MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Members Rides => Topic started by: poko on September 23, 2010, 08:25:43 pm
-
As the title says, I am going to start a small thread on my APR stage 4 / motorsport build.
I am located in Israel and my car is a 2009 Seat Leon cupra.
Here is the car:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2FDSCF1533.jpg&hash=81daa158a57a58c7845c34b26a0eaef33b0f6084)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fwheels5.jpg&hash=135cd1592269670d66f690c1669fadd714e132ca)
.
The car was purchased new in Dec 2009 and when it had 300 miles on the clock was tuned to APR stage 1 and 1000 miles later to Stage 2+.
Although that supplied plenty of power, I had a burning need to get more.
I have read every thread on every forum regarding BT build and talked to plenty of suppliers and BT owners in order to get to a decision.
I use this car as a DD as well as track it, so my main consideration was power delivery over just pure numbers.
to make a long story short , I have decided to go with the Apr stage 3 route , but after many talks with the amazing guys at APR and their great distributer as well as a visit in APR HQ in Alabama I have changed my mind and we are now going on an all out stage 4 build.
My engine was taken out of the car and shipped to APR where it is now being completed and in the next few days will be shipped back to me.
My car is starting the prep work next week (many many items) and during October APR engineers and head Tech are flying over to Israel to get the engine installed.
In this thread I will follow the engine build, car prep and final result and will discuss for the first time exactly what a stage 4 is made of.
Hope it will make an interesting read, more updates soon.
Side note: Israeli readers please do not Link or Re-post this to any forums in Israel or your facebook pages.
-
i was wondering how your built progressed :happy2:
I hope to visit APR for their BBQ next year, would like to get a stage4 back home :evilgrin:
i'll be watching this :popcornsoda:
-
AWESOME! Look forward to seeing the progress :laugh:
-
Subscribed :smiley:
-
Subscribed :popcornsoda:
-
Ok, before I start into the stage 4 build, just a short update of what's already on the car
.
Obviously I had the entire stg 2+ hardware, but the only thing that is going to stay is the APR HPFP
.
As for suspension, the car currently has a KW clubsport kit which is going to stay of-course.
At the current setup it is too stiff for our roads and in order to get the Damping/Rebound right new springs are currently on their way from KW in Germany.
As for anti roll Bars, I have both a set of APR as well as KW. Both of which are very different in strength and approach (KW is thicker up front compared to rear). I am not certain which I will use in the end, but I am leaning towards the APR set. I will make a final decision when the car is all set up
.
Some Pics:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fentire_setup.jpg&hash=1b202139ebb97109c0ccaafc26f248ebe4370944)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Ffront_kw1.jpg&hash=657a46901e5be629c95cc10b553bb1c202f856c3)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Frear_kw2.jpg&hash=99b55acb60be73326c7cc2a95b04591385c8950d)
-
You will need some hefty brakes aswell when all this is setup mate :driver:
-
This looks promising, not that I've got the balls to ship my engine to America and back but fair play to you..
keep the updates comming.. :happy2:
-
Woosh your certainly going for it mate, Good Luck fella :happy2:
-
now thats customer service
-
You will need some hefty brakes aswell when all this is setup mate :driver:
everything is just waiting to be installed, including brakes and a ton of other things.
-
Subscribed, looking forward to seeing this build thread unfold. When are you expecting the majority of work to be completed by?
-
As far as all questions, I will post as things happen, there are tons of parts involved and I will post all as they go on the car.
As for time table, you should see this build end Late OCT.
So let's start with the engine components.
Basically, the stage 4 kit is a hybrid of the Stage 3 BT kit and a completely built engine.
it is not a "KIT" and it is done on a case to case basis and it is not identical between builds.
The basis for the engine mods are APR motorsport engines and their experience with different changes at the track, modified to accommodate the larger turbo in this kit.
AFAIK I am only the third client that APR is building the stage 4 for and I have also requested some changes from previous builds.
So let's go over the main component, I'm doing this from my knowledge and might miss some points, I am sure APR will be glad to clarify if I did.
• Basic Stage 3 Kit -
the base for this entire build is the standard stage 3 kit . in terms of turbo and surrounding accessories there is no change at all , the difference lies in the built engine and custom software
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2F20ts3_265hp_full_kit.jpg&hash=bd306d907ac9640709ae44605d7ee74cb31944e9)
• Ported and blueprinted head -
both the head and the block are being X-rayed and scanned for any defects.
the head then is blueprinted and go through a 5 way porting process according to CAD files that are based on the motorsport engines.
I don't have exact flow numbers and not sure if APR are willing to share but there is a massive increase in flow through both intake and exhaust ports.
pics will be available later on.
• Ferrera Valve Train -
This is new and has not been done to in previous builds and is being done according to my request , just for the extra strength .
this is a complete kit and should hold much higher revs than the stock valves. Although our engines are limited by other factors such as the HPFP.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2FFerrera1jpg.jpg&hash=d8f954d8d9b5330681f2b6a278550714bf8fb639)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fferrera2.jpg&hash=5dddd08cff5da7ce8ff5cdbb4dfd56c6c9f23f7e)
• Schrick Camshafts -
Those camshafts were discussed a lot in the forums but rarely used since there is no software on the market apart from APR stage 4 that makes use of the higher lift and duration.
those are a pain to get hold of since they were of limited production and didn't sell well and so not massively produced.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fcams1.jpg&hash=f883dd168ef2863538371ab39f2dabb781fdddde)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fcams3.jpg&hash=898a07897b78a54774e079fd019886bfd3c24d39)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fcams2.jpg&hash=45d863a18be5f5356579f3a4e13df1715a00a0d6)
• Dynamically balanced Crank -
The crank is being dynamically balanced (while rolling at high RPM) with the entire moving mass of the engine.
This also includes the clutch Flywheel which is also being modded to fit the rest of the engine's moving mass.
• EGR Delete -
The EGR is one of the largest points of flow interruption and failure in highly tuned FSI's and therefore it is being completely shaven off of the car and the software is being adapted to run without the EGR.
• Rods and Pistons -
the block is being bored slightly to 83mm and a set of JE pistons with IE rods is being installed.
Compression ratio is dropped only slightly (compared to my stock 9.8:1) to 9.5:1
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2FRods1.jpg&hash=12e4449b3fee480c1c41e6810ac2c8d7a5968a08)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Frods2.jpg&hash=0199d89af3aa2121c300b92b04cf68dc4f5a5c7f)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fpiston-2.jpg&hash=487c39047dced13f72ff617492e424d61c709c2d)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fpiston.jpg&hash=e4224d32c93a94df8aaee16e6f65d3ec4ff0d4ec)
Those are the main things happening in the engine build. There are of-course tons of other misc items around those main parts.
current status is that the engine is already built and I am waiting for some pics to post from Arin@APR (btw : thanks for the amazing pics so far) , which will probably happen once H2O is finished.
-
As i have said a few times before. You are definitely mad. :laugh:
I am sure this is going to have lots of power, but surly this car is going to be a bitch to drive.
-
This looks completely bonkers. :rolleye:
Good effort. :happy2:
-
As i have said a few times before. You are definitely mad. :laugh:
I am sure this is going to have lots of power, but surly this car is going to be a bitch to drive.
not really sure on how much of a bitch it will be.
tons of handling mods and extra wide and sticky rubber are being done.
also don't forget that the tune is being done locally so i can ask them to ease down on the torque in the lower gears.
however i am quite certain WOT will not be an option anywhere below 4th gear.
-
Is this car ever likely to get near an independent dyno, or is it forever going to be another APR propaganda car?
-
subtle Mike :signLOL:
-
Well, you know how it goes.... I've been seeing this game for the last 10 years+.
-
Is this car ever likely to get near an independent dyno, or is it forever going to be another APR propaganda car?
Thats a good question.
