MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: ukdub on October 20, 2010, 05:35:11 pm
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Well, after a good chat with Mark at Awesome I have decided to switch over to Revo this Friday. The car is presently running APR stage 2+ software on a K03. Soon find out if I still think APR's K03 software is the best. We will be doing a before and after RR as well which should be interesting as I don't know if anyone has done this before going from one company to another.
I will at first be running Revo's default settings to see what happens. Then we might have a play with the sps+ and change a few things. :happy2:
Any suggestions to the settings I should try? The spec of the hardware is as follows.
K03 turbo
APR exhaust
APR fuel pump
Dbilas intake
Standard intercooler (soon to be changed)
I also only run the car on Vpower.
Your thoughts please :laugh: :happy2:
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8 5 8 :happy2:
Lean is fast
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id be very interested in seeing the before and after graphs. im yet to have seen a stage 2+ k03 graph in the UK. Get them to overlay the graphs on one printout if you can then you can compare the curves
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9 5 8 for me. Ran boost 8 for a while, but 9 is smoother imo. Would be good to see the differences from APR to Revo. :happy2:
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Mate what time you going?! Im there friday at 8.30 for the same thing but im on a K04!
They are also doing a before and after RR for me too to see the difference between the 2 maps!
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guys could you put the graphs into the dyno thread in the performance section :happy2: graphs like this are definitely useful for guys in the market for a new remap.
so we have a 2+ car in there tomorrow, whos taking a stage 1/2 then?
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Mate what time you going?! Im there friday at 8.30 for the same thing but im on a K04!
They are also doing a before and after RR for me too to see the difference between the 2 maps!
Around the same time mate :happy2:
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Sweet see you there mate
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Anyone know the default settings for the K03 stage 2+
Ie is it something like 6 4 9. Also, to the people who posted their settings above, could you tell me how you came to your conclusions to the settings you have used.
Thanks
Steve
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Anyone know the default settings for the K03 stage 2+
Ie is it something like 6 4 9. Also, to the people who posted their settings above, could you tell me how you came to your conclusions to the settings you have used.
Thanks
Steve
vRSCarl is your man for that info mate :happy2:
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I think what's being left out here is the ecu will have to adapt to the new coding so absolute numbers at this RR session isn't the full story.
And as for the revo default for the 2+, it's B8 T6 F8 on V Power.
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but the reflash will reset all the adaptions so it will only be minimal surely?
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On stage one mine is running B6 F9 T6. This is the default stage one setting i am told. Think the numbers work differently on stage 2 cars
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I think what's being left out here is the ecu will have to adapt to the new coding so absolute numbers at this RR session isn't the full story.
And as for the revo default for the 2+, it's B8 T6 F8 on V Power.
It did cross my mind about the adaption and I will make this clear when I post up the results. As for the timing default being 6 on K03 stage 2+ that surprises me a little as I havn't come across many cars, here and America, that run timing that high on pump fuel even though looking a the sps+ user guide suggests you can. :confused:
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Dealers should set the cars to what they are capable of rather than just giving you the default settings. I map then log all the cars then adjust the boost, timing and fule settings to optimum. Just remember to run V-Power or Tesco 99 on all TFSi cars.
'Performance' mode on the SPS switch is B6 T5 F9 iirc. The ABC settings are user adjustable and best left to dealers or VCDS owners who know whats what. Stage 1 cars always run fuel 9. Only cars with the HPFP upgrade should change this setting.
I find it odd that any Revo dealer would just load the map then send you on your way. :confused:
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Also changing over soon can any body tell me what the default setting on a ko4 stage 2+ is
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why does everyone want to know about the settings. your going to a highly regarded VAg tuner(awesome) and to top it all off IIRC REVO reps are going to be there. what more could you want when setting up your car.
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Also changing over soon can any body tell me what the default setting on a ko4 stage 2+ is
There isnt a default setting. There is stock mode and performance mode. Performance mode is a preset mode on the SPS switch. The dealer will set the car up and the those settings will stay on the ecu (until the battery dies/gets disconnected then the settings go to zero). If you get the SPS switch then Revo HQ or the dealer will set the user settings for the car from what they have found best.
Hope that makes sense :laugh:
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Also changing over soon can any body tell me what the default setting on a ko4 stage 2+ is
There isnt a default setting. There is stock mode and performance mode. Performance mode is a preset mode on the SPS switch. The dealer will set the car up and the those settings will stay on the ecu (until the battery dies/gets disconnected then the settings go to zero). If you get the SPS switch then Revo HQ or the dealer will set the user settings for the car from what they have found best.
Hope that makes sense :laugh:
Thanks for that Alex
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Will be interested in the results as I'm running Stage 2 (though I don't have the fuel pump) :popcornsoda:
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Awesome have just put up some interesting figures from APR- REVO on a 07 S3 on there facebook page, will be interesting to see what happens to you guys :popcornsoda:
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the results look good....i want. :signLOL:
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il post it
Audi S3 07
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc4%2Fhs827.snc4%2F68738_451455163333_39558993333_5267630_4665057_n.jpg&hash=8fc82d0191e20f83528f421e20288978ad45540e)
REVO rocks the rollers once again, REVO vs APR tested back to back on Scirocco 2.0 Tsi APR 266bhp against a whopping 290 bhp of the REVO .... And just check the torque figures out to
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc4%2Fhs792.snc4%2F67217_450726773333_39558993333_5258305_4323655_n.jpg&hash=16ead419cf7b5f65e97618973ab571d13231d05e)
so the stage 1 is looking very good in comparison as is the TSI
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@ the OP, did you get it sorted mate :happy2:
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ahh was asking for that Rocco TSI graph.
Wigit will be interested.
Not sure that massive torque surge will do the standard clutch any good tho.
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@ the OP, did you get it sorted mate :happy2:
I am there in the morning (Friday) so I will update the thread live so to speak from awesome :laugh:
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Not sure that massive torque surge will do the standard clutch any good tho.
How else would Revo be able to wave their numbers willy? :wink:
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Not sure that massive torque surge will do the standard clutch any good tho.
How else would Revo be able to wave their numbers willy? :wink:
:signLOL: :signLOL: :signLOL:
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Nutha thread with these numbers on http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20676.msg283288.html#msg283288
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Ben r is there friday having his apr stage 2+ switched to revo stage 2+ on his ed30
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Wigit will be interested.
Not sure that massive torque surge will do the standard clutch any good tho.
i'll reserve comment and make my own mind up on the figures when the file goes on mine and i see how it drives, no rush to dyno but know a few i now trust, however, may need to do some performance comparisons (in gear) with the Pirelli, its a bit full on willy waving for my tastes i'm afraid
i see the number of rocs with clutch upgrades increasing soon lol
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could really do with an independant dyno really. there is potential for an agenda here, to help massage out those figures.
looking back at that TSI, maybe APR held back the torque for a reason. 330Ibft isnt tobe sniffed at but 390Ibft is bloody nuts in a FWD lol
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I would be surprised if that car makes 390lb/ft.
Not saying anyone has done anything wrong operating the dyno. I just find it hard to believe the car has 300+ lb/ft from 2000-5000rpm. It even has over 250lb/ft for most of the useable rev range. That would annihilate most things on the road.
Hold on just had a thought…….. has anyone bought Hurdy's NOS kit :evilgrin:
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could really do with an independant dyno really. there is potential for an agenda here, to help massage out those figures.
looking back at that TSI, maybe APR held back the torque for a reason. 330Ibft isnt tobe sniffed at but 390Ibft is bloody nuts in a FWD lol
how is that little 2.0T making 390lbft of torque with that ihi turbo? Even the k04 with full bolt ons will struggle to get that amount of torque and its not a million miles off a stage 1 TTRS either!
Do revo claim thats the standard expected torque figure for that car?
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I wouldnt read much into the peak figure as the turbo spools tbh, I have seen a few instances where the rolling road setup (lower load, quick runup) shows a high peak but in reality its not.
I would suspect the OE clutch to slip straight away at 400lftlbs tbh if it were real
comparing 2 softwares on same dyno/day is valid for a relative difference though :happy2:
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First run with the stage 2+ APR map give 253 bhp and 305lbft. Not as much as I thought. Just waiting for the Revo map to be uploaded.
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:popcornsoda:
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I reckon youll see 290/360 next!!!
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:popcornsoda: :popcornsoda:
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I reckon youll see 290/360 next!!!
Not quite lol
Final result is 271bhp and 332lbft which I think is not bad for an engine with 100k on it. Will post the graph later this evening :happy2:
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Still a big improvement on the APR figures :happy2:
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id like to hear what APR's thoughts are on this! :signLOL:
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id like to hear what APR's thoughts are on this! :signLOL:
What summed it up for me was when I was walking out the workshop and Jim said to me "I can't believe we have being lied to all this time"
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I'm not too suprised about the torque figures out of the new 2.0TFSI engine, the Audi versions with 211ps put out 258 lbft off the production line from 1600-4200 revs not sure if there are any actual physical differences between the two but there is clearly alot more torque to be liberated from them, to put it into perspective thats as much as the 2.0TDI 170PS. :party:
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Just spoken to Ben r whos just left awesome and his revo stage 2+ made 356bhp and 415 pound torque :happy2:
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not going to get too drawn into numbers on the revo tsi stage 2 as i'm going to be running that file for a few weeks, after a 50 mile drive i am happy with the performance on the road, the car has more torque steer in 3rd (so feels a bit more like the Pirelli Stage 1), fortunatley my rocco is running an upgraded clutch :wink:
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Did anyone get them to plot the AFR and boost on the comparison runs?? It's always handy
That way you can get an idea of where the extra came from, either boost, fuel or ignition or a combination of any of them in the right places.
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Not quite lol
Final result is 271bhp and 332lbft which I think is not bad for an engine with 100k on it. Will post the graph later this evening :happy2:
How does it feel to drive in comparison?
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Not quite lol
Final result is 271bhp and 332lbft which I think is not bad for an engine with 100k on it. Will post the graph later this evening :happy2:
How does it feel to drive in comparison?
To be honest, it feels just as smooth as the APR map in delivery, just more power everywhere and in every gear. To me, the most impressive thing is how the car feels in low boost and off boost town driving. It just feels so much more responsive without being too aggressive.
Final settings used was,
Boost 9 timing 6 fuel 9
Funny thing was we had more timing pull on the first run on the 'safe' settings which were
Boost 7 timing 4 fuel 9
Next it was 8, 4, 9 which made more power and torque, then we tried 8, 4, 8 which lost power and gained a little torque. So back to 8, 4, 9 which put the power back. Next run we increased the timing to 5 and the logs showed 0 timing pull. Next run timing to 6, again more power and torque. Mark and John said "right let's leave it there" to which I replied let's have a run with boost at 9 to see if things look fine. They did and I got my final figures :laugh: :happy2:
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Pretty impressive from just a change of software. Makes you wonder if more was available from a few tweaks of the other software.
I take it the 3 number settings you mention modify the ignition curve, fuel map and boost target across the entire rpm/ load range by a set amount? Is there no provision to modify certain areas of the map leaving others untouched?
Just interested really, not familliar with how it works on vw stuff.
Anyway bet you're well pleased with that gain without any other mods.
:happy2:
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Jim said to me "I can't believe we have being lied to all this time"
This is a troubling statement to read for several reasons. AWESOME GTI is well informed of our tuning philosophy and seemingly felt the same. AWESOME GTI also did not suddenly pick up a dyno over night. They've had one for quite some time now and had every ability to check the power gains of our software in house any time they pleased. They were present on our calibration trips to their own shop to tune European cars in years past. They were right there in front of us, looking at the exact same data as everyone else. They've had dyno day shootouts and many customers from all makes of cars and all mods on their dyno for years now so tuning philosophies differences have been clear for years.
id like to hear what APR's thoughts are on this! :signLOL:
Below is what I wrote on another thread. I've removed a few things to make this more in response to this thread.
First, I'd like to touch on APR's Conservatism/Aggressiveness at different stages with regard to how hard the turbo is run
In the case of stage 1 and stage 2 software, we are a bit more conservative compared to our on upgraded turbo software. But in all cases we do not cross the manufacturers specified levels for exhaust gas temperature. Another area where we don't run 'wide open (or shut rather)' is with the wastegate. With stage 3 software and our k04 software, we leave some headroom so the turbo can make up for differences in altitude changes and for small boost leaks and several other reasons. It also leaves some headroom for minor differences which inherently exist in all things in nature. When calibrated in house at APR we are not running wastegate duty cycle at 100% during an entire pull. 100% wastegate duty cycle means the wastegate is fully shut and all exhaust gasses are going through the turbo running it as hard as possible. For the MK6 typically with stage 1 and stage 2 you'll see less duty cycle towards redline. With our k04 and stage 3 setups (depending on engine size and turbo size) you may see a more aggressive approach where more of the turbo is utilized. This depends on many different variables, but for the most part, OEM turbo software will be less aggressive.
When running a larger turbo such as Stage 3, running it harder has a higher percentage gain than smaller turbos such as the OEM. With an OEM turbo, running harder will in some cases get more power, however the percentage gain is much smaller. This is another reason why we typically leave more on the table since running it harder doesn't make a tremendous difference. There are trade offs to running it higher and harder and our engineers chose not to do so.
Lastly, especially with stage 1 we like to make power but we like to keep things on the safe side. Most customers want it this way. Also, being under warranty, we don't feel it's fair to VW if we were to just run the turbo as hard as possible, risk failure, and then pass the bill off on them. That in our opinion is dishonest and that's not what we want to do. (Please keep in mind, I'm not insinuating other tuners do this, I'm simply stating another reason why we don't run the turbo at 100% on the mk6)
Secondly, I'd like to touch on APR's Conservatism/Aggressiveness at different stages with regard to component protection.
Each and every APR stage, from stage 1, to stage 4, has component protection enabled. What this means is as EGT's rise, we will run less aggressive fueling maps which will run richer in order to cool the exhaust gasses. For those who do not know, in many cases, running richer will result in a slight power loss, however, the fuel will actually cool down the exhaust gasses and will prevent EGT's from crossing the manufacturers limits.
You can see this on the dyno and it's even possible to see this on the road.
If you were to log air fuel ratio and do pull after pull after pull on the dyno or on the road, you'll see after a while (especially on the dyno where there is VERY limited air flow), the air fuel ratio will become richer. This is 'component' protection. The lower limit, or richer air fuel ratio can be adjusted by the tuner. It can be set to the exact same level as the 'performance' map too, thus when it comes time to cool the exhaust gasses by switching to the other map, the other map will be the same and the air fuel ratio will not change.
Not all tuners disable this feature, I'd like to make that clear, but this is an excellent reason why 1 guy with APR software can put down 1 power figure, and then you can go to the same dyno and put down less. If there is less airflow over the engine or if your car is hotter, it can switch to a mode where it's protecting the engine from harm. You'll put down less power but there will be nothing wrong with your car. Remember, cars drive ON THE ROAD, not on the dyno. There is far more air rushing throughout the engine bay, intercooler, radiators, etc cooling it down when it's on the road compared to the dyno. With these protection routines in place, it makes is possible to run the car in brutal conditions w/o harming the engine or turbo.
Stage 1 with the OEM exhaust will be the most affected power wise from component protection. It's less aggressive and will be safer. This is larger in part due to the restrictive exhaust right next to the turbocharger. It gets hot quickly! So once you remove this restriction and go to stage 2, the restriction is gone and it does not get quite as hot as quickly. This is why we can run more 'aggressively' while actually not running any hotter. It's actually less aggressive in a sense since the restriction is removed.
Third, I'd like to touch on the power difference between the APR and Revo files in these dynos
I personally do not have data in front of me other than 1 dyno graph of 1 pull with Revo map vs some APR file.
Now, looking at the two graphs, it's clear in these two dyno plots the REVO pull is making more power. This is clear as day and anyone can see it.
Could this data be faked? Absolutely.
Do I personally believe it's faked? I personally do not believe it was 'Faked'.
Could it be slightly dishonest? Absolutely.
Do I think it was slightly dishonest? Not really, but maybe just a little to make things look a bit more 'dramatic' but hopefully nothing major.
Let me touch on that:
There are several things which could have happened to make it "dishonest". Let me again say I don't think it truly is 100% dishonest or fake, but I would like to mention a few things which can make a delta appear much larger.
1. Above I mentioned component protection. One way of making less power would be to run the car over and over and over. Typically if there is not enough air flow over the vehicle, such as on the dyno, our calibration will do everything it's capable of doing to run richer, pull timing, and even pull load/boost to make less power and run safely. I don't believe they beat the crap out of the APR tune to get it to read very very low in order to sway the results. Could they have chosen the worse run for the APR data? Yes, that's always possible, but the power figures they are reporting seem to be very good to me and more or less what we advertise. I don't think they went out of their way to make the APR data look bad, but they may not have chosen the 'best' run.
2. Did they choose the best Revo run vs the worst APR run? Could have but I have no way to prove this.
3. Could this be a custom 1 off file from Revo just for this test? Yes, it could be, but I have no data to prove it.
So as you could see, it could or could not be the best run vs the worst run just to make the delta larger, but we have no data to support that claim, nor do I think it really is. I don't doubt they have the ability to make a lot of power no the OEM turbo. I know we have the ability to produce much more power on the OEM turbo compared to what we feel is safe to sell to our customers. I don't doubt at this point REVO has the same ability to produce high levels of power from the OEM turbo as well. As far as the OEM turbo goes, pulling out higher power levels is the easy part.
Conclusion
I've said it before, any tuner can run the turbo harder than anyone else out there and extract more power and we have the same ability to do this as well. This is the easy part! We have sold our software to thousands upon thousands of customers around the world and our customers are happy. We offer what we feel our customers want and are not exaggerating power gains. We offer a product line of hardware and software to support power gains from mild to wild while keeping a thick powerband of steerable and trackable power and our customers seem to love it. We calibrate the components to a level we feel is SAFE, not to the max, and not to beat other tuners.
Through motorsport racing we have stretched these engines to the limits with OEM components and put them through abuse people will not see on the road with our stage 1 or 2 software. In racing the MK6 we are limited on the boost we can run and as such have to dig else where to extract more power safely. The midrange will sacrifice but towards redline, we are pushing it to the max. We've destroyed turbos with racing. A full weekend of wide open hour long sessions of running it at the max will do that! We replace turbos after races because they can't continue to see the levels abuse we put them through over and over. This data has trickled down into our sellable performance software and since 2008 when it was first released, has proven over and over it's safe for the road and track.
We know the limits, we don't cross them for our street customers. We provide smooth and drivable power gains we feel are safe for both you, and your engine.
Thank you!
-Arin
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Makes perfect sense to me what Arin has wrote.
Its like when people approached GIAC to make a file to compete with revo for the quarter mile. They did so easy peasy and made huge bhp numbers. But then we all know that revo is generally the most aggressive, however if a revo customer wants it a little more mild all you have to do is adjust the settings via the sps, so its a best of both worlds!
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thansk fior the reply. Id agree with that as well.
i was always under the impression that the APR k04 map was slightly lower than it could have been to leave a larger gap between the k04 and GT28 as they are so similar in performance. m Lets be fair if the K04 was really close, why would someone swap to the GT28 for all that extra dollar for not a lot of extra power
Many guys on here have had run ins with the ko4 Vs GT28 and al have said that whilst on track it might be faster, it isnt in the real world
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Thanks for the Reply Arin :happy2:
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i was always under the impression that the APR k04 map was slightly lower than it could have been to leave a larger gap between the k04 and GT28 as they are so similar in performance.
With the K04 to get more power of it you have to run it near 100% towards redline. I actually was a customer at the time of K04 development and donated my car to APR for development of this kit. At the time an EGT Probe was installed in the turbo to collect both EGT data on the dyno and on the road. By pushing the turbo much harder, it was getting pretty hot and was beyond what we felt was safe for both normal use and especially track use. The last thing we want is someone to purchase this kit and burn it up the first weekend they take it out to the track. (just to clarify, I'm talking about real track, not a drag strip) So power was not limited for the sake of stage 3, it was limited because at the time we did not feel it was safe to push it harder as it was crossing the manufacturers specified limits for exhaust gas temperature.
With everything out there, there's always room to make a little more power. Is it safe? We don't think it is, but these are your cars. You can choose whatever you want. :happy2:
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Who is the main Uk APR dealer now then? and will there be any changes in the software to make it more competitive with revo, who seem to be running the monopoly on the TFSI now
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Arin. I don't have a problem with APR software or their tuning philosophy. The main problem I had was that my preferred tuning house (awesome) no longer would be suppling your product. I have run problem free on this car with APR software for over 80k. I am still not saying Revo are better than APR, just that I am now making slightly more power and feels more responsive in a low/off boost situation all with safe logs according to VCD.
Oh, and we only did one run on your software.
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Arin. I don't have a problem with APR software or their tuning philosophy. The main problem I had was that my preferred tuning house (awesome) no longer would be suppling your product. I have run problem free on this car with APR software for over 80k. I am still not saying Revo are better than APR, just that I am now making slightly more power and feels more responsive in a low/off boost situation all with safe logs according to VCD.
Oh, and we only did one run on your software.
the key thing to note is not the figures but the fact that you can feel the positive difference between the two maps. thats something that they cant make up.
We need to get these cars ran on an independent dyno now i think
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Very nice of you to stop by and even the playing field a little. Thanks.
I also admire you for taking a fairly neutral stance and not having a poke at the opposition. :happy2:
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Arin. I don't have a problem with APR software or their tuning philosophy. The main problem I had was that my preferred tuning house (awesome) no longer would be suppling your product. I have run problem free on this car with APR software for over 80k. I am still not saying Revo are better than APR, just that I am now making slightly more power and feels more responsive in a low/off boost situation all with safe logs according to VCD.
Oh, and we only did one run on your software.
I 100% agree with this, I have run more or less problem free on APR since last christmas on stage 1, then for the past month on 2+...loved every drive in it, but the fact that my closest APR dealer is now a good few hours drive away I thought it best to change over to Revo at Awesome as they are only a 45minute drive away.
The only problem i had with the APR stage 1 was that in 5th/6th gear at 130-140mph it would almost missfire and you could feel the power drop on and off, was told this was normal and a common problem on stage 1.
Again only 1 run was done on the APR with mine too....as Ash said earlier mine got 358bhp and 410lb/ft torque....can feel the difference in the two maps but as said before in this thread its not all about the figures its about where the power is in each gear and I can honestly say thay the Revo is on power a lot more than the APR was, the only way I can explain this is to say that the APR felt almost 'laggy' in comparison?
Will have more to report after the weekend after a good drive of the car!
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if you had done so many problem free miles on APR S/W, why did you want to jump ship then?
if its problem free, you dont need to visit a tuner for anything.
so you're reason for jumping ship is a bit pants in all honesty.
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Haha sorry mate if my reason seems pants to you but work this one out.... what if I was to get a problem with the APR map, or what if my dealer wiped my map off when my car went in for warranty work...theres not a chance im driving all the way down to JKM to get APR flashed back on!
Awesome 45 minutes away - great set of lads get on well with them all
JKM - 4hr 30 minutes away - don't know them from adam
It's all making sense to me mate sorry if you can't understand my reasoning :wink:
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UKDub's car made what I'd call 'the right kind of figures'. I don't want to comment on his APR reading, I don't see it can ever be accepted as fair given the circumstances, even though I suspect it was.
Here's my stage2 REVO graph from when Awesome was still an APR dealer. Save for a bit less torque because I was running a decat, it is pretty much the same. Timing pull you'd expect as the fan doesn't replicate real airflow, so intake temps would have been creeping I'd expect.
I don't see an aggressive spike on my graph, it didn't drive like that either. It was set up by Mike at Votex in Congleton, an unassuming and 'not on the scene' dealer... but the only place I trust. My car ran faultless for years, my 2 previous cars running REVO, totalling around 140k miles between all 3 likewise.
A common misconception is the throttle mapping giving the illusion of aggression, if you prefer a linear map, then simply ask for one, they will gladly oblige. I found it much more useful for track work.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.awesome-gti.co.uk%2Frollingroad%2Fgraph%2Frr_mk4_281109%2Froberts.jpg&hash=c9b32d17226504deccf48802f599edd97bf34aef)
This is a stage 2 APR K03 car, again from when Awesome were APR dealers. I know the owner, it was pretty much identical to mine in terms of upgrades.
Big spike, significantly more torque than both mine and UKDubs - All this talk of "we map to protect...." hmmm...
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.awesome-gti.co.uk%2Frollingroad%2Fgraph%2Frr.mk4scn_011108%2Foneill.jpg&hash=5b41e04a3a5f16ef7b1b787ac91d617af383a30b)
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Haha sorry mate if my reason seems pants to you but work this one out.... what if I was to get a problem with the APR map, or what if my dealer wiped my map off when my car went in for warranty work...theres not a chance im driving all the way down to JKM to get APR flashed back on!
Awesome 45 minutes away - great set of lads get on well with them all
JKM - 4hr 30 minutes away - don't know them from adam
It's all making sense to me mate sorry if you can't understand my reasoning :wink:
My thoughts as well Ben. Although I must admit, being an APR customer for the last 7 years I was more than a little curious to how the Revo software would be like on my car. So when Awesome/Revo offered a free change, I thought why not. :happy2:
Edit.
I have my APR stage 2 print out somewhere (done in 2008), so like Mr Danza, I will post both graphs up later for comparison.
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I can't blame anyone for jumping ship from APR. I had a map from APR at stage 1, but it simply didn't make the same power as the other tuners out there, as a result I bailed out to Custom Code after just a few months, then finally to Revo. :smiley:
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I fear this whole thread will be pointless.
APR will argue their corner, REVO will argue theirs. What is important is you get what you pay for and you're happy with it, whoever you use.
I'm wary of this thread turning into a ridiculous Vortex style handbag-fest. So, a word of caution to all tuners - we're not Yanks, we don't buy into that farce and we see through BS quickly by our own very British nature. Consider your heads banged together and warned.
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I fear this whole thread will be pointless.
APR will argue their corner, REVO will argue theirs. What is important is you get what you pay for and you're happy with it, whoever you use.
I'm wary of this thread turning into a ridiculous Vortex style handbag-fest. So, a word of caution to all tuners - we're not Yanks, we don't buy into that farce and we see through BS quickly by our own very British nature. Consider your heads banged together and warned.
:signLOL: You've got a point. Also, Hurdy had to lower the tone even further be mentioning CC :grin:
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Don't start me on that crap!
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:popcornsoda:
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:evilgrin:
GIAC FTW :signLOL:
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Pah, Superchips is where it's at, Hurdy. :signLOL:
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^^^^
Hmm, the idea of custard with chips doesn't appeal :evilgrin:
As Stu posted, fair do's to Arin@APR for his calm tone of post though :drinking:
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^^^^
Hmm, the idea of custard with chips doesn't appeal :evilgrin:
As Stu posted, fair do's to Arin@APR for his calm tone of post though :drinking:
Your right Robin, that is APR's thing. APR (They always have) remind me of Bose. A good product but even better marketing. Still not saying Revo are better than APR though, or vica versa.
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Has an air of messy divorce about it and then flaunting your new bow
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Has an air of messy divorce about it and then flaunting your new bow
:signLOL: Like I said, I havn't a problem with APR software or they hardware. As for the Bose comment I have thought that for years. Ultimately, I switched to Revo because of the possible issues that BenR stated in his earlier post, plus I was curious about having something for nothing. Just because my car made more power and at the moment feels nicer to drive doesn't mean I have a better or safer map. Like Arin said, they and other software providers could easily make more power but not necessarily safer power. Only time will tell. I am now at 100k and had APR software installed at 18k. If the turbo gives up tomorrow, even if I was still running APR, I wouldn't blame them as over 80k with more boost than VAG recommend is good in my book. If Awesome was still an APR dealer, I would still be APR. Simple. Divorce, no. Something free for my hobby, yes. :smiley: :happy2:
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Has an air of messy divorce about it and then flaunting your new bow
....Yep - Awesome's new partner in bed is Revo. APR will naturally be wanting to preserve their reputation as good performers regardless of Awesome. I reckon that if I wasn't already happy with Revo I'd be APR tuned - None of the others appeal.
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Has an air of messy divorce about it and then flaunting your new bow
....Yep - Awesome's new partner in bed is Revo. APR will naturally be wanting to preserve their reputation as good performers regardless of Awesome. I reckon that if I wasn't already happy with Revo I'd be APR tuned - None of the others appeal.
You could put it that way :grin:. Which, I suppose, is very true. There is nothing wrong with APR's software and even less wrong with their hardware. Awesome has made a choice to go with Revo, which was a surprise to me and I guess by the reaction, most people. They have their reasons for switching, rightly or wrongly. Thats up to you to decide.
I just fancied a free change, and at this moment in time, a good one. :drinking:
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@ ukdub:
I'm not judging whether Awesome/APR/Revo are right or wrong - It's their businesses to do as they think in their best interests :happy2:
I do think it's a pity if APR have less presence in the UK as a result. I'm now curious about the JKM-APR relationship :popcornsoda:
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Strange JKM aren't listed as a dealer on the goapr site!!
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Strange JKM aren't listed as a dealer on the goapr site!!
....The plot thickens! :popcornsoda:
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Something free for my hobby, yes. :smiley: :happy2:
I think that's the bottom line, suckered in by a £500 + VAT product for free :evilgrin:
It's human nature and nothing unique to you mate. :happy2:
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Something free for my hobby, yes. :smiley: :happy2:
I think that's the bottom line, suckered in by a £500 + VAT product for free :evilgrin:
It's human nature and nothing unique to you mate. :happy2:
....Absolutely, but you wouldn't take a freebie if it was rubbish just because it was free. Though I guess that some people would! :happy2:
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Our reasons for switching to revo are pure and simply based on the software doing exactly what it says on the tin or to our suprise exeeding the stated figures, but most of all to us is being able to offer customer support to all of you.
Awesome do not wish to enter a forum argument in front of our customers but will continue to publish our true findings,we have offered the foc charge Swop so that you are customers have the choice so we can carry on with our support, I also believe as customers are flashed over and their cars set up properly you will speak for the results yourselves
As I previously stated if someone wants to discuss our reasons for choosing Revo then please feel free to phone myself or jim or our sales team at the office 0161 7760777.
And just for the record all APR results were the results recorded back to back Within half an hour of the Revo software being flashed and run, you can't be any fairer than that.
Remember this is a choice for all our customers to choose.
Regards mark ash
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No doubt the results speak for themselves.
In a way i understand what and why Awesome did what they did. The americans can be difficult to deal with.
Though i would have liked that they had been more in contact with other dealers dependent on them regarding APR.
On a sidenote, the REVO results looks great, but bear in mind that if not easy then most tuners can tune for high figures, but this may result in other standard components not being able to take the abuse and needing upgrading.
The wise move is the conservative tune that doesn't cost further parts needing replacing. :wink:
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first off thanks to Awesome for the graphs and Arin for taking the time to post on here in a professional manner :happy2:
my thoughts
1) its always going to be 'difficult' due to the nature of the split to see the definitive wood from the trees.
2) Someone correct if Im wrong but I believe the protection mapping has been proved to exist in later REVO software, due to logged AFR dyno graphs
3) APR have always claimed compressor surge at 3-4krpm, REVO disagree so the maps differ in requested boost at this rpm by quite a lot.
4) for those of us with long running APR software we need to carefully consider changing, components tend to 'bed' together and if you change the power levels and delivery its game over. e.g. clutch = bye bye
for me I intend to switch to REVO as I cant go without the support Awesome provides. Not that I have needed it for a long time but when/if I do then I need to know its there. It also reinforces to me how much weight this aspect carries.
I will also probably turn the boost setting down to preserve my clutch. high end power shouldnt be a problem.
I will of course be posting a review in due course :happy2:
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Strange JKM aren't listed as a dealer on the goapr site!!
I was missing some of the dealer information. I have it now and several have been added and updated.
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Strange JKM aren't listed as a dealer on the goapr site!!
I was missing some of the dealer information. I have it now and several have been added and updated.
....Link? :happy2:
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http://www.goapr.com/dealer/ (http://www.goapr.com/dealer/)
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It's there alright :happy2:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fww275%2FTaufe%2F242ef940.jpg&hash=046c93823a99eb450d4cf808b8ec8c4706ce8365)
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Our reasons for switching to revo are pure and simply based on the software doing exactly what it says on the tin or to our suprise exeeding the stated figures, but most of all to us is being able to offer customer support to all of you.
Awesome do not wish to enter a forum argument in front of our customers but will continue to publish our true findings,we have offered the foc charge Swop so that you are customers have the choice so we can carry on with our support, I also believe as customers are flashed over and their cars set up properly you will speak for the results yourselves
As I previously stated if someone wants to discuss our reasons for choosing Revo then please feel free to phone myself or jim or our sales team at the office 0161 7760777.
And just for the record all APR results were the results recorded back to back Within half an hour of the Revo software being flashed and run, you can't be any fairer than that.
Remember this is a choice for all our customers to choose.
Regards mark ash
Thats Nothing!!, go on Superchips own rollers, and their results will blow your Revo claims out the water :chicken:
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Thats Nothing!!, go on Superchips own rollers, and their results will blow your Revo claims out the water :chicken:
:signLOL: :signLOL:
They always seem to have Land of Make Believe playing in the background too :laugh:
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Strange JKM aren't listed as a dealer on the goapr site!!
I was missing some of the dealer information. I have it now and several have been added and updated.
You seem to be still missing some info Arin so will help you out a little, TuningWerkes is now a Revo Dealer, Rubens from TuningWerkes has worked very closely with Awesome for sometime now and will continue to in the future, I wish them all the best in their New venture too.
TuningWerkes
Address: 40 Haling Rd Croydon Greater London CR2 6HS UK
0208 681 0208
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I know business is business but I find all this rubbishing of APR products in public by Awesome a little tiresome and somewhat childish. Awesome have been in business for a long time, supported and stood by APR products for a long time and have a good reputation as do REVO and they don't need to resort to such gutter level tactics IMHO.
REVO is a good product, as is APR and I think each has it's own place in the market. I don't see Awesome starting to post up graphs of REVO vs companies such as Celtic Tuning or Custom Code.
Perhaps many people have forgotten this -
http://www.goapr.com/revo/
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LOL, not seen that for years.
What ever came of that lawsuit again???
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Stu,
At no piont have we rubbished APR. All we have posted is Facts.
And no, you won't see us comparing, Celtic tuning, Superchips etc as we have never dealt with them.
We are just showing the differences between the 2 companies we have used.
If you don't want to see it, then don't read it!
Dean
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rubbishing of APR products in public by Awesome......... ? Forums are apparently a place for information for you as the customer to decide, so only now when we have the opportunity to bring comparable data its classed as rubbishing ???
As i said in an earlier post the customers with the product will speak for themselves, all we are doing is giving you the customer the info while we have the chance of back to back testing
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Nom nom nom
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FJohnLeland1789%2FFunny%2FPopcornHugeBags.jpg&hash=dbd986e4bca1e6a4d8c14d6e2d077e1fda546bd1)
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PMSL @ Hedge!
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LOL, not seen that for years.
What ever came of that lawsuit again???
Revo settled out of court from memory. APR used the money to buy Oettinger
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Thats Nothing!!, go on Superchips own rollers, and their results will blow your Revo claims out the water :chicken:
[/quote]
Well I have superchips stage 2+ software, HPFP, ITG and miltek TBE on my k03 engine and it made 275BHP and 315 lbft (90k miles)on totally independant rollers, PSI tuning, who sell a different software manufacturer and had every incentive to rubbish SC but were dead impressed by the figures, so the revo figures look about right to my untrained eyes given the ability to fine tune, but given the SC was only a £50 upgrade for me and v close to the revo figure, then no contest - £50 versus £500 to get a few lbft and a few bhp.
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I know business is business but I find all this rubbishing of APR products in public by Awesome a little tiresome and somewhat childish. Awesome have been in business for a long time, supported and stood by APR products for a long time and have a good reputation as do REVO and they don't need to resort to such gutter level tactics IMHO.
REVO is a good product, as is APR and I think each has it's own place in the market. I don't see Awesome starting to post up graphs of REVO vs companies such as Celtic Tuning or Custom Code.
Perhaps many people have forgotten this -
http://www.goapr.com/revo/
....I don't see any "rubbishing" of APR going on in this thread at all, Stu. The posting of information is of course presented to fly the flag of whichever tuner posts it but, unless I've missed it, there has been no rubbishing or slanging or derogatory comments about the competitor.
Whichever tuner or retailer we each favour, this thread has been particularly well behaved in its contributions I'm glad to say. :happy2:
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.
Perhaps many people have forgotten this -
http://www.goapr.com/revo/
there is a reason that many people have forgotten the lawsuit, it happened over 7 years ago and nobody was found guilty. It is not the most exciting court case to ever have happened
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Well I have superchips stage 2+ software, HPFP, ITG and miltek TBE on my k03 engine and it made 275BHP and 315 lbft (90k miles)on totally independant rollers, PSI tuning, who sell a different software manufacturer and had every incentive to rubbish SC but were dead impressed by the figures, so the revo figures look about right to my untrained eyes given the ability to fine tune, but given the SC was only a £50 upgrade for me and v close to the revo figure, then no contest - £50 versus £500 to get a few lbft and a few bhp.
Totally agree :happy2:
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Stu,
At no piont have we rubbished APR. All we have posted is Facts.
And no, you won't see us comparing, Celtic tuning, Superchips etc as we have never dealt with them.
We are just showing the differences between the 2 companies we have used.
If you don't want to see it, then don't read it!
Dean
Dean
Perhaps rubbish is too stronger word in this case but it seems to me the Awesome and REVO have gone all out to make a big impact in the market.
Posts like this - http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20676.msg283148.html#msg283148
REVO yet again ROCK ROCK Rockin the socks of APR
and the various Facebook comments and postings in the REVO group of the same plots which were obviously carried out on the Dyno at Awesome seem to me to be taking cheap shots at APR with an undertone of bitterness thrown in for good measure. What's done is done, Awesome are no longer APR dealers and are now REVO dealers enough said.
Ok, this might not be the case in your eyes but as a potential customer that's how it looks to me. Awesome have always appeared to be a professional outfit and I don't think public 'tit for tat' or 'this is better than that' is representative of the professionalism that I thought Awesome thrived on.
Don't get me wrong, I have spent a serious amount of money on Software from REVO over many years and I like the product, in fact I would go so far as to say it is the best 2.0 TFSi product on the market, for my needs. If someone came to me today and said I want some new software for my GTi then my answer would likely be REVO although the recent price reduction by APR does now warrant some consideration if you don't want the flexibility REVO offers. FWIW I have carried a REVO banner add on one of my websites for well over a year, Free of Charge, so my argument here is not against REVO or indeed APR.
I think the point that Arin makes is valid, people shouldn't get hung up on the numbers and not everyone wants to push their car to the extreme limit and in that instance APR would appear to offer a suitable and proven product - one which until recently Awesome would have argued was the best on the market. This is probably borne out by your previous customers who all claim to be satisfied with their software.
I won't get drawn into the Dyno vs Facts arguments and would reserve judgement on the exact increase until I saw it independently tested. Suffice to say I have previously been involved with REVO over some period of time in trying to ascertain true figures vs advertised figures and it's always going to be a contentious issue.
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Stu
Perhaps you should come in and have a chat directly with me then this way you may have a clearer picture or perhaps a personal phonecall between ourselves would suit, phone me at the office or if you want i will give you my personal mobile number via pm if you like.
I think then you will have a clearer and more precise idea of the situation.
Thanks in advance
Regards
Mark
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Well said Stu :happy2:
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+1 stu.
Anyway ive heqard that custom code software is awesome
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I've just found Custom Code's mapping :laugh:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/realpropercustard_65614
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Stu
Perhaps you should come in and have a chat directly with me then this way you may have a clearer picture or perhaps a personal phonecall between ourselves would suit, phone me at the office or if you want i will give you my personal mobile number via pm if you like.
I think then you will have a clearer and more precise idea of the situation.
Thanks in advance
Regards
Mark
PM sent Mark :happy2:
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.
Perhaps many people have forgotten this -
http://www.goapr.com/revo/
there is a reason that many people have forgotten the lawsuit, it happened over 7 years ago and nobody was found guilty. It is not the most exciting court case to ever have happened
I'm not at liberty to discuss the settlement but if people believe both parties walked away w/o any form of compensation, you are very mistaken.
I think the point that Arin makes is valid, people shouldn't get hung up on the numbers and not everyone wants to push their car to the extreme limit and in that instance APR would appear to offer a suitable and proven product - one which until recently Awesome would have argued was the best on the market. This is probably borne out by your previous customers who all claim to be satisfied with their software.
Thank you Stu.
A dyno plot is only 1 run showing the results of one run in one condition compared to another. There is no other data attached. We don't know what EGT's looked like and we don't know how hard the car was run. We don't know if the revo settings were set to "max" for the dyno, and then dialed back to a safe level for the street. Heck in some of the cases we don't even know if the software was production software or a "Kill Them All!" dyno assassination file seeing as it's not even for sale. (http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showpost.php?p=121971&postcount=130)
Making power is easy. It's actually really easy! It's often the easiest part once you've figured everything out. Doing it safely is something else. What we have chosen to sell to customers is what we feel is safe and reliable. We believe it makes the advertised power on the road. We have hundreds of thousands of customers using our software around the country and a overwhelming amount are satisfied with their purchase.
:happy2:
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Stu,
I do take all your points on board and do so with respect.
I'll let you have a chat with mark first and we can chat afterwards openly.
Arin, please don't see this as any kind of attack on APR, it is not. we have always had and still do have great respect for APR.
Its just that our business ideals did not meet.
The dyno results you see are exactly what the cars are going out on the road with and not running at max levels.
These are backed off figures. We could push them more.
They were all logged for EGT, AFR, boost, timing etc during the set up.
If you are suggesting we are modifying the settings to give higher readings for advertising purposes, you are sorely mistaken!
These are fantastic figures, which we are very happy with. And so are our customers. which, at the end of the day, are the most important judges.
Regards,
Dean
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PS
If anyone who would like their REVO software setup on the rollers (regardless of whether you had the remap done by us or not),
Then you are more than welcome to watch as we does this to make sure we don't back it off after we have run it.
We will do this at the cost of a rolling road run.
£55 + vat (2wd)
£65 + vat (4WD)
Best wishes,
Dean
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Dean
just ask Uk dub the car was done with him sitting in it and he controlled what he wanted
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Will do, cheers Mark.
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Dean
just ask Uk dub the car was done with him sitting in it and he controlled what he wanted
I sure was, check out post 48. :driver:Plus I am sure if I have any concerns, they will log my car out on the road as well.
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we need an independant dyno i think. A nice dyno dynamics RR should do the trick. Any DD rollers in manchester?
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Cheers for the reply Steve.
Sounds like a plan Sy!
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we need an independant dyno i think. A nice dyno dynamics RR should do the trick. Any DD rollers in manchester?
Not sure on that one, would be good though. With my results, I can't tell you if the final figures are accurate. What I can tell you that with the new software and with adjusting the settings, I made an extra 18bhp and 27lbft of torque. Not sure if that will be the same now because of the adaption.
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what about RS tuning in leeds, the drive over should help that adaption :grin:
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what about RS tuning in leeds, the drive over should help that adaption :grin:
Might have adapted the other way :signLOL: Will have to sort out a RR day in Leeds. It's not that far. If I remember correctly, BenR is from that neck of the woods as well.
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briskoda RR day RS tuning 30Oct http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/175092-rolling-road-day-at-rs-tuning/ (http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/175092-rolling-road-day-at-rs-tuning/)
£35 quid( £5 upfront to secure your place)
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That would of been perfect, but as I am working the Friday night, i will be in bed most of the Saturday. Hopefully get something sorted for December or January. :happy2:
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I've just found Custom Code's mapping :laugh:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/realpropercustard_65614
absolutely priceless
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Now what's with the Custom Code ribbing! I ran a stage 1map on my mk5 tdi for 40,000 miles, no issues at all and made good power!
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Stu
Thanks for the phonecall 1 hour and 3 minutes lol, that was a good chat, appreciate your imput and speak soon
Regards
Mark
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Now what's with the Custom Code ribbing! I ran a stage 1map on my mk5 tdi for 40,000 miles, no issues at all and made good power!
if you fancy a boxing match whilst getting your car mapped then choose custard code FTW!! :grin: :grin:
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Stu
Thanks for the phonecall 1 hour and 3 minutes lol, that was a good chat, appreciate your imput and speak soon
Regards
Mark
As they say 'it's good to talk' :happy2:
Lucky I'm not on an hourly rate :signLOL:
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Now what's with the Custom Code ribbing! I ran a stage 1map on my mk5 tdi for 40,000 miles, no issues at all and made good power!
if you fancy a boxing match whilst getting your car mapped then choose custard code FTW!! :grin: :grin:
:confused:
I must have missed something obviously.... :popcornsoda:
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Now what's with the Custom Code ribbing! I ran a stage 1map on my mk5 tdi for 40,000 miles, no issues at all and made good power!
if you fancy a boxing match whilst getting your car mapped then choose custard code FTW!! :grin: :grin:
:confused:
I must have missed something obviously.... :popcornsoda:
tom can explain! :grin: :grin: