MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: muckipup on December 30, 2010, 05:38:07 pm
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I hate to say it given all the positive experiences in more recent days but my HPFP with Autotech internals has failed. I went to check the oil level today and the dipstick stank of petrol instead of oil. For those that understand the mechanics of the pump, failures are not just about the pump piston seizing or warping or the increased spring pressure stressing the cam lobe / cam follower but rather the dual-diameter design to the piston and the possibility that fuel may get behind the wider area of the piston, sit in the cavity of the narrower part of the piston and then forcing fuel against the stock seals of the HPFP on the return stroke. When the seals fail, fuel gets into the engine.
I was a little suspicious that something wasn't quite right and would give the oil a sniff from time to time but there was never any evidence of a problem. My previous remap did not request the full fuel rail pressure across the revs that the pump could produce. A more recent remap to compliment a turbo upgrade requested the full 130bar and I believe this was too much for those seals :sad1:
Just to be clear, this post is not intended to be any kind of APR vs. Autotech / KMD / etc rant. It is simply to point out that failures can still happen and to recommend the occasional sniff of your dipstick (ahem :grin: )
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Bummer. So new pump on the way and an oil change?
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thredders mate. APR pump it is then, and another setback for the LSD/sachs id imagine
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would a new seal not suffice?? :scared:
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Bummer. So new pump on the way and an oil change?
You got it Ian...and £££s for a APR pump! :surprised:
Luckily, I am only 10 mins from JKM so I topped up with some fresh oil and tip-toed down there. Unfortunately they have been selling a lot of these and didn't have any in stock so I left the car with them as I'm not taking any chances with that one!
Sy - you are right, the first thing I thought was that I will have to get the credit card out for this one and the Quaife will have to wait a little longer
TBH Danish, you are probably right but I was not aware that the seals could be got separately from the OEM pump. In any case, I'd rather not take a chance. I believe APR uprate the seals as part of their rebuild
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So how much is the APR HPFP going to set you back? Also, are there any other companies that make HPFP?
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not cheap, i know that
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So how much is the APR HPFP going to set you back? Also, are there any other companies that make HPFP?
http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/tfsipumps.htm
763£ for the APR pump all new.
KMD and AWE makes pump internals too, but APR is the only company to assemble and test the pump before they ship it to costumers.
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So did the pump or the seal fail?
If its the seal then its not really caused by the autotech internals as such, more the actual map requesting the higher pressure. Personally I woukd replace the seal and its job done, no need to spend an extra £700+ on a new pump!
I have some spare pump components if there is anything specific that you need. :smiley:
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have you seen many seals failing?
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What sort of damage could this have led to if you didn't spot it? As your average joe bloggs doesn't sniff there dipstick
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Never seen any fail, must be quite rare and possibly an installation problem. Did come accross a seal where a customer had tried a DIY fitting but didnt lubricate the main seal on the 18mm retaining nut and it had torn as he tightened it in, easy fix though as its a standard size o-ring.
Internal kits are simple to fit but the slightest mistake can be costly so we advise that its left to someone with experience to strip and re-fit.
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What sort of damage could this have led to if you didn't spot it? As your average joe bloggs doesn't sniff there dipstick
Fuel getting into oil and vice versa.
Oil in fuel can cause poor combustion, fuel in oil can cause oil to thin and not protect the engine sufficiently, oil level can get too high.
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I read an article recently which said that the fuel pump is proving to be a failing component on older cars. Did you have a reasonable mileage on the car?
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Can anybody confirm that the seals in the fuel pump can actually be replaced and if so, part numbers would be handy! :smiley:
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Maybe this is the one?
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs4.postimage.org%2F4t5b0ku3f%2FFuel_Pump.jpg&hash=88f5f3ab34c885fd4fa7ba8d6af108c6c8b97c9f)
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I read an article recently which said that the fuel pump is proving to be a failing component on older cars. Did you have a reasonable mileage on the car?
Yes, I am at 56k miles. I should say that I have been running the Autotech internals for about 20k miles without any problem - definitely no or, at least, undetectable fuel smell in the oil during this time. The difference is the rail pressure in the past 2 weeks - it is now consistent and high which it was not before (I had a minor running issue with a previous 'developmental' map I was running which often requested lower than stock rail pressure).