Personally i care about how the car goes not numbers.
The tune will be done here in israel and dynod here as well and in order to avoid such questions i am going to invite giac and revo dealers to the final dyno.
Again i couldn't care less if it makes 450 or 500 hp but as long as it drives the way i want it to , but numbers do play a role in fdrums and i plan on keeping tthr objective
-
Is this car ever likely to get near an independent dyno, or is it forever going to be another APR propaganda car?
Thats a good question.
Personally i care about how the car goes not numbers.
The tune will be done here in israel and dynod here as well and in order to avoid such questions i am going to invite giac and revo dealers to the final dyno.
Again i couldn't care less if it makes 450 or 500 hp but as long as it drives the way i want it to , but numbers do play a role in fdrums and i plan on keeping tthr objective
thats actually a very good idea. better to have someone be overstrict with a dyno then someone be very lenient to massage figures
-
Is this car ever likely to get near an independent dyno, or is it forever going to be another APR propaganda car?
Thats a good question.
Personally i care about how the car goes not numbers.
The tune will be done here in israel and dynod here as well and in order to avoid such questions i am going to invite giac and revo dealers to the final dyno.
Again i couldn't care less if it makes 450 or 500 hp but as long as it drives the way i want it to , but numbers do play a role in fdrums and i plan on keeping tthr objective
Good. It's all about you being happy with what you've got for your money. A few benchmark cars from others to measure against will shut a fair few people up I'd imagine too.
-
banchmark cars are going to be tuff, what am i going to banchmark against ?
btw : i have done stock and stage 1 pulls on this same dyno , so i have reference as for my own car.
but again , when i started tuning i also mainly cared about numbers, but now i really don't care about dyno numbers.
i have driven cars that did amazing dyno pulls but were horrible in half throttle and daily driving.
making a dyno queen is not my goal.
when APR team will fly over to tune the car , i will rather loose 20-30hp and get better overall driving experience.
dynos show how the car behave at WOT , however on the road or course that's not how you drive them.
-
liking it mate my next mods are a stonger bottom end :)
-
Ah, I didn't quite mean benchmark as in big power cars - just something that is a fixed power that makes that same power on the dyno you use on the day.
Given there's going to be people there to verify, it simply means you avoid the accusations of falsifying figures that inevitably comes with dyno days. Forums are full of fickle people who never believe anything no matter how much proof, but then there's equal amounts of bull to give people reason to be wary.... APR have been very guilty of this in the past I'm sad to say.
I agree though, figures are crap and pointless with the exception of seeing if you've got what you'e paid for.
-
I have to say i must agree , but that doesn't reflect on the techical team there and the people i am working with.
you also have to understand that they have to fill all the forums with marketing crap , because most other suppliers are doing just the same , and if you are just plain honest , that doesn't fly in forums.
look at how many BT kits there are out there with big promises but zero complete and succesfull projects and no software to support them.
yet you see people buying into them because of the crap the suppliers are feeding them.
EDIT : just wanted to add that after close relations , you wouldn't also believe how many of this is not really their fault, there are so many things behind the scenes and sometimes they are put in a sh*t position by their dealers where they either have to call them liers or back them up.
-
Well done...I'm sure a thoroughly thought out piece of engineering/development by APR.
They (APR) held in very high regard with VAG Msport in Germany!
Look at their Koni challenge race cars and their R&D...a proper company.
I had Stage 3+ on my MKIV and that was very very useable on road and track.
On my Edition 30 when on Stage 1 I attended VW Racing last year and without telling them which map was on the car I was pleased to be told it was the best mapped Edition 30 they had tried due to it's smoothg driveability....I went to have my KW Clubsports set up.
It's not alll about figures it's all about below the curve too!
-
It's not alll about figures it's all about below the curve too!
i totally agree !
-
Time for an update
The engine is complete and on its way to Israel
Here are some Pics from the engine build:
Block
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fblock.jpg&hash=ca7c96578078df47d5cdee5db0522cffca32208b)
Crank
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fcrank.jpg&hash=0065f5662160ec4ad0a2b2558bd7ae329902e0ff)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fcrank-detail.jpg&hash=9ea642e5f49a13c9baffc5e680e5e6af65d59307)
Head Top View
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fhead-top.jpg&hash=ebb5e646b0b334e60484bff66aa0136885b74aea)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fhead-detail.jpg&hash=e98f1ec1279d06a7dd4ce3e5fa93a3e78243eff4)
Head Bottom View
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fhead-bottom.jpg&hash=03e2478b3235e844da7c608ec728265659f31d0e)
Exhaust Ports
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fhead-exhaust.jpg&hash=b30352fadf9ce825918e774d7c7f8f3c0508225e)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fexhaust-port.jpg&hash=d711d786b16d52551227b5c32a2eaf02d19ea312)
Intake Ports
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fhead-intake.jpg&hash=569dfdf146628af03f7072db4d58e2165ccce4a0)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fintake-port.jpg&hash=781ee7840c01b362775fdee8b47d0194ff194d33)
Overall , just your standard TFSI :)
Following batch of updates will come during next week when the car is taken out of storage and prep work is beginning along with lots of interesting parts to be installed.
(and I do apologize in advance that the pics will be nothing like what Arin@APR takes)
-
There not bad pics. :happy2: Looks like they have been put in a light box to take them, so some thought has gone into it. :happy2: It cant be easy to make a crank look sexy. :rolleye:
-
Subsribed and looking forward to the next installment :popcornsoda:
-
+1. A fantastic bit of work going on.
-
Some Updates.
The engine has arrived to Israel and we are waiting for the APR team to come on over and install it.
In the meantime the car was towed back today from storage to be prepped.
Apart from Being extremely dirty (we will fix that soon) the tow truck also managed to break a side mirror as well as scratch the car.
i am less worried about the scratches since once the body kit is on (will come after the car is tuned) i will re-paint it , but now i have to source quickly another mirror.
we started today with the easy jobs of installing the intercooler and the brakes.
Intercooler
[(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Ffront_aprcooler.jpg&hash=446f92557c84549ab9876ca22d998bd3b6b34529)
Engine Bay
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fengine_bay.jpg&hash=cf208a4ea7742ae4a63ddf3177f91d056a1f6fb8)
brakes post will be up a little later today.
-
Sorry to hear about that bud, I hope you kicked up a big fuss!! :fighting:
-
APR send over their own techs, this must be costing a few quid. Fair Play Fella :happy2:
-
Sorry to hear about that bud, I hope you kicked up a big fuss!! :fighting:
ohhhh... yeah.
-
APR send over their own techs, this must be costing a few quid. Fair Play Fella :happy2:
Naaa...they are shipping the techs cargo :)
-
Now on with the brakes.
First , Since most of you don't know the CUPRA , its important to mention that OEM it comes with the S3 fronts (345mm) and GTI rear's (286mm).
My goal from the beginning was to get the best braking possible with the right front rear balance.
I started reading every post known to man about brake setups on the Mk5 and other platforms , but the real eye opener for me was a 30 minutes phone conversation with the racing teams manager for Seat Sport.
He was also generous enough to put his main engineer on the line and discuss with me the various options available.
The fronts :
So after the call with them , i decided to go for the brand that they are using which is AP racing.
here i had a real dilemma between weight and stopping power.
most of the guys i see here in the forums are spending $$$'s to save a LB in wheel weight but don't comprehend how heavy their brake setup is.
with AP racing i had two options.
one is to go with the 5200 series which comprises of 330mm discs with 4 pot calipers and is extremely light at around 14 LBS for the entire setup
the other is to go with the 7400 series which is a 6 pot setup with 362mm discs , but weighs much more at around 30 LBS.
in the end my decision was to go with the better stopping power , also because this is the exact setup used on the Seat Supercopa race cars.
