MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: 182_blue on February 04, 2009, 08:09:18 pm
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split from Johhnys sale post re the k04 for sale
As title, do they share the same internals or not ?
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I presume the internals of the KO3 powered GTIs will be able to handle the 310-360bhp?
TT says there the same :happy2:
Does that mean he's right though? :scared: :scared:
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No idea, just what he said though
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anyone fancy asking T_T for evidence?? or shall i sign the persons death cert now :signLOL:
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I had read that the engines are very different in terms of internals? ED30/Cupra R/S3 sharing a similar platform.
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I think we need someone with an up to date etka !!
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thats what I understand to be true,
either way there was a regular Gti K04'd at Awesome last year I drove, makin 330ish and it had been like that a while and was standing up to it :happy2:
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thats what I understand to be true,
either way there was a regular Gti K04'd at Awesome last year I drove, makin 330ish and it had been like that a while and was standing up to it :happy2:
?which one do you understand lol
actually i will start a thread and add these posts as i dont want to wreck his sale
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that the Ed30/S3 has different internals, some differences between the S3 and Ed30 too
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From the info I've been able to glean from various forums. The standard GTI and ED30 gti have some differences, although TT says not. The jury I guess is still out.
The only inklings of differences I can put my finger on is that there have been one or two standard GTI's in America with KO4 conversions that have either bent or broken a rod (Golf MKV forum). This is no definitive answer, as the standard GTI runs a slightly higher compression ratio which may have something to do with it as well, but just an observation!
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anyone fancy asking T_T for evidence?? or shall i sign the persons death cert now :signLOL:
I'll go get the spade and start digging. How tall are ya Steve?
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I read an article in one of the VW magazines, about the differences between the engines (defo internal difference). Ill go dig it out.
Im pretty confident that Jonny mentioned it on his thread, as I suggested he could have used a GTI as a base for his modifications.
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I cant remember TT ever saying the GTI and the ED 30 had the same engine most of the duals have been whether the ED 30 is the same as the S3 lump. :driver:
If we dont know there is not much point in speculating.
everybody hide under the blanket and i will go and ask him to post on the subject. :laugh: :laugh: :confused:
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oh lord i can see this being another heated debate, and obviously very interesting.
yet another useless reply from jay....im sorry guys!
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Debate is what these forums are all about. :happy2:
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This has been thrashed out to bits :-
Edition 30 is same as S3 engine bar exhaust and intercooler.
The Edition 30 has lower compression pistons, forged rods, strengthned crank, K04, stronger block, higher flow injectors, different head, bigger map sensor, relocated dv...........
The ED30 and GTI are VASTLY DIFFERENT.
:happy2:
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I cant remember TT ever saying the GTI and the ED 30 had the same engine most of the duals have been whether the ED 30 is the same as the S3 lump. :driver:
If we dont know there is not much point in speculating.
everybody hide under the blanket and i will go and ask him to post on the subject. :laugh: :laugh: :confused:
Very true, I'm tired, it's been a long day LOL
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This has been thrashed out to bits :-
Edition 30 is same as S3 engine bar exhaust and intercooler.
The Edition 30 has lower compression pistons, forged rods, strengthned crank, K04, stronger block, higher flow injectors, different head, bigger map sensor, relocated dv...........
The ED30 and GTI are VASTLY DIFFERENT.
:happy2:
well thats that :laugh:
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cool, you got internet on your boat? :laugh:
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Great! As I thought. So my original question stands: Would the KO3 GTI be able to handle 310-360bhp.
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gareth, TT has always maintained
Different technical specifications to pistons, cylinder heads and camshafts.
between S3 and Ed30/Cupra et al.......
Remapping doesnt always appear to give the same results either!
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Great! As I thought. So my original question stands: Would the KO3 GTI be able to handle 310-360bhp.
general opinion from the tuners is the regular GTi internals are good for 330-340ish
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gareth, TT has always maintained
Different technical specifications to pistons, cylinder heads and camshafts.
between S3 and Ed30/Cupra et al.......
Remapping doesnt always appear to give the same results either!
From the problems I'm experiencing with my remap, and numerous discussions, conversations etc etc - it seems that the differences in output are down to the exhaust downpipe varience between the motors. I know the S3 and ED30 motors have different downpipes, not sure about the Cupra - I'll check part numbers on etka.
Regards,
Gareth :happy2:
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Great! As I thought. So my original question stands: Would the KO3 GTI be able to handle 310-360bhp.
general opinion from the tuners is the regular GTi internals are good for 330-340ish
APR, VF etc etc all tune ther stage 3 type kits for the 200hp 2.0T FSI cars to around the 375BHP mark as this is seen to be a safe power level for the standard internals. By safe, they feel its super safe! Hence why they would tune the cars to that level.. They could get a lot more pretty easily, and the engine would take it. But not for long..
The reason as far as I can tell for the bent rods with K04 turbo's in the US have both been bad tuning, I have a PM from one of the guys saying that both failures were down to massive amounts of advanced ignition, huge heat, pinking etc etc..
Both of those cars were on 'custom' engine maps..
Honestly, K04 on a K03 engine is safe, and Im not just saying that because I have one for sale..
Jonny
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Great! As I thought. So my original question stands: Would the KO3 GTI be able to handle 310-360bhp.
general opinion from the tuners is the regular GTi internals are good for 330-340ish
APR, VF etc etc all tune ther stage 3 type kits for the 200hp 2.0T FSI cars to around the 375BHP mark as this is seen to be a safe power level for the standard internals. By safe, they feel its super safe! Hence why they would tune the cars to that level.. They could get a lot more pretty easily, and the engine would take it. But not for long..
The reason as far as I can tell for the bent rods with K04 turbo's in the US have both been bad tuning, I have a PM from one of the guys saying that both failures were down to massive amounts of advanced ignition, huge heat, pinking etc etc..
Both of those cars were on 'custom' engine maps..
Honestly, K04 on a K03 engine is safe, and Im not just saying that because I have one for sale..
Jonny
That's good to know Jonny....and reassuring too. :happy2:
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Great! As I thought. So my original question stands: Would the KO3 GTI be able to handle 310-360bhp.
general opinion from the tuners is the regular GTi internals are good for 330-340ish
APR, VF etc etc all tune ther stage 3 type kits for the 200hp 2.0T FSI cars to around the 375BHP mark as this is seen to be a safe power level for the standard internals. By safe, they feel its super safe! Hence why they would tune the cars to that level.. They could get a lot more pretty easily, and the engine would take it. But not for long..
The reason as far as I can tell for the bent rods with K04 turbo's in the US have both been bad tuning, I have a PM from one of the guys saying that both failures were down to massive amounts of advanced ignition, huge heat, pinking etc etc..
Both of those cars were on 'custom' engine maps..
Honestly, K04 on a K03 engine is safe, and Im not just saying that because I have one for sale..
Jonny
That's good to know Jonny....and reassuring too. :happy2:
Also, forgot to mention. (I have in the for sale ad)
Revo have there demo TT running an Edition 30 K04 turbo set up, thats a demo car, being ran to the max on a daily basis, not only is it extremely fast, but also has ran with no problems what so ever.
Revo offer the stage 3 software for K04 conversions on 200hp 2.0T FSI engines.. Its a simple yet massively effective mod for the 200hp cars!
Jonny
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anyone fancy asking T_T for evidence?? or shall i sign the persons death cert now :signLOL:
I'll go get the spade and start digging. How tall are ya Steve?
6ft 3 trench required!
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I presume the internals of the KO3 powered GTIs will be able to handle the 310-360bhp?
TT says there the same :happy2:
Does that mean he's right though? :scared: :scared:
....He's recently totally blown his credibility with his rantings as far as I'm concerned!
But we are all entitled to our opinions :smiley:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.muditajournal.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Farguing-on-internet.png&hash=a5f3780eb94188ce900b14868981cff14aeac0ce)
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glad that's all cleared up, I was genuinely interested as to whether the KO3 GTI's internals would cope, as I know the differences between the 2 engines is more than a KO4 and 30bhp.
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Does the ED30 have the same fuel pump as a normal GTI?
I experience falling fuel pressure when I put the boost up on my Revo, as the OEM fuel pump can't cope.
But I don't recall hearing that ED30's experience the same issues????
Thanks in advance,
Chris.
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Does the ED30 have the same fuel pump as a normal GTI?
I experience falling fuel pressure when I put the boost up on my Revo, as the OEM fuel pump can't cope.
But I don't recall hearing that ED30's experience the same issues????
Thanks in advance,
Chris.
Just posted this in the other thread too but basically the fuel pumps on the K03 and K04 engines are the same. The reason the K04 cars cope is becuase the requested fuel at very low revs (with the K03 turbo when tuned) is very high, and more than the fuel pump can cope with.
The K04 does not have this characteristic, we all know that the fuel pump can deliver much more fuel at higher revs, due to the fact that it is driven off the cam, more speed, more fuel.. So because the K04 produces more grunt a touch higher in the rev range, you will be able to make far more power and torque without needing the fuel pump.
Hopefully that makes sense..
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Lol, just replied in the other thread. Thanks again, makes perfect sense now :happy2:
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TT's views are also in this thread, if anyone has'nt seen it :ashamed: :embarrassed:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=103606.50
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TT's views are also in this thread, if anyone has'nt seen it :ashamed: :embarrassed:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=103606.50
oh that thread!! :scared: :smiley:
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TT's views are also in this thread, if anyone has'nt seen it :ashamed: :embarrassed:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=103606.50
oh that thread!! :scared: :smiley:
It's Ok Steve your safe here :wink: :laugh: :laugh:
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Im sure Robin can find it as i cannot remember were i posted it now :rolleye: but i did ages ago go through ETKA and list all the differences with part numbers just before the edition30 came out.
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^^^^
Thanks Geoff! Yes, I remember it but finding it is quite a different matter!! :laugh:
Unfortunately there is so much conflicting info about this subject but it's not unreasonable to assume that ETKA may be right. Is it possible that ETKA info changed after the Ed30 came out? Some who have actually stripped both engines seem to disagree with some of the stated differences. Don't ask me who - It's a minefield!
Bottom line is, does it really matter? - I suppose it does if you are wanting to squeeze out the max power etc.
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Does the ED30 have the same fuel pump as a normal GTI?
I experience falling fuel pressure when I put the boost up on my Revo, as the OEM fuel pump can't cope.
But I don't recall hearing that ED30's experience the same issues????
Thanks in advance,
Chris.
I had those issues when going up to Stage 2 Revo with my Ed30 - could have ran with the OEM pump, but would have had to run with retarded settings, so I went with the APR pump.
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Honestly, K04 on a K03 engine is safe
Jonny
Revo have there demo TT running an Edition 30 K04 turbo set up, thats a demo car, being ran to the max on a daily basis, not only is it extremely fast, but also has ran with no problems what so ever.
Revo offer the stage 3 software for K04 conversions on 200hp 2.0T FSI engines.. Its a simple yet massively effective mod for the 200hp cars!
Jonny
....Also, VWR/RacingLine's 300R demo GTI is running K04 on a K03 engine and delivers in the region of 330 bhp. It has various mods though and a custom Superchips remap AFAIK.
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As said before, its safe, I was running 380-385 on the 197hp rods. They aint the strongest, but they are pretty good. I did bend a rod, but thats a different matter lol. Its torque and bad tuning that will break them :smiley:
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Bottom line is, does it really matter?
You have to ask yourself, why would a company go to the added expense and upset its bottom line if it did not matter? You also have to think maybe it only matters in countries with a 40-degree ambient temp etc. They don't just make it for UK weather lol. Theres just so many questions to ask. lol.
You also have to ask who evaluated the differences and came to the conclusion they were the same. What scientific methods did they use? How in-depth did they go? etc etc etc
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Bottom line is, does it really matter?
You have to ask yourself, why would a company go to the added expense and upset its bottom line if it did not matter? You also have to think maybe it only matters in countries with a 40-degree ambient temp etc. They don't just make it for UK weather lol. Theres just so many questions to ask. lol.
You also have to ask who evaluated the differences and came to the conclusion they were the same. What scientific methods did they use? How in-depth did they go? etc etc etc
....You're absolutely right, Geoff.
My comment was somewhat flippant ('tis my mood this morning) and was meant to mean whether it mattered to those in the UK who weren't seeking to heavily increase their GTI/Ed30's performance.
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I guessed that, its my writing style it can sound abit agressive, its not ment too mate sorry. :drinking:
Anyone got the Edition 30 and/or pirelli's engine code handy?
I hate all this linking between different forums i thought that link above without reading it properly was just linking to another post on here. I screwed my cookies up again. :sad:
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^^^^
No, your posted questions are entirely valid and furthermore serve to possibly educate others as to why there can be differences - Very much the subject of this thread. :drinking:
I'm used to your style of writing, Geoff, and we've all had to read far more 'aggressive' posts from others on a number of forums. Fortunately this forum works very hard to keep the peace.
:grouphug:
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I guessed that, its my writing style it can sound abit agressive, its not ment too mate sorry. :drinking:
Anyone got the Edition 30 and/or pirelli's engine code handy?
I hate all this linking between different forums i thought that link above without reading it properly was just linking to another post on here. I screwed my cookies up again. :sad:
BYD
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Thank you. For the engine code. :drinking:
The way i did this was go into each verson of ETKA and write down on a bit of paper the numbers for head complete, piston complete, camshaft intake, camshaft exhaust for each engine code for the edition 30 given above and the cupra and S3.
I then compared the numbers on my list, this is my findings. Im not saying they are correct what i am saying is simply what my version of ETKA is saying.
S3 BHZ
Cylinder head complete 06F103063P or 06F103063PX
Piston complete 06D107066K
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102D
Camshaft intake 06F109101G
Seat Cupra BWJ
Cylinder head complete 06F103063P or 06F103063PX
Piston complete 06D107066K
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102D
Camshaft intake 06F109101G
Edition 30 BYD
Cylinder head complete 06F103063PX
Piston complete 06D107066K
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102D
Camshaft intake 06F109101G
Normal GTi BWA
Cylinder head complete 06F103063NX
Piston complete 06D107066C
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102B
Camshaft intake 06F109101B
Normal GTi AXX
Cylinder head complete 06F103063NX
Piston complete 06D107066D
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102B
Camshaft intake 06F109101B
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how about other parts ?, plus can you get normal GTI ?
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It takes ages to do :laugh: I did go through all sorts before and posted it on another forum years ago i remember it taking me many hours. ETKA is such a pain in the a$$ to use.
yes i can get normal GTI which one AXX or BWA?
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It takes ages to do :laugh: I did go through all sorts before and posted it on another forum years ago i remember it taking me many hours.
yes i can get normal GTI which one AXX or BWA?
sorry dont know what the GTi code is, just want to see if thats different as what you posted above directly contradicts some rumours :happy2:
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Again did this without checking what the others above were so
BWA
Cylinder head complete 06F103063NX
Piston complete 06D107066C
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102B
Camshaft intake 06F109101B
AXX
Cylinder head complete 06F103063NX
Piston complete 06D107066D
Camshaft exhaust 06F109102B
Camshaft intake 06F109101B
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interesting, i added them to the other post
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^^^^
Hats off to you for your work, Geoff.
It looks like there are more similarities than some people claim.
I assume the last letter can signify a revision : -
06D107066C
06D107066D
^ So that D is a later revision of the same part?
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interesting, i added them to the other post
You can tell, there is no way i would spell GTI with a small i. lol :grin: :wink:
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Robin, Sort of.
Just had a quick spy again so i may have got this wrong. :ashamed:
1 set of Con rods
BHZ 06F198401
BYD 06F198401
BWJ 06F198401
BWA 06D198401C
AXX 06D198401B
Crankshaft
BHZ 06A105021AR
BYD 06A105021AR
BWJ 06A105021AR
BWA 06A105021S
AXX 06A105021S
As i said im just quoting from my version of ETKA i have at home im not saying its right or wrong. It maybe wrong and the latest update has corrected mistakes i don't know at this time.
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Looks like you've got good taste in cars Snoopy - same collection as mine :happy2:
The information you have supplied is correct and its exactly what VWR and JKM have told me - the S3, Cupra and Ed30 parts are identical - pistons, camshaft etc... Unless of course they don't know how to interpret ETKA data - because the part numbers are under different engine codes - but that is far fetched.... As far as they are concerned, if the ETKA code is identical, then the parts are the SAME! So there TT :angry015:
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^^ Yeah you can't argue with part numbers can you!
But T_T has ETKA, so surely must have noticed the similarity in the part numbers also? I'd like to hear his reasons for why he is so convinced that the two are so different. There must be logic in his argument somewhere, otherwise he wouldn't be so adamant about it.
But part numbers don't lie....
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Any one seen this website from JD Engineering? they where in this months Golf+ mag. http://www.jdengineering.nl/ (http://www.jdengineering.nl/) you might just have to click on the mk5/audi a3 at the right hand site of the home page.
more or less past 310bhp your going to need k04 then past 370bhp it goes to a ballbearing turbo and so on and so on.
