MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: pat15312 on September 03, 2010, 12:09:38 pm
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Who knew this would be such a hard decision to make!!!
Can you please give me a bit of feedback on 6 of the anti roll bar kits on the market from the top brands.
Basically I nee you give me some sort of clue in order for me to make an informed decision isntead of jsut guessing.
I'm not going to take into account the difference in price in order to make things a bit simpler.
I want the kit that will offer the largest improvement in handling without making the car horrible to drive around town or over bad roads...
At the moment I'm leaning towards the thickest H&R due to reccomendation by Ed at APS.
Cheers,
Patrick
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I voted Eibach purely because thats what i have. :happy2:
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Unless someone has fitted each type to their car and driven around the same circuit to test each one out, you are never gonna get an accurate answer.
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Unless someone has fitted each type to their car and driven around the same circuit to test each one out, you are never gonna get an accurate answer.
.... x 2
Also, different sizes/settings front and back will suit different drivers. Some prefer a looser rear end for example.
I think it's a case of establishing which brands to avoid, if any. IIRC there have been reported problems with hollow ARB's.
Over 70k miles on my Eibach's and even though I had the opportunity to swop to VWR, they advised it would be an uneccessary added expense.
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they are all different and it depends on what your after. also just because a bar is thicker, its not necessarily stiffer, they might be a solid or hollow bar or different material etc.
a point of note for bars though.
the thicker the front bar the more understeer.
The thicker the rear bar the less understeer thus closer to oversteer.
what ever you go for id say choose an adjustable kit, because if you dont like the balance you can adjust it very easily to make itmore neutral or more aggressive.
On my vRS i had the eibach front and rears, they worked best set on front -soft, and rear -stiff. i was however considering fitting a stiffer rear bar though as i prefer the back to be that tad looser to get the nose into a corner, understeer is for gays :grin:.
i havent voted on the choices you have as id go for the whiteline 24mm adjustable front and rear bars. you can see they test their kit on cars before releasing. i get the idea alot of other companies get the std ARBs and merely make them stiffer. and the bars are matched closer together. its the rear bar which is the main issue on these cars.
however from the list i'd be goinf for the autotech 25mms, or neuspeed 25mms as long as they are adjustable
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I chose the Autotech rear sway bar after looking what was out there. I narrowed my choices down to HR (as they don't need lubrication from time to time), BSH ( Biggest hardon on the market, but have had trouble with clearance of the lower control arms) and Autotech (IMO the best hollow design out there) Autotech it became based on stiffness and lightness and i chose only to change the rear as mentioned before that is the weak point on this specific car.
:wink:
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i would go for the new Eibach hollow arbs, there light and still adjustable too!
Its worth mentioning its not just a case of smaller bar on the front, and bigger bar on the rear will give you more oversteer or vise versa, its all down to the roll characteristics of the car!
For example a front engined front wheel drive car will need more roll stiffness on the front than the rear due to the weight over the front axel....
its all about getting a balance that works for the car and you, you will find the ones that are matched front and rear will be really snatchy and not very positive to drive fast as they wont give much feel to how there putting the car into slides :smiley:
To be honest you will feel a differnce in whatever brand you go for, so its just down to your budget and what ones you can get hold of easy enough :smiley:
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I am also wondering of the, I think it is called "camber curve" of this car? Is it losing much negative camber under compression in a turn? We cannot adjust the front camber on our cars, no? Other than putting on the TT arms, etc.?
If this car is losing camber in a turn, a bigger front ARB will keep the car flatter (less rolling) giving more grip in the front because of the less camber loss. But it will feel as if it does not want to rotate. I think then you can use the bigger rear bar for the "tuning" of this rotation, no?
What do you fellows think?
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A bigger front bar will give the car more understeer, bigger rear will reduce understeer. simple as that.
id reccommend both bars. front set to soft, rear to stiff
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I cannot offer advice on your choices sorry, but I might throw a spanner in the works.