so here it is :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2FAp_Racing_Floor.jpg&hash=25715346d68c317f1d4af5144f25acf86f8a84f8)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2FAp_Oncar.jpg&hash=75c77c3e73f2e6c4f567a21ebea529f9a6dc7e0b)
Now for the rears
The common upgrade for the mk5 chasis is to go to the S3's 310mm vented discs and calipers
however, in the discussion i had with Seat Sport they were strongly against it on a FWD.
they prefer a much more front bias setup which will help to load the wheels prior to corner entery.
as a matter of fact they are even "downgrading" the brakes on the race cars to the 253mm single piston setup from the lower powered Golfs.
therefore i have decided to stay with my 286mm setup and on a whim i changed the discs to Autotech ones.
i am not sure this will do me any good since they are as heavy as stock ones and the grooving/holes are done in CNC and not as part of the casting process.
but for now they will do.
some pics :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fautotech_floor.jpg&hash=dca02054489900fd534425a66b52ce1d78725cd8)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2FAutotech.jpg&hash=d344b2fb4428368f359b112d59e290692a493fc0)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2Fautotechwwheel.jpg&hash=69f4ac39bf1c8c63aadfe2af2553cfe7c6160a5e)
As for brake pads i am currently running Mintex Extreme all around , but will try to play later on also with the options from Pagid (i want to see if i can keep the car in the temp range needed for Pagid blue).
as for wheels, the Lenso D1R which i was running do not clear the front brakes and my main intended wheels are much too wide (were meant for the body kit i will install only later).
therefore i had to find quickly some set of wheels with decent offset and the only thing i could find were nice looking AMG Reps. they are 18X8.5 ET45.
they were painted in Lambo Reventon color and mounted. those are cheap chinese wheels and are temps until i can find something better.
As for tires, i started out with my Toyo R1R at 225x40x18 but will go after the initial tune to my R888 at 255x35x18 all around.
-
nice , interesting thoughts on the front bias :happy2:
-
Totally agree on the brakes!
Build looks like it is gathering pace, I'm looking forward to seeing this progress.
-
main stage of the build should be over by this month's end.
later on its just Supercopa carbon body panels and some wider tires .... and some cosmetics ... maybe also ...
-
main stage of the build should be over by this month's end.
later on its just Supercopa carbon body panels and some wider tires .... and some cosmetics ... maybe also ...
Big cudos for contacting the right people :congrats:
Love your build, i will read it closely when/if i go Eurojet BT :laugh:
-
mega effort here, i like it :happy2: keep the updates coming :popcornsoda: :popcornsoda: :popcornsoda:
-
Can't believe I missed this thread! Definitely looking forward to more updates :D
-
short update will load pics and stuff later next week
had a very long and busy week with apr engineers here in israel and i am dead tired
we have finished race fuel celebration
513 wheel horse power
over 65 kgm of torque
over 220 whp at 3500 rpm
revo giac dealers did not come to dyno to proof it so it was done in the presence of motec and haltech distributers
motec distributer did not believe the nnumber so he set the dyno himself and did the pull with him in the car. Pulled 512
-
short update will load pics and stuff later next week
had a very long and busy week with apr engineers here in israel and i am dead tired
we have finished race fuel celebration
513 wheel horse power
over 65 kgm of torque
over 220 whp at 3500 rpm
revo giac dealers did not come to dyno to proof it so it was done in the presence of motec and haltech distributers
motec distributer did not believe the nnumber so he set the dyno himself and did the pull with him in the car. Pulled 512
so this must be yours then :happy2:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fy115%2Fjonsmout%2F72728_443890850355_75900685355_5746608_978131_n.jpg&hash=4a943e2655bb4deea8c0af726ccc4512927ee281)
-
i see only half pic on my phone
but its either me or an s3 stage 3 they also calibrated
if it says 500+ its mine :)
-
i see only half pic on my phone
but its either me or an s3 stage 3 they also calibrated
if it says 500+ its mine :)
excellent results there Poko :congrats:
-
WOW! :surprised: :surprised: :surprised: :surprised: :surprised: :surprised: :surprised: :surprised:
-
Fook me if my maths is right that's 470lb/ft of torque :surprised: :driver: :congrats:
-
:congrats: thats crackers but awsome
-
just wanted to sum things up a little and say some thank yous. , although later this week i will sort all pics and data and load them.
first of all about the final results.
the car is currently on with 2 different files (i driven it around 80-100 miles on both today).
the first is the race fuel file which takes the 2871R as far as it can go and left many people shocked since no one belived that this tiny turbo can make this numbers. as was shared, it makes 513WHP and it is absolutly mental to drive.
the turbo is even more avilable than on stage 3 cars and massive power starts just after 3000rpm and goes all the way to the redline.
the other file is the 98ron file which i have asked to make very tame and safe in relation. we don't use any addetives such as methanol and timing are not advanced to the max to allow for east adaption to weather and condition changes. also the turbo never goes above 80% duty cycle so a long life for the engine and turbo are expected with this file. this file puts out 402whp
overall , i just drove the car around 100 miles, and i need some time to get used to it. it is absolutly mental , you just press the pedal at 3000 rpm and the car next to you suddenly is half a mile back.
i would also like to add some thank you's for the really amazing guys involved in this project.
first the APR guys (random order of names) :
Grant@APR -
An amazing mechanic who has built me an engine who can stand anything i can throw at it and than some
Joel@APR -
The guy who is not a tuner but a Wizard who made power from the 2871R which left a lot of people with open mouths and won me a lot of bets. now people will know not to believe flow maps
Stephen@APR -
The head of APR who has supported this project all along and make this trip to israel come true. a truly unique and amazing guy.
Keith@APR -
the guy who started this project rolling within APR and without him it would have never gotten so far.
And now for the Israeli guys :
Pit Stop -
APR's israeli distributer, i think the world of them and there is a reason why. you all would have wished to have a nearby dealer like those guys.
TIG Motorsport -
By far the most professional shop in israel and the only ones i will ever trust to deal with my car, they were a major part of this build .
sorry for the long thank you's which probably are not interesting to read, but all the guys mentioned just put a week of 20 work hours a day , and they really deserve the credit.
-
very interesting stuff this.
Looking at Garrett's site, none of the GT2871R's are rated to over 475bhp. Fact you have 513WHP (which suggests its in the realms of 560+ @ Flywheel) is quite amazing.
-
wow that is some excelllent figures :notworthy:
-
very interesting stuff this.
Looking at Garrett's site, none of the GT2871R's are rated to over 475bhp. Fact you have 513WHP (which suggests its in the realms of 560+ @ Flywheel) is quite amazing.
timing advance is the key.
at 513whp turbo is at 100% load.
we had one run of 520whp but it needed so much more advance over 513 it wasn't worth it.
-
fantastic stuff dude . i bet its crazy to drive . think i might have to build a bottom end for mine and go crazy power . is that still on the me9 ?
-
fantastic stuff dude . i bet its crazy to drive . think i might have to build a bottom end for mine and go crazy power . is that still on the me9 ?
yep , it is on an ME9 and it is unbelivable to drive.
as for the engine build , you need to build the head as well , a lot of power gains to be had with cams and adjusted software.
-
That's some crazy figures, fantastic, I bet you're really pleased to say the least!!
Having driven a friend's laggy, but proven 500BHP Golf 1.8T 20v (bored to a 2.0), I can only imagine with a much better chassis it'll be superb.
Have you got any geek data, like MAF readings etc to see how much something like that differs from the usual 2.0T FSI logs?? I bet it's sucking in small animals at the rate that ingests air!!!!
-
since you have built the bottom end and lowered the compression i guess this extra power has come from the ignition advance, ported head and new cams then?
i just find it slightly strange that the turbo manufactures have nearly under rated their own turbo by 100Hp
-
since you have built the bottom end and lowered the compression i guess this extra power has come from the ignition advance, ported head and new cams then?
i just find it slightly strange that the turbo manufactures have nearly under rated their own turbo by 100Hp
the main reasons for that insane number on C16 are the camshafts , which are magic with the right tune as well as massive timing advance allowed by the C16 fuel.
as an APR engineer described it , since it was the first time they worked with it, the fuel is "magic in a can".
-
Here are the results AT THE WHEELS:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goapr.com%2Fnews%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F11%2Fapr_20tfsi_trans_stage_4_pump_vs_race_ariel.png&hash=6fdb434457927b2b0cfdc8ae48a64c36958e431d)
-
Here are the results AT THE WHEELS:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goapr.com%2Fnews%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F11%2Fapr_20tfsi_trans_stage_4_pump_vs_race_ariel.png&hash=6fdb434457927b2b0cfdc8ae48a64c36958e431d)
[/quote ]
:happy2: :congrats:
-
Holy Crap!
Race fuel + mapping gives another 107BHP???
-
Holy Crap!
Race fuel + mapping gives another 107BHP???
that's at the wheels too Mike. be a whole lot more at flywheel.
i still can't quite get my head round the fact that turbo will do those figures tho. not liking that sudden "peak" for peak power :grin:
-
Hhhmmm not being an expert in any way shape or form but it does seem unbelievable.
Like I said no expert so bloody amazing power.
I can imagine its a handful!
-
I thought they might have rev'd it higher given the uprated internals should be good for at least 7500+ with those mods so strange to see it tail-off at just over 6k
Impressive numbers though
-
I thought they might have rev'd it higher given the uprated internals should be good for at least 7500+ with those mods so strange to see it tail-off at just over 6k
Impressive numbers though
thats cos the turbo is prolly maxxed out at that point.
A GT30 on the otherhand would have happily carried on revving to over 7k rpm.
-
Any chance this car will go near a 1/4 mile strip? :jumping:
With power like that it should be down in the low 12's/high 11's and get a terminal of 125+mph
-
I thought they might have rev'd it higher given the uprated internals should be good for at least 7500+ with those mods so strange to see it tail-off at just over 6k
Impressive numbers though
I was not reved higher for two reasons,
1. The turbo was running out of breath and as such the numbers would just keep dropping.
2. The allowable injector on times decrease in time the higher you go in RPM's. that being said, since fueling is a limitation at these power levels, pushing it higher will just mean you have less time to inject fuel. Since you don't have much head room, you'll run out of fuel.
-
I thought they might have rev'd it higher given the uprated internals should be good for at least 7500+ with those mods so strange to see it tail-off at just over 6k
Impressive numbers though
well , its a 2871R , it has its limits.
i can tune for boost higher up but than i will loose low end power.
-
Any chance this car will go near a 1/4 mile strip? :jumping:
With power like that it should be down in the low 12's/high 11's and get a terminal of 125+mph
well , the only chance of getting it to a drag strip is if i ship the car down to UK :wink: we have no drag strips here.
however , a video is planned in around 2 weeks in a landing strip.
so you will see the car in action against a stage 2+ K03 , a stage 2+ K04 , a strong stage 3 with methanol injection and some other cars like 370z and maybe an APR tuned 996 turbo.
that should give a good estimation of what this car is capable of.
i am also waiting to install my supercopa body kit which will allow me to run better wheels and tires.
also with the current wheels , i am loosing around 10psi of air pressure every time i launch the car in lower gears due to the fact that the wheel spins inside the tire :)
-
also with the current wheels , i am loosing around 10psi of air pressure every time i launch the car in lower gears due to the fact that the wheel spins inside the tire :) :surprised:
That is some power coming through the front wheels to make it do that
-
My Grandad used to work for Rolls Royce/Bentley in the 80's.
Whether is bullsh*t or not he reckons that the Mulsanne Turbo had to be restricted because the tyres would spin off the wheel!
Mental.
Along the same lines they were a bit ballooney on the Mulsanne!