MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Janner_Sy on January 02, 2011, 07:02:13 pm
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well its come to note over the last few weeks that there are people experiencing issues with stage 2+ and uprated fuel pump internals.
Mainly the faults seem to be a result of the fuel pump seal failing under pressure due to the stepped design on the pistons. This means the oil and petrol can mix in your engine which is obviously not good.
From what I gather APR HPFPs dont suffer from this as they uprate this seal, and dont use a stepped piston. Also they are all tested prior to being distributed.
Forum rumour has it that this seal led to REVOs own demo leon ruining an engine, and there are numerous other guys across the forums with the uprated internals that luckily have caught the failed pump before it went really wrong.
if you could all state the type of internals you have used ie KMD, Autotech etc, and whether it was fitted by yourself or a specialist.
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i had my autotech HPFP internals fitted 10k, done by AMD essex. now being used on CupraK1s motor. not heard of any issues since.
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Autotech Internals fitted at TTS Roadsport and so far have covered 8k with no known problems.
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APR rebuild my extra pump, and been running it for 40.000km, no problems :happy2:
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No issues with my APR pump... :smiley:
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I ran mine for over 20k and suspected a failure prior to selling the car - I used KMD internals.
Was planning to fix and sell the pump, but putting it to APR to be converted instead.
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Ive had over 5 KMD internals seize, destroying followers, pump housings and cams. We dont touch them now. Also had 1 or 2 autotechs seize. Never had an issue with an APR pump. With the KMD/AT pumps, they use the standard spring and never seem to be able to hold full fuel pressure even on fuel 9 on Revo. APR pumps always can.
Ive been running APR for around 6-8K now.
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KMD internals seem to have seizure failures all the time from reading across the forums. Not heard of any recent seizure problems with Autotech though, were the seizures you experienced with the older revision pumps - i.e. v1s?
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alex did the autotech pumps seize or was it seal related?
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40K+ on KMD internals for me with no problems :happy2:
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No issues with my APR pump 10k now :smiley:
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53K on Autotech.
Changed to APR
724 miles on APR - No probs so far :laugh:
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20k+ miles on my Autotech internal kit with no problems.
Have sold 60+ Autotech kits in 2010 and not had 1 back under warranty, have fitted probably more than 100 kits over the years, again not one warranty issue. In this time we have had 5-6 cars come in with failed original fuel pumps/pump components on 100% standard cars.
The problem seems to be the actual seal not the internals, and again, only when the software demands a higher pressure.
So seal+software is the problem, the pump internals themselfes are just a stepping stone. Regardless, as a UK distributor of Autotech parts I am today sending them an email, I will update you with their response :happy2:
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20k+ miles on my Autotech internal kit with no problems.
Have sold 60+ Autotech kits in 2010 and not had 1 back under warranty, have fitted probably more than 100 kits over the years, again not one warranty issue. In this time we have had 5-6 cars come in with failed original fuel pumps/pump components on 100% standard cars.
The problem seems to be the actual seal not the internals, and again, only when the software demands a higher pressure.
So seal+software is the problem, the pump internals themselfes are just a stepping stone. Regardless, as a UK distributor of Autotech parts I am today sending them an email, I will update you with their response :happy2:
Thanks Dave, I also sent Autotech an email yesterday asking for their thoughts on this.
With regard to the OEM seal and the sw requesting too much fuel pressure as far as I know all 2+ maps request 130 bar. One thing which crossed my mind is that maybe the RS4 valve could make this issue more likely to happen as this will allow the pump pressure to go up to 136 bar.
As you said above I think people need to bear in mind how many pump internals have been fine for 10s of thousands of miles versus the number that have failed. I bet in reality the failure percentage is less than 1%.
What is of interest to me is for the pumps with seals that have failed I would like to know a few things:
1. What SW were they running and for how many miles?
2. How were the internals installed?
3. How has the car been driven?
4. How many miles did the pump have on it before the internals were installed?
On a separate note I would like to know if the spring engergised seal (the failing seal) can be replaced? There does not seem to be VAG part number for it but it does not mean it can't be done. Perhaps this is something you could look into and maybe offer as a service?
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I bought my Autotech second hand, i have done 65k with no probs.
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The part number for the 1.5" O ring that goes over the hpfp assembly is 06E 127 248 . :smiley:
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These were on really early AT pumps. Ive not seen any seals going so far on any pumps.
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The part number for the 1.5" O ring that goes over the hpfp assembly is 06E 127 248 . :smiley:
So is the part number for the spring energised seal?
These were on really early AT pumps.
Yes the early V1 pumps did have some problems with seizures but I have heard of no seizures at all from the V2s onwards
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The part number for the 1.5" O ring that goes over the hpfp assembly is 06E 127 248 . :smiley:
So is the part number for the spring energised seal?
I don't think so - I believe that is the O-ring that seals the entire HPFP too the engine whereas it is a seal internal to the HPFP causing an occasional problem.
I did about 15-20k on Autotech internals but you may know my story from another thread, my car is currently stranded down at JKM after failure of this OEM seal with Autotech internals and awaiting an APR pump to arrive in stock. :sad1:
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I've just put this in the other thread but i'll put it here too just for anyone who hasn't seen the other thread.
I don't think it's a failure of the seal per se.
My understanding is that due to the stepped design in the piston fuel gets in behind that step (due the the lubrication using fuel). Once the piston is on it's return stroke it is trying to compress the fuel. Liquid can't be compressed so the fuel has to go somewhere and it will inevitably choose the path of least resistance. Which in this case is past the seal.
So rather than the seal failing. It is being asked to do something it wasn't designed to, due to the step in the piston. So if Autotech re-designed the piston to be one diameter it's length then, in theory, this would solve the problem.
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So rather than the seal failing. It is being asked to do something it wasn't designed to, due to the step in the piston. So if Autotech re-designed the piston to be one diameter it's length then, in theory, this would solve the problem.
Yup, agree there - it wasn't designed for that. On saying that, the seal failed in mine however you look at it.
I believe APR swap out this OEM seal as part of their rebuild (and have a uniform piston diameter). I say that with caution as I am not some kind of APR fanboy, just conveying the info :wink:
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I did around 20K on the Autotech internals with no problems at all, including around 8k with the RS4 valve. No issues with the cam follower either. :happy2:
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19k on my Autotech internals with no problems (touch wood).. Even checked the oil (and had a sniff) the other day and all is well.. :happy2:
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The problem seems to be the actual seal not the internals, and again, only when the software demands a higher pressure.
So seal+software is the problem, the pump internals themselfes are just a stepping stone. Regardless, as a UK distributor of Autotech parts I am today sending them an email, I will update you with their response :happy2:
My experience backs your point up although I would caveat it by saying it is seal+software+the stepped piston Autotech internals might lead to a problem. Many others have been lucky, I wasn't.
I may have had an inherently weak OEM seal. I ran the Autotech internals for 15-20k without a problem. However, my software requested relatively low rail pressures below 5000rpm at that time. I did a K04 conversion, changed software to something that requested 130 bar across the board and at some point within 2 weeks had a failed seal with very apparent fuel to oil contamination.
To be honest, the contribution of the seal vs. the software vs. the Autotech internals is perhaps a bit academic to me. I needed the software to request the 130 bar of fuel rail pressure for Stage 2+ or Stage 3 performance, which it definitely did... and the point to an uprated HPFP is, of course, to deliver the 130bar!! It is therefore difficult for me to separate these two.
I absolutely love the performance of the car at the moment so, if the OEM seal failed, I guess it's just the price I have to pay! I can't compromise on the software and ask for lower rail pressure with everything I have invested to get to Stage 2+ and then Stage 3. The only variables are therefore the HPFP stepped internals and the seal - for this reason, my only option is to get the APR pump which deals with both variables. This is despite having nothing against Autotech (it was my first choice after all) - it just didn't work out for me :sad1:.
The other possibility of getting a whole new OEM pump and re-fitting the internals in the hope that the seal will hold just doesn't make sense.
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does the OEM piston have the same "stepped" design as that of the Autotech version?
Someone said the APR is solid piece and has no stepped design...so is there a reason why its "stepped" in the first place?
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does the OEM piston have the same "stepped" design as that of the Autotech version?
Someone said the APR is solid piece and has no stepped design...so is there a reason why its "stepped" in the first place?
The OEM pump does not use a stepped piston.
The APR pump does not use a stepped piston, it uses a piston with increased diameter. As the piston is a larger diameter than OEM it means APR also needs to provide new seals as the OEM seals will not fit with the larger diameter piston.
The Autotech pump uses a stepped piston. This means they can increase the diameter of the piston and still use the OEM seals.
Increasing the diameter of the piston is what allows the pump to deliver more fuel to meet the higher rail pressures.
I think both solutions have their advantages and disadvantages and and what needs to be confirmed is if a stepped piston design really does increase the chance of a seal failure.
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The problem seems to be the actual seal not the internals, and again, only when the software demands a higher pressure.
So seal+software is the problem, the pump internals themselfes are just a stepping stone. Regardless, as a UK distributor of Autotech parts I am today sending them an email, I will update you with their response :happy2:
My experience backs your point up although I would caveat it by saying it is seal+software+the stepped piston Autotech internals might lead to a problem. Many others have been lucky, I wasn't.
I may have had an inherently weak OEM seal. I ran the Autotech internals for 15-20k without a problem. However, my software requested relatively low rail pressures below 5000rpm at that time. I did a K04 conversion, changed software to something that requested 130 bar across the board and at some point within 2 weeks had a failed seal with very apparent fuel to oil contamination.
To be honest, the contribution of the seal vs. the software vs. the Autotech internals is perhaps a bit academic to me. I needed the software to request the 130 bar of fuel rail pressure for Stage 2+ or Stage 3 performance, which it definitely did... and the point to an uprated HPFP is, of course, to deliver the 130bar!! It is therefore difficult for me to separate these two.
I absolutely love the performance of the car at the moment so, if the OEM seal failed, I guess it's just the price I have to pay! I can't compromise on the software and ask for lower rail pressure with everything I have invested to get to Stage 2+ and then Stage 3. The only variables are therefore the HPFP stepped internals and the seal - for this reason, my only option is to get the APR pump which deals with both variables. This is despite having nothing against Autotech (it was my first choice after all) - it just didn't work out for me :sad1:.
The other possibility of getting a whole new OEM pump and re-fitting the internals in the hope that the seal will hold just doesn't make sense.
Well, after a slight delay for the APR to arrive, it is now fitted so I'll see how I get on. I have to admit, the cost of the pump plus an oil/filter change 2 weeks after a service when it was already done was a bit painful but something I had to 'take on the chin'!
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Glad to hear you are back up and running Dave :happy2:
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Glad to hear you are back up and running Dave :happy2:
Me too, Ian...I have been driving SWMBO's Y-reg Focus 2 litre where I think a 'few horses have died' over the years :sick:. Building up enough speed on A3 slip roads was a drama! A bit off topic but I swear I was in more tricky situations and at the mercy of more pi$$-takers on the road in the 10 days that I had that car through lack of power than I have been in the entire time I have had a sooped-up VRS!
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good to here dave. Lets hope it all stays trouble free for you now.
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i bumped into revo carl at autosport, car was running a kmd and had its issue at 40k, def not running autotech
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I've been running an APR on K03 Revo stage 2 for nearly 3,000 miles so far. The "failure trends" as this thread's title plus a car I know of which was wrecked by a fire caused by an Autotech HPFP failure is enough for me not to even want to consider the option of Autotech internals.
A friend on here who is an ex-VW Techie/Mechie has bought a brand new OEM pump to put new Autotech internals in - That seems to be a better option, unless you buy the APR. It's unfortunate that the APR costs so much but I have peace of mind.
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Maybe I don't fully understand the problem (I'm far from technically minded) but why don't Autotech slope the end of the piston instead of having a step?
If the failure is due to fuel getting under the step and being pushed past the pump seal into the oil wouldn't that stop the problem?
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APR rebuild pump for 70.000km without a hickup :notworthy:
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When I spoke to Jabbasport, I asked about Autotech pump failures and they told me that they had fitted plenty of them in last 18-24 months with none failing thus far.
Am considering getting them fitted to my stage 2 ED30, might go new pump and internals for belt n braces, APR HPFP is not on my radar :happy2:
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only issues with the autotech i thought had been down to incompetent people fitting them.
