MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Track Day Technical => Topic started by: laurent.d on December 26, 2010, 07:50:14 am
-
I made a mistake choosing the size of my 328-4 pots Brembo brake and they are a bit to small for track use with 300HP revo Engine remap.
As Brembo are over priced, I am considering 355-6 pots VW Racing Brakes as I was pleased with my experience with VWR or AP Racing 355-6 pots S3 kit.
Does any body who use them on track can gives me some advises?
Thanks
-
id bet that 328 discs are more than adequate. what pads/brake fluid are you using though. On what basis do you think the 328mm discs are inadequate?
-
Contact GobblePlease on here got the best brakes ever fitted to a Mk5 for sale soon......
330mm discs on a CP3215 50mm high pad.....
As fitted to a 450bhp 6R4 with uprated brakes..........
Will be significantly cheaper than a comparitively (to them) junior and unproven VWR setup.
330mm is very optimal on a mk5
-
I have my 328x28 brembo brakes for 17 000km now.
The brakes are awesome on road but on track I had many disapoitment.
After 7500 km of road use and enjoyment, I went on the Nürburgring and drove 4 laps.
Everything was right and the brakes awesome even if I had some little brake vibration afterward.
Then, afyter my way back my brakes had 10 000km and I discovered that my pads were almost wear out.
I thought I found out the explanation of vibrations.
I decided to buy new Brembo pads for my next Nürburgring trip.
So I break in my new pads during my 550km tripe to the Ring and then lap after lap get more and more vibrations.
After 14 laps the pads were already gone!!!!
It was a Sunday, and hopefully Digi’tech at Nürburg was open and sold me and fited new Carbotech pads on my car.
The vibrations were a little bit less but still there.
Get back to France, I called the workshop where I bought my brakes and Brembo French dealer and we find out that OE Brembo pads werre not strong enough for my use.
The pads have over heated, deposit uneven dust on the rotor and then uneven wear out that causes vibrations.
So I had to change the rotor, I took some slotted ones as drilled ones had already some cracks.
And I bought some Endurance Racing Yellow PAGID RS29 pads.
To be sure, I also made some brake ducting to avoid overheating.
So now, everything almost fine with my brakes (but I style have some vibration at Adenau) except that I wasted some money because of Brembo pads and that I wonder if, as I go faster and faster around the Ring and I will may be need soon to fit semi slicks tyres, it was a good idea to take the medium brakes size and not the bigger one. I have to recognise that I under estimated the need of big brakes. And that for this time, bigger should be better.
That's why I'm considering 355 VWR or AP brakes.
-
328x28 is, in my opinion, too small a disc to cope with what you need. The Brembo calipers used in their road kits aren't the best either.
I had the Alcon 343x32 4-pot kit (http://www.alcon.co.uk/brake-kits.html), it was exceptional. Replacement rotors/pads/parts all much cheaper than most other kits and very well made. I would choose Alcon every time for any car I have from now on. You can spec the TT 360/6-pot kit, but I felt it was a bit too powerful for me. Link (http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motorsport/Brands/Alcon/Alcon_Braking/Alcon_Brake_Kits/Alcon_Advantage_Extreme_Brake_Kit/1715/489/0/148650/22385) to show what you need, however they can be bought cheaper in France maybe?
3MO Performance
France
Tel. +33 (0)2 43 532 939
Danielson Equipement
France
Tel. +33 (0)3 86 212 255
JL Marin Racing
France
Tel. +33 (0)4 50 324 139
Oreca Diffusion
France
Tel. +33 (0)825 325 425
I think I would choose the AP kit over the VWR kit, simply because the pad choice is greater and it'll be easier to get spares. Lots of places sell AP, only VWR sell VWR and they have been known to be a bit poor when it comes to service. That said, they do have a 1-race used set for sale very cheaply. Link (http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/Tuning%20General%20Pages/Car%20and%20Parts%20for%20Sale.html)
-
I'm surprised about what you write about VWR service as I had a very good experience with them.
-
The VWR kit is made by Caparo(AP Racing)
-
The AP stuff is very hardcore, and weighs the same as a bag of maltesers, anything 350mm+ and 32mm thick+ will weigh twice as much as a 330x28
330x28 pro 5000 setup with some ducting would be unbeatable, Bryan's setup also comes with some RS4-2 Blues
I think I got caliper/carrier/pad/disc/bell/fittings to under 10kg per corner - awesome
Caparo is Caparo - AP Racing is AP Racing - Brembo is Ap Racing
-
http://www.caparoapbraking.com/about/about-us.asp
-
I'm surprised about what you write about VWR service as I had a very good experience with them.
They've always been helpful to me too, but others have had issues. It's got to be a consideration given you're so far away and you've no other choice if you have a problem with VWR.
-
The AP stuff is very hardcore, and weighs the same as a bag of maltesers, anything 350mm+ and 32mm thick+ will weigh twice as much as a 330x28
330x28 pro 5000 setup with some ducting would be unbeatable, Bryan's setup also comes with some RS4-2 Blues
I think I got caliper/carrier/pad/disc/bell/fittings to under 10kg per corner - awesome
Caparo is Caparo - AP Racing is AP Racing - Brembo is Ap Racing
Out of curiosity where would you run the ducting from to the pro 5000's, I presume it would be via a set of open fog grills? Is the major modification needed to set the ducting up and what type of ducting would you run? Thank you
-
http://www.caparoapbraking.com/about/about-us.asp
AP Caparo = AP Caparo (ex lockheed). AP Racing of Coventry is a different company albeit ultimately owned by Brembo the AP bit is a red herring.
-
The AP stuff is very hardcore, and weighs the same as a bag of maltesers, anything 350mm+ and 32mm thick+ will weigh twice as much as a 330x28
330x28 pro 5000 setup with some ducting would be unbeatable, Bryan's setup also comes with some RS4-2 Blues
I think I got caliper/carrier/pad/disc/bell/fittings to under 10kg per corner - awesome
Caparo is Caparo - AP Racing is AP Racing - Brembo is Ap Racing
Out of curiosity where would you run the ducting from to the pro 5000's, I presume it would be via a set of open fog grills? Is the major modification needed to set the ducting up and what type of ducting would you run? Thank you
Open grilles, or a holesaw on the normal ones with a venturi.
Run through the inside of the engine bay (zip tying to the liner) and exit the arch liner opposite the forward wishbone leg
Route over the wishbone.
Remove or modify the splash shield, point duct to centre of disc, not the friction face.
Use joints at the the arch liner, as a 90degree bend will rub through a pipe. Also, use metal zip ties near heat sources.
I'd also recommend anti-crush sprung neoprene hose.
-
The AP stuff is very hardcore, and weighs the same as a bag of maltesers, anything 350mm+ and 32mm thick+ will weigh twice as much as a 330x28
330x28 pro 5000 setup with some ducting would be unbeatable, Bryan's setup also comes with some RS4-2 Blues
I think I got caliper/carrier/pad/disc/bell/fittings to under 10kg per corner - awesome
Caparo is Caparo - AP Racing is AP Racing - Brembo is Ap Racing
When you mean AP stuff, you mean AP Racing or AP Caparo?
Pro 5000 caliper are (without pads) about 2,5 kg for 4 pots and 3,5 kg for 6 pots
330x32 and 356x32 are about (without pads) 6,5 kg
A complete weight per side for a VWR Brake assembly is 11.96kg per side (disc and bell weight 7.04kg, and the caliper weighs 4.92kg) I don't know if caliper weight include pads and bracket or not.
So I assume that full ( rotors, bells, calipers, pads, bracket) brakes weight are very close to each other.
The problème with PRO 5000 is that you have to chose the calipers the rotors and moreover what about rotor bell and caliper mounting bracket specification?
How do you manage it?
I'm surprised about what you write about VWR service as I had a very good experience with them.
They've always been helpful to me too, but others have had issues. It's got to be a consideration given you're so far away and you've no other choice if you have a problem with VWR.
I understand you, but I gave them my car one year ago for one month, they completly removed my drive train to fit a full K04 turbo kit and a Quaife LSD in my DSG gear box.
And I have no issue with it. It works brillantly after more than 10 000km.
So as VWR brake are made by AP CAPARO which is a big company, that brakes are pretty simple in term of number of parts. I don't realy worry about issue.
Moreover those brakes are used in VWR Cup so I can be sure they will handle my track use.
-
Took a month to fit a K04 kit and a diff?! :surprised: Simon usually works fast!
I would still go for AP over anything else. With regards to your Brembo setup, ive done AP discs on floating or fixed bells that work with those calipers. Mate them with some pagid rs14's or similar and some srf fluid and they will be fine.
The main issue with the car is that even with esp off, the stupid esp can still apply the brakes to help with traction and slides. All this does is over heat the brakes.
-
Bear in mind that I leave in France and that we both didn't want that I would have to come bake to solve an issue..
VWR should keep my car only to weeks, but as they had some delay with some parts, and where busy with their race business, I told them to take their time and that they could keep the car two more weeks.
I Emailed AP Racing and they told me that their Racing brakes kit weren't suitable for road use.
My concerne with AP Racing Road kit is:
1/ I need the S3 355x32 kit as like my Brembo the 328x28 should be a bit small. And I willl use S3 swivel.
2/ The price AP Racing is 1000€ more expensive than VWR ones. Brembo are even more expensive 1700€ more than VWR!!! :surprised:
3/The look (yet it can sound stupid) I want my car to look discreet (mod's are forbiden in France) And Black/Red peinted yellow badged AP Racing brakes are not the most discreet. While VWR can provide it in silver grey (close to OEM colour) and without any logo. My Brembo are silver grey and almost nobody notice them.
4/ After sale support.
I didn't have any after sale support in France from my dealer nor Brembo France after my brakes issues. Because after market brakes have no warranti, here. Except that I got a 10% discount on the new rotors and pads I had to bay. I lost 1000€!!!
And it will be the same with AP brakes
My issue came from the Brembo pads which are not suitable for heavy track use.
So it destroyed my rotors in 2 pads set and 10 000km.
Solution?!! Yellow Pagid RS29!!! :happy2:
I dont think it will be any worst with VWR.
About what I have read on this forum, they are very helpfull even with people living abroad.
VWR Brakes are provided with FERRODO DS2500 which are road pads and not suitable for track use.
I asked them if they can provide it with yellow Pagid RS29 pads. I'm waiting for the reply.
It seems that on track people meet issues with any brand of after market brahes kit. Brembo, AP Racing, Alcon, VWR, etc...
I'm sure know it mainly come from the use of no suitable (road) pads.
I almost sort my problem out with Pagid pads. But still I think they are a little to small for a 300Hp car and track use. About what I understoud, bigger brakes handle heat better.
That said, I have one last question:
Does anybody would technically disadvise VW Racing brakes?
-
i love all this non proven brakes bollox :booty: these / my brakes vwr brakes have been proven on the race track by racing drivers not us track day lot so please only comment on something u know about and have driven and have used :P trust me they work no matter how hard you push em but if you think they dont i am 100% sure a phone cal to vwr and a test drive in a car with these on will soon make u think twice about saying they dont work :rolleye:
-
If the AP Racing kit is not suitable for the road, then I see you having 2 choices. Although I'm sure when I looked for brakes, you could buy a road version of the 360/6-pot kit??
VWR kit or the 360mm/6-pot Alcon kit for the TT/S3 (as the normal 343/4-pot Golf kit I had won't fit S3 hubs).
Both are as far as I'm concerned excellent on road and track, both are used on race cars in the VWCup and a few of us have run both on the road for a long time with no issues.
The VWR kit is cheaper to buy, the Alcon kit is probably £500 more but has better pad choice. Replacement Alcon discs are around £500, most pads are £150-200. Alcon discs are known to last much longer than AP/Brembo, I don't know how they would compare to VWRs?
I also don't know how much pads and discs are for the VWR kit, maybe Matt could help?? I think then once you know how much they are going to cost you per year, you are in a position to choose.
-
MAT ED30,
I'm not sure I get it right.
Do you answer to my post?!
Because I never said at any time that VWR brakes don't work properly!!
-
Thank's Tony,
I'm waiting for Matt answer for pads choice.
-
MAT ED30,
I'm not sure I get it right.
Do you answer to my post?!
Because I never said at any time that VWR brakes don't work properly!!
no u did not but a few others did :rolleye:
i am on the phone with vwr later today so will ask about pads :happy2:
-
Did you get an answer on pads matt? I've been waiting for a reply to my e-mail!
-
No, still not.
-
i will be down at vwr this week so will get a full list of what can be had but i know ds2500 and 3000 are fitted to them
-
ok got your info ds2500 ,ds3000,Mitex F2 and F4 but the pads are normal shape so should be plenty of choice out for them :smiley:
-
I'd have thought VWR/Caparo have copied one of the common AP/Alcon/Brembo pad shapes, a lot of them are all the same across the makes when you look into it.
Maybe see if you can get a part number for the pads and cross ref it.
-
I'm waiting for the Matt reply, he will tell me whether or not There is yellow Pagid RS29 compatible for the VWR brake kit, and the parts number.
-
Did you get a part number for the pads at all Matt?
-
are u running the brakes on yours now Theo? i should be down with Mat on Friday so will get as much info as i can :happy2:
-
Yeh i have the brakes on mine! Thanks :happy2:
-
Good man
-
Did you manage to get a part number for the pads or a price this weekend Matt? Be useful to know the Ferodo number for DS2500's
-
its on the web site
-
Am i being really blind, but I cant see it! :ashamed:
-
Am i being really blind, but I cant see it! :ashamed:
Search the site
Golf Mk5
Contact Us Select: ► Golf 5 ► Golf 6 ► Scirocco ► Other VW ► Other Volkswagen Group
▼Golf 5 upgrades:
►Brake Upgrades
►Power Upgrades
►Suspension
►Drivetrain
►Body
►Wheels
►Air Filter
►Exhaust
►Race-Only Parts
►Workshop
4 Quatro Park - Tanners Drive
Blakelands - Milton Keynes
MK14 5BP - United Kingdom
T ► (0044) 1908 210088
F ► (0044) 1908 210088
E ► info@volkswagenracing.co.uk
►VWR Performance Brake Pads
Brake pads can make a significant difference to the performance of the brakes on any car that is driven enthusiastically, especially one that has had a performance upgrade carried out.
It's also of course one of the most cost-effective modifications you can make.
The VWR pads are made of a harder compound that the standard pads, meaning that they have a much better resistance to fade during hard usage.
Available in 'Fast Road' for vehicle used mainly on the road, or 'Road/Track', a harder compound for cars that are taken on-track.
PRICE FROM £130.83 excl VAT FAST ROAD PART No VWR1KO 130
PRICE FROM £200.83 excl VAT ROAD/TRACK PART No VWR1KO 131
► Volkswagen Racing Home
► Volkswagen Racing Cup
► VWR TeamWear
► VWR Performance Car Parts
► Golf 5
► Golf 6
► Scirocco
► Other Volkswagen
► Other Volkswagen Group
► Gallery
► Used Cars & Parts for Sale
► FAQ
► Our Sponsors
► Volkswagen Racing's History
► Gallery
► Contact Us
▼Golf 5 favourites:
VWR Big Brake Upgrade
VWR Engine Mounts
VWR Rear Exhaust
VWR Air Filter
VWR Sport Springs
VWR Power Upgrades
VWR Quickshift
hope that helps took some finding :signLOL:
-
I took it from reading their website that those were pads for the OEM brakes rather than for the VWR kit?
-
:ashamed: my mistake :stupid: :signLOL: I will
Ask him for you :happy2:
-
Thats no worries mate! I thought I had actually lost the plot for a minute :rolleye:
I'm waiting for a reply to my e-mail of a few weeks ago, so if you get an answer it would be much appreciated!
-
I've sent 2 mails to VWRacing some time ago (asking for product information) and I got no answers.
Maybe it's better to call.
-
I've sent 2 mails to VWRacing some time ago (asking for product information) and I got no answers.
Maybe it's better to call.
....Unfortunately that's not unusual. Even if you phone, keep phoning again if someone isn't available who can help you with your specific query. I assure you that nothing is meant by their relatively poor responses. Personally I accept it and always get through eventually and am happy with the work they do on my car or I wouldn't drive a round trip of 340 miles.
-
they have been a bit rushed the last few week having full builds on ie full cars and a new caddy van so they have been crazy busy,been trying to get mine sorted with them but just have to keep trying :sad1: but i wont go to anyone else pure and simple :smiley:
-
That's the way it is with VWR. They are mostly very busy. But when you live them your car, you wish they wil spend more time on it that on the phone. So leave them some time and every thing will be fine. :happy2:
Matt answered me that they are waiting fore new set of brakes and is still waiting fore some information to answer my questions.
So, keep waiting... :popcornsoda:
-
As I see aftermarket brakes weigh about 12kg/side, I would be curious to hear if somebody knows how much does the R32/S3 brakes weigh. I still can't decide if it's worth to upgrade from R32/S3 brakes (HEl lines + Carbotech pads) to something better (keep in mind my car is pretty heavy with 1600kgs or 150kg over standard due to audio system). For now, I've just ordered the Carbotech's new RP2 pads to replace my worn XP10. The RP2 have the grip of XP12 but last 2 times longer (they are a little bit tougher on the discs though) ! Another question would be if anyone changed the piston seals after some track days (I don't know if they need to be changed) !
-
The R32 setup weighs a ton. I cant say I have noticed that extra weight once behind the wheel, I've just noticed brakes that work much better than the 312mm.
-
GTI brakes are about 15kg/side
R32/S3 are about 20kg/side
-
.