Sorry about the translation but this is the 376bhp package
Complete turboset incl.ballbearing turbo, special spruitstuk incl. to fail piping, filter, larger air mass meter etc. incl. spec. Bougies, adapted benzinedruk, larger injectoren, larger petrol pump forged pistons with lower compressie, h profile drijfstangen special lower, koppaking etc. Powercontroller, several scores and versnellingsafhankelijk complete exhaust system & Chiptuning tailored, on role bank
Darren
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"Complete turboset incl.Twinscroll ballbearing turbo, speciaal spruitstuk in voorbereiding/testfase >500pk 600Nm"
I like the sound of that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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There golf GTI is running DSG with nearly 500bhp and over 500nm of torque :laugh: :scared: it limites boost in 1st to 0.8bar then 2nd to 1.2bar and 3rd to 1.7 4th and up to 2.0
There golf gti
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xs4all.nl%2F%7Ejdengine%2Fafb_web%2Fnieuws%2Ffoto3.jpg&hash=4b85e08da67e446b7fac118293bb4b83bf7588d4)
Darren
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There golf GTI is running DSG with nearly 500bhp and over 500nm of torque :laugh: :scared: it limites boost in 1st to 0.8bar then 2nd to 1.2bar and 3rd to 1.7 4th and up to 2.0
There golf gti
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xs4all.nl%2F%7Ejdengine%2Fafb_web%2Fnieuws%2Ffoto3.jpg&hash=4b85e08da67e446b7fac118293bb4b83bf7588d4)
Darren
Is that a normal DSG gearbox though? If so, I'd be interested to see how many miles the car has done with that power :surprised:
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A quote from SEAT from the launch of there leon cupra.
"The new 240 PS 2.0-litre T FSI engine has been considerably uprated compared with the Leon FR’s 200 PS version, on which it is based. Modifications include a larger turbocharger, reinforced pistons and engine block, strengthened connecting rods, a new ultra heat-resistant alloy for the cylinder head, plus larger injectors"
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If you go on to that website and click on media there is a load of youtube vids which go back to 2007 with 376bhp so a good 2 years so far but I think its had quite abit done to the dsg box i.e different internals and ceramic clutch plate etc etc.
Darren
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There golf GTI is running DSG with nearly 500bhp and over 500nm of torque :laugh: :scared: it limites boost in 1st to 0.8bar then 2nd to 1.2bar and 3rd to 1.7 4th and up to 2.0
There golf gti
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xs4all.nl%2F%7Ejdengine%2Fafb_web%2Fnieuws%2Ffoto3.jpg&hash=4b85e08da67e446b7fac118293bb4b83bf7588d4)
Darren
Perfect choice of wheel and colour combo.
Should come like that from the factory :signLOL:
Just to add though. When Superchips first got a S3 and a ED30 in for writing their maps, they said that the two engines where slightly different because they could run more timing advance on one of the engines. They put it down to different compression ratio due to the cylinder head. I think!
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There golf GTI is running DSG with nearly 500bhp and over 500nm of torque :laugh: :scared: it limites boost in 1st to 0.8bar then 2nd to 1.2bar and 3rd to 1.7 4th and up to 2.0
There golf gti
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xs4all.nl%2F%7Ejdengine%2Fafb_web%2Fnieuws%2Ffoto3.jpg&hash=4b85e08da67e446b7fac118293bb4b83bf7588d4)
Darren
Perfect choice of wheel and colour combo.
Should come like that from the factory :signLOL:
Just to add though. When Superchips first got a S3 and a ED30 in for writing their maps, they said that the two engines where slightly different because they could run more timing advance on one of the engines. They put it down to different compression ratio due to the cylinder head. I think!
Yeah, you can run more ignition advance because the pistons have a lower CR in the ED30/S3/Cupra engine than they do in the 200hp 2.0T FSI engine..
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Just to add though. When Superchips first got a S3 and a ED30 in for writing their maps, they said that the two engines where slightly different because they could run more timing advance on one of the engines. They put it down to different compression ratio due to the cylinder head. I think!
Yeah, you can run more ignition advance because the pistons have a lower CR in the ED30/S3/Cupra engine than they do in the 200hp 2.0T FSI engine..
Sorry should have my myself more clear. Superchips claimed there was differences between the S3 and the ED30 engine because they where able to run more timing advance on one of the engines. Can't think which one thought. Nothing to do with the K03 2.0T FSI in the GTI. The difference was between the K04 engines. I think they stated it in a old copy of VW driver mag when the ED30 had just come out.