I haven't had confirmation of what has gone wrong but it almost certain that it is the OEM pump seal that has failed rather than the Autotech internals per se. I should also say that I fitted these internals myself - although I was meticulous and have a garage full of the proper gear, I don't claim to be an expert. So, in short, I am in no way finger pointing. However, I think it is important to consider that the design of the Autotech internals might cause an issue indirectly if the seal was weak. I found this on JKM's website which probably explains it better than I could here: http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/Misc/Misc_Performance_pictures/APR%20Pump/tech/pumpimages/Visio3_big.jpg (http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/Misc/Misc_Performance_pictures/APR%20Pump/tech/pumpimages/Visio3_big.jpg)
Thanks PDT for explaining what petrol in the engine oil does (i.e. you definitely don't want it!) and for keeping my little problem in perspective of the many who haven't had an issue....I still recommend sniffing your dipstick though :laugh:
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I read an article recently which said that the fuel pump is proving to be a failing component on older cars. Did you have a reasonable mileage on the car?
is this with reference to the OEM pump or the uprated autotech?
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I read an article recently which said that the fuel pump is proving to be a failing component on older cars. Did you have a reasonable mileage on the car?
i read something similar, looking into it further it seemed the issue wasnt the fuel pump as such but the cam follower wear issue that subsequently can take the fuel pump out at the same time.
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http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/Misc/Misc_Performance_pictures/APR%20Pump/tech/pumpimages/Visio3_big.jpg (http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/Misc/Misc_Performance_pictures/APR%20Pump/tech/pumpimages/Visio3_big.jpg)
looking at this it seems that the common failure then is the seal and not the autotech internals. Maybe a good idea for guys with the pump to just replace the seal periodically say every 24km or something just to be on the safe side
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http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/Misc/Misc_Performance_pictures/APR%20Pump/tech/pumpimages/Visio3_big.jpg (http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/Misc/Misc_Performance_pictures/APR%20Pump/tech/pumpimages/Visio3_big.jpg)
looking at this it seems that the common failure then is the seal and not the autotech internals. Maybe a good idea for guys with the pump to just replace the seal periodically say every 24km or something just to be on the safe side
That is my understanding too although I think a lot of folks think about the 30% (I think) increase spring pressure on the cam follower / cam lobe and the mechanical failure that could occur rather than the OEM seals that remain after Autotech internals are fitted. I believe APR do non-OEM seals as part of the build.
However, even taking the pump apart to replace the seal introduces a risk of error if there is no evidence of failure / smelly dipsticks beforehand
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I don't think there are any replaceable parts on the pump (With VAG part numbers). New pumps are around £130 so I guess that's the cheapest option.
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I don't think there are any replaceable parts on the pump (With VAG part numbers). New pumps are around £130 so I guess that's the cheapest option.
I agree with you there Stu. Perhaps fitting the old internals to a new HPFP would do it and still half the cost of an APR. If it failed again then the economics of the APR pump starts looking less atrocious. In my case, my car is stranded at JKM and I'd have to turn up at JKM with some plastic sheeting, a socket set and a brass neck to refit this in the road outside (as JKM don't do this service any more). I'll dig deep and go with an APR pump...when it comes in :ashamed:
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Don't get me wrong I think the APR pump is the better solution.
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Don't get me wrong I think the APR pump is the better solution.
I'd agree there :wink:
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smugness is a cruel ally to have carl :grin:
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smugness is a cruel ally to have carl :grin:
:signLOL:
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Sorry to hear about this problem muckipup.
I would like to understand two things:
1. This link from JKM you posted (http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/Misc/Misc_Performance_pictures/APR%20Pump/tech/pumpimages/Visio3_big.jpg) seems to imply that stepped pistons will put more pressure on the the fuel pump seals than a non stepped piston. Is this correct?
2. I would like some more information on how often the seals have been failing and whether APR does upgrade the seal or use the OEM one. I would like to know if I should change my seal after x number of miles?
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You cannot change the seal AFAIK, it certainly isn't listed by VAG, maybe you could source it 3rd party or from Hitachi but I wouldn't hold out much hope.
APR do change the seal.
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Just out of interest Dave, have you been changing your follower?
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You cannot change the seal AFAIK, it certainly isn't listed by VAG, maybe you could source it 3rd party or from Hitachi but I wouldn't hold out much hope.
APR do change the seal.
Bummer if the seals are hard to come by :(
I know APR change the seal but I was wondering they upgrade it somehow or if the just replace it with another OEM one.
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Sorry to hear about this problem muckipup.
I would like to understand two things:
1. This link from JKM you posted (http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/Misc/Misc_Performance_pictures/APR%20Pump/tech/pumpimages/Visio3_big.jpg) seems to imply that stepped pistons will put more pressure on the the fuel pump seals than a non stepped piston. Is this correct?
2. I would like some more information on how often the seals have been failing and weather APR does upgrade the seal or use the OEM one. I would like to know if I should change my seal after x number of miles?
Those are very fair questions KRL. There are a few more links to HPFPs, I only picked one to highlight a hypothesis. It is only a hypothesis which kinda makes sense to me in a non-expert way. I can't speak for JKM and I don't think they will speak for themselves (in fairness, I think they voted with their feet as this is a sensitive issue as you know)
Again, I don't know of the failure rate of OEM seals, the back/return pressure of after-market internals running higher rail pressures and I can't speak for APRs engineering methods. I reckon it would need some kind of formal study rather than a forum to be accurate on that one. All I can do is report my experience in a non-judgemental way and say 'sniff the dipstick' again and again
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Jeeeziz, just read my own post back and was knocked sideways about what a non-commital pussy I was :ashamed: I'll get another large gin and be gone. Peace be with you :drinking:
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Did you do any logs of your car while the problem was active? Just wondering if this can be spotted through logging - for example maybe the rail pressure would not be able to meet requested if fuel is leaking through the seal.
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No the only way to see the problem is if fuel gets in the oil.
The problem is when the piston is on the return stroke. So it won't show a drop in rail pressure.
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Don't know if this is true but have been told Pump seal failure is what killed the engine on Revo's K1
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i wasnt aware of a failure on REVOs K1 demo car????
In all fairness they would always blame a hardware fault and not software
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There is NEVER a fault with the software. Its always a boost leak :laugh:
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I wander how this was kept out of the forums for so long. Are they running the K1 with a new engine now or have they handed it off to some one else
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I have herd of a couple of these now, Revo's K1 been one of them and an S3 apperently so an APR pump might be on the cards, also headgaskets seem to have gone on a couple of cars all needing new engines :scared:
Talking to INA the headgasket is above industry standards and its the bolts which look a bit weak so maybe ARP bolts might not be a bad idea for longevity. I think there around 200 USD shipped to anywhere in the UK.
Maybe stage 2+ is starting to catch up on a couple of engines.
Off to go smell the dipstick now.
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in all fairness, Al (DJhorice) has been saying this for a while and also knows of a few engines going t!ts up
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Yep, I have, and one of the reasons my new car is still standard for now.
I am taking my fuel pump with KMD internals to Texas in the near future to be APR upgraded though as may well be tempted to up power a little this year once I have got past any teething issues on the car. I would also be looking to check strength of head gasket and bolts too if I go back to S2+.
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I think I will start doing some oil analysis every other oil change to catch problems like this. A quick google found this company:
http://www.theoillab.co.uk/
A report costs £26.95. Think this could be well worth it in the long run if you weigh it up against the costs of potential failure.
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thats a good idea.
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I think I will start doing some oil analysis every other oil change to catch problems like this. A quick google found this company:
http://www.theoillab.co.uk/
A report costs £26.95. Think this could be well worth it in the long run if you weigh it up against the costs of potential failure.
We use a similar thing at work - Spectrographic oil analysis
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We use a similar thing at work - Spectrographic oil analysis
I smell a Group Buy :party: :party:
:evilgrin:
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We use a similar thing at work - Spectrographic oil analysis
I smell a Group Buy :party: :party:
:evilgrin:
You wouldn't like their prices - http://www.qinetiq.com/home.html :fighting:
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Sent an email to a company last night with regard to oil testing and got a reply today. The sampling kit would cost £25 which includes a paid for jiffy bag to send the sample back in and they will get back to you withing 48 hours with the test results.
Here are some details:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=1RsaMk7FWLWpFfEJCK-YMxzgpfiWGx44xr8ghn4RMtdjgDZn4u0RuUDdlDNdJ&hl=en_GB
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Remeber that oil analysis will tell you whats in the oil but not how it got there. Fuel can enter the lubrication system through many conditions/faults.
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The oil analysis is very good but for the everyday car user would work out quite expensive to do routinely. Sure it would only tell you that there is fuel in the oil but in a large quantity and if you were running a high flow pump then it'd certainly point you in the right direction.
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At £25 a pop and if you only do it once a year I don't think it is much expense compared to the potential savings you could make by spotting a problem early.
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I think I will start doing some oil analysis every other oil change to catch problems like this. A quick google found this company:
http://www.theoillab.co.uk/
A report costs £26.95. Think this could be well worth it in the long run if you weigh it up against the costs of potential failure.
We use a similar thing at work - Spectrographic oil analysis
No spectrographic analysis needed for me - I just had a routine sniff at the dipstick knowing that this was a telltale sign of failure...and it was absolutely stinking of petrol.
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Just out of interest Dave, have you been changing your follower?
Absolutely Tim. Every 10k and everything was fine. However, my issue was about failure of a seal within the pump rather than the more common / more historic complaints of piston seizure or cam follower wear or cam damage.
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I don't think it's a failure of the seal per se.
My understanding is that due to the stepped design in the piston fuel gets in behind that step (due the the lubrication using fuel). Once the piston is on it's return stroke it is trying to compress the fuel. Liquid can't be compressed so the fuel has to go somewhere and it will inevitably choose the path of least resistance. Which in this case is past the seal.
So rather than the seal failing. It is being asked to do something it wasn't designed to, due to the step in the piston. So if Autotech re-designed the piston to be one diameter it's length then, in theory, this would solve the problem.
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I don't think it's a failure of the seal per se.
My understanding is that due to the stepped design in the piston fuel gets in behind that step (due the the lubrication using fuel). Once the piston is on it's return stroke it is trying to compress the fuel. Liquid can't be compressed so the fuel has to go somewhere and it will inevitably choose the path of least resistance. Which in this case is past the seal.
So rather than the seal failing. It is being asked to do something it wasn't designed to, due to the step in the piston. So if Autotech re-designed the piston to be one diameter it's length then, in theory, this would solve the problem.
So why hasn't mine over the 65k i have used it put petrol in my oil?
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Dunno if i knew that i'd be making millions selling Internals :laugh:
Seriously though you may just be lucky in that the fuel isn't getting in behind the step in the piston. I was fine for 53k miles :smiley:
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Dunno if i knew that i'd be making millions selling Internals :laugh:
Seriously though you may just be lucky in that the fuel isn't getting in behind the step in the piston. I was fine for 53k miles :smiley:
You just have to be careful what you read out on the net, especially when you have competition with different pumps etc :wink: as far as i remember comparing to the OEM one the AT is just a slightly bigger piston.
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No the Autotech is Stepped whereas the OEM & APR are not.
Can't find a pic of the piston on its own but you can see in this pic the difference in shaft diameter at either end
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bshspeedshop.com%2Fstore%2Fimages%2FP%2FAutotech%2520FP.jpg&hash=bc330f52aeb579447a6ddd925a8e0839d0a72acb)
Whereas the APR one
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goapr.com%2Fincludes%2Fimg%2Fproducts%2Ffuel_pump_parts.jpg&hash=14bf9f58b076f77ddea5c0300c196de0704e27ee)
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On the subject off pumps has anyone rung where the bolts go in? One of mine won't tighten properly :fighting:
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On the subject off pumps has anyone rung where the bolts go in? One of mine won't tighten properly :fighting:
Yep i did that with mine.
Required a Helicoil fix :happy2:
Your obviously to harsh with the wrench like moi :laugh:
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No i think it's from all the checking over 65k lol. Might be no harm to grease bolts? Is the helicoil a big job or simple? where's the best place to get?
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Don't know where to get them mate.
JKM fixed it for me. :happy2:
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This was my understanding too i.e. that the stepped piston diameter could put pressure on the seal if there was fuel behind it on the return stroke of the piston. This could potentially cause the seal to fail. The words in italic are meant to mean that there is an element of chance/probability/luck involved in all this. Some folks have been fine up until now and it looks like you have been lucky so far, Micky. I guess I was not so lucky.
Again, perhaps JKMs pictures are better than words to explain the effect:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FMisc_Performance_pictures%2FAPR%2520Pump%2Ftech%2Fpumpimages%2FVisio1_big.jpg&hash=e77253550e0ff81516599bb7b51ee6db5e93b987)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FMisc_Performance_pictures%2FAPR%2520Pump%2Ftech%2Fpumpimages%2FVisio2_big.jpg&hash=9ce3513a6438f802e5bd9af712e1d3d5cd47b5c0)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FMisc_Performance_pictures%2FAPR%2520Pump%2Ftech%2Fpumpimages%2FVisio3_big.jpg&hash=2beab90bddc6c0739f1628863b6fe94cc74cc2ec)
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So if this is a genuine problem how much is an APR pump and is there a deal where you return you're old pump?
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Yes.
http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/tfsipumps.htm
You have to send your pump to them though. So unless you get your hands on another pump you will be without a car until it returns. They also can reject the pump if they find anything they don't like.
Your better off just buying the pump
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buy the APR pump, flog the autotech pump to recover some cash
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buy the APR pump, flog the autotech pump to recover some cash
That's if anyone will buy them after reading this thread :signLOL:
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Yeah was just thinking that but then the fact mine seems to not have that problem as it is well tested so to speak.
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buy the APR pump, flog the autotech pump to recover some cash
So anyone wanna buy a ****ed HPFP with Autotech internals? I have one coming up.....Now, dont all rush at once! :laugh:
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buy the APR pump, flog the autotech pump to recover some cash
So anyone wanna buy a ****ed HPFP with Autotech internals? I have one coming up.....Now, dont all rush at once! :laugh:
Or a well tested one that doesn't leak :P
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Yeah was just thinking that but then the fact mine seems to not have that problem as it is well tested so to speak.
Kiss of death.
Im taking bets now for how long until we have a "My Autotech Pump failed" by "Mickey 32" :laugh: :booty:
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Yeah was just thinking that but then the fact mine seems to not have that problem as it is well tested so to speak.
Kiss of death.
Im taking bets now for how long until we have a "My Autotech Pump failed" by "Mickey 32" :laugh: :booty:
Not if i fit an APR first :P
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Yeah was just thinking that but then the fact mine seems to not have that problem as it is well tested so to speak.
Kiss of death.
Im taking bets now for how long until we have a "My Autotech Pump failed" by "Mickey 32" :laugh: :booty:
:laugh: Well, you never know - we've heard of 'the luck of the Irish', maybe Micky's will keep hanging in there
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Not if i fit an APR first :P
Coward :P
Be a man and wait for it to fail first :evilgrin:
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The only thing is just have to keep a good eye on it.
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Yeah was just thinking that but then the fact mine seems to not have that problem as it is well tested so to speak.
Kiss of death.
Im taking bets now for how long until we have a "My Autotech Pump failed" by "Mickey 32" :laugh: :booty:
:laugh: Well, you never know - we've heard of 'the luck of the Irish', maybe Micky's will keep hanging in there
Have to say i have been lucky as in that i haven't broken anything yet that i modded over the years :laugh: :scared:
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Have to say i have been lucky as in that i haven't broken anything yet that i modded over the years :laugh: :scared:
Yup, that's what I said....up until last week :ashamed:
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A wise man (My dad :laugh:) once said to me "Son, buy cheap you buy twice"
Don't you just hate it when your parents are right :ashamed: :sad1:
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Its got to be said. Autotech must have sold thousands of these by now, so if they cause that much trouble, wouldnt have this been well documented by now? Of the two or so that have failed, might it not have been a fault in the oem pump altogether, whether or not the internals had been changed or not?
If it was the Revo demo car that had failed, I'm sure the majority of people who have one of these pumps, wont have put it through the ravages that the Revo demo car would have had, which I would assume would have been constantly thrashed?
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Can't imagine seeing an APR pump on a Revo car... :scared:
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Can't imagine seeing an APR pump on a Revo car... :scared:
:signLOL:
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revo pulled theapr sticker off :grin:
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I put the APR sticker on my pump :grin:
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I put the APR sticker on my pump :grin:
Thats the clever man's solution. It's not the piston.....it's the Sticker :signLOL:
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I just want to take my hat off to muckipup for actually sharing his experiences with other members on the open forum and possibly stopping someone else ending up the same way.
Sadly he hasnt been the first, not by a long shot, but for some reason other members decided to stay stumm on their problems which sorta isnt in the spirit of the forums imo, but oh well.
For more info checkout the yank forums, they have a few threads about fuel getting into the oil via the hpfp seals.
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I just want to take my hat off to muckipup for actually sharing his experiences with other members on the open forum and possibly stopping someone else ending up the same way.
Sadly he hasnt been the first, not by a long shot, but for some reason other members decided to stay stumm on their problems which sorta isnt in the spirit of the forums imo, but oh well.
For more info checkout the yank forums, they have a few threads about fuel getting into the oil via the hpfp seals.
I appreciate that, Poverty as sharing my experience and raising awareness is all that was intended by this thread. Other forums show that this is a sensitive subject and I was in two minds about posting myself!
My only recommendation was to suggest folks have a sniff at their dipstick once in a while as it only takes a few seconds and it is quite easy for the nose to detect the difference between oil and fuel....very easy in my case! :surprised:
On saying that, I know that I am not alone and, let's just say, I have had a few PMs.
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How many miles should you check your cam follower after installing the Autotech HPFP?? Also is there a block/blocks you can log on VAGCOM that would show up weakness in the fuel system?
I have been running my Autotech stage 2+ for around 15k miles now and have not checked my cam follower yet. A new cam follower was installed at the same time as the HPFP. Car is still going strong tho.
Thanks
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Check it. I check mine annually or ever 5-6 k miles
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Check it. I check mine annually or ever 5-6 k miles
When you check it do you just replace it for a new cam follower just for all the effort?
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I change mine yes, just for peace of mind.
Effort? Takes me all of 5 minutes to remove the pump