MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: muckipup on January 05, 2011, 12:13:25 am
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As the title suggests, I am after a bit of advice, particularly from those who have first hand experience of Quaife, Peloquin or other LSDs.
Firstly, I have no doubt that they are of value but those who seem to have the biggest praise are those involved in track days or very spirited road driving. Whereas, I may have been involved in the latter on a few occasions, I don't, as yet, do track days.
Can anyone give advice as to whether a Quaife is really worth the money for someone who doesn't do track days but is running about 320 bhp through the front wheels but mainly uses this on the straight and narrow despite the occasional blast through the 30 miles or so of semi-rural and windey roads on my daily commute. The car will wheelspin in 4th even on the straight and narrows.
My dilemna is this - my car is currently in the 'shop' getting something else fixed. The clutch is currently fine but a recent K04 conversion means that the OEM clutch will give up in the near future. Now the problem is that the K04 conversion, Xmas and the current visit to 'the shop' has meant that spare cash is a bit of an issue.
The Quaife is about £1100 all in; a Sachs clutch and DMF is about the same; fitting cost is about the same if I do one, the other or both together but still relatively low compared to the hardware. I can afford the cost of the clutch but the Quaife would be on my flexible friend (which I like to avoid doing unless necessary)
I have heard loads of good things about LSDs/ATBs but also that they can be snatchy when coming out of a corner, that they can torque steer you into the hedge, make the steering stiffer due to the bias to centre, etc.
My questions are therefore:
Is a Quaife really worth the money given the type of relatively 'normal' (ahem :ashamed:) driving that I do and possible side-effects?
Should I forget about it?
Should I do it but leave it until the clutch goes?
RedRobin gave some great advice when I met him at a recent rolling road day but I'd appreciate the views from others as I have never personally driven a car with a more recent LSD :happy2:
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I would say if you are mainly in to your straight line blasts, and normal but fast driving you arnt going to reap major benifits from the diff, but if you do like track driving and powering out of corners the LSD is probably one of the best mods you can do !
How do you feel the car is just now with out the diff? Are you happy with it ? Can you live with with the 1 wheel drive powering out of corners ?. If I'm honest I didn't think the golf needed the diff as much as other cars I've been in , then again I never had as much power as you .
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Certainly a diff is going to be of greater benefit on things like track days but if you are in the habit of enjoying roundabouts and bends enthusiastically on the road (as I am) when circumstances allow, then it's also going to be of benefit. Afterall, your car doesn't know whether it's being driven on a road or a track and doesn't differentiate. It's also going to help when your car is more highly tuned with more power trying to be being efficiently transferred to the road/track surface. However, it's not 4WD or quattro.
BUT... It's like nearly all aftermarket mods: You don't really need any of them! And to make matters worse, most performance mods work at their best when included as part of a bigger package. So, the diff has a part to play in the suspension... Very slippery slope!
It's a bit like big brakes: Better to have them and not always need them than need them and not have them, even just once!
If nothing else, a diff can increase your confidence in your car's handling. I find it extremely satisfying to apply power earlier in the corner and feel the diff looking after me. But I'm a bit weird.
I suppose it says something that VW decided to include an 'electronic' diff in the Mk6. I much prefer the more direct mechanical feel but that's me - I've compromised my car for the sake of tactile enjoyment and it's no longer just a 'family car'.
It's not cheap and it's not suitable cogwear-wise for selling later, so it's a commitment and only worth it if keeping the car a while. Ultimately only you can decide but if you do get one it'll probably encourage you to drive 'harder'. I so rarely get wheelspin and if I do see that icon displayed it's gone in one blink of the eye.
I've only experienced the Quaife so can't comment meaningfully on the alternatives. HTH :evilgrin:
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I have heard loads of good things about LSDs/ATBs but also that they can be snatchy when coming out of a corner, that they can torque steer you into the hedge, make the steering stiffer due to the bias to centre, etc.
You wish :P
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The XDS in the MK6 is the same as the EDL in the MK5. Both are sh*te.