My 4-pot AP Racing front brakes incl everything weigh 10.5kg/side.
I didn't get them because of being lightweight though.
-
Wow, 20kgs per side as compared to 10-12kgs would mean 8-10kgs save per corner (and this counts more than the same static mass inside the car). Now, the question is how much improvement can I see over my current setup knowing I already have top pads suited only for semislicks + HEL lines + RBF660 fluid ? I can't really feel the extra weight either because of the power the car has but maybe it can bring some improvement on the track that can be measured in time gain. On the other hand, with the power/torque the car has, I might be spinning the wheels even more on corner exits with 8-10kgs less per wheel !
-
^^^^
20kg per side is still 2kg more than the total weight of my AP brake and OZ wheel! (excludes tyre weight).
My carbon bonnet will also save some frontal weight but I'm not prone to wheelspin as I'm only maxing 260bhp and also helped by the Quaife diff perhaps. It all supports how driveability is what's really important.
-
Robin, I have wheelspin now with the heavy brakes. I don't want to imagine how it would be with those !
-
Robin, I have wheelspin now with the heavy brakes. I don't want to imagine how it would be with those !
....And you are Revo Stage 3 with how many neddies at the front wheels? I'm not even Revo Stage 2+. There are other factors too why you may be prone to wheelspin including how you modulate your right foot.
-
Of course it's how you modulate your foot but I'd like the grip of a 4WD on corner exits. I've had some very nice runs with some Nissan GT-R and a Audi RS4 MTM at the last track day and the difference in grip on corner exits was noticeable. Now, with the Kumho V70a the wheelspin is much less than with my street tires but still there. I'm thinking, if I can feel the difference in weight between my summer and winter wheels (wich is only 2kg), the 10kg from the brakes should be like night and day for the steering (since the car has 380HP/475NM, the difference isn't felt on how the car pulls but on the steering response or wheelspin). That's why, before buying a BBK, I'm considering the following :
1) How much better can a BBK + a good track pad be than my R32 brakes + track pads + HEL lines + RBF660 fluid ? My brakes are already pretty good and I haven't had fade on Nurburgring at all but on Hungaroring the pedal softened a little bit on the end of the session (nothing to worry about though as the brake was still strong)
2) Buying a BBK also means taking into account a second pair of discs (one for the road and one for the track > Carbotech pads don't like to be used on the same discs after anothe pad) + I need to keep my 17" rims + winter tires & semislicks. Most brake kits recommended for a car having my weight use 340-360mm discs and have pretty large calipers wich mean 18"+ and spacers !
-
Wheelspin shouldn't even factor in your decision, it's unspring weight - it still has exactly the same amount of car pressing down on the tyres.
Even so, most of the weight saving comes from the centre of the disc being replaced with an aluminium bell, so its rotating mass effect isn't much at all. The caliper will be lighter too, but compared with the benefits, it honestly doesn't matter.
I used Carbotech XP8s on both road and track all year round, they worked from cold and never, ever faded on any track. That was on a 343mm Alcon kit, which a 17" wheel fitted over too. Because the brakes are better cooled and not heatsoaking one big lump of mass, and because you use them less because they're much more powerful, you can use a softer compound pad. Am I right in saying you have XP10s and got them to fade?
-
Even so, most of the weight saving comes from the centre of the disc being replaced with an aluminium bell, so its rotating mass effect isn't much at all. The caliper will be lighter too, but compared with the benefits, it honestly doesn't matter.
One small correction... This is not what "moment of inertia" stands for. If there is some weight it is better to be near the point of rotation. Of course that having floating rotors will help, but it is not simple to calculate how much they actually help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_inertia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_inertia)
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
-
I had XP10 and the fade was barely noticeable at the end of session after I got out of the track to cool the brakes. I've now ordered the RP2 endurance pad (equivalent to XP12 but 2 times the lifetime). Ok Tony, can anyone write here all the kits using discs between 340 and 360mm with 30-34mm thickness that will fit under the OEM 17" denvers ? ( I don't mind putting some spacers if needed but not more than 10mm). Until now we have :
1) 343mm Alcon fits under 17"
2) From DaveB's recommendations another option would be the RS4 B5 4pot brake system wich uses 360x32mm discs. They are good for limiting rims but don't know what's the weight and how good they are compared to R32s or Alcon, Ap racing BBKs...(there seems to be 2 disc options for these, a one piece disc and a lighter 2-piece one made by audi-quattro). I also don't know the price for the 2 types of discs
PS : What I like about R32 brakes is that I can get OEM discs with less than 100 Euro !!!
-
3) Movit 342x34 should fit under 17 (not sure).
-
Fuscobal,
If you are looking for a cheap upgrade over OEM brakes and that you don't care of adding weight to your car (I don't think you do as you already added a 150kg system sound :wink:) which fit under 17'' rims, then R32/S3/Leon Cupra OEM brakes with braides line and proper pads are the way to go. It will be a bargain and a good set up which would do the job. But the more efficient solutions are much more expensive and are called BREMBO, AP RACING, ALCON, VWR, MOV-IT, STOPTECH, TAROX, ETC...
-
Agreed, if they're working for you, you've got to decide if the extra 1500euros is worth the weight saving and extra braking power?
I had the Alcons on my Golf and I wouldn't have chosen anything different, they were perfect, small & light enough at 343x32 and with odd sized pistons to be easy to use on the road and powerful enough to use on track.
But a big brake kit (BBK) isn't the answer for everyone, I have a Clio RS200 now and it has 312mm solid discs and 4-pot Brembos, all I've done is swap the pads for Pagids and the fluid for RBF600 - they are absolutely fantastic, work all day on track and it is very cheap to replace parts, so a BBK for this car would be insane.
In an ideal world, I think the best compromise would be a custom radial mount 4-pot caliper on an R32 disc. Power combined with cheap spares.
-
Errrr - isnt that what the NQSBBK was all about....
I got a NQSBBK with S3 Hubs and 315mm two piece AP discs to be saving nearly 60kg over stock, thats not just good for unsprung weight thats good for 1/4 mile times!!!!!!!
One of the down sides of two piece discs (There aren't many) is the fact that if you wanted to build a perfect Gyro then all the weight would be at the periphery, this aids another gryo term called rigidity which in effect helps the disc store more energy for longer. Gyro's dont like to change direction by nature, they are also suffering from precession which means that any force acting on a spinning Gyro acts 90 degrees further along the gyro (in essence a force left to right on a gyro causes an up down movement) this is why on F1 cars and the 996/997 GT3RS move the calipers around to the 10.30/01:30 position instead of the more common 3 oclock/9 oclock as it aids turn in.
I'd never reccomend the B5 RS4 setup for weight purposes but its a big powerful setup with MASSIVE pad choice, it also works for those with Works or BBS LM style rimmage
-
.
Although I'm a big fanboy of VWR I would favour the AP's, not because of performance but because the VWR's are 1mm too big (416mm) to fit under OZ Alleggerita 18's and OZ don't do a 19". A very lightweight wheel and well proven aftermarket brake kit is in my opinion the best package as a whole.
Unless you do a serious amount of trackdays or actual racing, I can't help thinking that too many folks are OTT on their choice of big brake kits for the 2.0T FSI platform whether off the shelf, homemade, or expertly made up like DaveB's etc.
-
I would agree with that, I really liked the 343mm Alcons on TD's GTI. I would consider that pretty much optimal, the problem as ever is the fact that they make you touch your toes and go in dry when its disc replacement time at Alcon & Brembo...AP less so.
Do you always need 100% of what a 2000GBP BBK will give you or will you be ok with 85% of that ultimate performace for 800GBP how much of that missing 15% can be made up by the less unsprung weight??
If I was running a NQSBBK I'd have 3 Pairs of discs - 1 running the DS2500 for on the road, I'd then have for track or enroute to track two J hooked or straight grooved discs both having been bedded with a carbon metallic pad of choice and have one as a spare in case you toast a pair. Never the twain shall meet.
That arrangement would still be less cost than a BBK and you would be driving around the outside of the guy with the vibrating VWR brakes cos he's just put the DS3000 in on 700 pound discs that have been bedded with DS2500.
It also breaks my heart to see KW V3's with S3/R32 brakes hanging off them......
-
Yup, 400+VAT for rotors, and that's with my discount. That said, they lasted 20k and that was with hard pads and lots of trackdays.
Pads £160-200, seal kit £22, bobbin & bolt kit £100.
In fact, I still have a spare set of rotors and 2 sets of pads....
-
Reading through some of the posts here, but not all, I can only add a summarised opinion really.
For me, AP are the best bang for buck brakes out there, full stop. I went round the Ring in a 500+ bhp BMW 335i modded by a guy who is SO, SO serious about mods that he was actually used by BMW to test their own 'Performance' brake upgrade on the Ring (he destroyed them, cracking in a piston on the first day.) He has AP's on his car and they worked perfectly on lap after hot lap at the Ring. Why pay more, for less?
I can't comment on VWR, so no idea what their product is, but I can't see how it could be much better (if at all) and unless it's cheaper, it would be a no brainer for me.
In respect of my own Stage 2+ car I have R32 brakes that cost me 300 bells. They stop the car easily and don't cook or fade on fast road driving so that's good enough. They are bloody heavy though and I expect the Ring would see them fading in less than a couple of laps. If I tracked more than once or twice a blue moon, I'd have AP's.
Matt
-
It also breaks my heart to see KW V3's with S3/R32 brakes hanging off them......
.... :surprised: But it didn't break your heart to sell me some S3/R32 brakes to hang off my KW V3 rears! :confused:
I'm very happy with the overall braking balance they have given though.
-
Trouble is, 360mm 6-pot APs are faaar too overkill for a Golf.
-
Trouble is, 360mm 6-pot APs are faaar too overkill for a Golf.
....Agreed and why I took AP's advice and got their 4-pot version.
-
It also breaks my heart to see KW V3's with S3/R32 brakes hanging off them......
.... :surprised: But it didn't break your heart to sell me some S3/R32 brakes to hang off my KW V3 rears! :confused:
I'm very happy with the overall braking balance they have given though.
Im sure you're fully aware that I was referring to the fronts Robin, rears will be an extra 3-4kg per axle, maybe I should have clarified.
I agree really about the AP 360mm kits , I did some 362mm AP fronts for Steve P and for a 500BHP Turbo R32 - which considering the extra weight and available corner entry speeds of the R32 then they probably make sense
-
It also breaks my heart to see KW V3's with S3/R32 brakes hanging off them......
.... :surprised: But it didn't break your heart to sell me some S3/R32 brakes to hang off my KW V3 rears! :confused:
I'm very happy with the overall braking balance they have given though.
Im sure you're fully aware that I was referring to the fronts Robin, rears will be an extra 3-4kg per axle, maybe I should have clarified.
....I hoped you were referring to the fronts but it wasn't clear and so I thought it best to mention :drinking:
-
All I know is cars with the Vwr brakes set some of the best lap times last season and that was from independent race teams so they must be good at stopping :smiley: but it's like anything you have to drive a car with the brakes you want on before you hand over your ££££ and make your own mind up.
-
Good news!!!! :jumping:
Matt just emailed me that Pagid RS29 fit VWR brakes!!!! :happy2:
-
I would either skim or emery your discs prior to fitting the RS's if you have been running DS2500, they interact with the disc in a very different way.
You may end up with some vibration first time out.
When we spoke you were Monaco/Nice area....I'd fit the RS29's and leave them in
-
And drive your car into the ground to bed them in (hopefully). :innocent:
-
Just requested some prices for the RS4 B5 brakes from a dealer and they seem lower than expected. He quoted me 200 Euro/caliper and 100 Euro/disc. Disc would lead to 600 Euro for the calipers and discs (remember we're talking about new parts). What do you guys think ? Do the calipers come red by default ? From what I know, the RS4 360mm discs come in 2 versions : a 1 piece plain version wich is probably heavier (I suppose he gave me the price for this one) and a 2-oiece drilled version wich should be more expensive from audi quattr. Can anyone confirm there are 2 versions as I said ? If yes, how much can the 2-piece version cost ?
-
Ok, the codes I've got are :
8E0 615 123 B - left caliper > 200 Euro
8E0 615 124 B - right caliper > 200 Euro
8E0 615 301 T > the plain discs > 100 Euro/pc
Anyone knows if these are the correct codes ? What about the codes for the drilled 2-piece discs from Audi Quattro (price, code, weight as compared to normal ones)? Do the calipers come in red colour (doesn't say in Etka)?
-
No idea!
-
Just requested some prices for the RS4 B5 brakes from a dealer and they seem lower than expected. He quoted me 200 Euro/caliper and 100 Euro/disc. Disc would lead to 600 Euro for the calipers and discs (remember we're talking about new parts). What do you guys think ? Do the calipers come red by default ? From what I know, the RS4 360mm discs come in 2 versions : a 1 piece plain version wich is probably heavier (I suppose he gave me the price for this one) and a 2-oiece drilled version wich should be more expensive from audi quattr. Can anyone confirm there are 2 versions as I said ? If yes, how much can the 2-piece version cost ?
Sounds great, my discs are very light considering the size, lighter than the smaller R32 set up. My discs have the lighter alu bell, but they are not drilled like you suggest. I remember correctly the cost to replace my discs is 300 uk pounds, so it sounds like you have found a great price, and you will be sending me some discs for Christmas. :laugh:
-
Think you'll find those discs are for the S4 and not the RS4, only 40mm difference but you wouldn't want it taking off the end of your todger.
Best price I can find for RS4 discs are 380, which when you compare to the likes of AP/Brembo/Alcon is pretty good for what you're getting.
I have some B5 RS4 calipers carriers in OEM red if you fancy some, wouldn't want much for them PM me if theres a glimmer of interest
-
Some news.
So, know I'm made my mind, I'll go for VWR brakes kit as they can provide them in Silver Grey without any logo and moreover with Yellow Pagid RS29 pads!! :jumping:
By the way I find out something about Brakes kit weight.
I will have to check this out when my Brembo kit will be removed. But it seems that unlike VWR, brakes kit brands communicate calipers and rotors weight without pads, bracket, and bell.
For exemple:
VWR 352x32 6 pistons Brakes
· caliper 3.5kg
· Bracket 0.5kg
· 2 pads 1.0kg
· Disc with bell 7.5kg (web site says 7.04 may be a mistake somewhere)
Total about 12/12.5kg
Brembo 355x32 4 pistons Brakes
· caliper 4.35kg
· Bracket ? but it should be about 0.5kg
· 2 pads ? but it should be about 1.0kg
· Disc without bell 6kg it should be about 6.5/6.75 kg with bell
Total about 12.25/12.5kg
AP Racing 355x32 6 pistons Brakes
· caliper 2.8kg
· Bracket ? but it should be about 0.5kg
· 2 pads ? but it should be about 1.0kg
· Disc without bell about 6kg it should be about 6.5/6.75 kg with bell
Total about 10.8/11.05kg
By the way my Brembo 328x28 4 pistons brakes kit shouldn't weight 8.45kg as I thought but:
· caliper 3.45kg
· Bracket ? but it should be about 0.5kg
· 2 pads ? but it should be about 1.0kg
· Disc without bell 5.1kg it should be about 5.6/6.85 kg with bell
Total about 10.55/10.8kg
-
^^^^
If anyone needs to know, my AP Racing 4-pots weigh a total (everything) of 10.6kg each. Weighed at AP HQ in Coventry and witnessed by myself.
Oem VW Mk5 GTI front brakes (everything) weigh 15.1kg each. Also weighed at AP.
-
you will be very happy with them mate they are great brakes :smiley:
-
@Redrobin,
What size are your brakes?
Are they 328x28?
The Calipers are 2,6kg
Rotors 5 kg
According to my estimation they should be 9,6/9,85kg
So I under estimated from about 1kg the other brakes kit.
Brembo 355x32 4 pistons Brakes
Total about 13.2kg
AP Racing 355x32 6 pistons Brakes
Total about 12kg
Brembo 328x28 4 pistons brakes:
Total about 11.5 kg
That mean that for the same size, they all weight +/-1Kg the same.
@MAT ED30
I hope so because I'm not 100% happy with brakes until now.
-
@Redrobin,
What size are your brakes?
Are they 328x28?
The Calipers are 2,6kg
Rotors 5 kg
According to my estimation they should be 9,6/9,85kg
So I under estimated from about 1kg the other brakes kit.
....330x28 IIRC but total weight is definitely 10.5kg.
-
i was looking at different bbk sets for my car only to fill the 19" alloys i have on.I looked at vwr kits etc but i couldn't justify paying £300 for a set of discs for what i wanted so i went for the r32 set up,as mentioned they are heavy but a whole lot better than my standard 288mm discs up front :signLOL:
-
Open grilles, or a holesaw on the normal ones with a venturi.
Run through the inside of the engine bay (zip tying to the liner) and exit the arch liner opposite the forward wishbone leg
Route over the wishbone.
Remove or modify the splash shield, point duct to centre of disc, not the friction face.
Use joints at the the arch liner, as a 90degree bend will rub through a pipe. Also, use metal zip ties near heat sources.
I'd also recommend anti-crush sprung neoprene hose.
Tony, any pictures of this?
-
No, sorry. I'll find some of others though so you can see the idea.
-
Another noob question. What should be the minimum thickness at wich a 30mm disc can be used ? (or at what thickness it must be replaced ?)
-
Depends on the airgap of the disc, for example I have some rather chunky 34mm discs in front of me from an RS6 the min thickness stamped on the edge of the disc btw is 32.4mm.
The thinner the disc generally the less material you have to use up (but not always) two piece rotors from Brembo and AP nearly always have new thickness less 1mm as min thickness.
If the discs are newish it will be stamped on the side (This is also a good way to tell if you're discs originate from within the EU)
-
I have OEM R32 discs 345x30mm. I hope I will be safe to 28mm (haven't measured them yet but have 1 Nurburgring and 2 Hungaroring track days with them > something like 400-500 miles of track use)
PS : Dave, I've sent you a mail for a friend of mine who's in a need for a good brake system for his S3 8L 1.8T !
-
with the r32 front set up is 345mm the biggest disc you can fit
-
Here's a kit that looks pretty promising > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audi-S3-17-Race-Rally-Spec-6-Pot-Brake-Kit-CMB0497-/140351021769?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item20ad92a2c9 . What do you know about compbrake manufacturer ? 330x32mm is a pretty thick disc and fits under 17". Don't know if it's 5x100 or 5x112 (they don't say wich S3) but the price seems good to me !
These are for mk5 platform > http://www.compbrake.co.uk/cars/vw/golf-mk5/cat_284.html
-
Here's a kit that looks pretty promising > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audi-S3-17-Race-Rally-Spec-6-Pot-Brake-Kit-CMB0497-/140351021769?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item20ad92a2c9 . What do you know about compbrake manufacturer ? 330x32mm is a pretty thick disc and fits under 17". Don't know if it's 5x100 or 5x112 (they don't say wich S3) but the price seems good to me !
These are for mk5 platform > http://www.compbrake.co.uk/cars/vw/golf-mk5/cat_284.html
The picture shows a disc with 4x??? fitment :confused:
-
Yes, if we look at the pic it's definately the old S3 but I see often over the ebay pics representing something else so I just wanted to be sure. In the meantime, I've checked on compbrake page and the kits are 850 pounds there. I wonder how good could they be, knowing the big names are twice that ! Compbrake has also an unusual disc thickness of 32mm for only 330 in diameter. Most others are 330x28mm.
-
Does anyone know for sure if the s3 bbk kits will fit a gti that has s3 knuckles? Can't seem to get an answer out of any of the companies, and not finding any cars who have done this.
Would the Brembo TT 355x32 kit also work with s3 knuckles? Brembo doesn't really have any s3 kits in sizes I am interested in.
-
Yes, if you have S3 spindles you even NEED the S3 kit.
Sadly I don't know if TT kits fit.
-
Yes, if you have S3 spindles you even NEED the S3 kit.
Sadly I don't know if TT kits fit.
Yeah, I have passat spindles with the 328mm 2-piece brembo kit now. Caliper carriers needed to be modified to fit. Want to swap to a kit that doesn't require that. Annoying how hard it is to come by any reliable info for this.
-
Does anyone know for sure if the s3 bbk kits will fit a gti that has s3 knuckles? Can't seem to get an answer out of any of the companies, and not finding any cars who have done this.
Would the Brembo TT 355x32 kit also work with s3 knuckles? Brembo doesn't really have any s3 kits in sizes I am interested in.
TT and GTI swaps parts but S3 is another adaptor as it's 15mm wider where the carriers sits on the hub. :smiley:
-
Does anyone know for sure if the s3 bbk kits will fit a gti that has s3 knuckles? Can't seem to get an answer out of any of the companies, and not finding any cars who have done this.
Would the Brembo TT 355x32 kit also work with s3 knuckles? Brembo doesn't really have any s3 kits in sizes I am interested in.
TT and GTI swaps parts but S3 is another adaptor as it's 15mm wider where the carriers sits on the hub. :smiley:
So basically as long as I have the passat (s3 is the exact same part number I believe: 3C0 407 253 F) knuckle the tt brembo bbk should work without needing any modification to the carrier? Just want to make sure before ordering. Could be an expensive mistake. The s3 and tt knuckles are both aluminum, but the tt will widen track width, so I don't know if that will cause any issues.
I plan on selling the brembo kit I have now to a friend and buying either the 6 pot or 4 pot TT kit.
-
S3/Cupra hub thickness
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2FS3-brakeflange-netversion.jpg&hash=270e8d7262b3df801aba518f3ce6be67268f23de)
TT/GTI hub Thickness
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2FTT-brakeflange-netversion.jpg&hash=3abbd2b432615908a9bafd2784ac1b8c35bb6953)
-
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,41189.0.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,41189.0.html)
Further reading on the Hub subject :happy2:
-
If the carrier sits on the outer face of the hub should a BBK not be suitable for S3/GTI/TT ? Like the S3/r32 setup?
If it sits on the inner face of the hub then there will obviously be issues with different lug thickness.
I have a New BBK im thinking of selling and its designed for the S3 hubs/spindles. The carriers mount on the outer faces on the hub. Should this not be suitable for S3 and GTI?
-
If the carrier sits on the outer face of the hub should a BBK not be suitable for S3/GTI/TT ? Like the S3/r32 setup?
If it sits on the inner face of the hub then there will obviously be issues with different lug thickness.
I have a New BBK im thinking of selling and its designed for the S3 hubs/spindles. The carriers mount on the outer faces on the hub. Should this not be suitable for S3 and GTI?
Yes Jon, the outer side is the same. Trouble is most BBK has larger pistons/pistons on the outside of the disc and are therefore pushed further under the car to allow for rims to stay inside fenders :wink:
-
Ah gotcha :happy2:
So they are usually mounted on the rear of the hub to allow clearance between the calipers and the wheels.
And a kit that mounts on the front of the hub should be suitable for s3+GTI+TT
-
The Alcon BBk that i have fits on every type of hub because the carrier sits between the hub and disc. The rotor has 32mm thickness, it fits behind OEM R wheels with only 1mm of spacer.
I must say i am really impressed with this bbk
-
The 330mm XYZ kit that I have also fits on every type of hub as this also fits on the Disc side of the hub. The rotors are also 32mm thick and they fit behind OEM Cupra TFSI wheels with no spacer and a full 6mm clearance.
-
Yeah def if mounted on the outer face of the hub then they will.fit all.hubs....but the steel.gti hubs.have.a.couple.of lugs.sticking out that hopefully is taken.into account.
-
If I could give any advice, it would be to steer clear of VW Racing. They have been absolutely hopeless in my experience.
....Ah well, that hasn't been my experience of them over a period of several years.
-
piston area
1. stock front:
O2 RS/Golf/GTI - Ate FN3 54 mm: 2290 mm²
S3/R32/R - FNRG 57 mm: 2552 mm²
2. aftermarket - fits properly:
AP Racing 6-pot CP7068 (355x32 ) > 2350 mm² (special version of CP7040-caliper for Golf V/VI, Scirocco etc.)
AP Racing 6-pot CP5570: 27.0 + 31.8 + 38.1 > 573 mm² + 794 mm² + 1140 mm² = 2507 mm²
Audi TT-RS: 36 + 40 mm > 1018 mm² + 1257 mm² = 2275 mm²
Boxster: 40 mm + 36 mm > 1257 mm² + 1018 mm² = 2275 mm²
Boxster S: 40 mm + 36 mm > 1257 mm² + 1018 mm² = 2275 mm²
993 Turbo: 36 + 44 mm > 1018 mm² + + 1520 mm² = 2538 mm²
Brembo GT 'A-caliper': 40 mm + 36 mm > 1257 mm² + 1018 mm² = 2275 mm²
Stoptech ST-40: 38 mm + 34 mm > 908 mm² + 1134 mm² = 2043 mm²
Wilwood FNSL6R: 41.1 + 28.4 + 28.4 mm > 1330 + 636 + 636 mm² = 2602 mm²
Mov'it:
4s2 - 36 / 44 = 2538 mm²
4s3 - 36 / 44 = 2538 mm² (u.a. als VAG-Kit mit 322x32er Scheibe, geht unter 17")
4m6 - 36 / 44 = 2538 mm²
6m1 - 28 / 32 / 38 = 2554 mm²
3. aftermarket - mismatch:
Forge: 707 mm² + 1046 mm² + 1164 mm² = 2917 mm²
Mov'it:
4s4: 40 / 44 = 2777 mm²
4s5: 38 / 46 = 2796 mm²
6m3: 30 / 34 / 38 = 2749 mm²
Brembo 8-pot RS4/R8/Gallardo: 28 + 28 + 32 + 32 mm > 2840 mm²
Brembo 8-pot RS6 : 4192 mm² (!!!)
996 Turbo: 40 + 44 mm > 1257 mm² + 1520 mm² = 2777 mm²
Q7/Touareg/Cayenne (there are 3):
34/36/38 mm : 907.920 + 1017.876 + 1134.115 = ~ 3060 mm²
32/36/38 mm : 804.248 + 1017.876 + 1134.115 = ~ 2956 mm²
30/34/38 mm : 706.858 + 907.920 + 1134.115 = ~ 2749 mm²
4. master cylinder:
- 22,22 mm > 388 mm² (some Golf V, some Scirocco etc.)
- 23,81 mm > 445 mm² (Golf V R32, Golf V GTI, Golf VI GTI, Golf R, Scirocco 2.0T + R)
- 25,40 mm > 507 mm² (RS3 + TT-RS)
5. rear:
GTI/RS: C38 > 1134 mm²
S3/R32/R: C41 > 1320 mm²
Movit 4m1: 28 / 30 = 1323 mm²
Movit 4m2: 28 / 30 = 1323 mm²
Pi * Radius² = area
-
Im on the road to sorting my Ed 30 out. I had Tarox 6 pots on my old APR stage 3 MKIV and these worked well on track. I also looking around and was considering the road Tarox 10 pot kit or VWR kit or AICON
I also am ordering .KW Csports and anti lift kit before I get diff and APR STAGE 2. Any one using Tarox kit.
-
Tarox fail in salty and wet weather conditions. Anodized finish + no dust seals.
If you drive it daily get painted and properly sealed ones.
-
Im on the road to sorting my Ed 30 out. I had Tarox 6 pots on my old APR stage 3 MKIV and these worked well on track. I also looking around and was considering the road Tarox 10 pot kit or VWR kit or AICON
I also am ordering .KW Csports and anti lift kit before I get diff and APR STAGE 2. Any one using Tarox kit.
I had Tarox and as The bruce writes they are not ideal foruse on the road, and my set was extremely noisy so i went for a set of 4 pots with 370mm discs from AKS Tuning, they are miles better than the Tarox 10 pots GT34 with 330mm discs i had before :happy2:
-
The Finnish on my old 6pots went off on the calipers but the pedal feel was great. The discs and bells were very expensive to replace. I may consider the VWR kit and others before deciding.
Tarox kit certainly performed well in my experience and they got a real pounding.
My track orientaated .MK2 16V does what I need for track which is somewhat holding me back on what i do to the Ed30.Icertainly will sort out suspension and brakes if nothing else.
Has anyone got experience of the anti lift kit? Will it stop axletramp?
-
I ran Alcons, I believe APR have them on their Golf R and Regal ran them on their MK5 the year it won the VW Cup.
In 2 years the discs were half worn and I'd used 4 sets of pads. Say 20k and track days into double figures.
Seals are internal, rather than Brembo style, so don't perish. Pads are generic Alcon shape, so vast range of options and about £120-200 depending on type. Clever anti rattle plates and staggered pistons meant they had very good road manners. I honestly couldn't fault them, and I'd buy them again every time.
-
I may well have a set of VWR brakes and a set of AP 330mm brakes both coming up for sale in the next week or so if interested?
-
I may well have a set of VWR brakes and a set of AP 330mm brakes both coming up for sale in the next week or so if interested?
GI've me a realPM if you do
Ian
-
Can any body confirm what is needed to fit VWR brakes to Cupra alloy hubs/carriers is it just 20mm longer bolts than what normally comes with the kit :happy2: