MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: stiggy on September 29, 2010, 09:12:21 pm
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Hey all,
I have an edition 30 gti which has now been remapped (Revo stage 1, 302bhp, 327lbft) along with various suspension mods carried out by volkswagen racing and a full blueflame exhaust. I have always felt the brakes on the car to be inadequate (to put it kindly), especially now that it has been remapped, and since the brakes are due for new pads/possibly disks, thought I'd look into upgrading the brakes as a whole.
I intend to do track days in the future (long term - once all necessary mods are done) but use the car mostly for road with the occasional spirited drive. I have looked into 2 possibilities so far:
- S3/R32/Cupra setup - cost effective but heavy setup and any good for track?
- VWR big brake setup - costly but more powerful and bespoke to mk5 platform. Not sure about wear rate and costs for replacemet discs.
Really not sure which setup to go for, so can people tell me which setup (if any) they have gone for and how they have found them?
Any advice, as always, would be much appreciated - thanks in advance :happy2:
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The cupra, s3, and r32 ones are pretty good, yea they are quite heavy but i was quite impressed with them more so than i though i was going to be, not sure how they are on the track though but im sure some pads and fluid should sort you out as they have pretty hefty discs so should cope with the heat pretty well, aslo the discs are cheap to replace.
Ive got the APs and they are brill, no downsides to normal driving what so ever, not grabby and awesome power, expensive to replace discs though !
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Porsche 4 pots FTW, almost as cheap as the S3/R32's but lighter and as good if not better braking performance :happy2:
Cost wise not much more than a good set of R32's.
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is dave still smashing these out?? if not where would you source the caliper carriers from?
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Vwr brakes all day long no point having a big brake that looks small and girly :pomppomp:
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I would recommend the same as SteveP he has has the AP and gone for the NSB BBK aka. DaveB special, IMO the best cost effectve solution out there.
The S3/R32/Cupra front is okay for the road and a lap or 2 at the ring but it will fade on you doing normal trackdays, or the disc will warp under heavy use during trackdays.
So off to talk to Dave B :innocent:
:happy2:
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firstly I disagree about the R32 setup fading and discs warping under my experience at Oulton park.
(it was wet but I drove round continously almost all day with 3 short breaks only)
for me at the time (Dec 2009) these were the best choice for me, HOWEVER roll forward to 2010 and I believe DaveB's porsche kit on std discs is the way to go now.
It removes the downsides of R32 setup (the weight increase) with very similar performance.
Im assured brake fade isnt an issue either.
If I was to be buying again , i would go DaveBBK :happy2:
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what about r32 discs with porsche calipers.
shark90 runs merc 350mm discs with prsche 4 pots and they are awesome. think he selling them as well
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Whatever big brakes you put on the front, don't forget your rears. I know that most of the braking on the GTI is on the front but balancing them with better rear brakes makes a very noticeable difference.
I have AP Racing BBK on front and S3 rears on my Mk5 GTI. They may not be the latest version but I can't fault my AP's. If I was buying afresh I'd buy VWR's BBK like Mat's if only to keep my car's care under the same roof.
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just had my mot done and the tester looked at the brakes and said to me i bet they work :laugh: so i said jump in and i will show how well they work :grin: 20mph emergency stop :laugh: his head almost came off :signLOL: with the words god they work :signLOL:
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what about r32 discs with porsche calipers.
shark90 runs merc 350mm discs with prsche 4 pots and they are awesome. think he selling them as well
I asked Dave about this, I think the disc thickness of the R32/S3 disc is too wide for the Porsche caliper he is using in his kits
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Im pretty sure the Not So Big Brake Kit has the Porsche calipers and 323mm discs.
I think that is the setup that Muckipup is running as he recently got some J-Hooked 323mm Discs from DaveB iirc.
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sure it uses std GTI/ED30 312mm discs which are thinner than the 345mm used on the S3/R32
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Yup your right i just had a search and look at Dave's thread.
My bad :sad1:
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Yup your right i just had a search and look at Dave's thread.
My bad :sad1:
so did I before I posted just to make sure :laugh:
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so did I before I posted just to make sure :laugh:
Thats cheating :grin:
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so did I before I posted just to make sure :laugh:
Thats cheating :grin:
Didn't have to tell you :laugh:
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so did I before I posted just to make sure :laugh:
Thats cheating :grin:
Didn't have to tell you :laugh:
....Gosh, that bitch gaz has got all the answers! :wink:
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The best brakes in the business are Porsche Brakes, so it is definitely Dave's kit all the way. I have a set on my GTI 275Hp 315lbft (K03) and only use the car on the raod and they are awesome, done 10k m on them now and wouldn't change them for anything. Can't see why you would want bigger unless you were running serious HP and racing or wanted the pose factor - look how big my brakes are ;-)
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Hmm.......these Porsche brakes are growing on me - had a brief read of the relevant post. Am i right in saying they consist of the R32 discs with 4 pot Porsche calipers? How much would such a setup cost? The other thing is, it seems I would have to source second hand parts myself and have them reconditioned, then fitted - just seems like a lot of time and hassle to be honest! Still, they are a very cost effective option. Anyone had some track use with this setup? Also, may seem like a stupid question but how would they compare performance wise with a big brake kit such as the VWR ones (both on track and road)?
Rear brakes have also been a concern of mine, but I have been told differing opinions on the matter. I was informed by Matt from VWR that the rears don't need touching with the VWR kit, but have been told by others that rears need to be sorted to balance the braking - it seems to depend on the chosen brake package, is that right? Was thinking of at least changing the pads on the rear though to something like ferrodos.
Really need to decide what to do as the brake pads indicator has been on for a month :scared: Not really one for posing, but if there is a definite performance or safety gain I don't mind paying a little extra.
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^^^^
It's true that the rears don't need touching with a good front brake kit, but myself and others know from direct experience that braking feels much more solid and evenly planted when you swop the stock rears to the S3's.
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^^^
Understood - thanks :happy2: I will look into that - seems like that may make it's way on to the "to do" list - which just seems to get bigger and bigger whenever I come on here :fighting:
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what about r32 discs with porsche calipers.
shark90 runs merc 350mm discs with prsche 4 pots and they are awesome. think he selling them as well
I asked Dave about this, I think the disc thickness of the R32/S3 disc is too wide for the Porsche caliper he is using in his kits
the boxter calipers are no good, but there areother porsche calipers that can be used. they are 100% porsche, ive seen and driven them, im pretty sure dave supplied them. alternative you have the R8 calipers, or the 4 pots that tfsi_mike ha just bought of dave.
here they are, from a porsche 996 turbo for sale here
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbriskoda.net%2Fforums%2Fuploads%2F4%2F0%2F5%2F8%2F7%2F29625.attach&hash=18712257c4b63cb5b2bfb11c0386d5af5e3ee037)
http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/165465-feeler-350mm-porsche-996-turbo-big-brake-kit-for-mkii-octavia/page__p__2020689__hl__porsche__fromsearch__1&#entry2020689 (http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/165465-feeler-350mm-porsche-996-turbo-big-brake-kit-for-mkii-octavia/page__p__2020689__hl__porsche__fromsearch__1&#entry2020689)
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Chaps
Were talking two different kits here. The NQS BBK runs on Porsche Boxster / Cayman fronts which indeed take a 25mm disc. Calipers from £250 discs from 30 odd quid
Ben at Shark Performance had the 996 Turbo Front Calipers on Mercedes R500 discs which are 350x32, I can also get these on an S3 with a variation on the bracketry. QD also had these on his Eddy and liked them.
Unless you go for a skinny caliper such as a DB9 caliper the R32 disc isn't really tall enough to offer much wheel clearance
Im still not convinced about the VWR setup, I'd need to know that they had fixed the spigot problem and were now supplying proper bolts instead of the chinese ebay tat they were supplying as sticking plasters. Im from an aerospace background as is Gaz is and its not a good idea to use crap bolts when they are the only thing taking the full weight of the car.
If they've fixed it then fairdo's but are they three times better than the NQSBBK setup?
The NQSBBK was there simply to do an imbetween job on a budget - I think its good value and comes back to the "clubman" setup i.e.affordable and matches the drivers ability over ultimate cost.
Given the VWR budget I'd have Gobbleplease's setup all day long. That 330x28 AP Pro5000+ setup is currently being used on the scirroco cup cars - Discs/Bells/Pads/Carriers were under 10kg per corner with Pagid Blues at about 90quid instead of £200 that VWR charge for race pads. 330x28 and S3 rears would seem a really good balance.
I've researched and supplied carbon kits and steel kits up to 400mm on request from some people (Not VAG), biggest isn't always best although it can be made to work well.
Not bothering with the rears would be foolhardy imvho, it may be that VWR advocate a loose rear setup for the road or they cant be bothered supplying rear kits as the normal S3 upgrade doesnt have enough margin in it (fair enough - they're not a charity).
Lets set a challenge lets see if anybody can find a production sports vehicle with 355mm 6 pot fronts and solid rear discs at 286mm - good luck.
SteveP is considering a pad upgrade and has gone for grooved discs on the rear as he was having issues on std discs and pads with the NQSBBK never mind a 355mm 6 pot setup. Some grooved discs and some DS2500's on the rear should give a really good setup for road/track
TC has 360mm fronts and had standard 286 rears and spent most of the ring trip looking at the direction of travel out his side window
As in life and as you'd expect its all about balance
Tabs & Wilko & JohnC over on the Uk-mkivs forum have 330x32 disc s on some skinny 51mm race pads on the Bora of Win and can do 20 laps flat out at Oulton come in for a driver change and check over and then go out and do another 20 no drama, that setup cost them around £800.
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Dave, any opinion on K-sport set ups?
They were reasonably well regarded on Subarus.
J
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They get a bad press but they're from the same factory as the XYZ stuff bolted to the aforementioned Bora, as long as the piston size surface area TOTALS about 48-50 sq cms then the caliper will give a good pedal, some well thought out piston sizes will give good progression after you've done that its down to what the quality of the pad and discs are like.
Some of the K Sport stuff doesnt come with dust seals which isn't optimal but with some prevenative maintenance shouldnt be a problem.
I personally wouldn't want them on my daily but probably wouldn't hesitate putting them on a lightweight track slag and when they're knacked chuck em and replace the whole lot when they're done - seal kits can be expensive as can replacement rotors.
The more conventional suppliers such as AP Brembo and Alcon are reassuringly expensive but the disc/consumable replacement costs whilst not cheap are not stupid expensive. Seal kit for a 10 pot tarox setup = £450 for 20 rubber rings!
You can get the 362mm x 32mm replacement rotor CP4542 for about £300 from AP - not bad?
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Ok as I have no direct knowledge of how the brakes feel with bigger rears on it's my next mod I think as I have been running the vwr kit for months now with stock rears.
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Stiggy
I've just had these brakes shipped to me from Daveb and I'm not putting them on the car due to a change in circumstances. I've got two sets of discs and one set of pads to go with these so if you're interested give me bell. I'm not looking to make anything on these just to recoup the money spent. £525 for the Porsche brake calipers and I'll find out what the discs and pads cost and put up later.
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Stiggy
I've just had these brakes shipped to me from Daveb and I'm not putting them on the car due to a change in circumstances. I've got two sets of discs and one set of pads to go with these so if you're interested give me bell. I'm not looking to make anything on these just to recoup the money spent. £525 for the Porsche brake calipers and I'll find out what the discs and pads cost and put up later.
That would be great :happy2: - I haven't yet 100% decided which setup I will go for, but the Porsche setup is a strong option. I tend to be very busy and get no time to do some research, which I would like to do first before taking the plunge - after all, my knowledge on brakes is very limited.
@Daveb1970
Thanks for taking the time for an informative response. Again, I want to know more about the brakes so would like to research so there may be a flurry of questions coming your way. You have been warned :wink:
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@Stiggy
No probs mate happy to help with as much free advice as you're stupid enough to listen to :laugh: :grin: Might be an idea to post any q's in here so people can pick holes in my answers!
I'm having to take a break from all things brakes as of about two weeks ago unfortunately just dont have enough hours in the day for the day job, so if you can find somebody selling a kit it will probably save you some time and money - certainly until the new year at the very least.
I'd think long and hard before putting £1500 quid into a setup, the NQS BBK was dreampt up and developed to fill a gap and provide access to a caliper that had a number of pad choices available. Its the sort of setup that you'll always get your money back on as well so good value. Everybody who has fitted it really rates it and SteveP got some scalps at Silverstone the other week.
Theres very little choice available between the R32 setup and the next kit along which is well over £1000.
One other thing....Joe got some juddering on the way home some from the ring, it was simply a build up of new pad material after swapping road/track pads and would have sorted itself out with some wear, the quickest way to sort the problem was to skim the discs at a machine shop. So we talked about it and realised that instead of skimming them for £30 we'd just buy some new ones for £55! Cheap consumables are a must if you fancy some ring trips or track days, imagine driving home from a trackday having toasted some of Alcons finest, whilst we're on discs you may or may not be aware you cant mix carbon metallic pads and ceramic pads on the same disc - Buy two sets of 312 discs and run some heavy duty metallics for stupid stopping power on track days - CM's are good to 800 degrees!
Cheers
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dave,
where could we go if we wanted to get custom carriers made? do you have any links etc. ive tried google but with no luck
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I've probably got a drawing for nearly every caliper that works on each platform, its either been done nor been considered and knocked on the head for some reason.
For the Mk5/6 Ive got carriers for boxsters through to Carrera GT (not kidding)
Alternatively we could change a drawing to reflect a change in disc e.g. convert the DB9 Caliper/R32 Disc drawing to the DB9/Mercedes R500 Disc
Just done R8 Fronts onto an S3 Here
http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/new-a3-s3-sportback-8p-chassis/103642-r8-brakes-s3.html (http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/new-a3-s3-sportback-8p-chassis/103642-r8-brakes-s3.html)
Theres a guy selling 996 Carrera Front Caliper Carriers on ebay from Volksbits you'd need a 20mm spacer to clear the SLK disc that he's using, I supplied a guy who then copied it just as he did my 996 rear fitting kit about 2 years ago :fighting:
So if you've got any freaky ideas for Discs/Caliper combo's chances are its been done or thought about already but give me a shout and I'll see what can be sorted it wont be overnight but we've got a cnc equipped machined shop and every hub from Mk3/Mk4/M5/S3(8p) front and rear laid on a bench for doing development work
Theres always some form of solution for most problems having said that some things just dont work well even though they should
Such as the Lamborghini Diablo brakes on a Mk4 Thread http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/257212.aspx?PageIndex=1 (http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/257212.aspx?PageIndex=1) which should have worked but proved difficult to get a pedal with on most installs and really got over took with the Porsche stuff which was easier to fit and narrower and looked better, that thread had 20k hits in 6 months!
Its interesting that the NQSBBK thread is the second most read thread on this forum!
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Dave, what would be the heavy duty metallic pad of choice for track day hooning in your opinion?
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They get a bad press but they're from the same factory as the XYZ stuff bolted to the aforementioned Bora, as long as the piston size surface area TOTALS about 48-50 sq cms then the caliper will give a good pedal, some well thought out piston sizes will give good progression after you've done that its down to what the quality of the pad and discs are like.
Some of the K Sport stuff doesnt come with dust seals which isn't optimal but with some prevenative maintenance shouldnt be a problem.
I personally wouldn't want them on my daily but probably wouldn't hesitate putting them on a lightweight track slag and when they're knacked chuck em and replace the whole lot when they're done - seal kits can be expensive as can replacement rotors.
The more conventional suppliers such as AP Brembo and Alcon are reassuringly expensive but the disc/consumable replacement costs whilst not cheap are not stupid expensive. Seal kit for a 10 pot tarox setup = £450 for 20 rubber rings!
You can get the 362mm x 32mm replacement rotor CP4542 for about £300 from AP - not bad?
Thanks Dave, for the money I am tempted to go for the 356 fronts and 330 tears. I think from memory 8 pot front 6 pot rear for £1500 but I would upgrade the pads supplied.
I'll email them for more info.
J
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Dave, what would be the heavy duty metallic pad of choice for track day hooning in your opinion?
Hi Steve
Camskill show a MDB1873M1166 semi metallic for £122 which I could probably get down to sub £100 to you
For a full blown Carbon Metallic setup you'd probably go for a Mintex F4R which they use on Group N cars and stock showroom stuff in the states, the other F series pads by mintex are all pretty hard core for Nascar and Touring Cars.
I wouldn't expect much change out of £200 for those, plus you'd need to factor in some more discs to use them with and you'd probably end up with a 1/4mm lip after each track day so possibly 3-4 days on them, you wouldn't ever have to worry about fade ever again though - ever
You'd probably be into cooling ducting as well simply to deal with the extra heat generated to stop the discs from warping - All possible but where do you stop?
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just had my mot done and the tester looked at the brakes and said to me i bet they work :laugh: so i said jump in and i will show how well they work :grin: 20mph emergency stop :laugh: his head almost came off :signLOL: with the words god they work :signLOL:
hehehe Funny Sh!t