Ive always run Peloquins diffs in my cars and they are a great benifit. Well worth the money. They do help in a straight line too by equaling the power to both wheels, but its the corners that you will feel the main difference. The diff will pull you round the corner on power, but you still have to have good throttle control as once you fully break traction you will still go straight on.
The high torque peloquins diff I have fitted to my vRS feels much stronger and more responsive than any of the quaifes ive tried before.
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How do you feel the car is just now with out the diff? Are you happy with it ? Can you live with with the 1 wheel drive powering out of corners ?. If I'm honest I didn't think the golf needed the diff as much as other cars I've been in , then again I never had as much power as you .
Certainly a diff is going to be of greater benefit on things like track days but if you are in the habit of enjoying roundabouts and bends enthusiastically on the road (as I am) when circumstances allow, then it's also going to be of benefit.
They do help in a straight line too by equaling the power to both wheels, but its the corners that you will feel the main difference. The diff will pull you round the corner on power, but you still have to have good throttle control as once you fully break traction you will still go straight on.
Many thanks chaps!
To be honest, I am very happy with the car otherwise and the power is fantastic. The suspension set-up (Koni FSD and stock springs) may not suit others but it is the right balance of comfort vs. handling when combined with an Eibach RARB for my daily commute along those twisty roads. I do like approaching the bends and roundabouts enthusiastically when I can; traction is a bit of an issue but I found that the car's set-up towards the understeer side of neutral gives me plenty of warning. Similarly, traction in straight lines is now more of an issue with the K04 as you'd expect - the TCS light is like a christmas tree especially in the damp.
Anything that I can do to improve straight line traction would be a big plus for me although the big benefit of increased traction in the corners is somewhat diluted if there is absolutely no 'understeer warning' before the car breaks away and I end up in the field thinking 'what happened?' :grin:
What would you consider safer a bit of understeer warning and ability to react or traction to pull through it?
I am just struggling with the cost vs. benefit vs. risk balance as you may have guessed :confused:
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will say this time and time again wish i would have done the diff first instead of messing with other bits :rolleye: but oh well.
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will say this time and time again wish i would have done the diff first instead of messing with other bits :rolleye: but oh well.
Is that as a trach day driver or road driver, Matt? Also, given your experience - What would you consider safer a bit of understeer warning and ability to react or less/little/no warning but the traction to pull through a corner?
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understeer are built into most FWD roadcars for safetyreasons so that's better than power.
I really miss my LSD and are looking forward to getting it on the car again. it so much easier to control the power when an LSD fitted, well worth the cost IMO.
That said, you haven't mentioned what tyres you are running, for the type of driving you describe some Toyo R1R would help with the wheelspin, tyres is your first priority IMO :happy2:
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Thanks Danish,
When you had the LSD did it remove all understeer or was there still enough there to give you a 'feel' for the road and some warning of when the car might break away?
You are right about the tyres - I have summer tyres on the car at the moment and they have been terrible! Tyres are on my 'to do' list.
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You will still get understeer, but you now have the ability to use the power to pull the car round the corner. You do have to change your driving style and it will take you a while to get used to the diff when using the power when you usually wouldnt be able to.
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Totally agree with the tyres point - the LSD is pointless if u run crap tyres IMO
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You will still get understeer, but you now have the ability to use the power to pull the car round the corner. You do have to change your driving style and it will take you a while to get used to the diff when using the power when you usually wouldnt be able to.
Thanks Alex - just out of curiosity, did you have a UK source for the Peloquin diffs?
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You will still get understeer, but you now have the ability to use the power to pull the car round the corner. You do have to change your driving style and it will take you a while to get used to the diff when using the power when you usually wouldnt be able to.
Thanks Alex - just out of curiosity, did you have a UK source for the Peloquin diffs?
It just so happens that Backdraft Motorsport are Peloquin agents. :laugh:
http://www.backdraftmotorsport.com/shop-vag-2.0tfsi/atb-differential-for-2.0-tfsi-6-speed-maual-02q/flypage.tpl.html
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Just out of curiosity (not about to change from my Quaife), do Peloquin offer a DSG version yet?
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You will still get understeer, but you now have the ability to use the power to pull the car round the corner. You do have to change your driving style and it will take you a while to get used to the diff when using the power when you usually wouldnt be able to.
Thanks Alex - just out of curiosity, did you have a UK source for the Peloquin diffs?
It just so happens that Backdraft Motorsport are Peloquin agents. :laugh:
http://www.backdraftmotorsport.com/shop-vag-2.0tfsi/atb-differential-for-2.0-tfsi-6-speed-maual-02q/flypage.tpl.html
Silly me - should have checked that! :chicken:
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Just out of curiosity (not about to change from my Quaife), do Peloquin offer a DSG version yet?
Yes they do. 2wd and 4wd.
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I had a Quaife fitted.
It is a great mod, however Quaife have an excellent and very strong reputation, and this led to a very round the houses diagnosis to a diff problem (it was basically clunking when taking the drive up)
Happy with the reputation, but a Flywheel, engine mounts (full set) were changed under a VW warranty (good service manager) before their agent decided to give my diagnosis a bit of credence............. No great diagnosis, just the clunk was there as soon as they had fitted the diff!
Had a few other problems along the way, caused by a shoddy refit of the gearbox. (good job I know how to repair looms)
New diff fitted, and all was sorted!
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if straight line is your tracton and your lightly wary of getting over steer then i reckon your best bet is to get some top end tyres. By top end im thinking the new R1R or these new Michelin supersport tyres when they are released. This is initially cheaper but over a few years and miles they will need replacing more often. For ultimate tyre grip mileage has to be sacrificed.
the problem is though tyres are a consumable, if you could get an LSD and then go for a slightly less extreme tyre like the PS2, eagle F1 and have a similar amount of grip. this will be more initially expensive, but you consumables will not need changing so often. so in the long run i think this is the sensible option
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the problem is though tyres are a consumable, if you could get an LSD and then go for a slightly less extreme tyre like the PS2, eagle F1 and have a similar amount of grip. this will be more initially expensive, but you consumables will not need changing so often. so in the long run i think this is the sensible option
....That's interesting and something I hadn't thought about. My tyres (GY and Dunlop Asymmetrics) seem to be lasting longer and I couldn't understand why.
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the problem is though tyres are a consumable, if you could get an LSD and then go for a slightly less extreme tyre like the PS2, eagle F1 and have a similar amount of grip. this will be more initially expensive, but you consumables will not need changing so often. so in the long run i think this is the sensible option
....That's interesting and something I hadn't thought about. My tyres (GY and Dunlop Asymmetrics) seem to be lasting longer and I couldn't understand why.
RR i think that Janner refers to soft tyres without LSD will need replacing more often than harder tyres and LSD, not as the LSD makes your tyres last longer.
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the problem is though tyres are a consumable, if you could get an LSD and then go for a slightly less extreme tyre like the PS2, eagle F1 and have a similar amount of grip. this will be more initially expensive, but you consumables will not need changing so often. so in the long run i think this is the sensible option
....That's interesting and something I hadn't thought about. My tyres (GY and Dunlop Asymmetrics) seem to be lasting longer and I couldn't understand why.
RR i think that Janner refers to soft tyres without LSD will need replacing more often than harder tyres and LSD, not as the LSD makes your tyres last longer.
coorect. soft compount ulrqa high performance tyres such as the toyo R1R would give very good grip, but wouldnt last that long. Using an LSD and a slightly harder compound tyre, you could get similar grip/traction levels but with cheaper tyres that will last longer
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I have decided to go for the LSD when time and finances allow - my commute with all its twists and some tight twists in dips cries out for a LSD and I am reassured that the LSD does not remove all the understeer/feel for traction. It is still very much a 'luxury' item for me though.
What I have been very surprised about is the difference in prices between UK distributors of Peloquin or Quaife ATBs and particularly the difference compared to USA prices. Also, where a Quaife may be more expensive in the UK than Peloquin, a look at APTuning.com in the USA shows Quaife to be cheaper. I don't get that given that Peloquin are US and Quaife are UK :confused: I will probably visit the US in the next few months and have an engineer friend over there who regularly comes to the UK so I may chance it.
the problem is though tyres are a consumable, if you could get an LSD and then go for a slightly less extreme tyre like the PS2, eagle F1 and have a similar amount of grip. this will be more initially expensive, but you consumables will not need changing so often. so in the long run i think this is the sensible option
That's a very fair point, Sy. It is certainly the sensible option for me as I do a 60 mile round trip each working day and a fair bit at weekends - I'd be changing tyres like my underwear (i.e. once a month :grin: ) if I went for the extreme performance options. I have also decided that I will be doing the summer tyre / winter tyre thing given recent experience with say PS3s or Sessantas and Wintracs. The latter may not be a performance thing but I value keeping the car on the road.
I currently have Vredestein Ultrac Centos on the car which are very much summer tyres imho - they were a bit 'lollopy' and non-confidence inspiring until I put a few more psi in them but they have soft sidewalls to accomodate some 2012 EU tyre noise regulation. Unfortunately, like others, when the temperature went below about 5 celsius the rubber hardened up and became were uncompliant. Great summer tyres though and the grip may even beat the Sessantas despite still being a bit less confidence inspiring.
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I had a Wavetrac in mine and it was good, but i would advise against the outlay unless you absolutely want to rag the tits off it on a track.
Yes on a road it will help pull you out of a roundabout or corner on a dry day, but it will remove the steering on a wet day under hard accelaration at lower speeds in a lower gear when you lose traction. More than once I ended up on the other side of the road as a result of this happening when I first had it fitted. Yes you work around this, but its not all a bed of roses with an LSD.
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I had a Wavetrac in mine and it was good, but i would advise against the outlay unless you absolutely want to rag the tits off it on a track.
Yes on a road it will help pull you out of a roundabout or corner on a dry day, but it will remove the steering on a wet day under hard accelaration at lower speeds in a lower gear when you lose traction. More than once I ended up on the other side of the road as a result of this happening when I first had it fitted. Yes you work around this, but its not all a bed of roses with an LSD.
I have to say that it is a great addition to a road car for road use. I believe the Wavetrack to be quite a harsh diff and takes alot to get used to it. In the wet you do have to have good throttle control, but once mastered you will have loads of fun.
Dont forget to factor in that the Quaife doesnt come with bolts or bearings which can add another £100 or so onto the price. Peloqions comes with ARP bolts and bearings. PM me for a quote on a Peloquins if you want.
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From the experience I have (driven cars with Quaiffe, Peolquin and Wavetrac), the Wavetrac is the most superior of the three based on snatchiness/harshness. In addition, the technology behind it appears to be the most advanced (good information on their website).
I agree you have to master the LSD, and I did, but you have to be careful too - worst case on an open diff is wheelspin. Limited Slip Diff when it does let go will have the car continue in the direction momentum was taking it before it broke traction in my experience (hence why you need to master it :smiley:)
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I had a Wavetrac in mine and it was good, but i would advise against the outlay unless you absolutely want to rag the tits off it on a track.
Yes on a road it will help pull you out of a roundabout or corner on a dry day, but it will remove the steering on a wet day under hard accelaration at lower speeds in a lower gear when you lose traction. More than once I ended up on the other side of the road as a result of this happening when I first had it fitted. Yes you work around this, but its not all a bed of roses with an LSD.
Ahhh, now this is the response that I was both expecting and worried about as it balances with the theory of how I thought and LSD might react going round a corner in the wet i.e. inside slipping in the wet, outside ok then LSD throws power to the outside, result of outside breaks traction and we're in the ditch on the far side of the corner :sad1: whereas the early understeer would have given warning, been easily controlled and allowed for a bit of easing off.