All these brands are hard to get in little old New Zealand.
I ended up with a 26mm APR rear anti roll bar. I found a vast improvement in the handling around corners.
I currently have it set to the softest setting (being adjustable). I'm not too sure I'll end up doing the front.
It feels like it does not want to understeer at all anymore, pretty much where I point my cars nose the rear just follows.
More like an evenish feel. Not just yet tail happy.
Sorry to comment a different brand to your choice. But thought I would at least let you know.
The rear does feel stiffer driving normally, the rear is a tax more bouncy too with no people in the back.
But yes still have to keep lubing the bush every couple of months.
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i fitted a neuspeed hollow rear bar to mine and made a nice difference , i have always had neuspeed bars and always will , top notch !
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A bigger front bar will give the car more understeer, bigger rear will reduce understeer. simple as that.
id reccommend both bars. front set to soft, rear to stiff
.... x 2
But as to which brand of ARB is the best, I don't think you can know without experiencing them all.
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no one will ever know that id bet. the only way to test would be to use the same car with each ARB, and have the alignment set to the same settings everytime etc etc. lets be fair, that aint going to happen. all the bars are very good. all are much of a muchness tbh
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Unless someone has fitted each type to their car and driven around the same circuit to test each one out, you are never gonna get an accurate answer.
.... x 2
Also, different sizes/settings front and back will suit different drivers. Some prefer a looser rear end for example.
I wish I had a looser rear end! :scared: :scared:
I think it's a case of establishing which brands to avoid, if any.
Agreed.
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I too have the adjustable Whiteline anti-roll bars - front soft, rear hard. I'd happily recommend them. :smiley:
And to the Kiwi who said they have difficulty getting stuff - Whiteline are made in Australia, so fairly local! :wink:
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I too have the adjustable Whiteline anti-roll bars - front soft, rear hard. I'd happily recommend them. :smiley:
And to the Kiwi who said they have difficulty getting stuff - Whiteline are made in Australia, so fairly local! :wink:
lol, yeah I know No whiteline products in NZ, no stock. Minimum 5 -6 weeks wait.
Ended up getting an APR from APR NZ in little under 1 week. Pretty impressed I must say.
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Hello all,
I'm new on this board for just a few days and I'm pleased by this forum
an the technical competence of it's members.
:happy2: :happy2:
I was looking for the best ARBs some time ago and made a posting like
this on a german forum. So let's begin:
Most of You know about the advantages:
- reduced roll
- reduced loss auf camber when cornering
- better Handling
- more clearence when cornering hard with ultralow suspension
- just a very small amount of loss of comfort
Most AR bars of PQ35 platform cars do fit the golf except 4-motion vs. fwd.
stock GTI/Touran etc.:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.golfvigti.com%2Fupload%2Favatars%2Futool_f_1277211235_14.jpg&hash=175002facd41bd3b4ee78aff97821bc67b9b2cfe)
H&R:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.golfvigti.com%2Fupload%2Favatars%2Futool_f_1277211296_14.jpg&hash=a90bc3e06b3e4c54e69e9cf625d08f58277b3d96)
APR:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.golfvigti.com%2Fupload%2Favatars%2Futool_f_1277211436_14.jpg&hash=ef9e5cf27e25aedb72544ab7e9dc0daa72f230e0)
Hotchkis:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.golfvigti.com%2Fupload%2Favatars%2Futool_f_1277211926_14.jpg&hash=c6e53eea231f1ccdc132e317b436c782c99aa6e0)
Attention: most OEM are tube types, thickness in mm. Most tuner bars are solid
(except APR/Hotachkis).
I made a table of the bars I know of, but there may be some more:
Type: diameter front (x thickness) / diameter rear (x thickness)
OEM:
A3 Ambition/S-Line: 22,5 x 3,5 / 20,7 x 2,8
Golf V GTI: 23,6 x 3,5 / 21,7 x 3,0
Golf V R32: 22,0 massiv / 21,7 x 3,0 (4-motion)
Golf VI GTI: 23,6 x 3,5 / 21,7 x 3,0 PR-0BF oder 21,7 x 3,6 PR-0BM (DCC?)
Golf VI R: 22,0 massiv / 21,7 x 3,6 (4-motion)
Scirocco R: 23,6 x 3,5 / 21,7 x 3,6
Touran: 23,0 massiv / 21,7 x 3,0
Passat R36: 23,6 massiv / 21,7 x 3,6 (4-motion)
Sharan model 2011: 24.0 solid / 20.0 solid
tuning:
H&R 'normal': 26 / 22 mm
Eibach AntiRoll: 26 / 23 mm
KW clubsport: 26 / 23 mm
H&R 'extra-dick': 28 / 24 mm (there is a 28 mm rear at AWE)
H&R 4-motion: 25 / 25 mm
Whiteline: 24 / 24 mm
Neuspeed: 25 / 25 mm (without TÜV)
APR/Hotchkis: 27 / 27 mm (tubular, without TÜV)
KW CS sould be identical to the Eibach AR kit, just yellow instead of red, so look
at the pricing or choose the colour you like.
=)
Some data about the torsional resistance:
inner hole (short arm)
outer hole (long arm)
- OEM front GTI
diam. 23,6 x 3,5 mm - tube
c = 65,6 N/mm
- H&R front
diam. 28 mm - solid
c = 172 N/mm Mitte (~ 156 N/mm outer bzw. 188 N/mm inner)
- OEM rear GTI
diam. 21,7 x 3 mm - tube
c = 59,5 N/mm
- H&R rear
diam. 24 mm - solid
c = 122,7 N/mm Mitte (~ 109 N/mm outer bzw. 139 N/mm inner)
As You see torsional resistance ist twice as hard on the rear and 2 1/2 to3 x
on the front.
In conjunction with stiffer springs roll is half than OEM, with TT arms maybe even less.
:wink:
Whiteline has a helpful table to compare the diameters on their website !!
Some my be interested in the stiffer OEM bars (e.g. Sharan), but be aware that they're
only slightly harder than stock GTI bars. If You wanna feel a real difference buy the
more expensive ones with 25 to 28 mm.
The Sharan rear bar maybe an option when you just want to change the rear ARB because
it's relatively cheap and changing rear is easy.
I'd recommend the 28/24 H&R and the Whiteline 24/24. H&R Advantages: TÜV, teflon liner
bushes, forged ends, quick turn in response.
The Whiteline offer a more neutral balance, triple adjustment, better traction and since 2011
they come with TÜV certificate as well.
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Hotchkiss=APR, same bar, APR just repaints it :happy2:
Autotech is also hollow, and IMO worth considering :xmaspresent:
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All the eibach ARBs are now hollow as well
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Anyone know what stiffness the VWR bars are ?
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The VWR suspension comes from KW, so the ARBs as well?
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H&R bars can be bought separately. You don't have to buy kits.
I am using 26mm front and 24mm back. My setup is hard/hard.
LE: As I know each sway H&R sway bar has TUV (not only the kits). Am I wrong?
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inner hole (short arm)
outer hole (long arm)
- OEM front GTI
diam. 23,6 x 3,5 mm - tube
c = 65,6 N/mm
- H&R front
diam. 28 mm - solid
c = 172 N/mm Mitte (~ 156 N/mm outer bzw. 188 N/mm inner)
- OEM rear GTI
diam. 21,7 x 3 mm - tube
c = 59,5 N/mm
- H&R rear
diam. 24 mm - solid
c = 122,7 N/mm Mitte (~ 109 N/mm outer bzw. 139 N/mm inner)
Where did you get these? Could you please tell me the figures for 26/22?
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If you are comparing solid, with solid then from my engineering memory then take (26/28)^4 x 172 should work (I Haven't got a scientific calculator at hand) the stiffness is the the 4th power. This is bar only and not real world as the bars will distort and twist though the arms, links etc dealing with that stiffness.
Simpler is to forget the actual value and look at increases stiffness
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I'm using BSH 27mm on the rear and H&R 26mm in front, both of them set on soft. Thicker rear bar will help you rotate the back on very tight corners but on tracks like Nring I think thicker front (like most manufacturers kits are) is safer at high speed corners !
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H&R bars ....
As I know each sway H&R sway bar has TUV (not only the kits). Am I wrong?
Yes an no. The ''Teilegutachten'' (TÜV) allows the H&R front ARB to be mounted
in conjuction with the stock one at rear. But H&R at rear with stock ARB at front
unfortunately not.
I tested the rear H&R by my own (fitting is much easier, so I did it first).
Cornering was really funny but little bit dangerous. I wouldn't track on the Ring
with this very ''lively'' setup.
If you fit a stiffer bar at the rear only then take care your rear axle is supplied
with some more 'toe in' and never with 'toe out' !!!
Where did you get these? Could you please tell me the figures for 26/22?
I mailed to H&R. Calculating the 26 mm will be no bigger problem if you have the
data for another diameter.
26 mm is around 70 % of the stiffness of an 28 mm bar (both solid).
I'm using BSH 27mm on the rear and H&R 26mm in front, both of them set on soft. Thicker rear bar will help you rotate the back on very tight corners but on tracks like Nring I think thicker front (like most manufacturers kits are) is safer at high speed corners !
:happy2: I fully agree.
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I have got H&R 28mm Front - 24mm Rear, both set on Hard at the Ring Track and soft on road.
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I have got H&R 28mm Front - 24mm Rear, both set on Hard at the Ring Track and soft on road.
Oh, that's too much toil for me, Laurent. :laugh:
Winter: soft; summer: hard. Almost every weekend there's a slalom.
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I have got H&R 28mm Front - 24mm Rear, both set on Hard at the Ring Track and soft on road.
Oh, that's too much toil for me, Laurent. :laugh:
Winter: soft; summer: hard. Almost every weekend there's a slalom.
....And even more too much toil for me. Set and leave them 365 days a year :smiley:
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I made it too short to be right. :ashamed:
I meant that hard suits track use when soft suits road use but as I'm lazy too, I end up in winter on ''soft'' as I don't go to the Ring and in summer on ''hard'' as I do.
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Laurent, this wasn't any reproach. :drinking:
I don't want to screw bigger things every 2nd weekend, but I
use to adjust the dampers before and after every slalom race.
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Never mind, I didn't thought you did. :drinking:
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I find Eibach a little too "safe" for me and didn't really get rid of the understeer in my previous car. It definitely helped out the grip levels in general but wouldn't go for something that isn't going to make the car feel more neutral like the Neuspeed kit does.
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Well I have been running APR Rear anti-roll Bar since September last year.
till Jan 2011 when it ended in an accident, Pulled all the parts off but only got my car back 3 weeks ago. No it was no Major damage (new fender and bumper and water bottle etc)
I have been driving the car without the ARB since I received my car back. But enjoy way more than stock.
Have to send the car to the panel beaters again. so have not re-installed will do so once I get it back again.
So we here in NZ only get the Whiteline ARB's. But being everything else was APR on my car. I decided to put most eggs in one basket. Glad I did.
I find the car a tad bouncier in the back without passengers. But far nicer with.
I like how neutral the car has become, sharper turn-ins and flatter around corners.
One downfall (actually a bonus really), is in the wet without really trying I can easily pop the rear out and start drifting. even simply pulling away around a corner in the wet.
Still running standard height on my car, mainly as I still have not decided 100% on springs or adjustable suspension. Plus a slight chance I may actually sell me car. So Easier to sell standard. Especially a TR GTI.
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Bumping an old thread as I'm after some help with ARB sizes, stiffness etc. Looking to get a 3DR ED30/Pirelli GTI DSG in the next few months and want to do the handling and braking modifications before winding the engine power up.
I want to improve the handling and sharpen it up but don't want the rear end deciding it wants to overtake the front in the twisties or going around a roundabout.
What combination of ARB sizes and settings would be best in this case?
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Anyone?
Perhaps I should start with a soft/soft combo of some sort and see how that works.
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H&R 28/24 kit imo gives the best overall balance, comfort and handling.
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this:
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?s=715d71d0bbd7fb4315b6d338d8f68342&t=45368
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I voted for the 26/22 as the best all-rounder (that's what I am currently riding), as sometimes you want a more supple setup on some bad bumpy roads. However, I am thinking more and more to take the step and buy the H&R 28/24 and go to a more track-oriented setup.
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Remember H&R also had thicker than 24 on the rear (28 i think) but it's not sold on a kit, you must buy it separately !
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Remember H&R also had thicker than 24 on the rear (28 i think) but it's not sold on a kit, you must buy it separately !
Not seen that one myself. Both the European and USA sites don't list it. Do you have a link?
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I've also heard of it: http://www.golfmk5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131095
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They don't make that any more.
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H&R made it for AWE exclusively. I've spoken to H&R two years ago about this 28 mm rear sway
bar and they agreed to make another batch if there's demand. You can also choose the color of
your liking. They already make yellow bars for Asian markets.
However, another great combination is 26 mm front + 24 mm rear. Available separately at some
distributors on special order.
:wink:
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H&R made it for AWE exclusively. I've spoken to H&R two years ago about this 28 mm rear sway
bar and they agreed to make another batch if there's demand. You can also choose the color of
your liking. They already make yellow bars for Asian markets.
However, another great combination is 26 mm front + 24 mm rear. Available separately at some
distributors on special order.
:wink:
I can supply 26mm F and 24mm rear.
If I could get 10 people interested then I can get the 28mm rear bar, but I don't see there being the demand.
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I voted for the 26/22 as the best all-rounder (that's what I am currently riding), as sometimes you want a more supple setup on some bad bumpy roads. However, I am thinking more and more to take the step and buy the H&R 28/24 and go to a more track-oriented setup.
I had 26mm/22mm H&R setup on my old A3 in combination with KW V2s. Even though it was a diesel and a SB, I never drove it mental, but whenever I would push it, it was faultless, I was really impressed with the handling & the ride quality. I have another set of these left over which I am trying to sell atm as I fancy going 28mm/24mm as per people's recommendations. But if nobody buys them I think I'm going to chuck them on with I fully polybush it, I don't drive like a **** so I'm sure they'll suffice.
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Acidutzul's car is also a diesel (140bhp 8v)
My current setup is 26/24 set to hard/hard. I've always had this setup and I wouldn't want to change it. I use my car as daily drive (and in Romania the roads are pretty bad) and trackday car. Can't really imagine driving my car with 28/28 sways on track. It sometimes oversteers with the current setup (not lift off oversteer) so I doubt 28/28 will work for my car.
BUT the GTI is another story. The engine is heavier and it has a different weight distribution. My car should be about as heavy as a GTI on the front axle (the GTI engine is heavier but has a 10 degrees incline towards the back while TSI engine have 20 degrees incline towards the front). So, my point is: if oversteers are a walk in the park for you (even at 100+mph) then go for 28/28. If not, use a kit: 28/24 or 26/22 (I mentioned H&R because they are of very high quality and maintenance free).
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I'm using 28 H&R on front (very high quality painting on it and maintanance free, makes no noise) and 27mm BSH on rear (rusted already due to poor painting and also needs frequent lubricating to avoid noise). They are both on hard and the car seem quite neutral !