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only issues with the autotech i thought had been down to incompetent people fitting them.
:scared: :scared:
I fitted mine :grin:
40k miles and no issues thus far!
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I have sold over 350 sets accross europe and never had 1 back with a failure.
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I have sold over 350 sets accross europe and never had 1 back with a failure.
....A more meaningful perspective would be to know a total of how many sets that Autotech have manufactured/sold.
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Im running Autotech internals since January 2012 and installed by myself in my original fuel pump. No issues so far. It would seem they are the choice for the Stertman Motorsport with their Golf R
https://www.facebook.com/stertmanmotorsport#!/media/set/?set=a.254346344629152.65264.159237737473347&type=1 (https://www.facebook.com/stertmanmotorsport#!/media/set/?set=a.254346344629152.65264.159237737473347&type=1)
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I have sold over 350 sets accross europe and never had 1 back with a failure.
....A more meaningful perspective would be to know a total of how many sets that Autotech have manufactured/sold.
PDT's data set would probably work out as being mathematically significant when testing the null hypothesis that Autotech internals don't fail.
there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that suggests failures are due to improper install, combined with the old design which i believe has been updated since?
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Hi guys!
Just so you know, There are 2 types of Autotech out there...
1st Generation Autotech internals do not have serial codes nor Autotech logo but they are the ones known to seize. (Happened to my Leon last year...and recently discovered that my cam lobe is more or less knackered...)
Currently using the 2nd Gen internals, difference being that they have the logo & serial number but they said the 2nd gen internals have better protective coating and less likely to break unlike the older designs.
Surprisingly my 1st gen internals ran without fault for almost 40k+ and so far my 2nd gen internals are currently on 20k+ (roughly...touchwood!)
Once I get enough cash together, may just swap for APR. (Not sure when though!)
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How much do apr charge to rebuild a pump then?
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How much do apr charge to rebuild a pump then?
£478
http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html
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How much do apr charge to rebuild a pump then?
£478
http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html
The proviso here is your hpfp must be in good condition when you send it to APR.
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How much do apr charge to rebuild a pump then?
£478
http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html
The proviso here is your hpfp must be in good condition when you send it to APR.
So they rebuild a OEM fuel pump up to APR uprated spec?
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How much do apr charge to rebuild a pump then?
£478
http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html
The proviso here is your hpfp must be in good condition when you send it to APR.
So they rebuild a OEM fuel pump up to APR uprated spec?
yeah basically
this is the Autotech argument - that APR are basically doing what anyone else does when fitting an Autotech, they're just charging over the odds for the privilege. they claim to test them, but i read somewhere once that the testing procedure is woefully inadequate, and well below the pressures that are attained in a car.
yes, they uprate the spring and the pump seal but i don't think that commands 2x-3x the price personally. i reckon there's enough evidence out there that the Autotechs are highly unlikely to fail (if installed properly and the latest version).
it's an exchange programme, so you give them your old pump and get another pump back with APR internals (provided that yours is good). historically it had to go off to APR in the USA (tho i don't think that's the case anymore)
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Do they give any sort of gaurantee with these?
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I have sold over 350 sets accross europe and never had 1 back with a failure.
....A more meaningful perspective would be to know a total of how many sets that Autotech have manufactured/sold.
PDT's data set would probably work out as being mathematically significant when testing the null hypothesis that Autotech internals don't fail.
this is a lot of anecdotal evidence that suggests failures are due to improper install, combined with the old design which i believe has been updated since?
You don't have SPSS software by any chance do you Sub?
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Nope. Only needed it once in uni so used it there. How comes?
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My autotech has now close to 100k and no issues. I bought it second hand and quite sure it's a first generation. I let a friend who's a VW mechanic fit it.. Could be down to installation that are causing problems.
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Nope. Only needed it once in uni so used it there. How comes?
You seem to have a bit of a handle on the old statistical lingo! I used it extensively in my Psychology degree, MANOVA's ANOVA's ANCOVA's etc etc. I need to find someone with a licence, as my student copy ran out 3 years ago.
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lol i just make it up as i go along.
i can't be any help with the SPSS i'm afraid