Dont forget to factor in that the Quaife doesnt come with bolts or bearings which can add another £100 or so onto the price. Peloqions comes with ARP bolts and bearings. PM me for a quote on a Peloquins if you want.
That's a fair point Alex, I forgot to add ARP bolts to the Quaife cost which stretches the UK price differential further.
...and thanks for the offer re. Peloquin. However, the post from djhorace has really got me thinking now. At 41 years old, I am hardly an inexperienced driver but would never pretend to have the skills of a racing driver! On saying that, it may be a bit academic as I never rag it around corners in the wet on public roads as I am aware of my limitations :scared:
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Don't get scared of a LSD, as everything else you need to learn it's quirks. At 41 you must have tried to master more than one of the female spieces; not being able to read the first one right hasn't put you off trying to understand the next right?? :wink: :laugh:
Just drive as the conditions allows. At an age of 42 i still try to learn more, within a fortnight i'm taking a course in winterdriving in the golf to learn more about it, just get cracking mate :wink:
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What you learn with an LSD is that the throttle is not an on/off switch :happy2:
I would sooner have four wheel drive though and am pretty annoyed with myself now for buying another car with the same set up as the last one.
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What you learn with an LSD is that the throttle is not an on/off switch :happy2:
I learned that very quickly with the K04 turbo! :laugh:
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Don't get scared of a LSD, as everything else you need to learn it's quirks. At 41 you must have tried to master more than one of the female spieces; not being able to read the first one right hasn't put you off trying to understand the next right?? :wink: :laugh:
You are not wrong there! Part of the concern over the cost of a LSD was because I am getting married (again!!!!) later this year :laugh: :stupid: :laugh:
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I'm on my second marriage and i still don't get them. They must be from another planet :laugh: :stupid:
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Don't get scared of a LSD, as everything else you need to learn it's quirks. At 41 you must have tried to master more than one of the female spieces; not being able to read the first one right hasn't put you off trying to understand the next right?? :wink: :laugh:
You are not wrong there! Part of the concern over the cost of a LSD was because I am getting married (again!!!!) later this year :laugh: :stupid: :laugh:
marriage is over rated compared to an LSD
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Don't get scared of a LSD, as everything else you need to learn it's quirks. At 41 you must have tried to master more than one of the female spieces; not being able to read the first one right hasn't put you off trying to understand the next right?? :wink: :laugh:
You are not wrong there! Part of the concern over the cost of a LSD was because I am getting married (again!!!!) later this year :laugh: :stupid: :laugh:
marriage is over rated compared to an LSD
So what you guys are saying is go for the LSD because it is easier to handle and will have lower long-term costs compared to a wife? :jumping:
I'll go home and break the news tonight :evilgrin:
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an LSD is a one time investment, a woman costs 60£ the first night, and all (they know) you earn the rest of your life :signLOL:
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£60 the first night. were not talking brothels :grin:
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the problem is though tyres are a consumable, if you could get an LSD and then go for a slightly less extreme tyre like the PS2, eagle F1 and have a similar amount of grip. this will be more initially expensive, but you consumables will not need changing so often. so in the long run i think this is the sensible option
....That's interesting and something I hadn't thought about. My tyres (GY and Dunlop Asymmetrics) seem to be lasting longer and I couldn't understand why.
RR i think that Janner refers to soft tyres without LSD will need replacing more often than harder tyres and LSD, not as the LSD makes your tyres last longer.
coorect. soft compount ulrqa high performance tyres such as the toyo R1R would give very good grip, but wouldnt last that long. Using an LSD and a slightly harder compound tyre, you could get similar grip/traction levels but with cheaper tyres that will last longer
....And that's how I understood it.
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£60 the first night. were not talking brothels :grin:
I'd be much cheaper going to one of those! :booty:
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I had a Quaife LSD on my old ED30 and it was an excellent modification - highly recommend it :happy2: