats, they are all ceramic. And only 'RS' (and R8) Audis have steel - normal Audis, and even 'S' Audis also have ceramic.
Im not trying to cause extra expenson on the OP.
:notworthy:
Sorry, didn't mean to point the finger at you personally. It was more of a generalisation, mainly aimed at stealers who repeately mis-diagnose, whilst charging their customers!
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:drinking:
The main OEM cat that ive seen start to shrink was on 3 or 4 MK4 R32/MK1 TT 3.2 cats. Another one that APS had in had fully collapsted. The were metal cats. Al the 1.8T S3's/TT quattro cars have metal cats too.
Its only really the A4's etc that have the ceramic cats. Get alot more money for them down the scrappy!
Im only really going off the cats ive removed from turbo cats on this one. The FSi's are ceramic.
Alot of the direct injecton dervs are common for intake/valve sludge build-up. This really affects performance.
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:drinking:
The main OEM cat that ive seen start to shrink was on 3 or 4 MK4 R32/MK1 TT 3.2 cats. Another one that APS had in had fully collapsted. The were metal cats. Al the 1.8T S3's/TT quattro cars have metal cats too.
R U sure? I know that all 180PS 1.8 20vT have ceramics, and I thought the S3 was the same. The S4, S5, S6 & S8 are all ceramic. TTs tend to not interest me . . . . And I'm fairly sure the Mk5 R32 & Mk2 A3 3.2 are also ceramic.
Alot of the direct injecton dervs are common for intake/valve sludge build-up. This really affects performance.
Hmmmmm . . . . now that . . . . I really have to disagree with. Direct injection diesels have been around since the early 1970s. I used to work on commercial vehicles, including the mighty 14.8 litre Cummins V8 (which had a very ingenious injection system, similar to VAG Pumpe Duse) - and again, not an issue. Diesel doesn't burn hot enough to create hard sludge.
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Err Hello :signLOL:
Just a quick thank you to everyone that’s posted. I should probably change the title to this thread me thinks..... Anyway the injectors were cleaned and since I've had the car back I can still feel a stutter on start-up but after showing a few friends/work colleagues, in all honesty I think they're wondering what the hell I'm smoking as to them it sounds fine. I can still hear that stutter and it's definitely worse the longer the car is left to sit.
All I have noticed since having the car back is that it judders significantly more on idle, and appears to be worse while the car is facing uphill which still makes me lean towards a fuelling issue but I'm still fishing in the dark. I have also noticed if the car is facing down hill (idling, i.e. stationary traffic) the judder is no where near as bad. Maybe I'm just :stupid: and it's nothing
Teutonic_Tamer - You're not the first person to tell me I'm coming off the starter to early, I never have this problem in any other car I drive (girlfriend/parents/hire car with work) nor any of my previous golf’s, the ED30 being my 3rd :smiley: I'll try holding a little longer - it's just with my very first car the ignition switch locked on (OK I admit it was a Corsa) and burnt out my starter motor so had kind of learnt this could happen from that experience, especially given the mechanic I used didn't bother to replace the ignition switch so 2 months later I had to replace another starter motor.
Ideally what I'd like to do is find someone off here with VAG COM who has made some good suggestions at what the issue could be. I will happily pay for your time, at least to satisfy my mind that I'm worrying about nothing.
Oh and as stated, the car goes very well – in fact I'd say it pulls even better after the injectors have been cleaned
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:drinking:
The main OEM cat that ive seen start to shrink was on 3 or 4 MK4 R32/MK1 TT 3.2 cats. Another one that APS had in had fully collapsted. The were metal cats. Al the 1.8T S3's/TT quattro cars have metal cats too.
R U sure? I know that all 180PS 1.8 20vT have ceramics, and I thought the S3 was the same. The S4, S5, S6 & S8 are all ceramic. TTs tend to not interest me . . . . And I'm fairly sure the Mk5 R32 & Mk2 A3 3.2 are also ceramic.
Deffo metal on the TT and S3's. The MK5 R32's are ceramic, but the MK4's are not.
Alot of the direct injecton dervs are common for intake/valve sludge build-up. This really affects performance.
Hmmmmm . . . . now that . . . . I really have to disagree with. Direct injection diesels have been around since the early 1970s. I used to work on commercial vehicles, including the mighty 14.8 litre Cummins V8 (which had a very ingenious injection system, similar to VAG Pumpe Duse) - and again, not an issue. Diesel doesn't burn hot enough to create hard sludge.
[/quote]
Not hard sludge. Soft sludge. Seen loads of the old 1.9tdi's and some PD's very blocked up with sludge. Had an A8 4.2V8 derv in a few months back and the inlet was nearly blocked with sh*t. Drives like a new car now. The parts washer wasnt amused!
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All I have noticed since having the car back is that it judders significantly more on idle, and appears to be worse while the car is facing uphill which still makes me lean towards a fuelling issue but I'm still fishing in the dark. I have also noticed if the car is facing down hill (idling, i.e. stationary traffic) the judder is no where near as bad. Maybe I'm just :stupid: and it's nothing
HooooKaaaayyyy. Dunno if I (or anyone else) mentioned this - change your fuel filter. This is sited under the car next to the petrol tank. This is overlooked, but is quite important because it basically controls the low pressure side of the fuel delivery (which is more likely to be affected by gravity). The fuel filter includes a fuel pressure regulator, which basically returns excess fuel, supplied by the in-tank lift pump, back into the fuel tank. If the pressure regulator is faulty, it might not be building up enough pressure in the low pressure side to fully supply the high pressure FSI pump. I just changed mine at 4yrs/40k miles, and there was some resistance when giving it a blow job trying to blow through it. New one is £20 +vat, part no 1K0 201 051 C.
Teutonic_Tamer - You're not the first person to tell me I'm coming off the starter to early, I never have this problem in any other car I drive (girlfriend/parents/hire car with work) nor any of my previous golf’s, the ED30 being my 3rd :smiley: I'll try holding a little longer - it's just with my very first car the ignition switch locked on (OK I admit it was a Corsa) and burnt out my starter motor so had kind of learnt this could happen from that experience, especially given the mechanic I used didn't bother to replace the ignition switch so 2 months later I had to replace another starter motor.
NOT holding the starter long enough is quite an endemic problem. Modern cars with push button starters (such as my RS4, Reno Meganes, etc) or similar eliminate this problem. Even if I only press the starter button for say half a second, the starter will continue to crank for as long as it takes. If you've run the tank dry, or got a flatish batt, the starter will crank for 15-20 seconds.
Secondly, ALL starter motors have an over-running gear. Think of the over-running rear hubs on bicyles (normal ones, not like fixed gear that Hoy and Pendleton ride :P) - when you pedal to accelerate, the drive is transmitted to the rear wheel - but when you go down a steep hill, the rear wheel spins faster than you can pedal. Starter motors are the same - once the engine fires and idles, it over-runs the starter. Most modern starters also have a thermal cut out - a bit like a circuit breaker, so shouldn't burn out.
Ideally what I'd like to do is find someone off here with VAG COM who has made some good suggestions at what the issue could be. I will happily pay for your time, at least to satisfy my mind that I'm worrying about nothing.
Where are you based?
Oh and as stated, the car goes very well – in fact I'd say it pulls even better after the injectors have been cleaned
:happy2:
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:drinking:
The main OEM cat that ive seen start to shrink was on 3 or 4 MK4 R32/MK1 TT 3.2 cats. Another one that APS had in had fully collapsted. The were metal cats. Al the 1.8T S3's/TT quattro cars have metal cats too.
R U sure? I know that all 180PS 1.8 20vT have ceramics, and I thought the S3 was the same. The S4, S5, S6 & S8 are all ceramic. TTs tend to not interest me . . . . And I'm fairly sure the Mk5 R32 & Mk2 A3 3.2 are also ceramic.
Deffo metal on the TT and S3's. The MK5 R32's are ceramic, but the MK4's are not.
OK, thanks for clarifying. :drinking:
Alot of the direct injecton dervs are common for intake/valve sludge build-up. This really affects performance.
Hmmmmm . . . . now that . . . . I really have to disagree with. Direct injection diesels have been around since the early 1970s. I used to work on commercial vehicles, including the mighty 14.8 litre Cummins V8 (which had a very ingenious injection system, similar to VAG Pumpe Duse) - and again, not an issue. Diesel doesn't burn hot enough to create hard sludge.
Not hard sludge. Soft sludge. Seen loads of the old 1.9tdi's and some PD's very blocked up with sludge. Had an A8 4.2V8 derv in a few months back and the inlet was nearly blocked with sh*t. Drives like a new car now. The parts washer wasnt amused!
Maybe these current 'high performance' diesels are creating higher combustion chamber temps. Anyone logged EGTs on a TDI 140 or 170? :nerd:
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OK - When I got in the car to come home from work this evening I was determined not to let go of the starter too early. Anyway the car still stuttered, but to me it appeared to stutter a bit longer as though it was the starter was dragging the engine somehow.
All I have noticed since having the car back is that it judders significantly more on idle, and appears to be worse while the car is facing uphill which still makes me lean towards a fuelling issue but I'm still fishing in the dark. I have also noticed if the car is facing down hill (idling, i.e. stationary traffic) the judder is no where near as bad. Maybe I'm just :stupid: and it's nothing
HooooKaaaayyyy. Dunno if I (or anyone else) mentioned this - change your fuel filter. This is sited under the car next to the petrol tank. This is overlooked, but is quite important because it basically controls the low pressure side of the fuel delivery (which is more likely to be affected by gravity). The fuel filter includes a fuel pressure regulator, which basically returns excess fuel, supplied by the in-tank lift pump, back into the fuel tank. If the pressure regulator is faulty, it might not be building up enough pressure in the low pressure side to fully supply the high pressure FSI pump. I just changed mine at 4yrs/40k miles, and there was some resistance when giving it a blow job trying to blow through it. New one is £20 +vat, part no 1K0 201 051 C.
Teutonic_Tamer - You're not the first person to tell me I'm coming off the starter to early, I never have this problem in any other car I drive (girlfriend/parents/hire car with work) nor any of my previous golf’s, the ED30 being my 3rd :smiley: I'll try holding a little longer - it's just with my very first car the ignition switch locked on (OK I admit it was a Corsa) and burnt out my starter motor so had kind of learnt this could happen from that experience, especially given the mechanic I used didn't bother to replace the ignition switch so 2 months later I had to replace another starter motor.
NOT holding the starter long enough is quite an endemic problem. Modern cars with push button starters (such as my RS4, Reno Meganes, etc) or similar eliminate this problem. Even if I only press the starter button for say half a second, the starter will continue to crank for as long as it takes. If you've run the tank dry, or got a flatish batt, the starter will crank for 15-20 seconds.
Secondly, ALL starter motors have an over-running gear. Think of the over-running rear hubs on bicyles (normal ones, not like fixed gear that Hoy and Pendleton ride :P) - when you pedal to accelerate, the drive is transmitted to the rear wheel - but when you go down a steep hill, the rear wheel spins faster than you can pedal. Starter motors are the same - once the engine fires and idles, it over-runs the starter. Most modern starters also have a thermal cut out - a bit like a circuit breaker, so shouldn't burn out.
Ideally what I'd like to do is find someone off here with VAG COM who has made some good suggestions at what the issue could be. I will happily pay for your time, at least to satisfy my mind that I'm worrying about nothing.
Where are you based?
Oh and as stated, the car goes very well – in fact I'd say it pulls even better after the injectors have been cleaned
:happy2:
I had considered replacing the fuel filter next - I think I'll get one tomorrow and see if someone near by where I work can fit it for me.
I'm based in Hereford and judging by my searches on here, golfgtiforum, uk-mkivs etc. a fair way from anyone with VAG COM who knows how to interrogate the measuring blocks and understand the results.
Thanks for all your input by the way :drinking:
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You don't need VCDS to replace the fuel filter. In fact, you only need one tool - Philips No2 screwdriver (or was it a Tx20 Torx driver). The fuel lines are all quick release, and can be done by hand. If you can jack up a car and change a wheel, then you can arguably change the fuel filter.
Oh - when you do change the fuel filter, try to make sure the tank is less than a quarter full.
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Doh!! I filled up on my way home this evening
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Stopped off at VW on my way into work this morning, I gave them my registration number and they came back with fuel filter part number 1K0 201 051K.
Does this mean it's just a later revision than the part number you supplied? A garage around the corner said they'd fit it for a £10 so I'm just going to get them to do it on a ramp
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Stopped off at VW on my way into work this morning, I gave them my registration number and they came back with fuel filter part number 1K0 201 051K.
Does this mean it's just a later revision than the part number you supplied? A garage around the corner said they'd fit it for a £10 so I'm just going to get them to do it on a ramp
Maybe the K version is a later revision. I bought my C version about 2-3 months ago - so possibly. My ETKA is seriously out of date though - so I can't even check your new number!
Anyway, have you purchased it? If so, it should be cylindrical, made from aluminium alloy, about the size of heinz soup for one can (with a slighly stepped diameter at one end). One end will have one connection in the centre, the other end has two connections - one in the centre and one offset. It should also have '6.4 bar' stamped on it. Oh, it might have some black lettering on it - 'UFI 31 840 00'.
HTH
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Stopped off at VW on my way into work this morning, I gave them my registration number and they came back with fuel filter part number 1K0 201 051K.
Does this mean it's just a later revision than the part number you supplied? A garage around the corner said they'd fit it for a £10 so I'm just going to get them to do it on a ramp
Maybe the K version is a later revision. I bought my C version about 2-3 months ago - so possibly. My ETKA is seriously out of date though - so I can't even check your new number!
Anyway, have you purchased it? If so, it should be cylindrical, made from aluminium alloy, about the size of heinz soup for one can (with a slighly stepped diameter at one end). One end will have one connection in the centre, the other end has two connections - one in the centre and one offset. It should also have '6.4 bar' stamped on it. Oh, it might have some black lettering on it - 'UFI 31 840 00'.
HTH
TT the reason you cant check it on ETKA is how you are searching. Dont look for letters, you need to look for varieties. Everyone knows that Heinz do 57 types. :P
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Stopped off at VW on my way into work this morning, I gave them my registration number and they came back with fuel filter part number 1K0 201 051K.
Does this mean it's just a later revision than the part number you supplied? A garage around the corner said they'd fit it for a £10 so I'm just going to get them to do it on a ramp
Maybe the K version is a later revision. I bought my C version about 2-3 months ago - so possibly. My ETKA is seriously out of date though - so I can't even check your new number!
Anyway, have you purchased it? If so, it should be cylindrical, made from aluminium alloy, about the size of heinz soup for one can (with a slighly stepped diameter at one end). One end will have one connection in the centre, the other end has two connections - one in the centre and one offset. It should also have '6.4 bar' stamped on it. Oh, it might have some black lettering on it - 'UFI 31 840 00'.
HTH
TT the reason you cant check it on ETKA is how you are searching. Dont look for letters, you need to look for varieties. Everyone knows that Heinz do 57 types. :P
Huh - BS! If you DON'T include the letters, you'll never get the correct part! I just searched with the C letter - and the part came up just fine.
Unless, that is, you are using sommat other than genuine ETKA - or maybe you are running 7.2?
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I thought the clue in my answer was the Heinz 57 varieties bit. :grin:
My joke went straight over your head. :fighting2:
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I thought the clue in my answer was the Heinz 57 varieties bit. :grin:
My joke went straight over your head. :fighting2:
Doh . . . where's the 'sense of humour failure' smilie? :ashamed:
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Stopped off at VW on my way into work this morning, I gave them my registration number and they came back with fuel filter part number 1K0 201 051K.
Does this mean it's just a later revision than the part number you supplied? A garage around the corner said they'd fit it for a £10 so I'm just going to get them to do it on a ramp
Maybe the K version is a later revision. I bought my C version about 2-3 months ago - so possibly. My ETKA is seriously out of date though - so I can't even check your new number!
Anyway, have you purchased it? If so, it should be cylindrical, made from aluminium alloy, about the size of heinz soup for one can (with a slighly stepped diameter at one end). One end will have one connection in the centre, the other end has two connections - one in the centre and one offset. It should also have '6.4 bar' stamped on it. Oh, it might have some black lettering on it - 'UFI 31 840 00'.
HTH
Hi yes it does indeed.
I've found a VW specialist in Hereford (volkshop) and he's going to fit my new fuel filter on Thursday morning. He asked me to explain the issue to him, he seemed pretty clued up but suggested it was down to poor fuel and the TFSI engine, he mentioned he knew someone at the Audi garage and they'd had lots of issues with this type of engine and poor fuel being used. Anyway I'm not going to add anymore fuel to my fire and just get him to replace the fuel filter and go from there - it certainly makes sense to me as the car doesn't judder when I'm parked on a slope facing downwards. I had no idea there was a pressure regulator inside, if I'd know this I'd of had it doen ages ago!
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he seemed pretty clued up but suggested it was down to poor fuel and the TFSI engine, he mentioned he knew someone at the Audi garage and they'd had lots of issues with this type of engine and poor fuel being used.
....It's probably mostly us enthusiasts who are exclusive users of higher grade petrols such as V-Power. There are loads of Mr & Mrs Jo Average-Driver owners of GTI's who merely view them as the most upmarket Golf they can buy for neighbourhood status and then buy their petrol as cheap as they can get it and do so in ignorance of VW's recommendations - What's a Handbook? :rolleye:
Of course the VW dealers have to deal with such people. You should hear some of the stories my VW dealer tells me about some of their other customers - No wonder I get so royally treated!
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Stopped off at VW on my way into work this morning, I gave them my registration number and they came back with fuel filter part number 1K0 201 051K.
Does this mean it's just a later revision than the part number you supplied? A garage around the corner said they'd fit it for a £10 so I'm just going to get them to do it on a ramp
Maybe the K version is a later revision. I bought my C version about 2-3 months ago - so possibly. My ETKA is seriously out of date though - so I can't even check your new number!
Anyway, have you purchased it? If so, it should be cylindrical, made from aluminium alloy, about the size of heinz soup for one can (with a slighly stepped diameter at one end). One end will have one connection in the centre, the other end has two connections - one in the centre and one offset. It should also have '6.4 bar' stamped on it. Oh, it might have some black lettering on it - 'UFI 31 840 00'.
HTH
Hi yes it does indeed.
I've found a VW specialist in Hereford (volkshop) and he's going to fit my new fuel filter on Thursday morning. He asked me to explain the issue to him, he seemed pretty clued up but suggested it was down to poor fuel and the TFSI engine, he mentioned he knew someone at the Audi garage and they'd had lots of issues with this type of engine and poor fuel being used. Anyway I'm not going to add anymore fuel to my fire and just get him to replace the fuel filter and go from there - it certainly makes sense to me as the car doesn't judder when I'm parked on a slope facing downwards. I had no idea there was a pressure regulator inside, if I'd know this I'd of had it doen ages ago!
I'd echo the comments on poor fuel.
I don't know if you are aware, but the Mk5 GTI engine was specifically 'set up' to use 98RON unleaded (look inside your fuel flap) - which is European 'Super Unleaded'. If you don't run it on 98RON juice, then the engine ECU will constantly be retarding the ignition timing from its optimal setting - and probably more importantly, it won't be able to use 'lean burn' mode (basically using more fuel). In the UK, most Super Unleadeds are only 97RON (BP, Esso, Total, Jet, Sainsburys) - there are only two fuels in the UK which comply with the European norm for Super Unleaded - namely Tesco Momentum 99, and Shell V-Power - both of which are 99RON.
Also on fuel, most 'standard' unleadeds, generally have less additives and detergents compared to the more expensive Super Unleadeds - and the standard unleadeds from the supermarkets are even worse. :sick:
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is it right or wrong that lean burn stratified mode was disabled on later cars?
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is it right or wrong that lean burn stratified mode was disabled on later cars?
Lean burn stratified mode never was, and never has been disabled on European cars.
But it was never enabled at all on North American cars.
The inclusion or not of lean burn mode is soley down to the fuel quality available in the relevent country. Lean burn needs an ultra-clean 'Ultra Low Sulfur [unleaded] Petrol' (ULSP), and this has been available in the EU since the early 1990s (ish). But North America, whilst being an early adopter of lead-free 'gasoline', still has high quantities of sulfur in their gas.
It was the sh!t fuel in the US which basically killed imports of the Mitsubishi GDI engine in the mid to late 1980s
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I'd echo the comments on poor fuel.
I don't know if you are aware, but the Mk5 GTI engine was specifically 'set up' to use 98RON unleaded (look inside your fuel flap) - which is European 'Super Unleaded'. If you don't run it on 98RON juice, then the engine ECU will constantly be retarding the ignition timing from its optimal setting - and probably more importantly, it won't be able to use 'lean burn' mode (basically using more fuel). In the UK, most Super Unleadeds are only 97RON (BP, Esso, Total, Jet, Sainsburys) - there are only two fuels in the UK which comply with the European norm for Super Unleaded - namely Tesco Momentum 99, and Shell V-Power - both of which are 99RON.
Also on fuel, most 'standard' unleadeds, generally have less additives and detergents compared to the more expensive Super Unleadeds - and the standard unleadeds from the supermarkets are even worse. :sick:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FRED_INK%2FV-Power_FuelPassion.jpg&hash=56af14bbbc04b08b24b0485632a6f24152417563)
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Uh oh spagettio....
I may have been running mine on Sainsbury's Super since I had it - I am aware that it's only 97 RON but thought it was basically BP super. I can't comment what the last owner has run the car on but she was an 'older' lady shall we say and I can't see her as having been filling up with super unleaded to be honest.
I can get Shell V-Power or Tesco Super where I live - I'm guess Tesco ain't much cop either as it's supermarket fuel so I'll start filling up with V-Power from now on.
Could that point to my problem then - and will the damage be lasting? :sad1:
I ran the car when I had it back from the garage on V-Power with Forte in it and the cold start never changed from what it is now, nor has it changed since I've put a few tanks of Sainsbury's super in it.
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I've been running mine on shell V Power for the last year since I've owned it and I have the same problem on cold starts albeit not quite as bad as yours appears.
Lookin forward to hearing about your fuel filter replacement results!
Cheers Phil.
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Uh oh spagettio....
I may have been running mine on Sainsbury's Super since I had it - I am aware that it's only 97 RON but thought it was basically BP super.
Yikes!!! :scared:
Oh, and BP havn't supplied Sainsburys for around 6ish years now - they just fill their fourcourts with any 'unbranded' and additive-free crap. So whilst their Super may be 97RON - it has bugger all additives to keep your fuel system and engine clean. :sick:
I can't comment what the last owner has run the car on but she was an 'older' lady shall we say and I can't see her as having been filling up with super unleaded to be honest.
OK, now some 'truths' about fuel useage are emerging - get yourself two tins of VWs latest petrol fuel additive - G 001 770 A2 - bung one whole 90ml can in a fresh tankful. Maybe best to do this after the new fuel filter.
I can get Shell V-Power or Tesco Super where I live - I'm guess Tesco ain't much cop either as it's supermarket fuel so I'll start filling up with V-Power from now on.
Tesco Momentum 99 is just as good as Shell V-Power. It has been proven in independent tests to be slightly better than V-Power, and spanks BP Ultimate. Tescos Super Unleaded isn't like other supermarket fuels - it is made by www.GreenErgy.co.uk - the UKs fourth largest road fuels company, and the pioneer of B2.5 and B5 bio fuels. 8) And it is the official fuel of the British Rally Championship.
Could that point to my problem then - and will the damage be lasting? :sad1:
I'd strongly point to cr@p fuel being a major contributory factor with your issues.
And lasting damage? Its hard to say. Probably more damage was caused by the old dear who owned it before. If she was on LongLife servicing, did lots of short journeys (cold starts, overfueling, oil dilution, etc), never spanked it to burn off contaminents in the engine oil - then that is likely to be more damaging. Do you have the service book? Was it on LongLife servicing? How old is the car and how many miles has it done?
I ran the car when I had it back from the garage on V-Power with Forte in it and the cold start never changed from what it is now, not has it changed since I've put a few tanks of Sainsbury's super in it.
To be honest, your engine will need three or four starts from cold to allow the ECU to re-adjust to the higher octane fuel - and I doubt you'd fully run your tank dry - so the V-Power is still gonna be diluted with the crap fuel left in the tank.
And what specifically was the Forte you used? Got a linky? Based on the cars' history, I doubt one tin of fuel treatment will have any chance of majorly cleaning your fuel system.
Just like it probably got 'progressively crap running', it will probably take maybe four full tanks of decent juice, and a couple of cans of fuel cleaner additive to get it back to normal.
HTH
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I've been running mine on shell V Power for the last year since I've owned it and I have the same problem on cold starts albeit not quite as bad as yours appears.
Give Tesco Momentum a try. Whilst Tesco and V-Power both have advanced high tech additives, they do differ. And maybe you can try some of the VW fuel additive.
Lookin forward to hearing about your fuel filter replacement results!
What's the history of yours? How old? How many miles? What servicing regime? What brand & spec of oil?
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Uh oh spagettio....
I may have been running mine on Sainsbury's Super since I had it - I am aware that it's only 97 RON but thought it was basically BP super.
Yikes!!! :scared:
Oh, and BP havn't supplied Sainsburys for around 6ish years now - they just fill their fourcourts with any 'unbranded' and additive-free crap. So whilst their Super may be 97RON - it has bugger all additives to keep your fuel system and engine clean. :sick:
I can't comment what the last owner has run the car on but she was an 'older' lady shall we say and I can't see her as having been filling up with super unleaded to be honest.
OK, now some 'truths' about fuel useage are emerging - get yourself two tins of VWs latest petrol fuel additive - G 001 770 A2 - bung one whole 90ml can in a fresh tankful. Maybe best to do this after the new fuel filter.
I can get Shell V-Power or Tesco Super where I live - I'm guess Tesco ain't much cop either as it's supermarket fuel so I'll start filling up with V-Power from now on.
Tesco Momentum 99 is just as good as Shell V-Power. It has been proven in independent tests to be slightly better than V-Power, and spanks BP Ultimate. Tescos Super Unleaded isn't like other supermarket fuels - it is made by www.GreenErgy.co.uk - the UKs fourth largest road fuels company, and the pioneer of B2.5 and B5 bio fuels. 8) And it is the official fuel of the British Rally Championship.
Could that point to my problem then - and will the damage be lasting? :sad1:
I'd strongly point to cr@p fuel being a major contributory factor with your issues.
And lasting damage? Its hard to say. Probably more damage was caused by the old dear who owned it before. If she was on LongLife servicing, did lots of short journeys (cold starts, overfueling, oil dilution, etc), never spanked it to burn off contaminents in the engine oil - then that is likely to be more damaging. Do you have the service book? Was it on LongLife servicing? How old is the car and how many miles has it done?
I ran the car when I had it back from the garage on V-Power with Forte in it and the cold start never changed from what it is now, not has it changed since I've put a few tanks of Sainsbury's super in it.
To be honest, your engine will need three or four starts from cold to allow the ECU to re-adjust to the higher octane fuel - and I doubt you'd fully run your tank dry - so the V-Power is still gonna be diluted with the crap fuel left in the tank.
And what specifically was the Forte you used? Got a linky? Based on the cars' history, I doubt one tin of fuel treatment will have any chance of majorly cleaning your fuel system.
Just like it probably got 'progressively crap running', it will probably take maybe four full tanks of decent juice, and a couple of cans of fuel cleaner additive to get it back to normal.
HTH
The head tech at VW recommended I run Forte Specialist Injector Cleaner - he got me some, it looked like this:
http://www.aaautospares.com/forte.html
The car was never on long life, although it's a long life service book it's been crossed out in biro and the cars been on time/distance. It's been serviced every 12 months since new, car was registered in March 2007 and has three stamps at Halifax VW. The mileage on the car whn I bought it was just over 20K and I have managed to get it up to almost 22.5K.
I thought I'd read somewhere that I wasn't supposed to put too many fuel additives in as it can dilute the oil?
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Lookin forward to hearing about your fuel filter replacement results!
What's the history of yours? How old? How many miles? What servicing regime? What brand & spec of oil?
Reg May 08, purchased Oct 09 with nearly 12k miles, one owner, Oct 10 now on 20300 miles.
Serviced by VW May 09 with Helix, May 10 with ? - VW approved oil, think 5W 30. Time/distance.
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The head tech at VW recommended I run Forte Specialist Injector Cleaner - he got me some, it looked like this:
http://www.aaautospares.com/forte.html
I'm not a fan of Forte stuff. Basically American stuff - designed for their high sulfur fuels rather than our ULSP. And they have fairly high pressure marketing techniques at garages too. I know a couple of garage owners who have been - well quite pi$$ed off by their heavy pressure - yet failing to offer any technical backup. Pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap (but they aint cheap to the end user). The more descerning and technically sympathetic garages and teccys use Wurth stuff - Wurth is prolly THE best non-genuine consumables ranges. Wurth also supply OEMs too. But I guess your head tech at the VW stealer was chasing commissions targets!
The car was never on long life, although it's a long life service book it's been crossed out in biro and the cars been on time/distance. It's been serviced every 12 months since new, car was registered in March 2007 and has three stamps at Halifax VW. The mileage on the car whn I bought it was just over 20K and I have managed to get it up to almost 22.5K.
Oh, OK, sounds better than first thought. What about the oil though? Because many stealers used poorer quality (ie, non-LongLife3 and non-FSI specific) oils when the car was on T&D servicing! The service book individual services should state if LL oil was used. And do you know which oil company the workshop has its contract with?
I thought I'd read somewhere that I wasn't supposed to put too many fuel additives in as it can dilute the oil?
Correct. But constantly running on non- Super Unleaded can also cause oil dilution! Rock and a hard place and all that. But at least you can change the oil. :wink:
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Lookin forward to hearing about your fuel filter replacement results!
What's the history of yours? How old? How many miles? What servicing regime? What brand & spec of oil?
Reg May 08, purchased Oct 09 with nearly 12k miles, one owner, Oct 10 now on 20300 miles.
Serviced by VW May 09 with Helix, May 10 with ? - VW approved oil, think 5W 30. Time/distance.
Oh boy - there are 23 different types of Shell Helix - ranging from 20w50 straight minerals, to 0w30 General Motors specific fully synthetic! Now I ain't saying that a VW garage will stock a GM-specific brew (even though TPS stock a Ford Zetec-only Synta Z! - wtf?) - but there are Helix oils with VW approvals, but which are not suitable for an FSI turbo engine.
And it gets worse with 'VW approved oil'! Mineral oils are approved - for Mk1 Golfs. The fact that they havn't recorded the brand is worrying. My guess is that they have just used inferior spec oils for T&D. I'd personally recommend doing an interim oil change with quality LL3 oil - and then supply your own oil on future services.
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:notworthy:
My head hurts :signLOL:
I'm not really sure why I should be chasing this issue anyway, I've not had the car 3 months and it's already cosy me almost £200. If it's poor fuel, why does it only do it when left to stand (overnight, car park at work 8ish hrs)? If it's been running a few minutes it starts perfectly. I've had a compression check and everything was perfect.
VW didn't have any fuel cleaner, they never stocked their own. The head tech's dad has an independant garage and had recommended Forte to him so he got me some through the dealer I think.
Just spoke to Halifax VW - 10W40 was used according to them over the phone, I have an invoice at home in the service book for the last service so would be intrested to see the part number for the oil. They seemed pretty sketchy over the phone even though I gave them the registration plate
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My posting about oil was whilst at work and from memory. I'll confirm the exact oil specs later!
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:notworthy:
My head hurts :signLOL:
I'm not really sure why I should be chasing this issue anyway, I've not had the car 3 months and it's already cosy me almost £200. If it's poor fuel, why does it only do it when left to stand (overnight, car park at work 8ish hrs)? If it's been running a few minutes it starts perfectly. I've had a compression check and everything was perfect.
I can't remember about your warranty - was it sommat to do with an Alfa garage?
Anyway, starting. I have another theory. The FSI system uses two fuel circuits - a conventional low pressure circuit (just like old skool fuel injection) - which delivers a high volume but relatively low pressure (6.4 bar). And then there is the high pressure side - is a low volume (relatively) but high pressure (130 bar). The high pressure side should keep a residual pressure in the common rail which supplies the four injectors (you have to manually release the pressure when working on the high pressure side) - and I reckon that some motors may not be holding enough residual pressure overnight. And then the engine needs to be physically turning before the high pressure can be fully built up again. Have you read the 'cold start' thread in this section?
VW didn't have any fuel cleaner, they never stocked their own. The head tech's dad has an independant garage and had recommended Forte to him so he got me some through the dealer I think.
Ahhh - that computes. :wink: It is usually the independents which Forte target.
Just spoke to Halifax VW - 10W40 was used according to them over the phone, I have an invoice at home in the service book for the last service so would be intrested to see the part number for the oil. They seemed pretty sketchy over the phone even though I gave them the registration plate
Right - that is BAD - 10w40 is categorically NOT approved for ANY official VW workshop use. Speak to the 'Dealer Principal', and basically tell him you will be reporting their dealership to Volkswagen UK - for using blatantly WRONG oils. If he argues - ask that he accompanies you to their parts desk, and that you both look at ETKA whilst their parts monkey inputs your VIN. Get them to go to model group 1 (engine), then illustration number 100-98. It categorically states that ONLY 5w30 LongLife 3 504.00 oils are used. Then go to the service manager, and get him to call up ELSA - in Autumn 2008 - Volkswagen Germany head office expressly TOLD (via ELSA) that ONLY LongLife 3 oils were to be used, from December 2008, for ALL vehicles serviced at official VW dealers - even if vehicles were on T&D servicing (OK, there are two exceptions - the 2.5 R5 TDI as fitted to the Transporter, and the other, the 5.0 V10 TDI PD from the Tourareg).
It makes my f*@king blood BOIL when stealers use the wrong oil. Basically, that 10w40 oil is ONLY certified to be used in non-PD diesels made before 2000 - it does not have any petrol engine approvals.
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My posting about oil was whilst at work and from memory. I'll confirm the exact oil specs later!
Oh, OK. But you may have gathered that the correct oil is rather important in these engines. :wink:
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:notworthy:
My head hurts :signLOL:
I'm not really sure why I should be chasing this issue anyway, I've not had the car 3 months and it's already cosy me almost £200. If it's poor fuel, why does it only do it when left to stand (overnight, car park at work 8ish hrs)? If it's been running a few minutes it starts perfectly. I've had a compression check and everything was perfect.
I can't remember about your warranty - was it sommat to do with an Alfa garage?
Anyway, starting. I have another theory. The FSI system uses two fuel circuits - a conventional low pressure circuit (just like old skool fuel injection) - which delivers a high volume but relatively low pressure (6.4 bar). And then there is the high pressure side - is a low volume (relatively) but high pressure (130 bar). The high pressure side should keep a residual pressure in the common rail which supplies the four injectors (you have to manually release the pressure when working on the high pressure side) - and I reckon that some motors may not be holding enough residual pressure overnight. And then the engine needs to be physically turning before the high pressure can be fully built up again. Have you read the 'cold start' thread in this section?
Just spoke to Halifax VW - 10W40 was used according to them over the phone, I have an invoice at home in the service book for the last service so would be intrested to see the part number for the oil. They seemed pretty sketchy over the phone even though I gave them the registration plate
Right - that is BAD - 10w40 is categorically NOT approved for ANY official VW workshop use. Speak to the 'Dealer Principal', and basically tell him you will be reporting their dealership to Volkswagen UK - for using blatantly WRONG oils. If he argues - ask that he accompanies you to their parts desk, and that you both look at ETKA whilst their parts monkey inputs your VIN. Get them to go to model group 1 (engine), then illustration number 100-98. It categorically states that ONLY 5w30 LongLife 3 504.00 oils are used. Then go to the service manager, and get him to call up ELSA - in Autumn 2008 - Volkswagen Germany head office expressly TOLD (via ELSA) that ONLY LongLife 3 oils were to be used, from December 2008, for ALL vehicles serviced at official VW dealers - even if vehicles were on T&D servicing (OK, there are two exceptions - the 2.5 R5 TDI as fitted to the Transporter, and the other, the 5.0 V10 TDI PD from the Tourareg).
It makes my f*@king blood BOIL when stealers use the wrong oil. Basically, that 10w40 oil is ONLY certified to be used in non-PD diesels made before 2000 - it does not have any petrol engine approvals.
Yes I purchased the car from an Alfa Romeo dealership in Yorkshire (a fair treck from Herefordshire) - it came with a three month warranty.
I have read the cold start thread several times - holding the starter longer doesn't help, in fact it seems to cause the engine to stutter more I'd say.
Does this mean the engine is foo barred then having been run on 10W40? As I say they were pretty sketchy and I have an invoice at home with the oil part number on it so will confirm when I get home later.
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First service June 09: 9680 miles: oil Helix Ultra VX 5W-30
Second service may 10: 16653 miles: oil Helix HX7 AV 10W-40
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Glad to see your car has had 10W40 - I just called 4 different dealers in the area (ish) and they all said T&D = 10W40.
My case manager with VW UK gave me a missed call earlier, I've been pretty busy so will have to give her a call tomorrow morning but I may ask her what she thinks of this. I'm getting the fuel filter changed tomorrow morning so I'll report back if it improves my judder at least (as the car will have been running to get to the garage)
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Had the fuel filter changed this morning, made no difference to the starting or shudder/judder I get on idle when stationary.
Anyway I had to scrape frost off the windows this morning so as you can imagine it was pretty cold. When I got in the car I was expecting it to be difficult to start. I turned the ignition on and waited for the lights to go out, then when I tried to start the car it took a little longer than usual for the engine to catch (not very long though) but when it caught it started straight up with no stutter.
I mentioned all of this to the specialist and he said temp sender maybe - he checked it through VCDS but it seemed to be reporting the right temperature. The mystery continues...
On another note some kind bint in a Peugeot decided to take my OS door mirror out this morning. Plastic case is scuffed, small graze right on edge but I need a new indicator unit that's for sure as the lens is broken. She just carried right on as well around the corner so couldn't get her plate- couldn't believe it. I picked up the pieces of her mirror as well
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Very interesting. So results are inconclusive at mo. Let me know what it's like tomoz plz. May need a couple of days to know for sure if it's worked or not?
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Does this mean the engine is foo barred then having been run on 10W40? As I say they were pretty sketchy and I have an invoice at home with the oil part number on it so will confirm when I get home later.
No, your engine should not be foo barred from the 10w40. After all, it is better sump full of fresh-ish 'wrong' oil, than it would be to have a nearly empty sump of 1 or 2 year old 'correct' oil.
But there are quite a few issues relating to using wrong oil. One issue is that of the fundamental design of the engine - the oil pump in the 2.0 TFSI was originally designed to pump 0w30 oils (from the LongLife 2 oil era). OK, VW have subsequently revised their oil specs around 5w30 oils. But to get an engines oil pump to work with thicker oils - it will cause lubrication issues - many issues. Sticking purely with the 10w40 viscosity - it will worsen your fuel consumption, and it will not lubricate as effectively when cold.
But the real killer conundrum with a '10w40' oil is that it is invariably a mineral oil - or a semi-synthetic at best. Now any competent technical person who works on cars will be horified at putting anything other than a fully synthetic oil in a petrol engine with a turbo!
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First service June 09: 9680 miles: oil Helix Ultra VX 5W-30
Very good oil. Fully synthetic and VW 504.00 & 507.00 approved - ie, 'LongLife 3' spec. :happy2:
Second service may 10: 16653 miles: oil Helix HX7 AV 10W-40
SH!T oil :sick: - change it ASAP. This is claimed as a 'semi-synthetic', however, it uses 'Group3' basestocks - which the Yanks claim as 'synthetic', but the European Union has deemed as being illegal to call Gp3s 'synthetic'. Gp3 basestocks are simply a hydrocracked mineral oil (sometimes called a 'synthesised hydrocarbon fluid', or SHF) - and these turn to solid 'coke' in turbo bearings. More importantly, this oil does NOT have any VW approval for petrol engines - it merely has 505.00 approval - which is a dinosoar spec diesel engine oil approval (and does not even include PD). Look on Shell.co.uk, or Google it for the full woeful spec.
Seriously - get this sh!t drained and refilled with the correct oil.
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Glad to see your car has had 10W40 - I just called 4 different dealers in the area (ish) and they all said T&D = 10W40.
Then they ALL blatantly do NOT know the fundamental basic of VW oil requirements.
First, VW have completely DELETED all requirements for viscosity grades, and this has been the case since 1999 - over 20 years ago!!!!!
Second, VW engine oil requrements are now ONLY based on VWs own oil specification standards. The ONLY standard permissible in ALL franchised workshops is VW 504.00 for petrol engines and 507.00 for diesel engines - aka 'LongLife 3' oils - even when T&D regime is used (home mechanics and independent motor trade are still free to choose from two, and there are two very specific TDIs which are exempt). This instruction was issued for implementation from December 2008.
Seriously, you need to find some better stealers, or independents. Or supply your own oils.
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You appear very passionate annoyed by vw's apparent oil cock-up. Would you care to ring a vw dealer yourself and "discuss" this issue with them as you'll be able to fight ur corner very well.
Please report back your findings as to whether you think the main dealer will just change my engine oil foc on the say so of one person's comments on an Internet forum (rightly or wrongly).
Cheers
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You appear very passionate annoyed by vw's apparent oil cock-up. Would you care to ring a vw dealer yourself and "discuss" this issue with them as you'll be able to fight ur corner very well.
Please report back your findings as to whether you think the main dealer will just change my engine oil foc on the say so of one person's comments on an Internet forum (rightly or wrongly).
Cheers
Huh - yes, I AM passionate about oil - and most who know me on this forum would tend to agree that I know my stuff when discussing oils.
Dealers - as much as I don't care for my own local stealers, the DO know about the using only LL3 oils - they only use Castrol SLX Professional Powerflow LongLife 3 in their workshop (except for those to oil burners mentioned earlier) - so why the need for me to phone my dealer asking them to do something they already do?
And rather than dissing me as 'one person on the internet' - perhaps you might like to do 3 things? Firstly, use the search function - there are loads on this forum who understand that only LL3 spec oils should be used, even when on T&D. Second, READ your own car handbook - at the rear of the folder, you'll find a thin book - '3.3, Technical Data, Golf GTI'. Now please tell me where it states anything about viscosity grades? It doesn't - it just states VW oil standards (none of which include semi-synthetic or 10w40). Third - go to your stealer and look at ETKA - it too clearly states the VW oil specifications, and also lists the viscosities of said VW oil specs (again, no 10w40). Then you will perhaps agree that everything I've stated about oils is actually 100% correct.
Finally - if you really CBA doing that - then log onto https://erWin-Volkswagen.com, create yourself a free account, and then input your VIN - and Volkswagen Germany will tell you exactly what spec oil is to be used.
Then fone up VW UK customer service, armed with all the evidence, and ask that they intervene and arrange that the correct oil is used - as per the manufacturer, in your car.
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I wasn't dissin you at all, merely pointing out that if I go back to the garage some 5 months after having the oil change done stating that one person has told me the wrong oil has been put in, then they're gonna laugh at me.
However, you have pointed me in the right direction to go armed with facts so I'll see where I get with them now.
Thanx
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I spoke to my specialist on Friday morning and mentioned my car had 10W40 in it and he was quite stumped as well. His first response was that a s you have pointed out they are meant to be run on synthetic oil. I asked what he would put in it, keeping it on time and distance and he would put 0W30 in it. I think I'm going to get an oil change this week and keep it 0W30 (providing other people agree this is the correct oil?).
Could this oil be a contributing factor to the cold start woes? Should I run anything else through the engine when changing the oil to get all the 10W40 out?
PS Every forum I have searched says synthetic based oil (0W30 / 5W30) and I'm far more likely to believe the good people on the internet.
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Anyway, starting. I have another theory. The FSI system uses two fuel circuits - a conventional low pressure circuit (just like old skool fuel injection) - which delivers a high volume but relatively low pressure (6.4 bar). And then there is the high pressure side - is a low volume (relatively) but high pressure (130 bar). The high pressure side should keep a residual pressure in the common rail which supplies the four injectors (you have to manually release the pressure when working on the high pressure side) - and I reckon that some motors may not be holding enough residual pressure overnight. And then the engine needs to be physically turning before the high pressure can be fully built up again. Have you read the 'cold start' thread in this section?
Not forgetting of course that the process of opening the drivers door will/should charge the fuel system.
Perhaps try unlocking the car, open the door then close and lock the door and repeat the process again before starting - see if this helps with the problem and may then point you in a better direction.
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I wasn't dissin you at all, merely pointing out that if I go back to the garage some 5 months after having the oil change done stating that one person has told me the wrong oil has been put in, then they're gonna laugh at me.
However, you have pointed me in the right direction to go armed with facts so I'll see where I get with them now.
Thanx
OK - no offence taken.
And another avenue to 'prove' to the stealer - there is an organisation called www.OATS.co.uk. They run the 'EARL' lubricants database, which is used by all the oil companies, and gets its info from all the car manufacturers, and generates a model-specific whole car lubricant spec guide. If you log onto any of the major oil companies web sites (say www.Castrol.com/uk), and then select something like 'find lubes for my car' - Castrol will then generate an OATS profile for your car with Castrol specific lubes. And importantly, when you select say Golf Mk5 GTI - ityou the option of PR: QG1 or QG0 (which are T&D servicing or LL servicing) - and for both, it will only list Castrol EDGE 5w30. All other oil companies, including Fuchs, Millers oils, even shyte Motaquip - all state 5w30.
HTH, and good luck. :smiley:
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@ Sean:
Is Fuchs 5w30 okay?
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I spoke to my specialist on Friday morning and mentioned my car had 10W40 in it and he was quite stumped as well. His first response was that a s you have pointed out they are meant to be run on synthetic oil. I asked what he would put in it, keeping it on time and distance and he would put 0W30 in it. I think I'm going to get an oil change this week and keep it 0W30 (providing other people agree this is the correct oil?).
0w30 was the slightly earlier LongLife 2 spec oil. These arn't really suitable for FSI direct injection engines. Also, the 0w30 oils tended to have a bit of 'drink problem' - because they were such a low viscosity, on certain cars they suffered with really high oil consumption.
Could this oil be a contributing factor to the cold start woes?
It's hard to categorically state that the wrong oil has caused your specific cold start issues. However, theoretically, it could affect it. A 10w40 oil is harder to 'pump' when cold, and therefore may marginally slow the cranking speed. And the fact that virtually all 10w40 oils are not 'clean' oils (oils made with cleaner, safer additives - in a similar vein to removing lead from petrol) - using a 10w40 might be like running 4 star leaded petrol. All those nasty additives when burned in the engine may be contaminating things like the catalysts and the lambda sensors.
Should I run anything else through the engine when changing the oil to get all the 10W40 out?
No - categorically not. Just drain the sump and change the filter after giving it a good run - and then fill it with some proper stuff.
PS Every forum I have searched says synthetic based oil (0W30 / 5W30) and I'm far more likely to believe the good people on the internet.
You really need to get your head around the official VW oil standards, rather than chasing oil viscosities or synthetics or not. If you look for the correct VW oil standard of 504.00 - then the viscosity and basestocks will be all taken care of (ALL 504.00 oils are 5w30).
HTH
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Anyway, starting. I have another theory. The FSI system uses two fuel circuits - a conventional low pressure circuit (just like old skool fuel injection) - which delivers a high volume but relatively low pressure (6.4 bar). And then there is the high pressure side - is a low volume (relatively) but high pressure (130 bar). The high pressure side should keep a residual pressure in the common rail which supplies the four injectors (you have to manually release the pressure when working on the high pressure side) - and I reckon that some motors may not be holding enough residual pressure overnight. And then the engine needs to be physically turning before the high pressure can be fully built up again. Have you read the 'cold start' thread in this section?
Not forgetting of course that the process of opening the drivers door will/should charge the fuel system.
Perhaps try unlocking the car, open the door then close and lock the door and repeat the process again before starting - see if this helps with the problem and may then point you in a better direction.
That is a very good point. Basically 'double priming' the low pressure side.
Though I personally still reckon these cold start issues are more likely down to the high pressure side not holding an adequate reserve pressure overnight.
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@ Sean:
Is Fuchs 5w30 okay?
Which Fuchs 5w30? Fuchs make 11 different 5w30 oils - and only two of them are VW 504.00 approved!
The two Fuchs ones are:
- Fuchs Titan GT1 LongLife III - this oil is more suited to TFSI petrols
- Fuchs Titan GT1 Pro C3 - the phosporous content in this oil is more suited to diesels with DPF
And whilst Fuchs are a very good German oil - I would still put Castrol and Motul at the top of the pecking order, above Fuchs.
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I checked today and the top up oil I was given, being the same 10W 40 put in at service is classed as 505.00 oil. I shall be having words tomorrow.
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I checked today and the top up oil I was given, being the same 10W 40 put in at service is classed as 505.00 oil. I shall be having words tomorrow.
I think I mentioned earlier, 505.00 is only for DIESELS - and very old low spec ones at that. There really is no way they can waffle their way out of this issue.
Good luck, and keep us updated. :happy2:
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OK - I'll get some Castrol 5W30 and get the filter changed with a new sump plug and washer. Thanks Sean, you are an extremely knowledgeable guy! :notworthy:
Can I run one more thing past you please? I mentioned below when I had my first morning of clearing frost from the car I was half expecting a really difficult start given the issue I've had. When I turned the key the starter appeared to turn for slightly longer than usual before the engine caught, but when it did catch it fired up very smoothly. This morning was another cold one (-0.5) so after scraping the frost from the car I turned the ignition on, waited then turned it over and it started very quickly and very smoothly - like I've said before it was as though the car had already been running but it hadn't been. So the really cold weather makes my car start smoothly :stupid:
Mako V12V - let me know how you get on with VW and the 10W40 saga, I may consider raising this with VW UK as well if this is the route you decide to go down. Also how is your ED30 starting in the cold weather?
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OK - I'll get some Castrol 5W30 and get the filter changed with a new sump plug and washer.
- 06D 115 562 - oil filter element kit - £9.50 +vat retail, £5.23 +vat trade
- N 908 132 02 - drain plug with integrated washer - £1.14 +vat
Thanks Sean, you are an extremely knowledgeable guy! :notworthy:
:happy2: :smiley:
Can I run one more thing past you please? I mentioned below when I had my first morning of clearing frost from the car I was half expecting a really difficult start given the issue I've had. When I turned the key the starter appeared to turn for slightly longer than usual before the engine caught, but when it did catch it fired up very smoothly. This morning was another cold one (-0.5) so after scraping the frost from the car I turned the ignition on, waited then turned it over and it started very quickly and very smoothly - like I've said before it was as though the car had already been running but it hadn't been. So the really cold weather makes my car start smoothly :stupid:
OK, so if the colder it is, the better it starts - then this is primarily a fueling issue. Basically, the engine is being overfueled during starting. The colder the engine, the more it needs 'more fuel' to start. But if it is less cold, and too much fuel is delivered, then there is potential that the spark plugs will suffer from 'cold fouling' (excess wet carbon - not able to be burned off quickly enough, and the wetness then causes short circuit in the spark plug). I think someone previously mentioned the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor (G62). These do seem to be occasionally problematic, and unfortunately, when faulty, they wont log an error in the ECU. For the sake of £20ish, it would be well worth a punt on fitting a new one. This should then ensure better more accurate low temperature fueling.
And have I mentioned spark plugs? Are the correct ones fitted, and are they in good condition?
Another thing to check is your tumble flaps. These affect the airflow into the combustion chamber, and aid low speed combustion. These are fairly common for seizing up. Though if faulty, these are more likely to affect low engine speed running too.
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Another thing to check is your tumble flaps.
....[said in a Terry Thomas voice:] "Well, helloo. How are your tumble flaps, my dear?" :evilgrin:
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OK - I'll get some Castrol 5W30 and get the filter changed with a new sump plug and washer.
- 06D 115 562 - oil filter element kit - £9.50 +vat retail, £5.23 +vat trade
- N 908 132 02 - drain plug with integrated washer - £1.14 +vat
Thanks Sean, you are an extremely knowledgeable guy! :notworthy:
:happy2: :smiley:
Can I run one more thing past you please? I mentioned below when I had my first morning of clearing frost from the car I was half expecting a really difficult start given the issue I've had. When I turned the key the starter appeared to turn for slightly longer than usual before the engine caught, but when it did catch it fired up very smoothly. This morning was another cold one (-0.5) so after scraping the frost from the car I turned the ignition on, waited then turned it over and it started very quickly and very smoothly - like I've said before it was as though the car had already been running but it hadn't been. So the really cold weather makes my car start smoothly :stupid:
OK, so if the colder it is, the better it starts - then this is primarily a fueling issue. Basically, the engine is being overfueled during starting. The colder the engine, the more it needs 'more fuel' to start. But if it is less cold, and too much fuel is delivered, then there is potential that the spark plugs will suffer from 'cold fouling' (excess wet carbon - not able to be burned off quickly enough, and the wetness then causes short circuit in the spark plug). I think someone previously mentioned the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor (G62). These do seem to be occasionally problematic, and unfortunately, when faulty, they wont log an error in the ECU. For the sake of £20ish, it would be well worth a punt on fitting a new one. This should then ensure better more accurate low temperature fueling.
And have I mentioned spark plugs? Are the correct ones fitted, and are they in good condition?
Another thing to check is your tumble flaps. These affect the airflow into the combustion chamber, and aid low speed combustion. These are fairly common for seizing up. Though if faulty, these are more likely to affect low engine speed running too.
I get the odd shudder on idle but wouldn't have said I get any problems with low engine speeds. Where are the tumble flaps and how hard are they to inspect?
Also is the temp sensor as easy to replace on the MK5 as it was on the MKIV (when cold obviously)?
I have no idea whether the spark plugs are the correct type, given the oil probably not but they've been pulled at least 3 times in the last 2 months and I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that it's not a good idea to keep removing/re-installing them on these engines.
My invoice does say check spark plus so 'hope' the tech at the stealer that did all the work – this was done pre the compression check. They are the original ones, car has never had them replaced and they are due at the next service.
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I get the odd shudder on idle but wouldn't have said I get any problems with low engine speeds. Where are the tumble flaps and how hard are they to inspect?
The tumble flaps will usually log an error code, so providing the engine ECU scan comes up clear with VCDS, then I wouldn't worry too much. If you download this link: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/golfgoodies/mk5golfengine.pdf, it gives you an overview of the engine. You might like to download all the other related engine manuals as listed in my rather hand 'free workshop manuals' thread: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1797.0.html
Also is the temp sensor as easy to replace on the MK5 as it was on the MKIV (when cold obviously)?
I'm not 100% sure - just make sure you change the temp sender on the engine, as the one on the rad won't really help your specific issue. :wink:
I have no idea whether the spark plugs are the correct type, given the oil probably not but they've been pulled at least 3 times in the last 2 months and I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that it's not a good idea to keep removing/re-installing them on these engines.
My invoice does say check spark plus so 'hope' the tech at the stealer that did all the work – this was done pre the compression check. They are the original ones, car has never had them replaced and they are due at the next service.
Repeated unscrewing of 'dry' spark plugs from alloy heads will cause 'fretting' - basically the threads in the head start to crack. A decent anti-seize paste, ideally nickel based, but copper will do - will prevent this cracking.
How many miles has yours done? The factory fitted plugs were part number 101 905 631 B - which were Bosch F6KPP332S - but these have been superceeded by 06H 905 611 - still made by Bosch, but without any Bosch consumer part numbers. Official service schedule advice for changing the plugs is 60k miles - but I personally think this is too long. IMVHO, I'd be wanting to change the plugs at 40k miles - at the absolute max. I personally change mine every 20k miles - and they are still perfectly serviceable at that distance.
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Thanks for the advice - spark plugs are from factory as far as I know. Car has 22,900 miles on the clock and has had 3 services, I'm guessing the plugs would be due to replaced at the enxt service (if I listen to VW under time/distance servicing)
Don't have a socket (in my set) to check them - is applying copper grease to the thread on the plug good enough when I do replace them?
I just had a check under my bonnet after getting home - I could hear an electrical buzz coming from the alternator area. The car hadn't been switched off all that long but when I tried to trace it it sounded as though it was coming from the alternator (or that area). It sounded like a power adapter I guess, not a 50hz hum but an electrical hum or sorts. Is this normal? I'm going to go out now and check it's still l doing it. Nope noise has now stopped.
Is this my dump divertor valve on the front of the engine on my ED30? I'm positive my car isn't as fast as it should be and would like to check the diaphragm - I can't hear the turbo at all having come from a MKIV 1.8T I could always hear a whistle from the turbo (although it was mapped).
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm2.static.flickr.com%2F1064%2F5114971322_0dc34cf596.jpg&hash=0b24a69b7b251440673ce43df3c8249de98bcf60)
Sorry loads of questions - I should be writing you a cheque! :signLOL:
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The black unit at the front is the DV (Diverter Valve). That's what you are referring to as the Dump Valve.
Remove the torx bolt holding the bracket to the mount and then you can pull the mount to one side far enough to get good access to the DV.
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Thanks for the advice - spark plugs are from factory as far as I know. Car has 22,900 miles on the clock and has had 3 services, I'm guessing the plugs would be due to replaced at the enxt service (if I listen to VW under time/distance servicing)
Unless you specifically ask for the plugs to be changed on the 4th service, I doubt they'd replace them.
Don't have a socket (in my set) to check them - is applying copper grease to the thread on the plug good enough when I do replace them?
Copper grease is OK - at push! Trouble with most copper greases is they are fairly shyte - either the copper particles are too large and then become mildly abrasive, or the bonding grease is poor quality and goes 'sticky'. There is only one make of copper grease I'd personally recommend - the orginal Copaslip, made by Molyslip.
[pdf]http://www.cromwell.co.uk/static/publication/778/pages/1268.pdf[/pdf]
I much prefer something called Never-Seez Pure Nickel Special - http://www.cromwell.co.uk/BST7050702G - which has super tiny nickel particles, and a completely non-sticky bonding grease base.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cromwell.co.uk%2Fstatic%2Fproducts%2Fg%2Fjeeps%2F705%2Fbst7050702g.eps.jpg&hash=87cbdf284e34d0710fdecf475d5e8c8ab14bf819)
I just had a check under my bonnet after getting home - I could hear an electrical buzz coming from the alternator area. The car hadn't been switched off all that long but when I tried to trace it it sounded as though it was coming from the alternator (or that area). It sounded like a power adapter I guess, not a 50hz hum but an electrical hum or sorts. Is this normal? I'm going to go out now and check it's still l doing it. Nope noise has now stopped.
You've just heard the after-run electric coolant pump (which reverse flows the coolant through the turbo). It is located low down at the front of the engine, below the oil filter, with two 3/4 inch coolant pipes. It generally runs for anywhere between 90 seconds and 3ish minutes. It should just be a very gentle whirring - if it sounds grindy or is vibrating the coolant pipes - then it is foobared. Mine went at about 28-30k miles - replaced under warranty.
Is this my dump valve on the front of the engine on my ED30? I'm positive my car isn't as fast as it should be and would like to check the diaphragm - I can't hear the turbo at all having come from a MKIV 1.8T I could always hear a whistle from the turbo (although it was mapped).
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm2.static.flickr.com%2F1064%2F5114971322_0dc34cf596.jpg&hash=0b24a69b7b251440673ce43df3c8249de98bcf60)
Yes, next to the corner of the silver bit of your engine cover. Generally, most peeps don't hear the turbo on the Mk5. The only time I've heard mine is with the engine cover removed. The Ed30 engine should pull like a train all the way to 6,500 rpm - if it doesn't, and seems to run out of puff - then the DV is a likely candidate for being foobared. Fairly cheap, and very easy on an Eddy to replace - and the latest OEM valves have been re-designed to a piston type, compared to the earlier diaphragm type.
Sorry loads of questions - I should be writing you a cheque! :signLOL:
Ssssshhhhh - don't say that - Mrs Tamer will hold you to that! :signLOL:
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The black unit at the front is the DV (Diverter Valve). That's what you are referring to as the Dump Valve.
Remove the torx bolt holding the bracket to the mount and then you can pull the mount to one side far enough to get good access to the DV.
:signLOL: I can see three torx screws in the picture, I haven't had a very close inspection but you've kind of lost me.
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The black unit at the front is the DV (Diverter Valve). That's what you are referring to as the Dump Valve.
Remove the torx bolt holding the bracket to the mount and then you can pull the mount to one side far enough to get good access to the DV.
:signLOL: I can see three torx screws in the picture, I haven't had a very close inspection but you've kind of lost me.
Those three torx screws are what hold your DV in place. First disconnect the wiring connector, then remove the three torx screws, and the DV will slide out with a bit of a wiggle.
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I checked today and the top up oil I was given, being the same 10W 40 put in at service is classed as 505.00 oil. I shall be having words tomorrow.
I think I mentioned earlier, 505.00 is only for DIESELS - and very old low spec ones at that. There really is no way they can waffle their way out of this issue.
Good luck, and keep us updated. :happy2:
Well you wont be surprised to learn that the Service Manager waffled his way out of this issue. Unfortunately he phoned me in a busy spell whilst i was at work and i didn't have a clear head to put my arguements across.
In a nut shell he said the VW 505.00 oil was a VW approved oil for my car and he had all the relevant bumf from VW to confirm this. However, he couldn't fax or email anything over to me to back up this as it was reproducing VW stuff which he couldn't do. Looks like i'll have to pay a visit.
Also, i've just registered with erWin which is VW AG supported but to get the relevant info i'd have to pay. Is this worthwhile? I could do to go armed with some official VW document proving him wrong.
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Oh yeah, forgot to mention, i'd got the dealer to price match another vw garage which knocked about £45 off their official price. Maybe this is there real excuse for putting crap old diesel oil in my Eddy?
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^^^^
The Teutonic Tamer takes on Herr Volkswagen in a mud an oil wrestling contest :popcornsoda:
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I checked today and the top up oil I was given, being the same 10W 40 put in at service is classed as 505.00 oil. I shall be having words tomorrow.
I think I mentioned earlier, 505.00 is only for DIESELS - and very old low spec ones at that. There really is no way they can waffle their way out of this issue.
Good luck, and keep us updated. :happy2:
Well you wont be surprised to learn that the Service Manager waffled his way out of this issue. Unfortunately he phoned me in a busy spell whilst i was at work and i didn't have a clear head to put my arguements across.
In a nut shell he said the VW 505.00 oil was a VW approved oil for my car and he had all the relevant bumf from VW to confirm this. However, he couldn't fax or email anything over to me to back up this as it was reproducing VW stuff which he couldn't do. Looks like i'll have to pay a visit.
Also, i've just registered with erWin which is VW AG supported but to get the relevant info i'd have to pay. Is this worthwhile? I could do to go armed with some official VW document proving him wrong.
Like I have repeatedly stated - 505.00 is a DIESEL engine standard. The stealers know this, and they are now blatantly lieing to you. You really need to follow the steps I previously listed:
- Get your book wallet out, and look in '3.3 Technical data' - page 9, engine oil specifiation. The ONLY oil specs are: 504.00, 503.00, 502.00, 501.01. 501.01 is now an obsolete specification. 502.00 and 503.00 are no longer authorised for official workshop use. There is NO mention of 505.00 (because the GTI is a petrol, not diesel). Do NOT refer to any listed oil standards in the service book - '1.1 Service schedule' - as this booklet covers a large number of VW cars, and so will have oil specs for both petrol and diesel engines
- Demand that you get the service manager to enter your VIN on to ETKA (the official VW electronic parts catalogue) - and DEMAND that you BOTH look at the engine oil page for your specific car - it will clearly state that ONLY 504.00 oils are to be used in petrol engines
- Demand that the Service manager then logs into their own ELSA-WIN, and orders up a service schedule - again, this will list ONLY 504.00 oils
Be 100% firm with them. If they refuse to conceed they are wrong - demand to speak to the 'Dealer Principal' - giving him one last chance. Otherwise, advise the DP that you will be logging a formal complaint with Volkswagen UK Customer Services. Their behaviour is just utter incompetence.
You really need to now name and shame this dealer.
And onto the erWin issue - yes, you DO have to pay for most things - but it will allow you to print the full service checklist of your next service (which states what oil is to be used - identical to what the service department should be using). However, you can download the latest official VW approved oils and their relevent oil standards. Look carefully at the related 505.01 pdf list - and you should notice that a high proportion of the oils are something like 'Turbo Diesel', 'TDI', or 'PD'.
Finally, look at this website - http://www.oilspecifications.org/volkswagen.php - it clearly confirms everything I have stated about 505.00 being a diesel engine oil standard.
I'm fairly adamant that virtually all of the UK based forums (don't bother with the US-based ones) will mirror everything I've stated, and confirm that 504.00 oils are the only ones to be used in ALL Volkswagen Group petrols.
DLTBGYD, and good luck. :smiley:
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^ Every thread I have come across shows the oil to be 5W30 which is also what I used to put in my old MKIV 1.8T. I really want to get what's un mine drained and swapped over to 5W30, I don't see why I should be covering their incompetence though.
I'd like to climb on this too - once we get somewhere I'd be happy to share the dealers I called who all agreed 10W40 was the oil to use :rolleye:
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^ Every thread I have come across shows the oil to be 5W30 which is also what I used to put in my old MKIV 1.8T. I really want to get what's un mine drained and swapped over to 5W30, I don't see why I should be covering their incompetence though.
I'd like to climb on this too - once we get somewhere I'd be happy to share the dealers I called who all agreed 10W40 was the oil to use :rolleye:
Just name and shame them now:
Every GTI owners handbook proves them wrong
ETKA proves them wrong
ELSA proves them wrong
erWin proves them wrong
OATS proves them wrong
Five differing sources . . .
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You're gonna love this!! Here we go:-
1. Phoned VW customer Services on 0800 0833 920.
2. Eventually got through to Katie.
3. Explained that i'd spoken with my dealer first (service advisor then service manager) re them putting the wrong type of oil in and that I thought I had been fobbed off.
4. She took the oil type they had put in (10W 40, VW505.00).
5. She asked me what type I thought they should have put in (5W 30, VW 504.00).
6. She took my reg (or VIN number if your records are not up-to-date with VW).
7. I informed her my manual confirmed the correct use of VW 504.00 and a knowledgeable forum member had also confirmed as much via ETKA, ELSA, erWin and OATS and that VW505.00 was for diesel engines.
8. She put me on hold for ten minutes - she spoke with Steve who is a Technician there.
THE REPLY?
The recommended oil for your car is VW 503.00 or 504.00 but 505.00 is actually the better oil as it is more technologically advanced!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At this point I pointed out that this contradicated everything else out there to which she maintained that's what the Technician had said/checked and said that VW 505.00 is suitable for my car.
At this stage I gave up as basically I was arguing with VW UK.
Sean - please feel free to follow this up with Steve the Technician at VW UK!
Cheers - Phil
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You're gonna love this!! Here we go:-
1. Phoned VW customer Services on 0800 0833 920.
2. Eventually got through to Katie.
3. Explained that i'd spoken with my dealer first (service advisor then service manager) re them putting the wrong type of oil in and that I thought I had been fobbed off.
4. She took the oil type they had put in (10W 40, VW505.00).
5. She asked me what type I thought they should have put in (5W 30, VW 504.00).
6. She took my reg (or VIN number if your records are not up-to-date with VW).
7. I informed her my manual confirmed the correct use of VW 504.00 and a knowledgeable forum member had also confirmed as much via ETKA, ELSA, erWin and OATS and that VW505.00 was for diesel engines.
8. She put me on hold for ten minutes - she spoke with Steve who is a Technician there.
THE REPLY?
The recommended oil for your car is VW 503.00 or 504.00 but 505.00 is actually the better oil as it is more technologically advanced!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At this point I pointed out that this contradicated everything else out there to which she maintained that's what the Technician had said/checked and said that VW 505.00 is suitable for my car.
At this stage I gave up as basically I was arguing with VW UK.
Sean - please feel free to follow this up with Steve the Technician at VW UK!
Cheers - Phil
You need to put all that in writing, and copy it to Volkswagen AG in Wolfsburg. EVERY official technical source from VW (ELSA, ETKA, erWin), along with that oil specification website - ALL confirm that 505.00 is ONLY for diesels.
EDIT: And their claim that 505.00 is more advanced than 504.00 is pure BS, and incompetence of the highest order - because Duckhams Q 20w50 green mineral oil from the 1970-80s was/is 505.00 approved!
And how about another angle of attack - what 'brand' of oil did they use (you may have already said, but I can't remember). Phone the technical department of the oil company, and just ask them what type of engines VW 505.00 is for. You might need to quote the specific oil which was used. Then ask them if it is suitable for a car which needs 504.00?
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Sean - i've lost the will to live with this one and haven't the time to invest in pursuing this further.
Thanks for all your help on this though.
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This is exactly what I found speaking to several, OK four dealers they were all convinced 10W40 was the best oil for the car - it doesn't matter what you say in their mind they are correct and no customer on the end of the telephone is going to say otherwsie.
Sean - i've lost the will to live with this one and haven't the time to invest in pursuing this further.
Thanks for all your help on this though.
I can't help but wonder if our cold starts have something to do with this grade of oil - hence I'm changing mine within the enxt few weeks to 5W30
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Whatever bullsh!t the stealers come out with - there is only ONE VW oil standard which includes an "FSI" test sequence, and that is 504.00. It is this FSI test which destinguishes it from the slightly earlier 503.00 LongLife spec.
But no doubt if anyone tried to explain this to the stealer, it would go right over their head too.
I personally think this is a serious issue, and needs raising with the likes of Volkswagen Driver magazine. But it isn't my place to initiate the action - I'm not having a stealer putting in the wrong oil. Naturally, if someone else wants to initiate the contact with VWD mag, I'll gladly formally chip in with my expertise and know how.
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What was the outcome on the poor starting and the wrong spec of oil being used at the service?
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Poor starting still exists but I can make it better by holding the key and 'coming off' the starter once the engine is running. A number of people have suggested I'm coming off the starter too early - the start still isn't as smooth as I would expect but I can live with it.
I need to get the oil changed to see if it makes any difference..
Are you having similar issues?
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Just listened to both of your start up videos on flikr. I would say that my car starts up very similar, to yours, on some mornings and on others it catches straight away. I have noticed that I seems to coincide with which petrol the car has been filled up with.
I use Tesco momentum 99 or Shell V-power and it seems to start up better when I filled up with the Tesco momentum 99.
After reading the thread I went out to the car (It hasn't been started for 5 days), opened the door and I could hear the petrol pump come on.
Turned the ignition on and let the lights go out, I could hear a very slight whirring noise. Started the engine with no accelerator and it started like a dream!
It has bothered me that sometimes it starts cleanly and others not, but not enough for me to take it to the dealers.
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Okay. Maybe some developments with the cold start issue?
Over the last couple of months this year long issue seemed to improve. However, in the last week or so the start up had been worse. Now in the last couple of days I've had a strong smell of petrol whilst stood outside the car. I was thinking fuel line or pump near the rear offside wheel. (don't even know where the fuel pump is TBH).
I had the car in at work today and was told the smell was much worse under bonnet so have booked in at vw bburn in the morn.
A search on here revealed faulty injectors were replaced by another owner of a smelly car. And coupled with anSGTI having injector issues possibly connected to cold start issues, I wonder if this is the same for me.
Will update tomorrow.
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My car still has a rough start-up issue, but I too have noticed a difference over the last few months:
If the temperature outside is 2 degrees or below, the car catches and starts very well - it may crank a few times before turning over but it catches very smoothly. For instance this morning it was around 1.5 degrees, I turned the key and it fired up straight away and was as smooth as you would expect.
If the temperature is above 2 degrees then I get a rough clunk as it starts - I can improve this sometimes by holding the key on the starter, but often this can also feel as though the starter is dragging the engine back slightly so doesn't always work so as a consequence doesn't start very smoothly.
I started to wonder if this was an issue with how the ECU was reading the outside temperature for cold starts (the colder it is the easier the first start is) - could the fuel pressure be a factor though with the cold. I don't know anymore but all I do know is I got myself into such a knot with worry over this I just learned to live with it now, as overall the car is such a pleasure to drive (but costing me a fortune :signLOL: )
I'm still running the car with 10W40 in it, and it's still on original plugs but I will be due it's 4 yr service at the beginning of March (replacing the plugs) even though VW now say they're not due until the car is 6yrs old!!!
Please let me know how you get on.
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^^^^
On the subject of plugs I've been advised that it's good maintenance to change them more often than VW suggest but particularly if your car is tuned. I change my plugs every 20k miles and oil change every 10k.
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All dry under the engine cover and bonnet.
The fuel filter, which is sat on the offside and forward of the rear wheel was p1ssing fuel out though so "maybe" this is the issue with the fuel smell :wink:
The repair will be done under warranty.
I'll see if this has any effect at all on the starting issue.
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Not sure if you recall but I replaced my fuel filter but it made bugger all difference to the cold starts
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I did my plugs the other day (60k major service) and they were almost certainly at the end of their life! Had a lovely gooey deposit on the ceramic outer casings, and the electrode was rather worn.
40k/4 years is generally the max I leave spark plugs for between changes
As for the shudder on start, I had this also. It turned out to be the air intake mounts being damaged, and it was shunting the casing into the front firewall where it mounts to as it started due to engine shake. Got a new air intake (about a fiver) and the noise has gone. Might be worth checking?
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Thread revival :signLOL:
Did anyone ever get to the bottom of the cold start problems?
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Just finished reading this thread, fascinating stuff, learnt a shed load! I've gota know though....did it have a happy ending!?!?!? :popcornsoda